Can we stop blaming Whalen now?

[Narcosys]

We have all these whalen haters, but who got beat deep so many times or gave up critical PI's?

I know you guys know this one

[dudeski]

Players are not taught to question the playbook. Otherwise you have everyone out there doing their own thing because they think their common sense is better.

Whalen knows the playbook he follows the playbook.

Why did you snap the ball? Because the dang playbook said that if the guy gets under center that's what I should do.

It's not Whalen's call as to if the ball is snapped. The playbook told him to snap it.

And someone telling him not to snap the ball right in front of the opposing players he probably thought that was a trick because why in the heck would you tell the other team what you are doing?

because snapping the ball leads to what happened

So don't snap the ball

[dudeski]

This thread is ridiculous. It's Whalen's fault. I don't care who has a man crush on him.

exactly

[dudeski]

Nine of our players line up illegally, right in front of our coaches, yet nobody thinks to call time out.

But of course... It's all Griff Whalen's fault!

why call a time out when whalen was told by Anderson to not snap the ball? They didn't think he would snap the ball

[RockThatBlue]

the play is history, let it rest, the question is, what will grif do the next time we run this play?

If Pagano ran this play again Irsay should walk down to the sidelines and tell Pagano to take a hike.

[RockThatBlue]

why call a time out when whalen was told by Anderson to not snap the ball? They didn't think he would snap the ball

Because calling a timeout is the logical thing to do when your team is lined up incorrectly. Teams call timeouts for things like that all the time.

[dudeski]

Because calling a timeout is the logical thing to do when your team is lined up incorrectly. Teams call timeouts for things like that all the time.

the plan was to take the penalty. So it didn't matter

[RockThatBlue]

the plan was to take the penalty. So it didn't matter

We weren't flagged for delay of game though. If Pagano didn't notice they lined up incorrectly then what was he looking at on the sidelines? A timeout should have been called. It could have saved a disaster. Too bad.

[Gavin]

Maybe its time to rename the team the Indianapolis Miscommunicators

[dudeski]

We weren't flagged for delay of game though. If Pagano didn't notice they lined up incorrectly then what was he looking at on the sidelines? A timeout should have been called. It could have saved a disaster. Too bad.

we didn't get a delay of game, because whalen snapped the ball

[azcolt]

I will agree to not blame Whalen if we can all agree Pagano would make a fine high school head coach.

[tfunky14]

He never practiced the play. Does it need spelled out to you? How do we know that he for sure knew to not snap it? He didn't even know the code words.

It's called football IQ, learn it.

[DougDew]

It's called football IQ, learn it.

Just asking here.  How do you think he was supposed to know how many defenders were on the field?  He was bent over playing center and in no position to know for himself, in a reliable way at least.  Anybody else on the field was in a better position to know than him.

[lollygagger8]

The coaches put the guy that never practiced the play in the most important position of that play. 

 

[EllissonWatson]

So it tells me that the coaching staff did not properly prepare the players.

[King Colt]

In every game there are X number of plays used to build a lead. No one play has ever lost any game ever and the reason is if the team had accumulated more points the "play that lost the game" would be just another play. "That play cost them the game" is nonsense and football is probably the best example of that cry baby excuse. What would the rhetoric be if the Colts had been up by 14 when the fake punt happened? How many three and outs did the Colts have? Any dropped passes? Any lost yards plays? Any throw the ball out of bounds plays? Any rush attempts for a loss or no gain? The game is four quarters, not one play.

  

[Coffeedrinker]

why call a time out when whalen was told by Anderson to not snap the ball? They didn't think he would snap the ball

So if Luck calls a pass play in the huddle and then audibles to a run play, should Gore not take the hand off because that is not what Luck said before?

 

It's the same thing, Colt may have said, "don't snap the ball."  But as soon as he put his hands under center, according to what Pat McAfee says is in the playbook, he is then telling Whalen to snap the ball.

[CoachLite]

the play is history, let it rest, the question is, what will grif do the next time we run this play?

WHAT!!! There is going to be a next time?

[ColtStronger]

I hope the mods let this stay up as I think it needs its own thread. But the guy who originally was supposed to be the center was Clayton Geathers. That's right, we used Whalen who never even practiced this ONCE in practice. It makes me question even more why the hell did we run this play? Just totally inexcusable by this coaching staff.

http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/nfl/colts/2015/10/20/indianapolis-colts-fake-punt-griff-whalen-colt-anderson-clayton-geathers/74273206

Of course he wasn't suppose to snap the ball.  Even if you don't know ANYTHING about football, you at least know to NOT snap the football in that situation.  I don't care if Whalen didn't practice the play.  He knew the intent of the play (to catch the defense in a substitute, which didn't happen), but even if he didn't know the intent, why would you snap the football on a 1 man line with 5 Patriots ready to sack you?  It's common sense.  Sure blame Pagano for putting him in that situation, but it's not Pagano's fault!

 

It's like blaming a parent for a punk 14 year old kid stealing.  I'm pretty sure a kid at that age knows stealing is bad!  Of course, the parent should've raised the kid better, but that doesn't mean it's the parents fault. 

 

Griff Whalen is a professional football player.  I know he's seen X's and O's before, and I'm fairly certain he passed basic math classes in elementary school (He did go to Stanford).  That's enough brain capacity to sniff out the poor judgment of snapping the football!

[18Manning]

He shouldn't have snapped the ball.

But... The coaches should have never put him in the game to run a trick play he had never practiced.

Coaches screwed him on this play.

 

Dumb play to call in the first place, even dumber to use someone that hasn't practiced the play.  

[ColtStronger]

So if Luck calls a pass play in the huddle and then audibles to a run play, should Gore not take the hand off because that is not what Luck said before?

 

It's the same thing, Colt may have said, "don't snap the ball."  But as soon as he put his hands under center, according to what Pat McAfee says is in the playbook, he is then telling Whalen to snap the ball.

However, if your sitting at an intersection and the light turns green, but you happen to notice (blatantly) there is a semi speeding out of control entering the intersection, do you still go because you have the right of way?  These players are professional, and can  be held accountable for their actions!  This is one of those cases.  Sure Pagano shouldn't have called the play, and Colt shouldn't have been ready to take a snap, but don't pull the trigger if you don't mean to fire the gun!

[ColtStronger]

NOW I'm done ranting about the embarrassing play we all witnessed that contributed to the loss against the Pats.  If you want to play the blame game, go ahead!  Understand what common sense is though, and how it translates to the football field, before you point a finger!

[BleedBlu8792]

So if Luck calls a pass play in the huddle and then audibles to a run play, should Gore not take the hand off because that is not what Luck said before?

 

It's the same thing, Colt may have said, "don't snap the ball."  But as soon as he put his hands under center, according to what Pat McAfee says is in the playbook, he is then telling Whalen to snap the ball.

 

Colt was saying this as he was under center, supposedly... On top of that Colt had his hands underneath center for a good 2-3 seconds before Whalen snapped the ball.

[Coffeedrinker]

However, if your sitting at an intersection and the light turns green, but you happen to notice (blatantly) there is a semi speeding out of control entering the intersection, do you still go because you have the right of way?  These players are professional, and can  be held accountable for their actions!  This is one of those cases.  Sure Pagano shouldn't have called the play, and Colt shouldn't have been ready to take a snap, but don't pull the trigger if you don't mean to fire the gun!

So, to make you point you have to use an example outside of football?  You example is not relevant because the situations are not even remotely similar.

 

On the point, I agree, don't pull the trigger is you don't mean to fire the gun but again it's the same as above, the two situations are so far apart you cannot use one to effectively make a point about the other.

[Coffeedrinker]

Colt was saying this as he was under center, supposedly... On top of that Colt had his hands underneath center for a good 2-3 seconds before Whalen snapped the ball.

So?  Does the playbook say, " if player gets under center snap the ball, unless the player is saying 'Don't snap the ball'."?

 

So to ensure that Whalen not snap the ball, all Colt had to do was not get under center.

[BlueShoe]

[csmopar]

because snapping the ball leads to what happened

So don't snap the ball

Are you really still on that.....

GRIFF HAD NO IDEA HE WASN'T SUPPOSED TO SNAP IT!

[HoosierColt]

So I just mostly lurk here but had to weigh in on this. Griff has some blame here. There was a lot of confusion going on but he could have made a better judgement of the situation and not snapped it. That said, the play was designed for him to snap it if given the signal, which he was. So yeah, could he have been smarter there? Sure but he was following the play as designed in the playbook, and we're learning now that he wasn't in on some crucial last-second changes thrown in (taking the delay of game penalty). So I don't fault Griff here though, sure, it would have been nice if he were a little more heads-up and thinking through what was happening. 

 

That all said, he should have NEVER been put into that situation. The play should have not been called, and who in the hell on the sidelines missed calling time out when the whole line was lined up off the line of scrimmage??? In my mind, there is way more blame to be placed on coaching for not calling that time out than there should be on Griff. I can't believe that's not being discussed more in the media rather than Griff hiking the ball!! As has been stated, even if Colt had managed to pick up the first down, it would have been called back on penalty. Much larger error on not getting the timeout called IMHO.

 

Then, on top of it all, it was a colossal error on Pagano's part calling the play to begin with. Just so many reasons why that was stupid.

 

So, in short sure Griff bears some responsibility here but not that much, and not nearly as much as the staff. Not even close.

[Valpo2004]

Of course he wasn't suppose to snap the ball.  Even if you don't know ANYTHING about football, you at least know to NOT snap the football in that situation.  I don't care if Whalen didn't practice the play.  He knew the intent of the play (to catch the defense in a substitute, which didn't happen), but even if he didn't know the intent, why would you snap the football on a 1 man line with 5 Patriots ready to sack you?  It's common sense.  Sure blame Pagano for putting him in that situation, but it's not Pagano's fault!

 

It's like blaming a parent for a punk 14 year old kid stealing.  I'm pretty sure a kid at that age knows stealing is bad!  Of course, the parent should've raised the kid better, but that doesn't mean it's the parents fault. 

 

Griff Whalen is a professional football player.  I know he's seen X's and O's before, and I'm fairly certain he passed basic math classes in elementary school (He did go to Stanford).  That's enough brain capacity to sniff out the poor judgment of snapping the football!

 

BECAUSE THE THOUGHT THE GUY BEHIND HIM CAUGHT TOO MANY MEN ON THE FIELD AND HE WAS SNAPPING IT TO GET THE PENALTY.

 

You don't get the too many men on the field penalty unless you snap the ball with more then 11 guys in the field of play.  And if there are too many men on the field it doesn't matter what happens after you snap it, just that you've snapped it.

 

The guy behind him is suppose to check that and if he spots it, give the pre-determined signal (going under center) to snap the ball.

 

The guy gave him the pre-determined signal and he snapped the ball.

[Valpo2004]

I'm aware of all of that. Doesn't change the fact that he wasn't supposed to snap the ball. Whether from practice and preparation or on the basis of common sense, there is no way to justify him snapping the ball.

 

I feel bad for him, because he was obviously put in a bad situation, and it's obviously an oversight calling this play when he wasn't aware of the new wrinkle, but he still shouldn't have snapped the ball. And if he doesn't, worst case scenario is that we take the penalty and punt. By way of contrast, if he does snap -- even when logic tells you not to -- the worst case scenario is what we saw. 

 

Common sense says that the guy got under center and gave him the pre-determined signal to snap the ball.  Common sense says that signal must only have come because the guy saw too many men on the field.

 

Common sense also says that no one gives the play away in front of the opposition.  

 

It would be like running on to the field and yelling "Run the statue of liberty!!!" so that everyone including the opposing team could hear it.  Think they will fall for that fake pass??

[Valpo2004]

To the bolded: Because Colt was well aware the Pats hadn't substituted anyone. He, and Griff as well, had the best field of view to see that the Patriots didn't bring anyone on or off the field.

 

Griff was hunched over the ball, his view was the worst of anyone's.  

[Gavin]

Its really pretty simple.....Their was a breakdown in communication on 3 different levels

 

Special Teams coach should have pulled Colt and Whalen aside to discuss the code words and how things are supposed to go down

 

Coach Pagano should have made sure this happened

 

Both coaches should have known Whalen had not practiced the play and was not privy to the code words

Coach Pagano should not have ok'd that play to begin with and hung Whalen out to dry like he did

 

Once Whalen and Colt were out on that field(Though again they should not have been. Your not going to send a FS out to play QB with no experience or no practice so common sense dictates your not going to send a WR to possibly take a snap like a QB without him ever doing it before) Colt is the unquestioned leader of the special teams and has to make sure his group is on the same page. He did not so they were not...Check and then double check

[tfunky14]

Just asking here.  How do you think he was supposed to know how many defenders were on the field?  He was bent over playing center and in no position to know for himself, in a reliable way at least.  Anybody else on the field was in a better position to know than him.

No offense here, but your asking about a player (Whalen) who:

-most likely been playing football since he was 5

-who played at Stanford (extremely high IQ school and players)

-who is in his 4th NFL season

 

 

again your question is?

[BleedBlu8792]

Griff was hunched over the ball, his view was the worst of anyone's.  

 He came down from the Pats sideline - he was the gunner on that side... He could see if anyone was running off the field and no one did.

[Narcosys]

 

Dont you know, nobody is going to listen to this anyways.

[18Manning]

In every game there are X number of plays used to build a lead. No one play has ever lost any game ever and the reason is if the team had accumulated more points the "play that lost the game" would be just another play. "That play cost them the game" is nonsense and football is probably the best example of that cry baby excuse. What would the rhetoric be if the Colts had been up by 14 when the fake punt happened? How many three and outs did the Colts have? Any dropped passes? Any lost yards plays? Any throw the ball out of bounds plays? Any rush attempts for a loss or no gain? The game is four quarters, not one play.

 

I get what you're saying, but it's an accumulation of each single play through 4 quarters. So, one play can make a difference. i.e. Seattle losing the SB. If Seattle didn't run what is another stupid play, I think they win the SB. It's about who has the most points when the bell rings regardless of how/when you got the points.

[SurfinKal]

LOL

 

First, yes, the penalties would offset, which sucks.

 

Second, Pagano should be fired because the punt team didn't line up properly? Wow. 

Yes he should! Especially when he is standing right next to them. If the penalties would off-set, then why call the play? You cannot catch someone with too many men on the field when your players arent lined up correctly to get the call.

 

Why is that so hard to understand?

[-JJ-]

In every game there are X number of plays used to build a lead. No one play has ever lost any game ever and the reason is if the team had accumulated more points the "play that lost the game" would be just another play. "That play cost them the game" is nonsense and football is probably the best example of that cry baby excuse. What would the rhetoric be if the Colts had been up by 14 when the fake punt happened? How many three and outs did the Colts have? Any dropped passes? Any lost yards plays? Any throw the ball out of bounds plays? Any rush attempts for a loss or no gain? The game is four quarters, not one play.

Great post and could be applied here over the years on all the "ifs and could have's" posts.

 

I would just add once you insert a difference in the "if" play then what follows will usually change too.

Its not like insert the "if" and everything else that follows remains the same.

 

Maybe you should tm your post, copy it and save for use in later cases 

[#12.]

Blame whoever, it doesn't matter.

In the end, though, Whalen has a much better shot at still being with this team in 2016 than Chuck does.

[RockThatBlue]

No offense here, but your asking about a player (Whalen) who:

-most likely been playing football since he was 5

-who played at Stanford (extremely high IQ school and players)

-who is in his 4th NFL season

again your question is?

What does any of this have to do with Griff not being able to see the field?