Why Keep Clyde?

[johnwaynes44]

I can only think of one reason why Clyde Christensen would be the lone (key) survivor in this witch hunt...Manning knows he is staying with the Colts and somehow he is defending Clyde and wants him back. This sounds crazy as I am typing it, but if they have a new staff, new HC, new GM, new QB, why would they keep the offensive mastermind partly responsible for the 2-14 meltdown that has swept the Colts front office and the nation. This should have been the first coach to hit the road behind the defensive coordinator. Rebuilding around Clyde Christensen, WOW!

[CR91]

just give it time. he will be axed

[buccolts]

I'm not saying that I don't think he'll be axed, but here's my thought on retaining him.

Over the past decade, the only consistently successful unit on the team has been the offense.

Yes, they're changing directions, but it's never been said that all units need a major overhaul. Personally, if they made drastic changes to the offense, I'll miss not worrying about being down 2 TDs.

Change the HC to ensure a new vision/direction. Change the defense to be more physical. Change the STs to be more effective. Tweek the offense to be a more balanced attack (new running schemes, better back up QB), but don't start trash the unit that has been successful.

Right now, how many coaches out there know our system? CC, Moore, and who?

Just my thoughts.

[MLawRunner]

I think they are keeping him on the chance that Manning is healthy - because if he is, I think Irsay holds true to his word that he plays in Indy (barring Manning forcing the trade himself). That really is the only way keeping Clyde out of all of this makes sense, because he knows Peyton's offense and the system would not have to start from scratch should Peyton be healthy enough to play ball. Either that, or Irsay likes the offensive system, and would like to keep it for the incoming draft pick (presumably Andrew Luck). Luck, like Manning, has many of those same tools - so it is also possible he wants Luck to learn and develop in the same system Manning has used all these years.

Total guesses, but that is all I can think of for why he remains the lone wolf standing after this aggressive coaching turnover.

[JoKeR]

Manning is not dependent on Clyde in anyway and he's not going to be saved by Peyton. The new coach will pick his coordinators.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Keeping the same offensive structure with or without Manning is a huge mistake so is keeping Clyde Christensen.

[Smitto]

Why NOT keep Clyde? Irsay has already stated that ppl who deserve to keep their jobs will... if you wana axe everyone that was responsible for the 2-14 season you might as well cut every player. Clyde will not be getting fired unless the new HC doesn't like him which is probably what they are waiting for....... Clyde has done a pretty good job with what he had.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Why NOT keep Clyde? Irsay has already stated that ppl who deserve to keep their jobs will... if you wana axe everyone that was responsible for the 2-14 season you might as well cut every player. Clyde will not be getting fired unless the new HC doesn't like him which is probably what they are waiting for....... Clyde has done a pretty good job with what he had.

Clyde did a horrible job this past year. Worse that Coyer, or any other assistant already fired.

[Smitto]

Clyde did a horrible job this past year. Worse that Coyer, or any other assistant already fired.

Man what are you talking about? Tell me what he did horrible? Also plz remind me what Conyer did cause from what I remember he said he wanted to do more blitzes but wasn't allowed to by polian.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Man what are you talking about? Tell me what he did horrible? Also plz remind me what Conyer did cause from what I remember he said he wanted to do more blitzes but wasn't allowed to by polian.

Where should I start?

• He didn't simplify the offense for Collins when Collins had 2 weeks to learn it.(Not entirely his fault).
  
• He didn't alter the offense to an offense that Collins would have had a better chance of running on short notice.
  
• The same things could be said about Curtis Painter.
  
• He had Curtis Painter throwing at a higher pass to run ratio than Peyton Manning did outside of the last three years.
  
  • Translation. He called a higher % of passing plays for Painter than we did for Manning in his historic 2004 season.
    
  • He called a higher % of passing plays for Painter than Tom Brady has ever thrown except for this past season. That is offensive brilliance right there.
    

  [*]It took him and Caldwell what 12 to 13 weeks to see that Painter was failing at this approach and then they finally made a change to Orlovsky.

That should be enough to prove the point. It's not worth my time to continue. The one year he had a chance to showcase his coaching, he was horrible at it. Keep in mind he was a key contributing factor to Dungy getting fired in Tampa with a very anemic offense.

If Coyer wanted to blitz so bad he should have.

His defense seemed different when he first got here, but then it changed... It was better when he first got here.. He's going to get fired if it sucks, so you might as well run it the way you think is best, since the only thing that could happen at that point is a better defense or you end up getting fired anyway.

[MEAT]

I agree that Clyde should be fired.

[Thewholefnshow28]

Where should I start?

• He didn't simplify the offense for Collins when Collins had 2 weeks to learn it.(Not entirely his fault).
• He didn't alter the offense to an offense that Collins would have had a better chance of running on short notice.
• The same things could be said about Curtis Painter.
• He had Curtis Painter throwing at a higher pass to run ratio than Peyton Manning did outside of the last three years.
  • Translation. He called a higher % of passing plays for Painter than we did for Manning in his historic 2004 season.
  • He called a higher % of passing plays for Painter than Tom Brady has ever thrown except for this past season. That is offensive brilliance right there.

  [*]It took him and Caldwell what 12 to 13 weeks to see that Painter was failing at this approach and then they finally made a change to Orlovsky.

That should be enough to prove the point. It's not worth my time to continue. The one year he had a chance to showcase his coaching, he was horrible at it. Keep in mind he was a key contributing factor to Dungy getting fired in Tampa with a very anemic offense.

Could not have said it better.

The simple fact he had Painter throwing at the same rate if not more as Peyton was shows that he is poor in developing a game plan. Why not simplify and rely on the running game more? How many times in the game threads did we see posters complaining about how we were getting away from a running game that was working?

His lowest attempt numbe was 11 and that was against the Steelers when he came in late in the game. He had games of 30, 34, and 49 attempts. There is no way Painter ever should have been throwing the ball more the 25 times a game.

I do not know if it was arrogance, incompetence, or stubborness, but his failure to design the system around who was leading the offense shows why he does not need to be here.

He is just another coach who road the coattails of Peyton.

[NagelHausForge]

With Manning being out this season I don't know if you could put all the blame on Coyer for the Offense's inability to produce points... I do think the play calling was altered due to the new players that we had in the system.... however I feel our play calling was waaaaaay to conservative at times. How much of this is Coyer's fault? I dont know. I wouldn't mind seeing him back but then I wouldn't mind seeing him get the axe either.

As I have said before, I love this offseason. Its like a soap opera for men! (and female colts fans!)

[Jay305]

Clyde is a joke of an OC never liked him at all heck be gone once the new HC comes in

[Smitto]

Where should I start?

• He didn't simplify the offense for Collins when Collins had 2 weeks to learn it.(Not entirely his fault).
  
• He didn't alter the offense to an offense that Collins would have had a better chance of running on short notice.
  
• The same things could be said about Curtis Painter.
  
• He had Curtis Painter throwing at a higher pass to run ratio than Peyton Manning did outside of the last three years.
  
  • Translation. He called a higher % of passing plays for Painter than we did for Manning in his historic 2004 season.
    
  • He called a higher % of passing plays for Painter than Tom Brady has ever thrown except for this past season. That is offensive brilliance right there.
    

  [*]It took him and Caldwell what 12 to 13 weeks to see that Painter was failing at this approach and then they finally made a change to Orlovsky.

That should be enough to prove the point. It's not worth my time to continue. The one year he had a chance to showcase his coaching, he was horrible at it. Keep in mind he was a key contributing factor to Dungy getting fired in Tampa with a very anemic offense.

If Coyer wanted to blitz so bad he should have.

His defense seemed different when he first got here, but then it changed... It was better when he first got here.. He's going to get fired if it sucks, so you might as well run it the way you think is best, since the only thing that could happen at that point is a better defense or you end up getting fired anyway.

You do realize that plans dont always go the way they are suppose to right? the playbook was simplified for BOTH collins and painter.. what do you want them to do put in in crayons? it didnt not work simply because the defense they played figured it out.

First of the colts run one of the most simple offenses in the NFL peyton only made it look hard because of his work ethic and how he perfected it, which is proabably why the colts always failed alot in the playoffs but thats another story.

Why do you think people and brodcasters were able to call what plays the colts were going to run before they ran it? because it was already baby's food... the failure layed mostly on the QB's not Clyde... they ran the same plays with peyton how come he didnt fail?

Did you see orlovsky's last game? it wasnt exactly drew bree's out there.

On Coyer almost the same thing could be said, coyer had success because he had players like hayden who excelled well in zone and last year they did blitz more than they did in the 2011 i believe.. When Coyer was fired Mike came in and he actually ramped up the cover 2 and they paid for that in the Pats game.

Why was coyer fired during the season when he could have been fired after? it was evident coyer didnt like what was going on, from the time he said "ask the HC about tryon".

Point is some of you think you actually know how to judge a HC or Coordinator when you really dont, Clyde ran some really good plays during the season to convert on 3rd downs and he put his players in positions to produce but unfortunately they didnt..

We all know if peyton was out there he would make Clyde look good, unfortunately for him he had to depend on orlovsky, painter and collins....... so how is that his fault?

[Superman]

Where should I start?

• He didn't simplify the offense for Collins when Collins had 2 weeks to learn it.(Not entirely his fault).
  
• He didn't alter the offense to an offense that Collins would have had a better chance of running on short notice.
  
• The same things could be said about Curtis Painter.
  
• He had Curtis Painter throwing at a higher pass to run ratio than Peyton Manning did outside of the last three years.
  
  • Translation. He called a higher % of passing plays for Painter than we did for Manning in his historic 2004 season.
    
  • He called a higher % of passing plays for Painter than Tom Brady has ever thrown except for this past season. That is offensive brilliance right there.
    

  [*]It took him and Caldwell what 12 to 13 weeks to see that Painter was failing at this approach and then they finally made a change to Orlovsky.

That should be enough to prove the point. It's not worth my time to continue. The one year he had a chance to showcase his coaching, he was horrible at it. Keep in mind he was a key contributing factor to Dungy getting fired in Tampa with a very anemic offense.

I hope this isn't taken as a defense of Clyde. The offense was not good this season, but I think it's more over the poor quarterbacks than it is over the plays being called for them.

1) The offense didn't need to be simplified for Collins. Contrary to popular belief, the Colts offense is already one of the simplest in the NFL. Some fans complain that it's too predictable because we run the same plays every week.

2) He didn't alter the offense to complement Collins because we don't have the receivers or the offensive line to run the kind of offense that Collins would be comfortable in. Collins has spent his entire career throwing to wide open receivers, not throwing timing routes to well-covered receivers. He doesn't throw up the seam between the linebackers and safeties. We don't have the offensive line to give him the time needed to wait for receivers to come wide open, and we don't have receivers that create the kind of separation he's used to seeing. The failure with Collins was with signing him in the first place. I understand why they did it, but he's not the kind of quarterback we needed.

3) Curtis Painter remarkably had a pretty good grasp of the offense and was much more willing to throw the ball to his receivers. He's just not a very good quarterback, and he would lock in on his primary receiver too often. Again, a failure with personnel, not with coaching.

4) Perhaps the reason Painter was throwing so much was the fact that we were behind so often. There were some stretches that we just absolutely not have been throwing as much, like the Tampa game when we practically abandoned the run in the third quarter. I criticized this playcalling in my Grades threads. But comparing his pass % to Manning's or Brady's isn't a fair straight-across comparison, I don't think.

5) I'm reasonably certain the decision to stick with Painter was an edict from Bill Polian.

6) The Bucs offense sucked because Shaun King was the quarterback.

I'm not saying I think he should keep his job. I just don't think your criticisms of him are legitimate reasons for firing him. I think he had his hands tied in various ways this season.

If you want to point out why he should be fired, just look at the offensive stats. Look at the points scored, or the 3rd down %, or the yards/play. Plenty of reasons to criticize his offense this season.

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

Why NOT keep Clyde? Irsay has already stated that ppl who deserve to keep their jobs will... if you wana axe everyone that was responsible for the 2-14 season you might as well cut every player. Clyde will not be getting fired unless the new HC doesn't like him which is probably what they are waiting for....... Clyde has done a pretty good job with what he had.

I disagree Clyde is not good in my opinion, if being good was the only thing to keeping your job I think John Terlink should have stayed.

[Smitto]

I disagree Clyde is not good in my opinion, if being good was the only thing to keeping your job I think John Terlink should have stayed.

John Terlink was a great coach but i think that has more to do with the type of direction the colts want to go on defense... as on offense that could be based on the HC which in turn could mean if that HC wants manning to learn a new offense or not.... which in turn could mean peyton is staying.

[oldunclemark]

Where should I start?

• He didn't simplify the offense for Collins when Collins had 2 weeks to learn it.(Not entirely his fault).
  
• He didn't alter the offense to an offense that Collins would have had a better chance of running on short notice.
  
• The same things could be said about Curtis Painter.
  
• He had Curtis Painter throwing at a higher pass to run ratio than Peyton Manning did outside of the last three years.
  
  • Translation. He called a higher % of passing plays for Painter than we did for Manning in his historic 2004 season.
    
  • He called a higher % of passing plays for Painter than Tom Brady has ever thrown except for this past season. That is offensive brilliance right there.
    

  [*]It took him and Caldwell what 12 to 13 weeks to see that Painter was failing at this approach and then they finally made a change to Orlovsky.

That should be enough to prove the point. It's not worth my time to continue. The one year he had a chance to showcase his coaching, he was horrible at it. Keep in mind he was a key contributing factor to Dungy getting fired in Tampa with a very anemic offense.

If Coyer wanted to blitz so bad he should have.

His defense seemed different when he first got here, but then it changed... It was better when he first got here.. He's going to get fired if it sucks, so you might as well run it the way you think is best, since the only thing that could happen at that point is a better defense or you end up getting fired anyway.

FJC...

Clyde Christensen aside..

People keep saying what youre saying and there's a couple of misconceptions..that lend into how much we are starting over without Peyton Manning..

You cant simplify the Colts offense the past few years because its in the head on Manning..

Remember how he said they used code and shorthand that Collins couldnt know and Painter didnt know

Plus Painter and Collins simply couldnt do it as well as Manning....Painter has A relationship with the pass catchers but not Peyton's relationship.

(I agree we should have gone to Danny O sooner but we passed more because we were always behind.....)

But looking ahead you cant simplify our offense under Manning..You can only use different terminology (IE..another offense) for the other QBs

..and you need training camp to work on that..

That's why the future will see such great change...

We never again want to have an offense that's entirely in the head of one QB...and we wont

That's why its so important for Luck and Manning to share practice reps...next season...

..and for Luck to play most of the pre-season...and to actually get into regular season games for a series or two.

Finally. We've blamed everybody and we've fired almost everybody.

..now comes the hard part.

[BlueShoe]

just give it time. he will be axed

Maybe, but maybe not. Last year wasn't his fault. He doesn't sign players and the quarterbacks were a mess last season. I could see this going either way. With Peyton, it would make more sense to keep Clyde around. Might as well keep the offense the same or close to it. If Peyton doesn't come back then it would make sense to move on to a new concept.

[LUVTHESHOE]

Where should I start?

• He didn't simplify the offense for Collins when Collins had 2 weeks to learn it.(Not entirely his fault).
  
• He didn't alter the offense to an offense that Collins would have had a better chance of running on short notice.
  
• The same things could be said about Curtis Painter.
  
• He had Curtis Painter throwing at a higher pass to run ratio than Peyton Manning did outside of the last three years.
  
  • Translation. He called a higher % of passing plays for Painter than we did for Manning in his historic 2004 season.
    
  • He called a higher % of passing plays for Painter than Tom Brady has ever thrown except for this past season. That is offensive brilliance right there.
    

  [*]It took him and Caldwell what 12 to 13 weeks to see that Painter was failing at this approach and then they finally made a change to Orlovsky.

That should be enough to prove the point. It's not worth my time to continue. The one year he had a chance to showcase his coaching, he was horrible at it. Keep in mind he was a key contributing factor to Dungy getting fired in Tampa with a very anemic offense.

If Coyer wanted to blitz so bad he should have.

His defense seemed different when he first got here, but then it changed... It was better when he first got here.. He's going to get fired if it sucks, so you might as well run it the way you think is best, since the only thing that could happen at that point is a better defense or you end up getting fired anyway.

Exactly!!!!

[BlueShoe]

I disagree Clyde is not good in my opinion, if being good was the only thing to keeping your job I think John Terlink should have stayed.

I believe Teerlink is gone because the entire defensive concept is out. We haven't scrapped the offense yet because we don't know which direction we are heading into yet. We just knew the defense had to go.

[The Fish]

According to sum doofus's on espn1000, yeah I listen to Chicago sports radio ( i miss home.. sniff..) They think Clyde would be a good DC for the Bears.. I lol'd. Why fire Angelo if your going to do the same stuff.

[Restored]

You do realize that plans dont always go the way they are suppose to right? the playbook was simplified for BOTH collins and painter.. what do you want them to do put in in crayons? it didnt not work simply because the defense they played figured it out.

First of the colts run one of the most simple offenses in the NFL peyton only made it look hard because of his work ethic and how he perfected it, which is proabably why the colts always failed alot in the playoffs but thats another story.

Why do you think people and brodcasters were able to call what plays the colts were going to run before they ran it? because it was already baby's food... the failure layed mostly on the QB's not Clyde... they ran the same plays with peyton how come he didnt fail?

Did you see orlovsky's last game? it wasnt exactly drew bree's out there.

On Coyer almost the same thing could be said, coyer had success because he had players like hayden who excelled well in zone and last year they did blitz more than they did in the 2011 i believe.. When Coyer was fired Mike came in and he actually ramped up the cover 2 and they paid for that in the Pats game.

Why was coyer fired during the season when he could have been fired after? it was evident coyer didnt like what was going on, from the time he said "ask the HC about tryon".

Point is some of you think you actually know how to judge a HC or Coordinator when you really dont, Clyde ran some really good plays during the season to convert on 3rd downs and he put his players in positions to produce but unfortunately they didnt..

We all know if peyton was out there he would make Clyde look good, unfortunately for him he had to depend on orlovsky, painter and collins....... so how is that his fault?

Great post. I think if we have Peyton come back, you have to keep him on board.

[CR91]

Maybe, but maybe not. Last year wasn't his fault. He doesn't sign players and the quarterbacks were a mess last season. I could see this going either way. With Peyton, it would make more sense to keep Clyde around. Might as well keep the offense the same or close to it. If Peyton doesn't come back then it would make sense to move on to a new concept.

just cant see a new HC not wanting his own OC.

[oldunclemark]

just cant see a new HC not wanting his own OC.

Exactly..

They're cleaning house. Totally..

[FireJimCaldwell]

You do realize that plans dont always go the way they are suppose to right? the playbook was simplified for BOTH collins and painter.. what do you want them to do put in in crayons? it didnt not work simply because the defense they played figured it out.

(1) First of the colts run one of the most simple offenses in the NFL peyton only made it look hard because of his work ethic and how he perfected it, which is proabably why the colts always failed alot in the playoffs but thats another story.

(2) Why do you think people and brodcasters were able to call what plays the colts were going to run before they ran it? because it was already baby's food... the failure layed mostly on the QB's not Clyde... they ran the same plays with peyton how come he didnt fail?

(3) Did you see orlovsky's last game? it wasnt exactly drew bree's out there.

(4) On Coyer almost the same thing could be said, coyer had success because he had players like hayden who excelled well in zone and last year they did blitz more than they did in the 2011 i believe.. When Coyer was fired Mike came in and he actually ramped up the cover 2 and they paid for that in the Pats game.

Why was coyer fired during the season when he could have been fired after? it was evident coyer didnt like what was going on, from the time he said "ask the HC about tryon".

(5) Point is some of you think you actually know how to judge a HC or Coordinator when you really dont, Clyde ran some really good plays during the season to convert on 3rd downs and he put his players in positions to produce but unfortunately they didnt..

(6) We all know if peyton was out there he would make Clyde look good, unfortunately for him he had to depend on orlovsky, painter and collins....... so how is that his fault?

I hope this isn't taken as a defense of Clyde. The offense was not good this season, but I think it's more over the poor quarterbacks than it is over the plays being called for them.

7) The offense didn't need to be simplified for Collins. Contrary to popular belief, the Colts offense is already one of the simplest in the NFL. Some fans complain that it's too predictable because we run the same plays every week.

8) He didn't alter the offense to complement Collins because we don't have the receivers or the offensive line to run the kind of offense that Collins would be comfortable in. Collins has spent his entire career throwing to wide open receivers, not throwing timing routes to well-covered receivers. He doesn't throw up the seam between the linebackers and safeties. We don't have the offensive line to give him the time needed to wait for receivers to come wide open, and we don't have receivers that create the kind of separation he's used to seeing. The failure with Collins was with signing him in the first place. I understand why they did it, but he's not the kind of quarterback we needed.

9) Curtis Painter remarkably had a pretty good grasp of the offense and was much more willing to throw the ball to his receivers. He's just not a very good quarterback, and he would lock in on his primary receiver too often. Again, a failure with personnel, not with coaching.

10) Perhaps the reason Painter was throwing so much was the fact that we were behind so often. There were some stretches that we just absolutely not have been throwing as much, like the Tampa game when we practically abandoned the run in the third quarter. I criticized this playcalling in my Grades threads. But comparing his pass % to Manning's or Brady's isn't a fair straight-across comparison, I don't think.

11) I'm reasonably certain the decision to stick with Painter was an edict from Bill Polian.

12) The Bucs offense sucked because Shaun King was the quarterback.

13) I'm not saying I think he should keep his job. I just don't think your criticisms of him are legitimate reasons for firing him. I think he had his hands tied in various ways this season.

If you want to point out why he should be fired, just look at the offensive stats. Look at the points scored, or the 3rd down %, or the yards/play. Plenty of reasons to criticize his offense this season.

14) FJC...

Clyde Christensen aside..

People keep saying what youre saying and there's a couple of misconceptions..that lend into how much we are starting over without Peyton Manning..

You cant simplify the Colts offense the past few years because its in the head on Manning..

Remember how he said they used code and shorthand that Collins couldnt know and Painter didnt know

Plus Painter and Collins simply couldnt do it as well as Manning....Painter has A relationship with the pass catchers but not Peyton's relationship.

(I agree we should have gone to Danny O sooner but we passed more because we were always behind.....)

But looking ahead you cant simplify our offense under Manning..You can only use different terminology (IE..another offense) for the other QBs

..and you need training camp to work on that..

That's why the future will see such great change...

We never again want to have an offense that's entirely in the head of one QB...and we wont

That's why its so important for Luck and Manning to share practice reps...next season...

..and for Luck to play most of the pre-season...and to actually get into regular season games for a series or two.

Finally. We've blamed everybody and we've fired almost everybody.

..now comes the hard part.

1) Of course things don’t always go as planned, which is evident by this past season. They planned on Collins & Painter to run Manning’s offense efficiently and they failed at that.

If it were truly so simple, it wouldn’t have been so hard for Collins to pick it up. The fact that offense has been built and expanded and added to by Manning & Moore over the years makes the full package not so simple because nobody but Manning could run it.

Maybe simpfy wasn’t the best choice of words as opposed to alter it to a base offense that every team has. I formation, route terminology stays the same, blocking terminology stays the same. Keep some concepts, remove the others. Either way Caldwell & Christensen failed the team and each of those quarterbacks. The changes should have been made as soon as Manning goes under the knife for the 2^nd time.

(2) That falls on self-scouting and a lack of an imagination. Manning can run fewer base plays and get away with it due to the fact that he executes better. When he is not part of the equation, this creates a bigger problem. Again it falls on coaching because neither quarterback can produce at or near a Manningesque level.

(3) That would make it seem I compared Orlvosky to Brees. Which I didn’t so do you have a point with that comment?

(4) The Coyer defense for most of 2009 was far different from 2010 or 2011. It seems it changed when Freeney went down in the Jets playoff game when he should have been on the sideline at that point because the game was over. After that the blitzes and aggressiveness declined and got progressively worse. That might have come down from Caldwell and it might have been from Polian. Maybe Coyer has more of an abrasive demeanor that had trouble with being told what to do when it was clearly not the right thing to do.

(5) We averaged 49.8 % 3^rd down conversions the previous 5 years under Manning. We converted 34.6 this past season collectively. Part of that is on Manning’s actual abilities and efficiency. Part of that could easily be attributed to Manning putting the team in a better play than Christensen. In my opinion it would be a combination of the two.

(6) Yeah Manning has made him look good, but if I am in that position and am forced to play without the main cog, then I am going to make conceptual changes that will attempt to put Collins, Painter and Orlovsky in the best position to have success. If I do that and they fail, then it is more on them for failing to execute. If I failed to make those changes then I have to absorb a larger portion of the blame.

7) See #1) above. Simplified wasn’t the best term. Altered all together would have been a better word because asking for Collins to run the Manning offense(something that took 13 years to cultivate to this point) in 2-6 weeks is a joke. When Polian said Collins could master it conceptually in 48 hours it might quite frankly be the dumbest thing he has ever uttered out of his mouth.

8) We most certainly have the receivers and the lineman to run a more generic base I formation/ WCO offense. Collins should have been signed sooner and the lockout would have limited that to a few weeks, but even then if Polian is dead set on him being the guy, then Collins, Caldwell & Christensen and the Metz, should have come together and worked out a modified offense that would allow him to be more comfortable.

9) At times he looked like he had a clue, and at times he looked completely lost. That paired with his lack of having the skill set to run the offense to start with and the pocket presence of Ray Charles, he did’t stand much of a chance of being very successful and the few bright spots he did have could easily be attributed to awesome plays after the catch from Garcon. Again, if he’s put in a system he would be even more comfortable in, he would have likely produced at a higher rate than he did. Yes he sucked, but he could have sucked less in a more QB friendly offense.

10) I took the score into consideration, but there were games where we started with Pass pass pass as if 18 was back there and he wasn’t. I get that the NFL game overall has shifted to throw more, and I certainly understand the concept of having to throw more often while behind, but as you mentioned there were stretches that we were throwing too often and games that if we would have run the ball more(KC being an example) that we might have even been able to hang on to a W. It might not be a fair comparison to some, but he shouldn’t approach those ratios unless starting each game down 35-0 and that wasn’t the case. He was throwing at a higher rate the Aarron Rodgers, the NFL mvp. No excuse for that.

11) That could have easily been Polian’s call, and that isn’t a positive for JC & CC not standing up to him and making the changes anyway.

12) Brad Johnson was the quarterback the year CC was the OC in TB.

13) I did note that I was stopping with my criticism of CC because the point had already been proven. 3^rd down, Red zone, pass to run ratio, a lot of statistical data supports how poor of a job he did.

14) All support the opinion that KC or CP or DO had no business running the Manning offense. Any of the three would have likely performed better in a QB friendly offense as opposed to one that has been cultivated over 13 years.

[Smitto]

1) Of course things don’t always go as planned, which is evident by this past season. They planned on Collins & Painter to run Manning’s offense efficiently and they failed at that.

If it were truly so simple, it wouldn’t have been so hard for Collins to pick it up. The fact that offense has been built and expanded and added to by Manning & Moore over the years makes the full package not so simple because nobody but Manning could run it.

Maybe simpfy wasn’t the best choice of words as opposed to alter it to a base offense that every team has. I formation, route terminology stays the same, blocking terminology stays the same. Keep some concepts, remove the others. Either way Caldwell & Christensen failed the team and each of those quarterbacks. The changes should have been made as soon as Manning goes under the knife for the 2^nd time.

(2) That falls on self-scouting and a lack of an imagination. Manning can run fewer base plays and get away with it due to the fact that he executes better. When he is not part of the equation, this creates a bigger problem. Again it falls on coaching because neither quarterback can produce at or near a Manningesque level.

(3) That would make it seem I compared Orlvosky to Brees. Which I didn’t so do you have a point with that comment?

(4) The Coyer defense for most of 2009 was far different from 2010 or 2011. It seems it changed when Freeney went down in the Jets playoff game when he should have been on the sideline at that point because the game was over. After that the blitzes and aggressiveness declined and got progressively worse. That might have come down from Caldwell and it might have been from Polian. Maybe Coyer has more of an abrasive demeanor that had trouble with being told what to do when it was clearly not the right thing to do.

(5) We averaged 49.8 % 3^rd down conversions the previous 5 years under Manning. We converted 34.6 this past season collectively. Part of that is on Manning’s actual abilities and efficiency. Part of that could easily be attributed to Manning putting the team in a better play than Christensen. In my opinion it would be a combination of the two.

(6) Yeah Manning has made him look good, but if I am in that position and am forced to play without the main cog, then I am going to make conceptual changes that will attempt to put Collins, Painter and Orlovsky in the best position to have success. If I do that and they fail, then it is more on them for failing to execute. If I failed to make those changes then I have to absorb a larger portion of the blame.

7) See #1) above. Simplified wasn’t the best term. Altered all together would have been a better word because asking for Collins to run the Manning offense(something that took 13 years to cultivate to this point) in 2-6 weeks is a joke. When Polian said Collins could master it conceptually in 48 hours it might quite frankly be the dumbest thing he has ever uttered out of his mouth.

8) We most certainly have the receivers and the lineman to run a more generic base I formation/ WCO offense. Collins should have been signed sooner and the lockout would have limited that to a few weeks, but even then if Polian is dead set on him being the guy, then Collins, Caldwell & Christensen and the Metz, should have come together and worked out a modified offense that would allow him to be more comfortable.

9) At times he looked like he had a clue, and at times he looked completely lost. That paired with his lack of having the skill set to run the offense to start with and the pocket presence of Ray Charles, he did’t stand much of a chance of being very successful and the few bright spots he did have could easily be attributed to awesome plays after the catch from Garcon. Again, if he’s put in a system he would be even more comfortable in, he would have likely produced at a higher rate than he did. Yes he sucked, but he could have sucked less in a more QB friendly offense.

10) I took the score into consideration, but there were games where we started with Pass pass pass as if 18 was back there and he wasn’t. I get that the NFL game overall has shifted to throw more, and I certainly understand the concept of having to throw more often while behind, but as you mentioned there were stretches that we were throwing too often and games that if we would have run the ball more(KC being an example) that we might have even been able to hang on to a W. It might not be a fair comparison to some, but he shouldn’t approach those ratios unless starting each game down 35-0 and that wasn’t the case. He was throwing at a higher rate the Aarron Rodgers, the NFL mvp. No excuse for that.

11) That could have easily been Polian’s call, and that isn’t a positive for JC & CC not standing up to him and making the changes anyway.

12) Brad Johnson was the quarterback the year CC was the OC in TB.

13) I did note that I was stopping with my criticism of CC because the point had already been proven. 3^rd down, Red zone, pass to run ratio, a lot of statistical data supports how poor of a job he did.

14) All support the opinion that KC or CP or DO had no business running the Manning offense. Any of the three would have likely performed better in a QB friendly offense as opposed to one that has been cultivated over 13 years.

No disrespect but i didnt read all that...

You know what cost those guys their jobs, with the fact that BP didnt prepare for a season without polian?

The offensive line, which would have probably saved collins job if they were good enough and kept him up right... which was also one of painters problems.

The defense who couldnt get off the field on 3rd downs, of course that had to do with some of the plays called as well.. but at the end it comes down to if the players can make a play.

And the lack of talent evaluation which is due on caldwell for not actually starting and keeping those who should start.

Point blank if those players actually performed the way they were supposed to we wouldnt be having this converstaion, which is why i think if some of the same players are kept at starters you will see the same problem on defense and the offensive line even if peyton is starting.

Forget who's calling the plays, they wont make a difference if you dont have time or your QB cant complete a pass.

[FireJimCaldwell]

No disrespect but i didnt read all that...

Then why even respond?

[CanuckColtsFan]

Teams were taking away the run forcing Curtis Painter to pass. Who wouldn't

[wordofmouth]

It really doesn't matter what kind of job Christianson did last year, the question is, what kind of job can he do with Peyton if Peyton is around this year . If that is case we MAY be better of with Clyde than someone who is going to come in and institute a whole new offense. By all acounts, Manning and him have a very good relationship and that is something to take in to consideration.

Also, if the plan is to daft Luck and let him study under Peyton in order for him to eventually take over the same scheme then having Christianson around would be helpful as well.

[Blackhawk4]

When you're down 14+ because everyone is scoring on your defense (Now this is me going out on a limb here), I'm pretty sure you're going to have to pass alot to try and catch up....

[Smitto]

Then why even respond?

Simple, because i had something to say

[LUVTHESHOE]

Clyde, like the rest of them will be gone. It is just a matter of time And most of the time we would come throwing and throwing. I don't remember every game, buy I do remember us never committing to run for over a series or two.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Simple, because i had something to say

congratulations

[Superman]

7) See #1) above. Simplified wasn’t the best term. Altered all together would have been a better word because asking for Collins to run the Manning offense(something that took 13 years to cultivate to this point) in 2-6 weeks is a joke. When Polian said Collins could master it conceptually in 48 hours it might quite frankly be the dumbest thing he has ever uttered out of his mouth.

I understood what Polian was saying. Again, not a complex offense, the plays are simple and easy to run, but it takes timing and chemistry. Not only that, the quarterback has to be willing to throw timing passes, and that's not what Collins has done his entire career.

8) We most certainly have the receivers and the lineman to run a more generic base I formation/ WCO offense. Collins should have been signed sooner and the lockout would have limited that to a few weeks, but even then if Polian is dead set on him being the guy, then Collins, Caldwell & Christensen and the Metz, should have come together and worked out a modified offense that would allow him to be more comfortable.

We run a WCO. Collins isn't a WCO quarterback. He doesn't throw quick passes through small windows to covered receivers. He stands behind the offensive line like a statue, holding the ball in one hand at his waist, and throws mostly outside the hashes to receivers who have created significant separation. He wasn't the right quarterback for our offense, period.

We went through several fullbacks, but that requires a significant shift in the way the offensive line blocks. And again, Collins didn't necessarily need an I-formation offense. It just wasn't a good fit, systematically. We'd have been better off with Painter from the beginning.

And, as you say, Collins wasn't here through training camp. Even more reason we shouldn't have signed him. This is me speaking with the benefit of hindsight, but it's pretty obvious what the challenges were and why he didn't work out for us.

9) At times he looked like he had a clue, and at times he looked completely lost. That paired with his lack of having the skill set to run the offense to start with and the pocket presence of Ray Charles, he did’t stand much of a chance of being very successful and the few bright spots he did have could easily be attributed to awesome plays after the catch from Garcon. Again, if he’s put in a system he would be even more comfortable in, he would have likely produced at a higher rate than he did. Yes he sucked, but he could have sucked less in a more QB friendly offense.

We should have run the ball more and passed less. But Painter did a lot better than I expected, and I think if we had give him better gameplans, he'd have won a game or two. The offense did enough to beat Tampa, and the defensive scheme was awful.

10) I took the score into consideration, but there were games where we started with Pass pass pass as if 18 was back there and he wasn’t. I get that the NFL game overall has shifted to throw more, and I certainly understand the concept of having to throw more often while behind, but as you mentioned there were stretches that we were throwing too often and games that if we would have run the ball more(KC being an example) that we might have even been able to hang on to a W. It might not be a fair comparison to some, but he shouldn’t approach those ratios unless starting each game down 35-0 and that wasn’t the case. He was throwing at a higher rate the Aarron Rodgers, the NFL mvp. No excuse for that.

Yeah, we threw too much. But I don't really care about his ratios. I care that we didn't put him in position to be successful.

11) That could have easily been Polian’s call, and that isn’t a positive for JC & CC not standing up to him and making the changes anyway.

Caldwell is gone. Polian is gone. Could be a moot point.

12) Brad Johnson was the quarterback the year CC was the OC in TB.

What do you mean quarterback of the year? He was efficient and effective, but still a limited quarterback for an offense that took a backseat to the defense. Credit to CC, maybe, but I'm just saying Brad Johnson was nothing special in Tampa.

13) I did note that I was stopping with my criticism of CC because the point had already been proven. 3^rd down, Red zone, pass to run ratio, a lot of statistical data supports how poor of a job he did.

Yup. I don't care as much as you do about the pass:run ratio, and I think the offense was doomed the minute Manning went down. But we definitely did a lot worse than we should have, even given the situation. I personally don't think we should keep Clyde, not unless we're keeping Manning, which I hope we are.

[FireJimCaldwell]

I understood what Polian was saying. Again, not a complex offense, the plays are simple and easy to run, but it takes timing and chemistry. Not only that, the quarterback has to be willing to throw timing passes, and that's not what Collins has done his entire career.

We run a WCO. Collins isn't a WCO quarterback. He doesn't throw quick passes through small windows to covered receivers. He stands behind the offensive line like a statue, holding the ball in one hand at his waist, and throws mostly outside the hashes to receivers who have created significant separation. He wasn't the right quarterback for our offense, period.

We went through several fullbacks, but that requires a significant shift in the way the offensive line blocks. And again, Collins didn't necessarily need an I-formation offense. It just wasn't a good fit, systematically. We'd have been better off with Painter from the beginning.

And, as you say, Collins wasn't here through training camp. Even more reason we shouldn't have signed him. This is me speaking with the benefit of hindsight, but it's pretty obvious what the challenges were and why he didn't work out for us.

We should have run the ball more and passed less. But Painter did a lot better than I expected, and I think if we had give him better gameplans, he'd have won a game or two. The offense did enough to beat Tampa, and the defensive scheme was awful.

Yeah, we threw too much. But I don't really care about his ratios. I care that we didn't put him in position to be successful.

Caldwell is gone. Polian is gone. Could be a moot point.

What do you mean quarterback of the year? He was efficient and effective, but still a limited quarterback for an offense that took a backseat to the defense. Credit to CC, maybe, but I'm just saying Brad Johnson was nothing special in Tampa.

Yup. I don't care as much as you do about the pass:run ratio, and I think the offense was doomed the minute Manning went down. But we definitely did a lot worse than we should have, even given the situation. I personally don't think we should keep Clyde, not unless we're keeping Manning, which I hope we are.

We run nothing that resembles a west coast offense. I wish we did, but we don’t. Our offense traces back to the Don Coyell offense with the Chargers… More Joe Gibbs passing game than Bill Walsh. IF we had a WCO we wouldn’t have had a lot of the issues we had l

Collins was improving before he was concussed, but he still didn’t have the time to absorb enough of the offense. JC & CC could have done more of each of the QB’s to put them in better situations to succeed and they failed.

I didn’t say quarterback of the year, I said quarterback THE year that CC was the OC in Tampa, and had a far more productive year the next year with Gruden.

Yeah the offense was stunted without Manning, but the coaching staff could have made it better than it was. It was just a collection of mistakes with plenty to around.

[OJl]

I am not surprised that Clyde Christensen is still hanging on. And don't be surprised to see Clyde hang around IF the Colts hire a defensive guy as the new HC and Peyton Manning comes back. Clyde may or may not be much as a coach, but he knows the "check with me" offense that Peyton has perfected. It would make sense that they keep an OC who will know how to work with Manning and the offense.