Colts Receivers

[BlueShoe]

Regarding Whalen and Brazill, honestly asking if you had a minute to click in the link provided and viewed the statistical analysis of the Colts receivers? Whalen is well ahead of Brazill in measurable categories, however, Brazill is more atheletic.

Regarding Rogers and Moncrief, they're similar with Roger's being a more physical "fight for the ball" type receiver and Moncrief as a smoother, higher top speed player. Both need to work on their route running. I put Rogers ahead in that he has a year ahead of Moncrief to get the play book down.

 

Yep. I clicked on it, but do not have time to read it all right now. 

 

Brazil had a suspension last year that kept him out of the first 4 games, and it took him a while to get in the groove. Brazil has made BIG Time catches for us over the past two years. Brazil has more talent. 

 

I like Whalen. Mainly because he is our Rudy. He gives his all and then some, and he really wants to be here. I always love these types of players.

 

When it comes down to actual talent, Brazil over Whalen is an easy choice for me.

 

As far as Moncrief and Rogers, it is very simple - Moncrief was a 3rd round pick and the Colts will want a return on that investment. Rogers is still house money. That said, I believe both have a home here, and figure into the future. Rogers went undrafted for a reason, while Moncrief was drafted (in a deeper draft) in the third round for a reason.

[crazycolt1]

Tell that to Richard Sherman and Aqib Talib....

His speed is what got him open on those two defenders. Not that he is a #1 receiver. A #1 receiver has to be able to front defenders and TY hasn't the size to do that. A #1 receiver also has to have the ability to block for the other receivers and size is a must. Do not take my thoughts on TY as a negative thing because his talent level is second to none.

[schwamm]

My guess is Brazil gets traded.

Yeah, my bet is that we see a ton of Brazill early in preseason, then see him get traded in exchange for filling a position of greater need.

And I think we'll see Whalen become a victim of final cuts, most likely ending his NFL career. I've changed my opinion of Griff in the last year, and have come to love the guy's heart... but there is now too much talent at the position, and I just don't anticipate the team keeping 6.

[dw49]

I don't see Whalen beating Brazil.

I would also put Moncrief ahead of Rogers.

 

 

 

I agree that Brazil has a better skill set than Whalen but I agree with those that think Whalen has a better chance of sticking. It just seems to me that what Brazil brings to the table is just so covered by Rogers and Moncrief that it makes more sense to keep Whalen. Other words if there were a draft . I'd say Brazil goes before Whalen but I think if there was an injury or two and one of those guys had to see the field a bit , Whalen is the better choice.

[dgambill]

We have a great receiving core. Lots of toys for Pep and Andrew. One thing I think could definately happen is if Reggie is healthy by season starting that we see him play a lot early and see him tapered off as the year goes on. I would expect to see Reggie and TY starting as we use some 2 TE sets (maybe not week 1 against the Broncos but say around week 2 and 3). Then use more and more Nicks as he learns the offense and expect him to take over many of Reggies plays as the year progresses...both because I think he will be a better playmaker and also to keep him rested and healthy as the season moves along. I think Moncrief will start out further down the board...and slowly progress to the number 4 by late in the season. Rogers is still very raw and is basically just that home run threat. Not going to be used for much more than that until he learns the offense and how to run routes. As it sits I would say Brazil is our number 4 temporarily and Whelan 5...simply by ability..but I would be very surprised if Brazil is still with the team by the end of the year. Something tells me he will get suspended again...nothing to go on but these kids have a hard time not using..and I would be happy to be wrong but I'm not going to count on him. He has a lot of talent...just has to realize it. Considering injury issues...we keep them all...but likely Whelan is the odd man out...just because he is the least likely to get claimed by another team.

[ColtsFanMikeC]

Yep. I clicked on it, but do not have time to read it all right now. 

 

Brazil had a suspension last year that kept him out of the first 4 games, and it took him a while to get in the groove. Brazil has made BIG Time catches for us over the past two years. Brazil has more talent. 

 

I like Whalen. Mainly because he is our Rudy. He gives his all and then some, and he really wants to be here. I always love these types of players.

 

When it comes down to actual talent, Brazil over Whalen is an easy choice for me.

 

As far as Moncrief and Rogers, it is very simple - Moncrief was a 3rd round pick and the Colts will want a return on that investment. Rogers is still house money. That said, I believe both have a home here, and figure into the future. Rogers went undrafted for a reason, while Moncrief was drafted (in a deeper draft) in the third round for a reason.

Rogers went undrafted because he had 'character issues' -- this is what the WR coach at Tennessee had to say about Rogers prior to the draft last year.  "He's got it all. His body type is a lot like Eric Moulds. It's all there," Roth said. "The off the field stuff that happened is why he was undrafted. Out of him, Justin Hunter and Cordarrelle Patterson, he's the most NFL ready in my opinion in terms of route running, balls skills and everything. He can come in and he won't be behind in terms of coaching and all that stuff."  Rogers went to Buffalo and they said he was walking around in practice and being lazy, so he got cut.  Indy signed him and told him from day 1 that he was on a short leash -- now I hear he is one of the first guys in and one of the last guys out on a pretty consisent basis.

 

Here are Rogers' measurables from the combine  Rogers was 6'3" 217 lbs.:

40 Yd 20 Yd 10 Yd 225 Bench Vertical jump Broad Shuttle 3-Cone Drill 4.50 2.56 1.61 10 39 1/2 11'0" 4.06

6.71

 

And here are Moncrief's  Moncrief is 6'2" 221 lbs.:

40 Yd 20 Yd 10 Yd 225 Bench Vertical jump Broad Shuttle 3-Cone Drill 4.34 2.51 1.54 13 39 1/2 11'0" 4.30 7.02

 

Both players have very similar size and the exact same jumping ability.

 

Moncrief showed slightly more straight-line speed and Rogers showed faster times in the agility tests.

 

While I kind of understand the thinking that the Colts will want to keep Moncrief because they invested a draft pick in him -- I highly doubt there is anyone in the Colts' front office that doesn't want to see our risk on Rogers pay off.  In the end, I think both make the team -- however, if one has to go the Colts' front office is going to keep the better player regardless of who we drafted vs. signed.  These guys are both physical specimens and they both have potential to be 'game-wreckers' in this league.  That has to be kept in mind -- if we release one of these guys, chances are we will have to figure out a way to defend against them someday so I think it will come down to who has more talent rather than who we have more 'invested' in.

[BlueShoe]

I agree that Brazil has a better skill set than Whalen but I agree with those that think Whalen has a better chance of sticking. It just seems to me that what Brazil brings to the table is just so covered by Rogers and Moncrief that it makes more sense to keep Whalen. Other words if there were a draft . I'd say Brazil goes before Whalen but I think if there was an injury or two and one of those guys had to see the field a bit , Whalen is the better choice.

 

Chances are, we will have some type of injury at WR, or we will put Wayne on PUP to start the season, so I think Whalen will be on the 53 man roster. However is all 7 are healthy then Brazil would be my pick.

 

Brazil has an uncanny ability to get open, especially at key moments in a game, and he can make the tough catches that I don't believe Whalen can.

[Flash7]

I've seen a lot of people say Rogers will be low on the depth chart because he needs to improve on his route running. This may be true, but it's also the biggest knock against Moncrief.

 

Both are large receivers. Both need to work on their route running, but only one has had a year in the system and has actual NFL game experience. For that reason, I don't see why we would place Moncrief ahead of Rogers. Eventually, Moncrief may work his way ahead, but I'm not going to give him the benefit of the doubt just based on the fact that he was drafted in the third round, and Rogers was an UDFA.

[BlueShoe]

Rogers went undrafted because he had 'character issues' -- this is what the WR coach at Tennessee had to say about Rogers prior to the draft last year.  "He's got it all. His body type is a lot like Eric Moulds. It's all there," Roth said. "The off the field stuff that happened is why he was undrafted. Out of him, Justin Hunter and Cordarrelle Patterson, he's the most NFL ready in my opinion in terms of route running, balls skills and everything. He can come in and he won't be behind in terms of coaching and all that stuff."  Rogers went to Buffalo and they said he was walking around in practice and being lazy, so he got cut.  Indy signed him and told him from day 1 that he was on a short leash -- now I hear he is one of the first guys in and one of the last guys out on a pretty consisent basis.

 

Here are Rogers' measurables from the combine  Rogers was 6'3" 217 lbs.:

40 Yd 20 Yd 10 Yd 225 Bench Vertical jump Broad Shuttle 3-Cone Drill 4.50 2.56 1.61 10 39 1/2 11'0" 4.06

6.71

 

And here are Moncrief's  Moncrief is 6'2" 221 lbs.:

40 Yd 20 Yd 10 Yd 225 Bench Vertical jump Broad Shuttle 3-Cone Drill 4.34 2.51 1.54 13 39 1/2 11'0" 4.30 7.02

 

Both players have very similar size and the exact same jumping ability.

 

Moncrief showed slightly more straight-line speed and Rogers showed faster times in the agility tests.

 

While I kind of understand the thinking that the Colts will want to keep Moncrief because they invested a draft pick in him -- I highly doubt there is anyone in the Colts' front office that doesn't want to see our risk on Rogers pay off.  In the end, I think both make the team -- however, if one has to go the Colts' front office is going to keep the better player regardless of who we drafted vs. signed.  These guys are both physical specimens and they both have potential to be 'game-wreckers' in this league.  That has to be kept in mind -- if we release one of these guys, chances are we will have to figure out a way to defend against them someday so I think it will come down to who has more talent rather than who we have more 'invested' in.

 

We are all aware of Rogers past issues.

 

Moncrief has never had to be given an ultimatum to perform. He works hard because he wants to. Moncrief has elite speed, and I did not see Moncrief get caught from behind once in college so the speed translates to the field.

 

I like Rogers and believe that both will make the team; however, I believe that in the end Moncrief will be higher on the depth chart.

 

I am not sure why your response is eluding to me ever saying we would get rid of either of them, and would not be surprised to see them both starting for us in the next few years.

[ColtsFanMikeC]

We are all aware of Rogers past issues.

 

Moncrief has never had to be given an ultimatum to perform. He works hard because he wants to. Moncrief has elite speed, and I did not see Moncrief get caught from behind once in college so the speed translates to the field.

 

I like Rogers and believe that both will make the team; however, I believe that in the end Moncrief will be higher on the depth chart.

 

I am not sure why your response is eluding to me ever saying we would get rid of either of them, and would not be surprised to see them both starting for us in the next few years.

I was mostly going based off the "As far as Moncrief and Rogers, it is very simple - Moncrief was a 3rd round pick and the Colts will want a return on that investment. Rogers is still house money." ---- I doubt either will get cut, and I doubt who we see on the field is going to be based on the assumption that Moncrief is an investment and Rogers is 'house money' -- the best group of WR's we have will make the team, and I firmly believe the best group of WR's out of the group we keep will see the field.  I give the advantage to Rogers to get more PT this year simply due to the fact he has had a full season and off-season getting to learn this offense and gain experience.  I hope both shine soon, but who sees the field should/will be based on who deserves to see the field, not on who has a larger contract.

[Flash7]

Well most importantly if nicks returns to form then he's going to cost a lot of money to keep. And rogers has far more ability than youre giving him credit for

If Nicks returns to form, he will cost a lot. I think, however, if this happens we will not re-sign Wayne, thus making room for Nick's contract. This is very likely Wayne's last year with the Colts, ala Freeney, Bethea and other valuable Colts members that were beloved but the cost/reward ratio was no longer there.

[dw49]

Chances are, we will have some type of injury at WR, or we will put Wayne on PUP to start the season, so I think Whalen will be on the 53 man roster. However is all 7 are healthy then Brazil would be my pick.

 

Brazil has an uncanny ability to get open, especially at key moments in a game, and he can make the tough catches that I don't believe Whalen can.

 

 

Doesn't sound like Wayne will go on any PUP list . I guess what we do know if they can't carry 7 and I don't believe any are eligible for the PS. So I guess maybe best case scenario might be a team like Carolina or Cleveland gives us a conditional late rounder for the odd guy out. 

[YOUR GM]

Respectfully, I would disagree with you regarding T.Y. Yes, absolutely size matters, but it's not the primary factor to consider. T.Y. can get open and has done so consistently. His first two years in the league have been nothing short of amazing. Also, I had included a link in my initial post. If you go to the statistical comparison option, you will see that T.Y. actually had the lowest drop rate of all of the Colts receivers- thus, he does have great hands.

Yeah, people are way too hung up on how tall a receiver is now. It's the silliest sentiment floating around in football right now, in my opinion. I guess Marvin was never a true #1 either, go figure. Torry Holt, Isaac Bruce, Steve Smith - all 2nd rate. Heck, even Reggie isn't the prototypical size for a receiver nowadays. Who cares? If he can win one-on-ones consistently, can run any route clean and has the ability to go vertical, that's my definition of a #1 receiver

Been saying since he was drafted that TY could be our #1 some day. Our front office seems to agree with the majority, however, and must not have faith in his abilities as it pertains to being our primary weapon. Sad, really

[CanuckColt]

No way should Moncrief be above Rogers on the depth chart.

 

1. Reggie

2. TY

3. Nicks

4. Rogers

5. Moncrief

6. Brazill/Whalen

 

The question should be: how many receivers are we carrying on the 53 man roster?

We almost always carry only 5, with 1 or 2 on the PS.

[Hoosiernsavga]

I think Walen will be cut. I wouldnt mind trading Brazill or Rogers but neither one of them

have any trade value.

[TKnight24]

I think Walen will be cut. I wouldnt mind trading Brazill or Rogers but neither one of them

have any trade value.

So you'd be okay with going into the season with

Reggie Wayne

Hakeem Nicks

Ty Hilton

Monecrief

Brazill/Rogers

Really?

[Hoosiernsavga]

So you'd be okay with going into the season with

Reggie Wayne

Hakeem Nicks

Ty Hilton

Monecrief

Brazill/Rogers

Really?

Looks good to me.

[rebelfan1966]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmOfe2uGgPU

 

Hi everyone, just joined the thread. I'm an Ole Miss fan, so I've had the pleasure to watch Donte Moncreif play out his college career. I beleive you guys are going to be pleased that you drafted him.

 

I also follow the Giants, and Nicks should be considered a huge question mark at this point. He played his entire last season with the Giants at 3/4 speed at best. He got no seperation, made very little effort to fight for the ball, and I spent most of the season wondering if he was playing injured.... but he claims to have been 100%. I honestly don't know what to expect from him this season. He may return to his old form, which will be great for the Colts. If he comes out and plays like last season, I imagine the Colts will cut bait with him at the end of the season.

 

Remember, like the video suggests..... FEED MONCREIF !!!

[Chucklez]

His speed is what got him open on those two defenders. Not that he is a #1 receiver. A #1 receiver has to be able to front defenders and TY hasn't the size to do that. A #1 receiver also has to have the ability to block for the other receivers and size is a must. Do not take my thoughts on TY as a negative thing because his talent level is second to none.

I think we have different opinions of what the definition of a number 1 receiver is. You are talking about a big target that you can go to when you absolutely have too. I am talking about the number one producing receiver on your roster, which I think TY has the ability to do over the stretch of a season.

[crazycolt1]

I think we have different opinions of what the definition of a number 1 receiver is. You are talking about a big target that you can go to when you absolutely have too. I am talking about the number one producing receiver on your roster, which I think TY has the ability to do over the stretch of a season.

The #1 producing receiver changes from game to game depending on the defenses faced. If Luck starts to get the time needed to go through his progressions different receivers will have that ability. The #1 receiver is the one you go to when you have to have the catch made. Wayne was far the #1 receiver when he was on the field and will be the same if he is out there. Nicks has the talent but we will wait to see if he comes to play. If we learned anything from Manning is it is a different receiver who gets the attention according to the coverage. We may have games where the Tight Ends will be the most producing. Production does not mean being a #1 WR.

[schwamm]

The #1 producing receiver changes from game to game depending on the defenses faced. If Luck starts to get the time needed to go through his progressions different receivers will have that ability. The #1 receiver is the one you go to when you have to have the catch made. Wayne was far the #1 receiver when he was on the field and will be the same if he is out there. Nicks has the talent but we will wait to see if he comes to play. If we learned anything from Manning is it is a different receiver who gets the attention according to the coverage. We may have games where the Tight Ends will be the most producing. Production does not mean being a #1 WR.

So according to your definition, what was Marvin Harrison? TY has put up similar numbers for year 2, and proved pretty clutch down the stretch last year. It just took him a couple games to adjust to the transition from #2 to #1. He was remarkable in that regard, IMO

[crazycolt1]

So according to your definition, what was Marvin Harrison? TY has put up similar numbers for year 2, and proved pretty clutch down the stretch last year. It just took him a couple games to adjust to the transition from #2 to #1. He was remarkable in that regard, IMO

So according to your definition, what was Marvin Harrison? TY has put up similar numbers for year 2, and proved pretty clutch down the stretch last year. It just took him a couple games to adjust to the transition from #2 to #1. He was remarkable in that regard, IMO

5 TDs does not make a #1 receiver.

[Chucklez]

The #1 producing receiver changes from game to game depending on the defenses faced. If Luck starts to get the time needed to go through his progressions different receivers will have that ability. The #1 receiver is the one you go to when you have to have the catch made. Wayne was far the #1 receiver when he was on the field and will be the same if he is out there. Nicks has the talent but we will wait to see if he comes to play. If we learned anything from Manning is it is a different receiver who gets the attention according to the coverage. We may have games where the Tight Ends will be the most producing. Production does not mean being a #1 WR.

Notice how I said over the course of the whole season... Personally I dont call your "must catcher" on a 3rd down your #1... thats more of a safety blanket in case of emergencies... To me your #1 receiver is the guy who does the most damage.... I.e. yards and TD's over a whole season... and TY has that potential and ability.

[schwamm]

5 TDs does not make a #1 receiver.

Historically, how have most #1 WRs fared in their first two years? Try to dig deeper than AJ Green, Megatron or Julio Jones for your answer, please. And guys like Jerry Rice don't fall into the "most #1s" category.

[crazycolt1]

Notice how I said over the course of the whole season... Personally I dont call your "must catcher" on a 3rd down your #1... thats more of a safety blanket in case of emergencies... To me your #1 receiver is the guy who does the most damage.... I.e. yards and TD's over a whole season... and TY has that potential and ability.

I explained my opinion on the matter. It was a pretty simple comment. Potential and ability still don't make a #1 receiver. If you would re read my original comment I said the same thing. Your #1 receiver is the one who makes the clutch catch when needed. aka Reggie Wayne. Never one time did I say that TY don't have the ability, I just stated he lacks size to block the defender and make the catch.

[crazycolt1]

Historically, how have most #1 WRs fared in their first two years? Try to dig deeper than AJ Green, Megatron or Julio Jones for your answer, please. And guys like Jerry Rice don't fall into the "most #1s" category.

Read my original comment and you will know where I was coming from. There is a difference in receivers. Your go to guys, slot and speedsters. TY falls into the latter.

[schwamm]

Read my original comment and you will know where I was coming from. There is a difference in receivers. Your go to guys, slot and speedsters. TY falls into the latter.

I get where you are coming from. I disagree. It sounds to me like you are demanding HOF type production in order to qualify as your #1 WR. TY has already shown to be more productive and more reliable than many through two years.

[Chucklez]

Read my original comment and you will know where I was coming from. There is a difference in receivers. Your go to guys, slot and speedsters. TY falls into the latter.

 

 

I get where you are coming from. I disagree. It sounds to me like you are demanding HOF type production in order to qualify as your #1 WR. TY has already shown to be more productive and more reliable than many through two years.

 

I totally agree with Schwamm, 

[Smonroe]

Ok, I am a totally bandwagon Ole Miss fan that followed Moncrief to the NFL because I like ole miss players doing well better than certain teams. As a season ticket holder, I have seen him play many times. He is fast. If anyone watched the 2012 Ole Miss LSU game he caught a pass at the 50 and out juked pro bowl rookie Eric Reid for a touchdown. He is fast. He could be 4.3 fast but not consistently. He is not a mike wallace (also out of ole miss) but he can run vertically. Its when he cuts that he slows down. 

 

Here is the bottom line about Moncrief:   The Kid is devoted. He loves fans, loves his team, and his school. The only reason he left early is because he has a daughter and is from one of the poorest towns in Mississippi an his family desperately needs money. He works hard, and has big play ability. He will block to save anyones life on running or screen plays. 

 

He does catch with his body, but he will use his hands if needed. He does not cut sharp, and it slows him down. On the upside, he is strong and a fighter. I hope that Feed Moncrief will catch on in Indy because currently this is my new favorite team due to him 

 

Great to know, thanks for posting.  Track speed is so overrated for recievers, it should just be used as another measurable, not as the ultimate guide.  I don't think Jerry Rice ever did a 4.6, but how many DBs ever caught him?

 

Sharp cuts is very important to getting separation.  Being where your QB thinks you're going to be is more important, and hands are the most important.

 

I like what you're saying about his attitude, he sounds like he's the type of player the Colts love. 

[lollygagger8]

I like Whalen more than Brazil. 

 

 

If Rogers runs his routes more precisely, he has the edge over Moncrief since he played in the offense last year.  

 

 

Regardless, we've built a stud factory at WR. 

[AntonMcG]

Our current receiving core reminds me a lot of Green Bay's a few years back. Extremely deep, featuring veteran, proven, sure-handed guys (Donald Driver, Greg Jennings) as well as young guys with high upside who can learn without being thrown in at the deepend (Jordy Nelson, James Jones).

 

It worked out very well for Green Bay, let's hope for the same here.

[schwamm]

I like Whalen more than Brazil.

If Rogers runs his routes more precisely, he has the edge over Moncrief since he played in the offense last year.

Regardless, we've built a stud factory at WR.

I've arrived at the same place on Whalen and Brazill, but doubt either will be wearing horseshoes come 9/7.

And yes, stud factory is an apt description.

[AntonMcG]

I think we have different opinions of what the definition of a number 1 receiver is. You are talking about a big target that you can go to when you absolutely have too. I am talking about the number one producing receiver on your roster, which I think TY has the ability to do over the stretch of a season.

 

The issue is that people are using the 'Z' receiver and #1 Receiver interchangeably. A lot of people do that, including the experts.

 

Hilton is not a prototypical 'Z' receiver, but he is most certainly good enough to become our main target.

[YOUR GM]

The issue is that people are using the 'Z' receiver and #1 Receiver interchangeably. A lot of people do that, including the experts.

 

Hilton is not a prototypical 'Z' receiver, but he is most certainly good enough to become our main target.

 

Agreed. Doesn't matter where he's lined up or how he scores, so long as he's scoring. I don't see what the big deal is with him having to be in certain molds of other receivers. He is our most explosive player on the roster, and I would take him over a good number of other receivers in the league

[AntonMcG]

Agreed. Doesn't matter where he's lined up or how he scores, so long as he's scoring. I don't see what the big deal is with him having to be in certain molds of other receivers. He is our most explosive player on the roster, and I would take him over a good number of other receivers in the league

 

It's simply an argument of semantics.

[schwamm]

The issue is that people are using the 'Z' receiver and #1 Receiver interchangeably. A lot of people do that, including the experts.

Hilton is not a prototypical 'Z' receiver, but he is most certainly good enough to become our main target.

Good point. I could see him struggling if they tried to line him up in the 'Z'. Wasn't that what happened to Alvin Harper when he went to Tampa?

[Valpo2004]

Yeah, my bet is that we see a ton of Brazill early in preseason, then see him get traded in exchange for filling a position of greater need.

And I think we'll see Whalen become a victim of final cuts, most likely ending his NFL career. I've changed my opinion of Griff in the last year, and have come to love the guy's heart... but there is now too much talent at the position, and I just don't anticipate the team keeping 6.

 

Can Moncrief return kicks and punts?  If we trade Brazil and let go of Whalen I'm wondering who we are gonna have as a return man.

 

As far as Whalen. . . I'm not sure his NFL career will end.  Both the Panthers and the Pats are in desperate need for WR depth and Whalen has shown the ability to make plays.  He won't be the answer to their problems at receiver but at this point they could use someone who's actually made some plays at the NFL level.  They might be interested in picking him up off of waivers.  

[BlueShoe]

Good point. I could see him struggling if they tried to line him up in the 'Z'. Wasn't that what happened to Alvin Harper when he went to Tampa?

 

That probably had more to do with not having Irvin on the other side (taking double teams) more than anything else.

[CanuckColt]

However it turns out, I don't envy Grigs/Chuck when it comes to the final cuts for WRs.

They could pare down to 5 (Reggie, Nicks, T.Y., Rogers, Moncrief) plus 2 new unknowns on the PS, but get really hosed if Reggie and Nicks go down early....or they could keep 6 (add Griff or Brazill) at the expense of another position.

I think they need to regard Reggie and Nicks as potentially part-season players and keep 6 WRs this year.