All-Time Cheaters Team

[Lucky Colts Fan]

I could use some suggestions for an all-time team of cheaters.  I consider dirty play to be cheating, but not off-the-field stuff, so good guys like Hines Ward are considered, but bad guys like Aaron Hernandez are not.

 

It's kind of scary to imagine all these guys in one organization.  This is what I have so far:

 

Owner: Al Davis

GM:

Coach:  Bill Belichick

Offensive Coordinator:

Defensive Coordinator: Greg Williams

 

QB:  Tom Brady

FB:

HB:

WR:  Fred Belitnikoff, Hines Ward

TE:

T:

G:  Conrad Dobler, Richie Incognito

C:  Dominic Raiola

DE:  Lyle Alzado, Deacon Jones

DT:  Ndamukong Suh, Albert Haynesworth

OLB:  Shawne Merriman,

MLB:  Bill Romanowski

DB:  Rodney Harrison, Jack Tatum, George Atkinson

K:

P:

[crazycolt1]

Al Davis? Fred Belitnikoff? Hines Ward? Sounds like you are not too clear on what cheating is.

[Lucky Colts Fan]

8 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Al Davis? Fred Belitnikoff? Hines Ward? Sounds like you are not too clear on what cheating is.

 

Hines Ward was known for some dirty hits, and I said I consider dirty play cheating.

 

Al Davis and Fred Belitnikoff were part of the cheating culture of the 70s Raiders.  I could have put even more of those Raiders on this list.

 

In my defense, it's a lot easier to come up with cheaters at certain positions (Linemen, DBs) than others (WR, K, P)  Ward and Belitnikoff might be reaches as far as being cheaters, because they didn't really break the rules like some guys at other positions.

 

It's hard to set a criteria too.  Doping is cheating, but substance abuse is just being dumb, so a guy like Merriman is a cheater, but a guy like Josh Gordon is just dumb.

[crazycolt1]

1 hour ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

Hines Ward was known for some dirty hits, and I said I consider dirty play cheating.

 

Al Davis and Fred Belitnikoff were part of the cheating culture of the 70s Raiders.  I could have put even more of those Raiders on this list.

 

In my defense, it's a lot easier to come up with cheaters at certain positions (Linemen, DBs) than others (WR, K, P)  Ward and Belitnikoff might be reaches as far as being cheaters, because they didn't really break the rules like some guys at other positions.

 

It's hard to set a criteria too.  Doping is cheating, but substance abuse is just being dumb, so a guy like Merriman is a cheater, but a guy like Josh Gordon is just dumb.

Al Davis was a lot of things in the NFL but cheater wasn't one of them. He was a pioneer in the NFL. He was an assistant coach, head coach, owner, general manager and commissioner of the AFL . The only person to hold all of those titles. He was the first owner to hire a black head coach and 2nd latino head coach. He was the first owner who refused to have his team separated by color in hotels and motels. Pushing rules and challenging the system is not cheating. Did he become eccentric in his old age? Yes. But he was not a cheater. He made the Raiders the team that most players wanted to play for because of their desire to just win.

[Lucky Colts Fan]

1 minute ago, crazycolt1 said:

Al Davis was a lot of things in the NFL but cheater wasn't one of them. He was a pioneer in the NFL. He was an assistant coach, head coach, owner, general manager and commissioner of the AFL . The only person to hold all of those titles. He was the first owner to hire a black head coach and 2nd latino head coach. He was the first owner who refused to have his team separated by color in hotels and motels. Pushing rules and challenging the system is not cheating. Did he become eccentric in his old age? Yes. But he was not a cheater. He made the Raiders the team that most players wanted to play for because of their desire to just win.

 

Alright, maybe he didn't cheat, but he certainly encouraged a culture of cheating on the field to win the game.  "Any means necessary" as he put it.

 

I could have chosen any number of owners that went over the salary cap, but Al Davis seemed like the logical choice.  He'd be the perfect owner for this (hypothetical) team.

[Colts_Fan12]

Just copy and paste any Patriots team from owner down to the ball boys 

[Jules]

I will save everyone the trouble.

 

Patriots

 

I know it's what everyone wants to say.

 

/thread

[ReMeDy]

Here's the thing: This thread is kind of opening up a can of worms, because anyone who says "person X" is a cheater will say "prove it" and then they have to dig up old articles to prove a point (if there even are any articles).

Furthermore, it's not just Deacon Jones. What about guys like Bob Sanders who would sacrifice their body for punishing hits? Nowadays, Bob would be getting fines like crazy, but back when he played, it was fine.

Meanwhile, what about stickum gloves? Jerry rice admitted to using it, so are we going to say arguably the greatest WR ever is a cheater? He says, “I’m going to be point blank, I feel like it’s cheating." So there you go TC, slap Jerry Rice on your list. I guess he deserves it.

[BullsColtsFan1]

On 6/19/2016 at 9:13 AM, Lucky Colts Fan said:

I could use some suggestions for an all-time team of cheaters.  I consider dirty play to be cheating, but not off-the-field stuff, so good guys like Hines Ward are considered, but bad guys like Aaron Hernandez are not.

 

It's kind of scary to imagine all these guys in one organization.  This is what I have so far:

 

Owner: Al Davis

GM:

Coach:  Bill Belichick

Offensive Coordinator:

Defensive Coordinator: Greg Williams

 

QB:  Tom Brady

FB:

HB:

WR:  Fred Belitnikoff, Hines Ward

TE:

T:

G:  Conrad Dobler, Richie Incognito

C:  Dominic Raiola

DE:  Lyle Alzado, Deacon Jones

DT:  Ndamukong Suh, Albert Haynesworth

OLB:  Shawne Merriman,

MLB:  Bill Romanowski

DB:  Rodney Harrison, Jack Tatum, George Atkinson

K:

P:

The bold name underlined should be on the NFL's all punk team too.

[2006Coltsbestever]

Where the hell is Trent Richardson at? This wouldn't be a complete thread without big bad Trent!

[Valpo2004]

I wouldn't consider dirty play and hits to be cheating.  

 

Thing to me about cheating is that I would define it as requiring 2 things.  

 

1. An attempt to gain advantage.  - This rules out Josh Gordon.  There is no question I think he's an idoit for choosing weed over millions of dollars.  But weed isn't gonna give him an advantage.  It would count if the drug was actually something that enhanced his performance such as steroids.  But I challenge you to find me a doctor who is going to put his professional reputation on the line by explaining how weed makes someone better at football.  

 

2. A clear attempt to hide your attempts at the first.  

 

Dirty hits and the like are more likely just a result of a loss of emotional control.  And while you could argue that they MIGHT give some advantage (highly questionable as they rarely result in injury and more often just make the other team angry.)

 

But also those things there is rarely any real attempt to hide them.  They happen on national TV.  The refs often spot them and even when they miss them the NFL doesn't and lays down fines and suspensions.

 

To me to be a cheater you have to be hiding what you are doing and be purposefully trying to gain advantage.

 

Tom Brady counts, Belichek counts, Greg Williams counts.  All those guys where trying to get advantages and made clear attempts to conceal their efforts.

 

Raiolia and Suh are just dirty players.  They don't count.  Very little advantage gained (overall mostly a disadvantage because they get hit with 15 yard penalties often enough)  No real attempt to conceal them.

 

Incognito doesn't count either.  He was bullying a member of his own team.  No question he's not a nice guy.  But that's not cheating.

 

I think for me there is a difference between breaking the rules and cheating.  Otherwise if every infraction against the rules was considered to be cheating then they are all cheaters.  Because anyone who's played for any length of time in the NFL has had a penalty called on them and if they havn't there are likely penalties they have committed but the refs missed.  Should every OL who's been called for holding be called a cheater?  What about every QB who intentionally grounded the ball?  Or every DB called for pass interference?

 

[crazycolt1]

36 minutes ago, Valpo2004 said:

I wouldn't consider dirty play and hits to be cheating.  

 

Thing to me about cheating is that I would define it as requiring 2 things.  

 

1. An attempt to gain advantage.  - This rules out Josh Gordon.  There is no question I think he's an idoit for choosing weed over millions of dollars.  But weed isn't gonna give him an advantage.  It would count if the drug was actually something that enhanced his performance such as steroids.  But I challenge you to find me a doctor who is going to put his professional reputation on the line by explaining how weed makes someone better at football.  

 

2. A clear attempt to hide your attempts at the first.  

 

Dirty hits and the like are more likely just a result of a loss of emotional control.  And while you could argue that they MIGHT give some advantage (highly questionable as they rarely result in injury and more often just make the other team angry.)

 

But also those things there is rarely any real attempt to hide them.  They happen on national TV.  The refs often spot them and even when they miss them the NFL doesn't and lays down fines and suspensions.

 

To me to be a cheater you have to be hiding what you are doing and be purposefully trying to gain advantage.

 

Tom Brady counts, Belichek counts, Greg Williams counts.  All those guys where trying to get advantages and made clear attempts to conceal their efforts.

 

Raiolia and Suh are just dirty players.  They don't count.  Very little advantage gained (overall mostly a disadvantage because they get hit with 15 yard penalties often enough)  No real attempt to conceal them.

 

Incognito doesn't count either.  He was bullying a member of his own team.  No question he's not a nice guy.  But that's not cheating.

 

I think for me there is a difference between breaking the rules and cheating.  Otherwise if every infraction against the rules was considered to be cheating then they are all cheaters.  Because anyone who's played for any length of time in the NFL has had a penalty called on them and if they havn't there are likely penalties they have committed but the refs missed.  Should every OL who's been called for holding be called a cheater?  What about every QB who intentionally grounded the ball?  Or every DB called for pass interference?

 

I agree. There is a big difference between cheating and just being bad or stupid. I seen where Robert Irsay was on someones list. I wasn't aware that being a bad owner counts as a cheater? Ray Lewis? His off field problems cant be related to cheating on the field. Even Al Davis who turned into an obsessed owner who had it in his mind the league had it in for him. I wouldn't call him a cheater. It seems the majority of these people are just not liked for some reason that really has nothing to do with cheating. I think the title of the thread is wrong.

[Valpo2004]

50 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

I agree. There is a big difference between cheating and just being bad or stupid. I seen where Robert Irsay was on someones list. I wasn't aware that being a bad owner counts as a cheater? Ray Lewis? His off field problems cant be related to cheating on the field. Even Al Davis who turned into an obsessed owner who had it in his mind the league had it in for him. I wouldn't call him a cheater. It seems the majority of these people are just not liked for some reason that really has nothing to do with cheating. I think the title of the thread is wrong.

 

I think you are confusing the Irsay thing with the hall of shame.  In there he might fit because of his drug problems.  But certainly wouldn't fit in this list.

 

I should also note that the reason for my #2 rational behind what counts as cheating is that is something that seperates it from mistakes.  For example the Jets got punished for saying that they would love to have Revis back while he was still on contract with the Patriots.  While this might have given them some advantage, I would argue it doesn't (likely) constitute cheating because it was said in such a public way that it's just more likely the person making the statement just made a mistake, an undisciplined statement.  I'm not opposed to them being punished for that but it's not likely cheating.  

 

Covering it up shows that one has the rational presence of mind to know that many would consider this a violation of the rules or at the very least bending the rules and try to punish you for it if they found out.  

 

But I find it difficult to call it cheating when anyone who's tuned into the right interview or the right game can catch you in the act.  And since the NFL can and does review these interviews and games played there is no way the NFL is going to miss it.  

[Lucky Colts Fan]

8 hours ago, Valpo2004 said:

I wouldn't consider dirty play and hits to be cheating.  

 

Thing to me about cheating is that I would define it as requiring 2 things.  

 

1. An attempt to gain advantage.  - This rules out Josh Gordon.  There is no question I think he's an idoit for choosing weed over millions of dollars.  But weed isn't gonna give him an advantage.  It would count if the drug was actually something that enhanced his performance such as steroids.  But I challenge you to find me a doctor who is going to put his professional reputation on the line by explaining how weed makes someone better at football.  

 

2. A clear attempt to hide your attempts at the first.  

 

Dirty hits and the like are more likely just a result of a loss of emotional control.  And while you could argue that they MIGHT give some advantage (highly questionable as they rarely result in injury and more often just make the other team angry.)

 

But also those things there is rarely any real attempt to hide them.  They happen on national TV.  The refs often spot them and even when they miss them the NFL doesn't and lays down fines and suspensions.

 

To me to be a cheater you have to be hiding what you are doing and be purposefully trying to gain advantage.

 

Tom Brady counts, Belichek counts, Greg Williams counts.  All those guys where trying to get advantages and made clear attempts to conceal their efforts.

 

Raiolia and Suh are just dirty players.  They don't count.  Very little advantage gained (overall mostly a disadvantage because they get hit with 15 yard penalties often enough)  No real attempt to conceal them.

 

Incognito doesn't count either.  He was bullying a member of his own team.  No question he's not a nice guy.  But that's not cheating.

 

I think for me there is a difference between breaking the rules and cheating.  Otherwise if every infraction against the rules was considered to be cheating then they are all cheaters.  Because anyone who's played for any length of time in the NFL has had a penalty called on them and if they havn't there are likely penalties they have committed but the refs missed.  Should every OL who's been called for holding be called a cheater?  What about every QB who intentionally grounded the ball?  Or every DB called for pass interference?

 

 

I bolded the part of your post that I think is the reason dirty play should be considered cheating.  A lot of dirty play happens because the offender thinks the ref won't notice.  Or CAN'T notice.

 

If you've ever been at the bottom of a pile in college or high school, where the ref can't see what's going on, you see guys poking eyes through facemasks, grabbing and twisting ankles, wrists, anything you can get your hands on.  If the ref doesn't see it, and the other guy comes out of the pile unable to finish the game, you helped your team.

 

Truly dirty play should be considered cheating.  AKA Bountygate.

 

I will admit, though, that there is a definite gray area when it comes to "competitive advantages".  Peyton exploited a lot of "loopholes" when he played, but never really cheated.  People call him the gold standard now, but back in the day, people said he was a "manipulator" and "ringleader" of the circus in Indy.

 

Peyton just did it out in the open where everyone could see.

[Lucky Colts Fan]

7 hours ago, Valpo2004 said:

 

I think you are confusing the Irsay thing with the hall of shame.  In there he might fit because of his drug problems.  But certainly wouldn't fit in this list.

 

I should also note that the reason for my #2 rational behind what counts as cheating is that is something that seperates it from mistakes.  For example the Jets got punished for saying that they would love to have Revis back while he was still on contract with the Patriots.  While this might have given them some advantage, I would argue it doesn't (likely) constitute cheating because it was said in such a public way that it's just more likely the person making the statement just made a mistake, an undisciplined statement.  I'm not opposed to them being punished for that but it's not likely cheating.  

 

Covering it up shows that one has the rational presence of mind to know that many would consider this a violation of the rules or at the very least bending the rules and try to punish you for it if they found out.  

 

But I find it difficult to call it cheating when anyone who's tuned into the right interview or the right game can catch you in the act.  And since the NFL can and does review these interviews and games played there is no way the NFL is going to miss it.  

 

I agree with this for the most part.  There are two sides to it.  Either they knew it was wrong and tried to conceal it (bad), or they did it out in the open whether it was against the rules or not (not as bad).

 

As they say, the cover-up is usually worse than the original offense.  Ask for forgiveness, not permission, but don't deny that you did it in the first place.

[csmopar]

On 6/19/2016 at 10:13 AM, Lucky Colts Fan said:

I could use some suggestions for an all-time team of cheaters.  I consider dirty play to be cheating, but not off-the-field stuff, so good guys like Hines Ward are considered, but bad guys like Aaron Hernandez are not.

 

It's kind of scary to imagine all these guys in one organization.  This is what I have so far:

 

Owner: Al Davis

GM:

Coach:  Bill Belichick

Offensive Coordinator:

Defensive Coordinator: Greg Williams

 

QB:  Tom Brady

FB:

HB:

WR:  Fred Belitnikoff, Hines Ward

TE:

T:

G:  Conrad Dobler, Richie Incognito

C:  Dominic Raiola

DE:  Lyle Alzado, Deacon Jones

DT:  Ndamukong Suh, Albert Haynesworth

OLB:  Shawne Merriman,

MLB:  Bill Romanowski

DB:  Rodney Harrison, Jack Tatum, George Atkinson

K:

P:

I'll make this easy.... see Patriots from 2001 to present. That's all you have to say. 4 stolen, cheated superbowls. Nobody is a bigger cheater

[Gramz]

[Lucky Colts Fan]

On ‎6‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 7:55 PM, Colts_Fan12 said:

Just copy and paste any Patriots team from owner down to the ball boys 

 

On ‎6‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 8:02 PM, Jules said:

I will save everyone the trouble.

 

Patriots

 

I know it's what everyone wants to say.

 

/thread

 

1 minute ago, csmopar said:

I'll make this easy.... see Patriots from 2001 to present. That's all you have to say. 4 stolen, cheated superbowls. Nobody is a bigger cheater

 

Yeah, I could easily have filled this list with players from the recent Patriots and players from the good ol' Raidas of the old days.  (Some might argue that there should be more Steroid-Steelers on this list).  But I figured having Al Davis and Bill Belichick in charge of this mythical team would be enough representation for those two "dynasties"...

 

Brady doesn't get a pass because of Deflate-gate.  He gets thrown under the Madden Bus, which Mr. Madden gets to ride into the sunset. 

 

I just didn't have the heart to throw every single Patriot and every single Raider under the bus.

[csmopar]

40 minutes ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

 

 

Yeah, I could easily have filled this list with players from the recent Patriots and players from the good ol' Raidas of the old days.  (Some might argue that there should be more Steroid-Steelers on this list).  But I figured having Al Davis and Bill Belichick in charge of this mythical team would be enough representation for those two "dynasties"...

 

Brady doesn't get a pass because of Deflate-gate.  He gets thrown under the Madden Bus, which Mr. Madden gets to ride into the sunset. 

 

I just didn't have the heart to throw every single Patriot and every single Raider under the bus.

Why? They sat by, allowed it to happen and reaped the benefits. They are just as guilty 

[NewColtsFan]

 

Deacon Jones?

 

When did he become dirty?       Because of the head slap?      You do know he invented it and it was legal for roughly 50 years?!    It was only outlawed sometime after 2000,  though I don't know when.     But it was legal his entire career.

 

Never once have I read or heard of anyone who thought Deacon was dirty.     He's a really good guy.    I interviewed him several times and he was always a good guy.       Good guy on the field,  good guy off of it.
 

Dirty?     I don't think so.....

 

[BloodyChamp]

There is nothing dirty about any play that doesn't break the rules no matter how bad it messes somebody up. As a Favre fanboy, I hate dirty plays. In the 2009 NFCCG he was on the wrong end of more than 1 dirty play and it cost him the game.

 

Fast forward to, ironically, the 2010 Pats game for what I believe to be the worst hit he ever took. He was carted off with his eyes closed while blood was pouring out of his face. That was 1 violent, brain scrambling hit, but dirty it was not. I forgot who it was who dished it out but Hines and Deacon are no dirtier than whoever it was on that play.

[HarryTheCat]

I really don't see how Fred Biletnikoff could be accused of "cheating".  Did he use Stickum? Sure. Half the league did, and it wasn't outlawed until much later. Some guys would slather the stuff on so thick that they had to scrape and scrub it off the ball before that ball could be put back in play. There were occasional receptions and interceptions that actually stuck to a player's forearm. You'd routinely see centers asking the ref to stop play when they were given a ball to snap that was so sticky that they probably wouldn't have been able to let go of it. 

 

One of the most precise route runners of all time, Biletnikoff was always exactly where he was supposed to be on every route. He wasn't the fastest receiver on the field by any stretch of the imagination, but there were two things that he used to his advantage. He wore some of the biggest, floppiest sleeves on his jersey, and he was blessed (cursed?) with a nose that was just short of qualifying him as an honorary toucan. As he ran a route, he would wag his head back and forth, nose going left and right, sleeves flapping, making every stride look like a break in or out. It drove defensive backs nuts trying to follow sleeves and nose, guessing where he would go. 

 

Now, if you want to talk about Raiders' cheating there's always that infamous "Holy Roller"...

[2006Coltsbestever]

This is for Jules the 2004 Patriots  Every knows nobody could hold the great Peyton Manning to 3 points in a Playoff game unless they filmed him in practices (sarcasm). Hell we just up 49 vs Denver the week before, WTH