P. Manning this season

[Superman]

Very disingenuous of you to hand pick one line and use it as you did. It's very obvious that I mean you and others are saying it's a given he'll have enough left in the tank to be a very good QB in 2015. 

 

Here's the whole of it including what followed the line you cherry picked.."What Im disagreeing on is most are pretty much saying he will be an effective QB in 2015. What I'm saying is it's very possible the lost arm strength and injuries that older athletes are more prone to could just make him at best average. I did not predict anything."

 

 

Ohhh.. for the 23rd time , I did not say "he couldn't play at a high level" , I said since he's going to be 40 maybe he won't . I'm sorry you can't see the difference between one saying something is posible and one stating it as opinion.

 

We've gone way off here. I took what you said to mean that you don't believe he'll be effective. If that's not what you meant, then I misunderstood.

 

And I guess I still misunderstand, based on the post and response below:

 

None of us can tell the future, but I think Manning will be fine in 2015. I know he's nearly 40 and all that, but I don't think his age is a significant factor. If he gets hurt, that changes things, but he can still throw, and he's still able to baffle defenses despite being the least mobile QB in the NFL. I don't expect him to go breaking records again, but I don't see him suddenly not being able to play the position.

 

We'll agree to disagree on this one. From what I've seen and read , older athletes can "suddenly" lose it. Plus I've seen a decline of arm strength and we also saw a nagging injury last year. 

 

You brought up his age; I said I think he'll be fine; you said "agree to disagree." It's all made me believe that you don't think it's likely that he'll be effective in 2015, because of his age. (That's why I said it felt like a prediction.) If that's not where you stand, then you got off the freeway way before I did.

[Gramz]

I never count him out. He's certainly surpassed what many thought he would do after his neck injury and surgeries.

I agree with what a few others have said here, that father time is catching up and upon him.

Doesn't matter to me. He'll always be my favorite, on and off the field for the excitement and integrity and the way he's always approached the game, the fans his coaches and fellow players.

[dw49]

We've gone way off here. I took what you said to mean that you don't believe he'll be effective. If that's not what you meant, then I misunderstood.

 

And I guess I still misunderstand, based on the post and response below:

 

 

 

You brought up his age; I said I think he'll be fine; you said "agree to disagree." It's all made me believe that you don't think it's likely that he'll be effective in 2015, because of his age. (That's why I said it felt like a prediction.) If that's not where you stand, then you got off the freeway way before I did.

This is what I "disagreed" with .....you said

 

"None of us can tell the future, but I think Manning will be fine in 2015. I know he's nearly 40 and all that, but I don't think his age is a significant factor. If he gets hurt, that changes things, but he can still throw, and he's still able to baffle defenses despite being the least mobile QB in the NFL. I don't expect him to go breaking records again, but I don't see him suddenly not being able to play the position."

 

 

​You don't think being 40 is a significant factor and I think it is. That is what I disagreed with and funny you think differently as what you quoted me on was directly below you post I quoted above.

That said I never predicted he would fall apart in 2015.  My first post in this thread said that  "no one can predict how Manning will do in 2015 . Hardly looks like a prediction to me. But I do get confused on these CA freeways as they have like 5-6 lanes.

[Superman]

This is what I "disagreed" with .....you said

 

"None of us can tell the future, but I think Manning will be fine in 2015. I know he's nearly 40 and all that, but I don't think his age is a significant factor. If he gets hurt, that changes things, but he can still throw, and he's still able to baffle defenses despite being the least mobile QB in the NFL. I don't expect him to go breaking records again, but I don't see him suddenly not being able to play the position."

 

 

​You don't think being 40 is a significant factor and I think it is. That is what I disagreed with and funny you think differently as what you quoted me on was directly below you post I quoted above.

That said I never predicted he would fall apart in 2015.  My first post in this thread said that  "no one can predict how Manning will do in 2015 . Hardly looks like a prediction to me. But I do get confused on these CA freeways as they have like 5-6 lanes.

 

If it's only a general possibility that his age will derail him in 2015, then it's not a significant factor, IMO. Because of his style of QBing, his reduced reliance on his arm and greater use of his legs and core, and his mental ability, plus the Broncos looking to make their run game more effective, I don't think his age is going to be an issue.

 

The possibility remains that he'll suddenly look like he's nearly 40. But given how he was able to navigate having to rebuild his throwing mechanics on his way to 37 TDs and 68% passing in 2012, I think he'll still be effective. Not record breaking, but good enough to lead his team into the playoffs and have a chance to do something once they get there.

[dw49]

If it's only a general possibility that his age will derail him in 2015, then it's not a significant factor, IMO. Because of his style of QBing, his reduced reliance on his arm and greater use of his legs and core, and his mental ability, plus the Broncos looking to make their run game more effective, I don't think his age is going to be an issue.

 

The possibility remains that he'll suddenly look like he's nearly 40. But given how he was able to navigate having to rebuild his throwing mechanics on his way to 37 TDs and 68% passing in 2012, I think he'll still be effective. Not record breaking, but good enough to lead his team into the playoffs and have a chance to do something once they get there.

 

 

This is where we disagree. You feel that the has special attributes (could be true) that will enable him to be very good at age 40. Almost 40.. not really that old. I feel it's a very significant factor when I look at other 40 year old athletes . So while you guys are giving him the benefit of the doubt , I'm more wait and see.

 

Just for nothing but my wife was beautiful at 62. She looked maybe 45. She's 64 now and although still very pretty she looks 60. I could do 10 chin ups at 58 and around maybe 2 at 59-60. Obviously my wife's face and an old man's strength have nothing to do with Peyton Manning's 2015 season. But I think all the old guys and gals on this board can attest to age robbing you really good in sometimes what is a small window.

 

Go Colts...

[Superman]

This is where we disagree. You feel that the has special attributes (could be true) that will enable him to be very good at age 40. Almost 40.. not really that old. I feel it's a very significant factor when I look at other 40 year old athletes . So while you guys are giving him the benefit of the doubt , I'm more wait and see.

 

Just for nothing but my wife was beautiful at 62. She looked maybe 45. She's 64 now and although still very pretty she looks 60. I could do 10 chin ups at 58 and around maybe 2 at 59-60. Obviously my wife's face and an old man's strength have nothing to do with Peyton Manning's 2015 season. But I think all the old guys and gals on this board can attest to age robbing you really good in sometimes what is a small window.

 

Go Colts...

 

All good points. I think we're back on the same freeway. My stance is based on the fact that Manning isn't very reliant on the physical attributes that generally diminish as a player ages -- speed, strength, quick twitch athleticism -- and the fact that he played through significant injury at the end of last season and still wasn't really ineffective (although not the Peyton Manning we're used to). I think the Broncos would love to win 12+ games with Manning putting up Flacco-like numbers and a strong run game. That's essentially how they won back to back titles with Elway getting old. 

 

Speaking of Elway, he was a completely different kind of QB and playmaker than Manning. He was a career 57% passer who thrived on getting out of the pocket and extending plays with his legs. He only hit 60% or more three times in his 16 year career; Manning hasn't been below 65% since 2001. When you compare Elway's age 37 season with Manning's, you see two different guys. I'm not saying Manning has special attributes that will forestall aging, but I don't think his game is as prone to that severe drop-off as another player's game would be. Roethlisberger, yeah. Manning, not so much.

 

And we've already seen him blow through a major physical obstacle at an advanced football age. I was "wait and see" on Manning in 2012. Now, I'd like to see age slow him down before I start worrying about it. Right now, my opinion is mostly based on his past results. You've commented before that his decision making could slow by a barely perceptible degree, and it will throw his game off. Or his body not bouncing back between Sundays like it used to, which has nothing to do with the way he plays the game. All of that could change his game and reduce his effectiveness. But that's where I'm "wait and see."

[dw49]

All good points. I think we're back on the same freeway. My stance is based on the fact that Manning isn't very reliant on the physical attributes that generally diminish as a player ages -- speed, strength, quick twitch athleticism -- and the fact that he played through significant injury at the end of last season and still wasn't really ineffective (although not the Peyton Manning we're used to). I think the Broncos would love to win 12+ games with Manning putting up Flacco-like numbers and a strong run game. That's essentially how they won back to back titles with Elway getting old. 

 

Speaking of Elway, he was a completely different kind of QB and playmaker than Manning. He was a career 57% passer who thrived on getting out of the pocket and extending plays with his legs. He only hit 60% or more three times in his 16 year career; Manning hasn't been below 65% since 2001. When you compare Elway's age 37 season with Manning's, you see two different guys. I'm not saying Manning has special attributes that will forestall aging, but I don't think his game is as prone to that severe drop-off as another player's game would be. Roethlisberger, yeah. Manning, not so much.

 

And we've already seen him blow through a major physical obstacle at an advanced football age. I was "wait and see" on Manning in 2012. Now, I'd like to see age slow him down before I start worrying about it. Right now, my opinion is mostly based on his past results. You've commented before that his decision making could slow by a barely perceptible degree, and it will throw his game off. Or his body not bouncing back between Sundays like it used to, which has nothing to do with the way he plays the game. All of that could change his game and reduce his effectiveness. But that's where I'm "wait and see."

 

 

You mention Elway and looked at his stats and they are a bit perplexing. We all know it was a different game back then but still surprises me what I found. 

 

Elway had only 2 years with a passer rating above 90. Jim Kelly also had 2. Aikman also had 2 but he only played to age 34. Marino had 4 but geez... 4 in 16 years. All those guys were at 59-60 % completion. Elway was at 57% like you say. I guess no doubt it was easier to defend the pass back then. That's all cool and makes sense until you click on Steve Young. Granted he was a little later than all these guys but they all played in around the same years.  Young just blows away the competition in passing stats. I guess a combination of him being good , the Wr's and the advanced offense of the 49er's.

 

But yeah... Manning is a different QB than most of those guys. 

[jseg18]

I haven't read all of the posts, but I'm sure everyone is talking about Peyton's age and doubting him. One thing that I question is the running attack of Denver. Brett Favre had AP in his prime, and I believe they were bound for a SB if Vikings didn't rely on a 40 year old QB to win it with his arm. John Elway is another example, but Shanahan actually stuck to his formula. Run the ball play action, control the clock. Now Shanahans offensive coordinator is Peyton's coach, and I believe they will run that zone blocking scheme all day this year.

A head scratcher for me in Denver is how much they rely on their current backfield to carry the load. Elway had TD, and Brett Favre in Minnesota had AP. I fell de never should have drafted, or got a proven STUD to carry Peyton's offense .

[C0lts088]

Manning is manning

He'll go for ~30tds ~10ints and 4,000+ yards.

Get into the playoffs...... But that's where it gets interesting

[Superman]

You mention Elway and looked at his stats and they are a bit perplexing. We all know it was a different game back then but still surprises me what I found. 

 

Elway had only 2 years with a passer rating above 90. Jim Kelly also had 2. Aikman also had 2 but he only played to age 34. Marino had 4 but geez... 4 in 16 years. All those guys were at 59-60 % completion. Elway was at 57% like you say. I guess no doubt it was easier to defend the pass back then. That's all cool and makes sense until you click on Steve Young. Granted he was a little later than all these guys but they all played in around the same years.  Young just blows away the competition in passing stats. I guess a combination of him being good , the Wr's and the advanced offense of the 49er's.

 

But yeah... Manning is a different QB than most of those guys. 

 

Young and Montana were more efficient than most of their peers. I think it's mostly about playing for Bill Walsh and in his system. Even though it was easier to defend the pass back then, when you start throwing spread formations out there and your QB takes quick drops and fires, his completion percentage is going to go through the roof. And throwing to Jerry Rice doesn't hurt, either.

 

Players like Young and Kelly make me believe Kurt Warner will soon get in the HOF. He burned brightly for a short period of time, then was almost nonexistent for awhile, then came back strong again. Took home a couple MVPs along the way. 

[dw49]

Young and Montana were more efficient than most of their peers. I think it's mostly about playing for Bill Walsh and in his system. Even though it was easier to defend the pass back then, when you start throwing spread formations out there and your QB takes quick drops and fires, his completion percentage is going to go through the roof. And throwing to Jerry Rice doesn't hurt, either.

 

Players like Young and Kelly make me believe Kurt Warner will soon get in the HOF. He burned brightly for a short period of time, then was almost nonexistent for awhile, then came back strong again. Took home a couple MVPs along the way. 

 

 

I can see Warner in the HOF , but what a crazy up and down career...

[Superman]

I can see Warner in the HOF , but what a crazy up and down career...

 

Yup, but he had two separate peaks that were as good as anyone else. The fact that they were ten years apart and with two separate teams makes it hard to argue that he was a product of his environment. I can argue that he was the single biggest factor on three different Super Bowl teams, especially when you look at the careers of the three different coaches he went with. Mike Martz probably never happens without Kurt Warner. I get why he didn't make it this year, but he'd have my vote, for sure, which means nothing.

[dw49]

Yup, but he had two separate peaks that were as good as anyone else. The fact that they were ten years apart and with two separate teams makes it hard to argue that he was a product of his environment. I can argue that he was the single biggest factor on three different Super Bowl teams, especially when you look at the careers of the three different coaches he went with. Mike Martz probably never happens without Kurt Warner. I get why he didn't make it this year, but he'd have my vote, for sure, which means nothing.

 

Yeah I wouldn't argue any of that. Plus he really performed well on the big stage . I really can't remember how he performed in that loss to NE ? I know the Pats played lights out and got away with holding Faulk most of that game.

[BloodyChamp]

I haven't read all of the posts, but I'm sure everyone is talking about Peyton's age and doubting him. One thing that I question is the running attack of Denver. Brett Favre had AP in his prime, and I believe they were bound for a SB if Vikings didn't rely on a 40 year old QB to win it with his arm. John Elway is another example, but Shanahan actually stuck to his formula. Run the ball play action, control the clock. Now Shanahans offensive coordinator is Peyton's coach, and I believe they will run that zone blocking scheme all day this year.

A head scratcher for me in Denver is how much they rely on their current backfield to carry the load. Elway had TD, and Brett Favre in Minnesota had AP. I fell de never should have drafted, or got a proven STUD to carry Peyton's offense .

If AP didn't suck so bad after game 2 that year it wouldn't have been up to Favre. Shanny's Broncos stuck to their formula because it never quit working unlike the Vikings.

[Shane Bond]

If AP didn't suck so bad after game 2 that year it wouldn't have been up to Favre. Shanny's Broncos stuck to their formula because it never quit working unlike the Vikings.

I still can't get over that NFC Championship game. Vikings should have won that game inspite of all the beating Favre took.

That wide open 1st down conversion when he threw instead of running by himself is still a puzzle.

[BloodyChamp]

Not really...he was on 1 ankle and even if he'd have made it they would have just rammed another helmet into it.

[jvan1973]

I still can't get over that NFC Championship game. Vikings should have won that game inspite of all the beating Favre took.

That wide open 1st down conversion when he threw instead of running by himself is still a puzzle.

He was beat up. Its the same reason Peyton didn't run for the first against us in the playoffs last year

[amfootball]

This is what I "disagreed" with .....you said

 

"None of us can tell the future, but I think Manning will be fine in 2015. I know he's nearly 40 and all that, but I don't think his age is a significant factor. If he gets hurt, that changes things, but he can still throw, and he's still able to baffle defenses despite being the least mobile QB in the NFL. I don't expect him to go breaking records again, but I don't see him suddenly not being able to play the position."

 

 

​You don't think being 40 is a significant factor and I think it is. That is what I disagreed with and funny you think differently as what you quoted me on was directly below you post I quoted above.

That said I never predicted he would fall apart in 2015.  My first post in this thread said that  "no one can predict how Manning will do in 2015 . Hardly looks like a prediction to me. But I do get confused on these CA freeways as they have like 5-6 lanes.

I agree. I think it is very hard to predict Manning but not just because of his age/injury but because of Denver overall.

 

This off-season has felt like a transition year to me with the new coaching staff and the talent that left in FA. And of course now with Clady going down, the offensive line is full of a lot of young talent.

 

This will also be the second time we see Manning have to run a offense that is not his Indy offense which he did back in 2012 with McCoy but ended up going back to his Indy offense the second half of the Atlanta game. So what I see is a lot of questions marks all around with this team. It would also seem that Elway/Kubiak want to see what they have in Osweiller given he is in his contract year and Kubiak mentioned that he wanted to get him more reps in practice. So the whole situation seems a bit unsettled and like I said transitional to me. We will see how it all pans out but most QB lists have Manning at outside the top 5 which means they are not expecting the old Manning but more of maybe a game manager. I think he can be very effective in that role as long as that line holds up for him.

[dw49]

I agree. I think it is very hard to predict Manning but not just because of his age/injury but because of Denver overall.

 

This off-season has felt like a transition year to me with the new coaching staff and the talent that left in FA. And of course now with Clady going down, the offensive line is full of a lot of young talent.

 

This will also be the second time we see Manning have to run a offense that is not his Indy offense which he did back in 2012 with McCoy but ended up going back to his Indy offense the second half of the Atlanta game. So what I see is a lot of questions marks all around with this team. It would also seem that Elway/Kubiak want to see what they have in Osweiller given he is in his contract year and Kubiak mentioned that he wanted to get him more reps in practice. So the whole situation seems a bit unsettled and like I said transitional to me. We will see how it all pans out but most QB lists have Manning at outside the top 5 which means they are not expecting the old Manning but more of maybe a game manager. I think he can be very effective in that role as long as that line holds up for him.

 

 

If you put a gun to my head and asked me what I thought P.M. would be like in 2015 , I would probably guess that the better defenses in the NFL will get the best of him. Knock him off his mark and take as much of the easy stuff over the middle away from him as you can. I don't think he has enough arm left to be elite. Could be wrong and I don't say this with a lot of  conviction. I do know that every great player reaches a point in his career that age gets the best of them. 

[amfootball]

If you put a gun to my head and asked me what I thought P.M. would be like in 2015 , I would probably guess that the better defenses in the NFL will get the best of him. Knock him off his mark and take as much of the easy stuff over the middle away from him as you can. I don't think he has enough arm left to be elite. Could be wrong and I don't say this with a lot of  conviction. I do know that every great player reaches a point in his career that age gets the best of them. 

Yeah. I think toward the end of last year he looked like Marino did his final year where he just could not get enough pepper on the out pass to the sidelines. I am very interested to see how Kubiak shapes this offense for him. I can't imagine he will have Manning running all over the place. He has to have his feet set to throw and get any type of velocity. I was also surprised Denver did not look to get an elite RB. I like Anderson but he does not really strike fear in opposing defenses.

[dw49]

Yeah. I think toward the end of last year he looked like Marino did his final year where he just could not get enough pepper on the out pass to the sidelines. I am very interested to see how Kubiak shapes this offense for him. I can't imagine he will have Manning running all over the place. He has to have his feet set to throw and get any type of velocity. I was also surprised Denver did not look to get an elite RB. I like Anderson but he does not really strike fear in opposing defenses.

 

 

I think Denver went all out in 2014 in adding talent to their roster.  Sooner or later , you can't spend anymore . Take a look at their additions vs subtractions and it's evident.

 

http://www.denverbroncos.com/news-and-blogs/article-1/2015-Broncos-free-agent-tracker/58fb2629-d52a-4133-b4b9-a656dc45ca3e

[amfootball]

I think Denver went all out in 2014 in adding talent to their roster.  Sooner or later , you can't spend anymore . Take a look at their additions vs subtractions and it's evident.

 

http://www.denverbroncos.com/news-and-blogs/article-1/2015-Broncos-free-agent-tracker/58fb2629-d52a-4133-b4b9-a656dc45ca3e

Yeah, I guess we will see how it all shakes out. I think losing Julius Thomas, Franklin and Knighton were huge and now Clady to injury. I think they still win the West as the Chiefs and Chargers are not ready to take that mantel but I just don't see a playoff deep run.  Who do you see as the top teams in the AFC?

[dw49]

Yeah, I guess we will see how it all shakes out. I think losing Julius Thomas, Franklin and Knighton were huge and now Clady to injury. I think they still win the West as the Chiefs and Chargers are not ready to take that mantel but I just don't see a playoff deep run.  Who do you see as the top teams in the AFC?

 

Indy and NE at the top. 

 

Maybe Pitt and Balt a touch better than the rest of the teams that appear to have talent. I don't like Denver or Miami much and NE and Buff are too shakeout QB. So I guess I'm pretty close to what most of the "experts" have and that alone is plenty to make me full of poop.

[amfootball]

Yeah I wouldn't argue any of that. Plus he really performed well on the big stage . I really can't remember how he performed in that loss to NE ? I know the Pats played lights out and got away with holding Faulk most of that game.

He went 28 for 44 with 1 TD and 2 picks.

 

NE absolutely brutalized him the whole game. It was reported after the game that he has red welts all over his body. And of course the SI cover pretty much summed up his day:

 

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

10 wins would be one of Manning's worst years.

 

Nah  for Luck 10 would be his worst however , 97 the Colts were 3-13  which earned the first pick & Peyton Manning who in his rookie season equaled that record .

 

98 -  3- 13

 

2001  - 6-10

 

10 wins I think would be good & would'nt expect much more they could struggle to get 10 IMO .

[wig]

Nah  for Luck 10 would be his worst however , 97 the Colts were 3-13  which earned the first pick & Peyton Manning who in his rookie season equaled that record .

 

98 -  3- 13

 

2001  - 6-10

 

10 wins I think would be good & would'nt expect much more they could struggle to get 10 IMO .

 

Nah?  I said "one of."  You pointed out two years that have been worse. . . out of 17.

[BloodyChamp]

10 wins with this schedule is better than 14 wins in that old division with 2 expansion teams and a relocated team.

[dgambill]

If AP didn't suck so bad after game 2 that year it wouldn't have been up to Favre. Shanny's Broncos stuck to their formula because it never quit working unlike the Vikings.

Yeah....AP was maddening...all those fumbles....he was like a turnover machine. I was pulling for Minnesota. I thought a Favre/Manning SB would have been fantastic...especially since both defenses had holes to exploit.

[Superman]

Nah?  I said "one of."  You pointed out two years that have been worse. . . out of 17.

 

The most recent one being 14 seasons ago...

[wig]

10 wins with this schedule is better than 14 wins in that old division with 2 expansion teams and a relocated team.

10 wins in the NFL is NEVER better than 14.

[BloodyChamp]

10 wins in the NFL is NEVER better than 14.

The 2011 Giants beg to differ.

[wig]

The 2011 Giants beg to differ.

 

Such a terrible argument.

[BloodyChamp]

Such a terrible argument.

I agree it's a terrible argument for you. That's why I used it.