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Now that we can discuss contracts with 2012 class

12isthenew18

By 12isthenew18
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John Dee Walk On

John Dee

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There is no way in hades I am giving either Fleener or Allen 5+ million per..     

 

Fleener cannot catch a cold half the time and Allen is an injury risk.     Both would be very well compensated with a very nice "incentive" loaded contract at about 2-3m per .. EACH.

 

TY is going to get the big bucks and ...  Luck...   Top dollar.

 

"GOOD" TE's are a luxury...     This team NEEDS OL, and rush ends far more than they need Coby and DA sucking up huge cash.  

 

They are both replaceable, at 5m per.... look at the list of the top 25 highest paid for 2014.

http://www.spotrac.com/rankings/nfl/average/tight-end/limit-25/

 

Allen and Fleener are both nice players...  but both have issues.      Far more NEEDS on this team.   If I keep one it would be Allen, he is far more valuable when he plays.     

How much and what contract would you give them

 

Luck: 7/134m 65m guarenteed 

Hilton: 5/45m 20m Guarenteed

Fleener: 5/27m 12m Guarenteed

Allen: 5/27m 12m Guarenteed

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csmopar Ring of Honor

csmopar

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no way we pay our tight ends that kind of money, this team has weaknesses that hugely overshadow that position, they are not superstars like Gronk or Graham, plus the that position is easily replaceable.

Im not so sure. Fleener was ranked in the top 10 of TEs a few weeks back, haven't checked recently. But either way, I see him and Allen both getting a good size payday.

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loudnproudcolt Walk On

loudnproudcolt

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One more thing, agree that Fleener should get more, since Allen has missed so many games, but 5.5M is too much. I would have not thought that before I looked at the list of Tight End salaries, so thanks for the post. I thought we were going to have to pay that much also, but if Delanie Walker is making only 4.4M a year, Fleener and Allen should make around 3.5M with incentives.

 

One more thing about the cap, certain players are not going to be here next year, due to injuries. You are not going to have Donald Thomas, has been injured the two years he has been signed for, so that is an extra 3.25 towards the cap. Ballard is going to be cut also, so another 660K.

Not an injury, but surprised if Lance Louis is back, so 1M more.

 

I know it would be some dead money pain next year, but long term it is worth it to let Landry go. That was a bad signing. No matter who plays the position it will be better. Only adds 1.4M to the cap in 15, but adds 8M back in 16. He misses tackles due to not wrapping up, and can not cover anyone!

 

I think we are going to be in very good cap shape, even after the 2012 cap signings. The one thing to watch for Luck is not the dollar amount, which is important of course, but how it is structured. Kaepernick and Dalton's contracts were incredibly team oriented. We shall see for Andrew. It is his first large contract, so I don't expect any discounts, but you know how much he is a team first guy.

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Gavin Walk On

Gavin

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Fleener is beginning to show that he is more valuable than Allen. Fleener is a stretch the field guy whereas Allen is a move the chains guy...those are easier to replace.

Allen has shown he can stretch the field to when called upon and Coby simply cant block worth a nickel.........I think for our offense Allen is much more valuable

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cmgww Walk On

cmgww

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Is there any way Luck will structure his deal in a way that will help the Colts' ability to get other talent? Tom Brady is known for taking "hometown discounts" to let the Pats bring in talent...I'm no cap expert, but I do know he is unlikely to take a deal that will screw up the QB market price and draw the wrath of the NFLPA. Thus, seeing as he is a big "team" guy and seemingly not all that interested in being super rich (flip phone, not flashy, new "expensive car" is a Chevy Tahoe I think)...does he somehow take a it deal that doesn't kill us in the cap space arena? Smarter men than I might have an answer

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John Dee Walk On

John Dee

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Wowlll      sigh,..

 

A 23 year old QB who has been beaten to a pulp by his "team"      asks for ..............

 

 

Sigh.....        NO * WAY.

 

Pay this man....      

Is there any way Luck will structure his deal in a way that will help the Colts' ability to get other talent? Tom Brady is known for taking "hometown discounts" to let the Pats bring in talent...I'm no cap expert, but I do know he is unlikely to take a deal that will screw up the QB market price and draw the wrath of the NFLPA. Thus, seeing as he is a big "team" guy and seemingly not all that interested in being super rich (flip phone, not flashy, new "expensive car" is a Chevy Tahoe I think)...does he somehow take a it deal that doesn't kill us in the cap space arena? Smarter men than I might have an answer

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NewColtsFan Ring of Honor

NewColtsFan

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Is there any way Luck will structure his deal in a way that will help the Colts' ability to get other talent? Tom Brady is known for taking "hometown discounts" to let the Pats bring in talent...I'm no cap expert, but I do know he is unlikely to take a deal that will screw up the QB market price and draw the wrath of the NFLPA. Thus, seeing as he is a big "team" guy and seemingly not all that interested in being super rich (flip phone, not flashy, new "expensive car" is a Chevy Tahoe I think)...does he somehow take a it deal that doesn't kill us in the cap space arena? Smarter men than I might have an answer

 

Luck can stagger the guaranteed money...   and he can have certain incentives categorized in such a way as to be advantageous to the Colts.  

 

The question is....   will he?     I suspect the answer is....    Yes.    But only up to a point.

 

I think he'll try to do all he can to help his team,  while not screwing with the quarterback market and upsetting anyone in the NFL.

 

That said,  I think the chance of Luck signing for 7/134, which is $19.2 a year,  are pretty small.

 

I think he's somewhere in the $22-24 Mill per year neighborhood.

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cmgww Walk On

cmgww

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John Dee.....you'd think since he HAS been beaten up, he'd take a little less to ensure his team has the money to get and keep quality OL personnel in front of him. The line will get better. This is only the 3rd year, and the Colts just need a few more players up there. Mewhort will be solid, Castanzo is already. Now we have to address the other 3 positions. Grigson whiffed on Cherilus and Thomas. Injuries are impossible to predict. Luck will get his, but I don't think he's a "break the bank" player. That would go against his fundamental personality (from what we've seen at least)

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Jdubu Practice Squad

Jdubu

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Allen has shown he can stretch the field to when called upon and Coby simply cant block worth a nickel.........I think for our offense Allen is much more valuable

A few points I'll make. Coby has improved not only his catching skills but his blocking too. Coby has played in all the games too I believe, less prone to injury. He is an above avg TE threat and he seems to be improving still. I believe he gets paid 4-5/yr

Allen, while a much better blocker than Coby and probably always will, he also has been marked as an injury prone player so far. I'd say we choose one of these guys to stay and draft another one to replace the departed one late in the draft.

We have to pick players who can play each week and stop with this injury related welfare crap.

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Superman Ring of Honor

Superman

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That's a bit more money than I would like to pay Allen and Fleener, assuming those numbers are what we give them and it's not some deal like the Kaep or DQ contract where he might not get all of what he signed

 

That's a bit more money than I'd like to pay anyone. But it fits market value for both of them. It's actually a little low, depending on how you look at it.

 

http://www.spotrac.com/rankings/nfl/average/tight-end/limit-25/

 

Compare Fleener to Jared Cook, who makes $7m/year. 

 

The most favorable comparison for the team is Delanie Walker, but he was 29 when he signed, and had been a 20 catch/year guy as a backup in SF. And he's getting $4.375m/year.

 

I think the floor for these two guys is $5m/year. If we offer early, we can probably do the $27m that the OP suggests. If they hit the market, there's no reason they won't both get Jared Cook money.

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Superman Ring of Honor

Superman

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A few points I'll make. Coby has improved not only his catching skills but his blocking too. Coby has played in all the games too I believe, less prone to injury. He is an above avg TE threat and he seems to be improving still. I believe he gets paid 4-5/yr

Allen, while a much better blocker than Coby and probably always will, he also has been marked as an injury prone player so far. I'd say we choose one of these guys to stay and draft another one to replace the departed one late in the draft.

We have to pick players who can play each week and stop with this injury related welfare crap.

 

I think both of these guys are replaceable, but Fleener more so than Allen. Problem is that Allen has these injuries. It's going to be a tough call, but I don't think the contracts suggested are overboard. I don't know about $12m guaranteed, but there are lots of different ways to "guarantee" money.

 

Either way, what we do with the two TEs is the toughest contract decision, IMO. Luck will get paid, Hilton will get paid. 

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That Guy Practice Squad

That Guy

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Is there any way Luck will structure his deal in a way that will help the Colts' ability to get other talent? Tom Brady is known for taking "hometown discounts" to let the Pats bring in talent...I'm no cap expert, but I do know he is unlikely to take a deal that will screw up the QB market price and draw the wrath of the NFLPA. Thus, seeing as he is a big "team" guy and seemingly not all that interested in being super rich (flip phone, not flashy, new "expensive car" is a Chevy Tahoe I think)...does he somehow take a it deal that doesn't kill us in the cap space arena? Smarter men than I might have an answer

 

Tom Brady can afford to be "team first," because Giselle earns more than he ever will.  Andrew does not have that luxury.  Also, the significance of many of Tom Brady's restructures are exagerrated.

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Jdubu Practice Squad

Jdubu

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I think both of these guys are replaceable, but Fleener more so than Allen. Problem is that Allen has these injuries. It's going to be a tough call, but I don't think the contracts suggested are overboard. I don't know about $12m guaranteed, but there are lots of different ways to "guarantee" money.

Either way, what we do with the two TEs is the toughest contract decision, IMO. Luck will get paid, Hilton will get paid.

wouldnt be such a hard decision if Allen hadn't had all the missed games because he can be a threat and he blocks well. But we can't keep buying these guys who are always hurt. At some point, guys have to be on the field more than they are off and if they are injury prone going into a new contract, you have to really look at that.
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NewColtsFan Ring of Honor

NewColtsFan

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I think both of these guys are replaceable, but Fleener more so than Allen. Problem is that Allen has these injuries. It's going to be a tough call, but I don't think the contracts suggested are overboard. I don't know about $12m guaranteed, but there are lots of different ways to "guarantee" money.

 

Either way, what we do with the two TEs is the toughest contract decision, IMO. Luck will get paid, Hilton will get paid. 

 

A rare disagreement for us.....

 

I see both as equally unique and important to the franchise.   With the cap going up as expected and I think both will have a strong market for their services,  I think both will get the contract proposed by the OP.

 

And I'm perfectly fine with that.

 

I don't think this will be a hard decision.    I think we want both back and I think -- barring something unforeseen -- both will come back if we make a solid offer,  which I expect us to.

 

I don't think either is easily replaceable at all.....

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21isSuperman Walk On

21isSuperman

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Tom Brady can afford to be "team first," because Giselle earns more than he ever will.  Andrew does not have that luxury.  Also, the significance of many of Tom Brady's restructures are exagerrated.

NFL players all make plenty of money.  To say Andrew does not have that luxury is a little ridiculous because his rookie contract was something like $22 mil and it's fully guaranteed.  All of these guys can afford to be team first, but I don't think his wife's income has much of an impact on what Brady does.  Even if his wife had no income, he's still making more than enough money per year to support his entire family

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Superman Ring of Honor

Superman

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A rare disagreement for us.....

 

I see both as equally unique and important to the franchise.   With the cap going up as expected and I think both will have a strong market for their services,  I think both will get the contract proposed by the OP.

 

And I'm perfectly fine with that.

 

I don't think this will be a hard decision.    I think we want both back and I think -- barring something unforeseen -- both will come back if we make a solid offer,  which I expect us to.

 

I don't think either is easily replaceable at all.....

 

Just because I think they're replaceable doesn't mean I don't find them valuable, and it definitely doesn't mean I'm eager to go out and try to replace them. But the premium on that position is lower than other positions. Look at last year's draft, and there are a ton of TEs that went in the third or later who have produced well already. So the value above replacement is lower for them than it is for other players at other positions. Making matters worse, they are both sort of playing half of a position. 

 

I don't have a problem with basically $5.5m/year for either of them. Aaron Hernandez got $8m/year, and that was considered a pre-free agency discount at the time. I don't know if we want to pay both of them that much, though. Now we're looking at premium compensation for the position, Jimmy Graham money. And at a position that is not critical.

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That Guy Practice Squad

That Guy

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NFL players all make plenty of money.  To say Andrew does not have that luxury is a little ridiculous because his rookie contract was something like $22 mil and it's fully guaranteed.  All of these guys can afford to be team first, but I don't think his wife's income has much of an impact on what Brady does.  Even if his wife had no income, he's still making more than enough money per year to support his entire family

 

Not even close to what Giselle has made.  This Forbes article states that Giselle has made $387 MILLION since 2001.  Luck makes a lot, but they are still not comparable.  "Plenty" is a relative term.

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/natalierobehmed/2014/08/18/the-worlds-highest-paid-models-of-2014-gisele-doutzen-and-adriana-steal-the-show/

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21isSuperman Walk On

21isSuperman

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Not even close to what Giselle has made.  This Forbes article states that Giselle has made $387 MILLION since 2001.  Luck makes a lot, but they are still not comparable.  "Plenty" is a relative term.

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/natalierobehmed/2014/08/18/the-worlds-highest-paid-models-of-2014-gisele-doutzen-and-adriana-steal-the-show/

True, but to say Luck can't take a discount because his partner isn't making hundreds of millions isn't accurate.  The money Luck makes on his rookie contract alone will be enough to support him and his family for his entire life.  These guys can all afford to be team first, but you could make a strong case that they don't have any obligation to be team first.  Furthermore, it hurts your peers to take a really cheap contract in the NFL.  So while it's a nice idea to take a really small contract, it isn't always the right thing to do

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loudnproudcolt Walk On

loudnproudcolt

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Do not underestimate how important both TE's are to Luck. He has chemistry with Fleener after being a team mate at Stanford and the Colts, and he goes to Allen when we are inside the ten yard line alot it seems. I think the fact Andrew wanting them back, and the chemistry they have together, will play an important part in keeping them here. I agree with the OP, 5M/yr. would be fine, although with Allen I may want some incentives in the contract.

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csmopar Ring of Honor

csmopar

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IR players do count against the cap

Ok. I looked it up. If wikipedia is to be trusted, it depends on the contract.according to them, if the contract says they have to play in X games to get paid, and the player doesn't play in the number of the games required before going to IR, then only the games he played would count against the cap.

Does that makes sense, it doesn't to me.

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