Just my thoughts(To Coach Pagano)

[iLoveMyBoys]

It really hurts me to see Pagano go and for the way he is being treated. He was one of most winningest coaches in colts history and pulled off something not many other NFL head coaches could this year.

 

He deserves to stay in my opinion and the whole locker room is fully behind Pagono which is usually not the case for most head coaches on there way out. Really hope they surprise me tomorrow and fire grigson (notice he doesn't get a capital G instead of g, his own players dont even acknowledge him and maybe a reason why he cant reel in more flashier FAs)

 

I hope Coach Pagano reads this because i honestly love the guy and I've never even met him, I'm100% #ChuckStrong. 2nd most favorite coach after Dungy.

 

Sad to see you go man, love you and wish nothing but the best for you in the future.

[jbaron04]

Nice guy great motivator but has to happen , 

[gacoop1]

it's all about winning.  Let's face it, the HC should have known what he was getting into before taking an NFL head coaching position  It's not an easy task, they should expect this when they don't win it's not rocket scientist that if you don't win,  it requires the Head Coach to be on board always, taking criticism, scrutiny that's why they get the big bucks.  I don't feel sorry for them that's what they live for to coach  and become legendary someday just ask N Saban...

[buccolts]

18 minutes ago, gacoop1 said:

it's all about winning.  Let's face it, the HC should have known what he was getting into before taking an NFL head coaching position  It's not an easy task, they should expect this when they don't win it's not rocket scientist that if you don't win,  it requires the Head Coach to be on board always, taking criticism, scrutiny that's why they get the big bucks.  I don't feel sorry for them that's what they live for to coach  and become legendary someday just ask N Saban...

 

So, you think he's staying, or you think all coaches should be fired after any losing season?

You're not being clear.

[Superman]

Deserves to stay? Maybe.

 

Lots of arguments can be made in his favor, and the way they used the QBs today is one of them. Really good gameplan. The last time Josh Freeman started a game, it was after he had been in the building for 12 days, and he was awful. Comparatively, Freeman played great today. Using Lindley for the hurry-up stuff worked well, also; aside from his ugly underthrow, he looked like he had been running the offense all season. I've knocked Pagano for not scheming well, but he and his staff did today.

 

The real question that needs to be answered, though, is whether Pagano is the right guy to lead your team to championship contention year after year. And for all the arguments that can be made in his favor, none of them convince me that he can hang with the big guys in the NFL.

[iLoveMyBoys]

24 minutes ago, gacoop1 said:

it's all about winning.  Let's face it, the HC should have known what he was getting into before taking an NFL head coaching position  It's not an easy task, they should expect this when they don't win it's not rocket scientist that if you don't win,  it requires the Head Coach to be on board always, taking criticism, scrutiny that's why they get the big bucks.  I don't feel sorry for them that's what they live for to coach  and become legendary someday just ask N Saban...

Just saying he hasnt had a losing season here and missed the pkayoffs just once not to mention 3 playoff wins and also isn't allowed to coach like normal head coaches with grigson snaking him and still overcome unsual circumstances. 

 

Im gonna sude with the locker room on this one

[YourNextGM]

Andrew Luvk is the most important player,  and a new coach is needed for his growth.  

[bigt]

I'll side with the locker room as well.  There aren't any options out there that I like except Harbaugh and he isn't going any where.  Marvin Lewis is still in Cincinnatti, Rivera is still in Carolina, Tomlinson in still in Pittsburgh,etc and they've all missed the playoffs at some point.  But, for God's sake lets kick Pagano to the curb for one year of not making the playoffs.  Surely all the other 20 teams that missed the playoffs will fire their coaches as well.  Lets give Andrew his 3rd new coach in his 1st 5 years.  Luck has to be loving the continuity with this team.  Luck and Pep were a big reason this team missed the playoffs

[iLoveMyBoys]

11 minutes ago, Superman said:

Deserves to stay? Maybe.

 

Lots of arguments can be made in his favor, and the way they used the QBs today is one of them. Really good gameplan. The last time Josh Freeman started a game, it was after he had been in the building for 12 days, and he was awful. Comparatively, Freeman played great today. Using Lindley for the hurry-up stuff worked well, also; aside from his ugly underthrow, he looked like he had been running the offense all season. I've knocked Pagano for not scheming well, but he and his staff did today.

 

The real question that needs to be answered, though, is whether Pagano is the right guy to lead your team to championship contention year after year. And for all the arguments that can be made in his favor, none of them convince me that he can hang with the big guys in the NFL.

I believe he is being used as a scapegoat because he was offered an extension and because of all the media and hype that surrounded the team makes it all of a sudden ok to let him walk. 

 

NOW IF HE WOULD HAVE TAKEN THAT EXTENSION WE WOULDNT EVEN BE TALKING ABOUT THIS BECAUSE THEY CERTAINLY WOULDNT HAVE FIRED HIM AFTER THIS SEASON

[bigt]

4 minutes ago, YourNextGM said:

Andrew Luvk is the most important player,  and a new coach is needed for his growth.  

His name is Chud.

 

[ricker182]

24 minutes ago, buccolts said:

 

So, you think he's staying, or you think all coaches should be fired after any losing season?

You're not being clear.

Pagano didn't have a losing season after losing his stud QB for 9 games.   

I'd say that's a success.   

  

I don't think he's a great coach and he makes some bone headed decisions, but he isn't the only one to blame. 

[Superman]

2 minutes ago, IVORYsDAD said:

I believe he is being used as a scapegoat because he was offered an extension and because of all the media and hype that surrounded the team makes it all of a sudden ok to let him walk. 

 

NOW IF HE WOULD HAVE TAKEN THAT EXTENSION WE WOULDNT EVEN BE TALKING ABOUT THIS BECAUSE THEY CERTAINLY WOULDNT HAVE FIRED HIM AFTER THIS SEASON

 

I disagree. His contract status doesn't change anything that I mentioned before. Coaches get fired with years left on their contract all the time.

 

 

More ammo against...

[iLoveMyBoys]

6 minutes ago, YourNextGM said:

Andrew Luvk is the most important player,  and a new coach is needed for his growth.  

I think whats needed is for them to let Pagano hire his own staff because as quiet as kept Pagano is going to have plenty of options elsewhere. He has a very solid resume here for a coach coming in with no jead coaching experience

[DougDew]

5 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I disagree. His contract status doesn't change anything that I mentioned before. Coaches get fired with years left on their contract all the time.

 

 

More ammo against...

Just curious, what are "3-year playoff teams"?

[iLoveMyBoys]

4 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I disagree. His contract status doesn't change anything that I mentioned before. Coaches get fired with years left on their contract all the time.

 

 

More ammo against...

Just saying if he had another year left on his contract this season wouldnt have warrantied him being fired under unsual circumstances.(I'll bet my poker chip on it)

[Superman]

1 minute ago, DougDew said:

Just curious, what are "3-year playoff teams"?

 

I think it's teams that made the playoffs those three years, 2012-14.

 

Not really relevant, though. The Colts allowed 40+ points 10 times, 30+ points 16 times, and lost ten games by 17 or more. That's when they were a playoff team, setting aside the losses to Pittsburgh and Jacksonville this season (which were baaaaad).

 

The only saving grace is that they were good in one-score games, but quite a few of those came against bad teams in games that probably shouldn't have been one-score games to begin with.

[Superman]

2 minutes ago, IVORYsDAD said:

Just saying if he had another year left on his contract this season wouldnt have warrantied him being fired under unsual circumstances.(I'll bet my poker chip on it)

 

If's and buts... no way of telling.

 

But I don't think that Pagano accepting a one year extension last offseason would be saving him now. All things being equal, he's probably on the hot seat either way. My thinking is that his contract status is a reflection of Irsay's feelings about Pagano. I don't think he'll be letting Pagano walk just because it's convenient. I think it's because he doesn't believe Pagano is 'the guy.' 

 

I don't, either. And that sucks, because I like Pagano and his approach.

[Bird dog]

31 minutes ago, Superman said:

Deserves to stay? Maybe.

 

Lots of arguments can be made in his favor, and the way they used the QBs today is one of them. Really good gameplan. The last time Josh Freeman started a game, it was after he had been in the building for 12 days, and he was awful. Comparatively, Freeman played great today. Using Lindley for the hurry-up stuff worked well, also; aside from his ugly underthrow, he looked like he had been running the offense all season. I've knocked Pagano for not scheming well, but he and his staff did today.

 

The real question that needs to be answered, though, is whether Pagano is the right guy to lead your team to championship contention year after year. And for all the arguments that can be made in his favor, none of them convince me that he can hang with the big guys in the NFL.

Let's not forget Tennessee is the worst NFL team!

[DougDew]

5 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I think it's teams that made the playoffs those three years, 2012-14.

 

Not really relevant, though. The Colts allowed 40+ points 10 times, 30+ points 16 times, and lost ten games by 17 or more. That's when they were a playoff team, setting aside the losses to Pittsburgh and Jacksonville this season (which were baaaaad).

 

The only saving grace is that they were good in one-score games, but quite a few of those came against bad teams in games that probably shouldn't have been one-score games to begin with.

I think it basically supports what a lot of people who watch the games conclude.  The Colts can fight for wins against good teams.  But they hardly ever blow out any team and get blown out fairly frequently by anybody.  Lost to St Louis 38-9 at home and it wasn't even that close of a game.

[crazycolt1]

5 minutes ago, Bird dog said:

Let's not forget Tennessee is the worst NFL team!

Lets not forget the Colts were down to 4th and 5th string QBs. Freeman was not even in the NFL this time last week.

[Superman]

5 minutes ago, Bird dog said:

Let's not forget Tennessee is the worst NFL team!

 

The Colts used their 4th and 5th QBs, guys who signed with the team less than a week ago. I don't want to hear about how bad the Titans are. Freeman and Lindley being able to perform with even moderate efficiency is impressive. Lindley's drive at the end of the first half was outstanding.

[Bird dog]

12 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

The Colts used their 4th and 5th QBs, guys who signed with the team less than a week ago. I don't want to hear about how bad the Titans are. Freeman and Lindley being able to perform with even moderate efficiency is impressive. Lindley's drive at the end of the first half was outstanding.

Yes I saw that, but your saying Pagano  is the answer? The game plan today was good, but was it Chuds or Pagano?

[Superman]

4 minutes ago, Bird dog said:

Yes I saw that, but your saying Pagano  is the answer? The game plan today was good, but was it Chuds or Pagano?

 

Doesn't matter to me who's gameplan it was. It's a reflection of Pagano's coaching, since it's his staff. I don't need my head coach to come up with all the good ideas, I just need him to recognize the good ideas and allow his staff to implement them. We all know Pagano is a defensive guy anyways.

 

The opposite is true. Bad offensive gameplans are a reflection on the head coach as well.

 

But no, I'm NOT saying Pagano is the answer. The last paragraph in the first post of mine that you quoted should make that pretty obvious. 

[peytonmanning18]

2 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Doesn't matter to me who's gameplan it was. It's a reflection of Pagano's coaching, since it's his staff. I don't need my head coach to come up with all the good ideas, I just need him to recognize the good ideas and allow his staff to implement them. We all know Pagano is a defensive guy anyways.

 

The opposite is true. Bad offensive gameplans are a reflection on the head coach as well.

 

But no, I'm NOT saying Pagano is the answer. The last paragraph in the first post of mine that you quoted should make that pretty obvious. 

 

Even when Grigson is meddling in everything and calling the shots?  

[Superman]

1 minute ago, peytonmanning18 said:

 

Even when Grigson is meddling in everything and calling the shots?  

 

Yes. As much as that's a reflection of Grigson, it's also a reflection of Pagano. 

 

And I doubt the issue between Grigson and Pagano is half as bad as is being reported.

[peytonmanning18]

3 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Yes. As much as that's a reflection of Grigson, it's also a reflection of Pagano. 

 

And I doubt the issue between Grigson and Pagano is half as bad as is being reported.

 

I refuse to believe that it was Pagano's idea to keep running Trent Richardson out there.  By all accounts Pep Hamilton was forced on Pagano and only reported to Grigson.  You're underestimating how hard it is to work when you have no support from anyone above you in the organization.  Chuck Pagano should be a coach of the year candidate for the miracle he pulled off this year.  The fact that we are debating whether or not he should coach the Colts going forward is a disgrace.  

[bababooey]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

I think it's teams that made the playoffs those three years, 2012-14.

 

Not really relevant, though. The Colts allowed 40+ points 10 times, 30+ points 16 times, and lost ten games by 17 or more. That's when they were a playoff team, setting aside the losses to Pittsburgh and Jacksonville this season (which were baaaaad).

 

The only saving grace is that they were good in one-score games, but quite a few of those came against bad teams in games that probably shouldn't have been one-score games to begin with.

We were actually the anomaly in one score games in terms of winning them. Bill Barnwell had an article on that for Grantland sometime in the past year. Ironically the one team that is an anomaly for losing almost all of their close games has won 2 SBs in the last decade.

 

edit: http://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-nfl-statistical-crystal-ball-what-2014s-numbers-can-tell-us-about-2015/

[dw49]

9 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Yes. As much as that's a reflection of Grigson, it's also a reflection of Pagano. 

 

And I doubt the issue between Grigson and Pagano is half as bad as is being reported.

 

 

I'm pretty neutral on this whole situation. I can see him staying and I can see him being replaced. Same for Grigson.

 

What I'd like to say in this thread is judging from Irsay's facial expressions in the locker room , I'm trending toward thinking Pagano is history.

[Solon]

I like Pagano, but he gets outcoached too easily. We also have a tendency to look unprepared to start games. He's a excellent 2nd half adjustment guy, but we shouldn't have to wait till we're down 10+ during halftime to come out looking like a playoff team.

[Superman]

Just now, peytonmanning18 said:

 

I refuse to believe that it was Pagano's idea to keep running Trent Richardson out there.  By all accounts Pep Hamilton was forced on Pagano and only reported to Grigson.  You're underestimating how hard it is to work when you have no support from anyone above you in the organization.  Chuck Pagano should be a coach of the year candidate for the miracle he pulled off this year.  The fact that we are debating whether or not he should coach the Colts going forward is a disgrace.  

 

Let's just start with the bolded: Just because you refuse to believe something doesn't make it not true. 

 

More relevant, I'm not underestimating any potential issues between Pagano and Grigson. My issues with Pagano's coaching are primarily about things that are completely within his control, even if everything that's been reported is 100% accurate. For example, the fact that this team can't run a simple screen play for the last three seasons is a direct reflection on the coaching staff. The fact that this team got shredded over the top by the Steelers (twice) and the Jaguars is a reflection on Pagano, the head coach with the defensive backs background. Game management, challenges, rotations, gameplans, etc., have been questionable at times. The team being blown out more than any other playoff team is a reflection on coaching. 

 

And again, it's not that I'm eager to run Pagano out of town. My opinion is that he isn't good enough to lead the team to championship contention every year, and I think we have enough book on him to make that kind of determination. I think those doubts are why Irsay didn't lock him up prior to the season, and he didn't do anything to quell those doubts this season. Like I said, there's lots of room to defend Pagano, but I still don't think he's the guy. So let's move on.

[Superman]

5 minutes ago, dw49 said:

 

 

I'm pretty neutral on this whole situation. I can see him staying and I can see him being replaced. Same for Grigson.

 

What I'd like to say in this thread is judging from Irsay's facial expressions in the locker room , I'm trending toward thinking Pagano is history.

 

I've been thinking Pagano is gone since the Steelers game. I didn't see Irsay's face except for a couple of times, but I didn't think it said anything about Pagano; you're probably better at reading faces than I am. The fact that he was in the locker room at all when I think his mind is made up already is kind of interesting to me. 

[Superman]

7 minutes ago, bababooey said:

We were actually the anomaly in one score games in terms of winning them. Bill Barnwell had an article on that for Grantland sometime in the past year. Ironically the one team that is an anomaly for losing almost all of their close games has won 2 SBs in the last decade.

 

edit: http://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-nfl-statistical-crystal-ball-what-2014s-numbers-can-tell-us-about-2015/

 

Yup. It was an anomaly from the very beginning, going 7-1 in 2012. It kind of evened out down the line, but the Colts have been very good in one-score games. 

 

But against good teams, the Colts rarely stay within one score, soo...

[krunk]

Ultimately if Pagano is fired and it's very likely it seems,  I believe Irsay and Grigson overall felt like in each playoff loss the issues were majority coaching based more than they were player personnel based. The lack of adjustments,  the bad game plans.  Opponents such as the Patriots came with the same exact game plans from previous matchups and we responded with the same exact bad game plans that got us beat in the first place.   Irsay I'm certain sees this kind of stuff and says "With the talent we have on this offense and some of the other guys we have, If we had better coaching in these match ups we honestly should have had at least one Super Bowl appearance by now"  Add this with some of the other ugly losses we've had and you can kind of see why Chuck got the offer he got from Irsay.  

 

People can say what they want about Grigson meddling, but once Holder stated that he(Grigson) doesn't do anything without Irsays approval that told me Irsay doesn't trust the leadership of the coach even if the players do love him and buy into his message.  The coaching has to match the message, and I can't say it always did in key situations.  I'm still cool with him coming back as long as we get a stronger nucleus around him, but after giving it some thought I can't exactly sit here and say I don't know what Irsay is tripping about. 

[ColtRider]

45 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Yup. It was an anomaly from the very beginning, going 7-1 in 2012. It kind of evened out down the line, but the Colts have been very good in one-score games. 

 

But against good teams, the Colts rarely stay within one score, soo...

 

And therein lies one of the Colts' problems with this last sentence. IMO, Pagano is released. Just as you have stated on many occasions, he can't hang with the big boys. I agree. I really haven't said too much regarding his status until now. Chuck is a great guy, no doubt. However, his methods of coaching this team with regards to mistakes that seemingly happen over & over each game i.e., penalties & turnovers is waaaay too much for anyone to soak unto saturation.

 

Take a look at this year's TOs & penalties alone. The cause of losing several games at the very least. I understand and give much credit to the prior 3 seasons accomplishments @ 11-5. Andrew surely helped. 8 weeks without him this season didn't help. So, the Colts & Irsay find themselves at a crossroad. Take the fork that points to a more seasoned, disciplined, hard-headed, no frills, no excuses, talk softly and carry a big stick HC. That kind of HC will fill his staff with what it takes to win football games and have a say so with player selection in a variety of venues. This is just a small slice of what I've seen over the last 4 years. There has also been a lot of good things as well.

 

But, the name of the game is winning & what have you done for me lately league. 

 

 

[YourNextGM]

3 hours ago, IVORYsDAD said:

I think whats needed is for them to let Pagano hire his own staff because as quiet as kept Pagano is going to have plenty of options elsewhere. He has a very solid resume here for a coach coming in with no jead coaching experience

Honestly,  Pagano is an average coach that just lost the division to Brandon Weeden and Bryan Hoyer.  On top of all of the primetine blowouts and getting embarrassed by Bill Belichick yearly.  So many coaches would be an upgrade. 

 

And who cares what the players want? Maybe thats the problem.  They played like crap too many times this yr.  Maybe they'll play harder for a tougher coach.  

 

And I blame Pagano for Grigson.  What respectable coach is going to allow a gm to interfere so much? 

 

Chuck seems nice,  I wish him the best in his next job.  Can't wait to get a real head coach. 

[dw49]

10 hours ago, Superman said:

 

I've been thinking Pagano is gone since the Steelers game. I didn't see Irsay's face except for a couple of times, but I didn't think it said anything about Pagano; you're probably better at reading faces than I am. The fact that he was in the locker room at all when I think his mind is made up already is kind of interesting to me. 

 

Me too.

 

I'm not any expert on ready body language or facial expressions but he looked very uninspired and unhappy during that Pagano speech. Looked to me that he would have been just as happy losing and getting those 5-6 lost spots in the draft order. BTW.. was just as I posted in another thread ..a win would cost as much as the difference between 12th and 18th. 

 

But you have to give the team and staff credit for the last 2 weeks. Also it's much more fun to win than lose.

 

I'm thinking maybe Jon Gruden ? If Payton , lots of competition and will be draft compensation there. Your thoughts ?

[Superman]

2 hours ago, dw49 said:

 

Me too.

 

I'm not any expert on ready body language or facial expressions but he looked very uninspired and unhappy during that Pagano speech. Looked to me that he would have been just as happy losing and getting those 5-6 lost spots in the draft order. BTW.. was just as I posted in another thread ..a win would cost as much as the difference between 12th and 18th. 

 

But you have to give the team and staff credit for the last 2 weeks. Also it's much more fun to win than lose.

 

I'm thinking maybe Jon Gruden ? If Payton , lots of competition and will be draft compensation there. Your thoughts ?

 

I guess I could live with giving up a 2nd for Payton, which is what NFL Network is reporting it's going to cost to get him. But he has a big issue with hiring a good defensive coordinator (who doesn't bounty opposing QBs). I guess nobody's perfect.

 

I don't think any conflict Irsay had yesterday was related to draft position. He's smarter than being worried about 6 spots in the draft. I think, if anything, it would have been about seeing how much the team wants Pagano to stay, even though Irsay appears ready to move on from him. 

[OffensivelyPC]

7 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I guess I could live with giving up a 2nd for Payton, which is what NFL Network is reporting it's going to cost to get him. But he has a big issue with hiring a good defensive coordinator (who doesn't bounty opposing QBs). I guess nobody's perfect.

 

I don't think any conflict Irsay had yesterday was related to draft position. He's smarter than being worried about 6 spots in the draft. I think, if anything, it would have been about seeing how much the team wants Pagano to stay, even though Irsay appears ready to move on from him. 

If Irsay had Payton keep Chud as a condition of his being brought here, I think tthat would be ideal.  At the very least, it would be a good starting point.  I think Manusky is at least an above average DC.  I'd love to see what he could do with a playmaking pass rusher.

[Superman]

5 minutes ago, OffensivelyPC said:

If Irsay had Payton keep Chud as a condition of his being brought here, I think tthat would be ideal.  At the very least, it would be a good starting point.  I think Manusky is at least an above average DC.  I'd love to see what he could do with a playmaking pass rusher.

 

I'm done with Manusky, to be honest. I don't blame the defensive issues on him, but I haven't seen anything encouraging from him in four years. He had a playmaking pass rusher in 2013, and the defense was still barely average, with plenty of issues. I think we can do better, for sure. I'd like to see Pettine, actually.

[chad72]

4 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I'm done with Manusky, to be honest. I don't blame the defensive issues on him, but I haven't seen anything encouraging from him in four years. He had a playmaking pass rusher in 2013, and the defense was still barely average, with plenty of issues. I think we can do better, for sure. I'd like to see Pettine, actually.

 

Or Jim Schwartz?

 

It is the kind of guy Sean Payton likes to hire - Gregg Williams, Rob Ryan, fiery coaches, some with and some without enough good results.