Luck favors bringing Jonathan Martin to Indy

[HarassedOffTheSite]

To believe that anyone in the Colts locker room will not welcome him with open arms and that defenders will be able to use this episode against him or that he is somehow not mentally strong enough to not let it get to him is presumptuous.

[esmort]

Can you share some facts about Martin's condition?  Has he ever been clinically diagnosed with a legitimate mental condition and has sought treatment in any way?  I'm asking for real....I don't know his mental history.

 

I don't know if he was ever officially treated or officially diagnosed.  But the in the report if I am not mistaken there are references to him having similar issues in High School.  I believe it was referenced in the report in conversations or texts between him and his mother, but I have slept since I first read it so I can't cite the exact section.

[jvan1973]

To believe that anyone in the Colts locker room will not welcome him with open arms and that defenders will be able to use this episode against him or that he is somehow not mentally strong enough to not let it get to him is presumptuous.

Without knowing him in a personal level, the opposite of what you say is also true.

[esmort]

To believe that anyone in the Colts locker room will not welcome him with open arms and that defenders will be able to use this episode against him or that he is somehow not mentally strong enough to not let it get to him is presumptuous.

 

To believe that everyone in the Colts locker room will welcome him with open arms and that it can't be used against him is a bigger presumption with possibly bigger repercussions for being wrong IMO.

[SteelCityColt]

Can you share some facts about Martin's condition? Has he ever been clinically diagnosed with a legitimate mental condition and has sought treatment in any way? I'm asking for real....I don't know his mental history.

The report makes reference to feelings of social anxiety throughout high school and to some degree college but no actual medical treatment or diagnosis. Then post walk out he checked himself into hospital but the medical side has not been fully released.

I as much as anyone is spit balling here on the condition of Martin's mind, the only person who knows is Martin himself and then it's down to teams to assess whether the have confidence in what he's saying. It just angers me it see terms such as mentally weak thrown around. Show me someone saying they'd go through that sort of environment and say they'd be unaffected and I'll show you a liar. Even if the reaction was lashing out it's still affected your mental state.

It's sad that Martin has been tarred for something that is fundamentally not his fault. Look at it another way, treat it like a injury, one that requires rehabilitation to gain full fitness such as a bust knee. Do you berate this person for being "weak" in allowing themselves to get injured in the first place? Do you give the the support required to heal and learn to function again or do you keep on smacking them in the knee? Even when they do recover you don't think opponents target a recently returned player at that specific injured part? Yet we think nothing to players recovering from ACLs etc. even though these bring "mental" issues of their own, normally confidence loss.

This has gone beyond the hypothetical of Martin being a Colt now and is into the realms of people not understanding what mental illness can be like at all and just knee jerking in condemnation. If you want a good example of a player on the other side of the process look at Brandon Marshall.

Sorry... Ranting. Appreciate some of the good points made all round on this topic on both sides but some people... You know?

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Without knowing him in a personal level, the opposite of what you say is also true.

 

I know, I was making just that point. Nobody knows either for a certainty....but some are positing as if they do. ;)

 

 

To believe that everyone on the Colts locker room will welcome him with open arms and that defenders won't be able to use this weakness against him or that he is mentally strong enough to not let it get to him is naive.

 

;)

[jvan1973]

I know, I was making just that point. Nobody knows either for a certainty....but some are positing as if they do. ;)

;)

gotcha.... and i agree

[SteelCityColt]

To believe that everyone in the Colts locker room will welcome him with open arms and that it can't be used against him is a bigger presumption with possibly bigger repercussions for being wrong IMO.

I get your point and it's valid, it would be down to a team to decide whether he could integrate or not into the locker room. The worrying thing was Philbin's ignorance of his locker room's mentality.

Edited February 28, 2014 by 21isSuperman

[DougDew]

I don't know if he was ever officially treated or officially diagnosed.  But the in the report if I am not mistaken there are references to him having similar issues in High School.  I believe it was referenced in the report in conversations or texts between him and his mother, but I have slept since I first read it so I can't cite the exact section.

I agree.  That is what I read.  But I still see that as the same thing as the Miami situation....his own people were harassing him, not the opposing team.  

 

Wouldn't there be a difference if your own brother was harassing you nonstop rather than your friend's brother who you saw once a week?  Not a great comparison, but I think there is a difference.

 

I just don't think there is enough evidence to say that the opponent's verbal harassment will cause him significant on field performance problems. 

[HarassedOffTheSite]

BTW: the paragon of football character, Richie Incognito has continued to show his true colors. ;)

[HarassedOffTheSite]

The worrying thing was Philbin's ignorance of his locker room's mentality.

 

I kid you not, two weeks before the whole thing hit, I was sitting next to the ball & chain watching SportsCenter (she's a bigger sports fan than I am) and Philbin was on there for something. And I turned to her and said "something isn't right with this dude! I don't know what it is but watch and see if this clown isn't on a Fox 'Breaking News Alert' sometime in the future."

 

BipBamBoom all this fit hits the shan and she's like "Hahaha whatever!" (they hate it when you're right) ;)

[Jason_]

 The worrying thing was Philbin's ignorance of his locker room's mentality.

 

But how could Philbin know if no one acted like that around him and no one told him about it?

[SteelCityColt]

Btw is this not typical of the offseason that we are discussing to this length a player who may well never be a Colt... Hahn like the good old Whopper days.

[SteelCityColt]

But how could Philbin know if no one acted like that around him and no one told him about it?

A good coach/manager has to be a good people manager to an extent, you can pick up on atmosphere, body language as players interact etc etc. He's the man in charge at that level, it's his responsibility aside from coaching to have a duty of care to his players. Leadership is not all about pretty speeches.

I do think the report was a little bit of a whitewash in that respect too...

[esmort]

I know, I was making just that point. Nobody knows either for a certainty....but some are positing as if they do. ;)

 

 

 

;)

 

So you think it is safer to assume that given the large number of people in the locker room, with different beliefs, backgrounds, etc ... that everyone in the locker room will welcome him with open arms, rather than that some people will resent him being there and/or have negative feelings about it?  You can't really believe that.

[DougDew]

The report makes reference to feelings of social anxiety throughout high school and to some degree college but no actual medical treatment or diagnosis.

 

That's what I thought too.  And yet he was good enough on the field to earn scholarship to a major University and start for a highly ranked team.

 

Maybe he needs a dog?  You know, unconditional love.....

[SteelCityColt]

So you think it is safer to assume that given the large number of people in the locker room, with different beliefs, backgrounds, etc ... that everyone in the locker room will welcome him with open arms, rather than that some people will resent him being there and/or have negative feelings about it? You can't really believe that.

I don't believe that, but every organisation of such a size has a , and excuse me for using this management speak, culture. This comes from the top and if the top say Martin is cool by us them you either pull along with it or go jump. The problem comes when you lack strong leadership or I don't know, appoint Richie freaking Incognito to the leadership council!

[SteelCityColt]

That's what I thought too.  And yet he was good enough on the field to earn scholarship to a major University and start for a highly ranked team.

 

Maybe he needs a dog?  You know, unconditional love.....

The idea is so barking mad it might just work

[DougDew]

But how could Philbin know if no one acted like that around him and no one told him about it?

I agree with Brian Casserly on this one.   Every interview I've seen with him tells me he's a little off.  To me, he seems like a very intelligent, very studious, very focused individual. 

 

So much so that he could be studying every frame of game film and not realize he was in the middle of the Playboy mansion.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

But how could Philbin know if no one acted like that around him and no one told him about it?

 

There was a roundtable discussion on NFL Insiders and to the Man they said that usually the first Man the Head Coach talks to when he walks into the building is the Head Trainer. The Dolphins Head Trainer (who was fired) has claimed that he was communicating what he was seeing to Philbin and others in Management (implied Jeff Ireland).

[esmort]

I agree.  That is what I read.  But I still see that as the same thing as the Miami situation....his own people were harassing him, not the opposing team.  

 

Wouldn't there be a difference if your own brother was harassing you nonstop rather than your friend's brother who you saw once a week?  Not a great comparison, but I think there is a difference.

 

I just don't think there is enough evidence to say that the opponent's verbal harassment will cause him significant on field performance problems. 

 

Not disputing there is a difference between continuous long term abuse and game time abuse.  My point is that now that he has been broken, and people know what things were the biggest issues contributing to his mental breakdown he is not only much more susceptible to the defense getting in his head, but they also have a very good idea of how to get there.  IMO many of his comments and how he handles things make me think his brain is not just wired to succeed in an NFL type environment.

[esmort]

I don't believe that, but every organisation of such a size has a , and excuse me for using this management speak, culture. This comes from the top and if the top say Martin is cool by us them you either pull along with it or go jump. The problem comes when you lack strong leadership or I don't know, appoint Richie freaking Incognito to the leadership council!

 

I agree the culture would not allow what happened in MIami to happen here, and even those who were not happy with him being here would probably not voice their discontent.  My issue with bringing him in is that I don't believe his value is worth risking any level of discontent ... the potential reward is not worth the potential risk IMO.  Obviously others see him as having more value than myself, which is fine.

[SteelCityColt]

I agree the culture would not allow what happened in MIami to happen here, and even those who were not happy with him being here would probably not voice their discontent.  My problem is I don't believe his value is worth risking any level of discontent ... the potential reward is not worth the potential risk IMO.  Obviously others see him as having more value than myself, which is fine.

Thank you for a considered reply, you're right that ultimately the NFL is a business and it will always be does a team think the player is worth the outlay (not just financially). I just got caught up in the semantics of argument.

[ColtsBlueFL]

I don't know if he was ever officially treated or officially diagnosed.  But the in the report if I am not mistaken there are references to him having similar issues in High School.  I believe it was referenced in the report in conversations or texts between him and his mother, but I have slept since I first read it so I can't cite the exact section.

 

Martin is reported to have checked himself into a hospital right after he left the team. The report states he's received counselling.  That's all.  Incognit, has been admitted into a psychiatric hospital himself.  Scottsdale police did it.

 

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/national/richie-incognito-checked-psychiatric-hospital/nd3bn/

[esmort]

Martin is reported to have checked himself into a hospital right after he left the team. The report states he's received counselling.  That's all.  Incognit, has been admitted into a psychiatric hospital himself.  Scottsdale police did it.

 

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/national/richie-incognito-checked-psychiatric-hospital/nd3bn/

 

Had not read that article, but was it supposed to relate to the post you quoted somehow (don't see the connection)? You lost me?

[Modern]

The only way I would bring him in is if I had a vote in the locker room of the rest of the line and they wanted him.

I know players dont get to make decisions like that but this isnt an ordinary situation and our line is bad and the last thing they need is a distraction or to be on edge.

I would tell them the plusses of signing him and layout the potential negatives and I would want their opinions.

Can they function with him, will he be a distraction, is there any animosity toward him for how things went down in Miami

I dont consider him a game changer by anyone standards so I wouldn't lose any sleep if the team said no.

I know this is not how things are handled in the NFL , but I have handled things this way before in my business and believe it's better to get everyone's opinions out on the table before a decision to bring in a questionable employee.

Luck and Fleeners opinions would mean little to me because they won't be with him as often as the other linemen plus their history together can distort things somewhat. Everyone will stick up for a friend.

[Jason_]

There was a roundtable discussion on NFL Insiders and to the Man they said that usually the first Man the Head Coach talks to when he walks into the building is the Head Trainer. The Dolphins Head Trainer (who was fired) has claimed that he was communicating what he was seeing to Philbin and others in Management (implied Jeff Ireland).

 

I hadn't heard that part.  And my last post wasn't trying to defend Philbin by any means.  I simply didn't know one way or another.  I just disagreed with the assumption (if it was one) that if Philbin was a good coach then he would have known.  It is certainly possible that something like this could have gone on without Philbin having any knowledge of the situation.

[Jason_]

A good coach/manager has to be a good people manager to an extent, you can pick up on atmosphere, body language as players interact etc etc. He's the man in charge at that level, it's his responsibility aside from coaching to have a duty of care to his players. Leadership is not all about pretty speeches.

I do think the report was a little bit of a whitewash in that respect too...

 

I get all that.  Still though, let's say he had no knowledge of the situation...no one is telling him anything about it.  He walks through the locker room and sees what he perceives to be suspicious body language from Martin.  If that were the case, he would most likely pull Martin into his office to talk about it.  In the Wells' report, Martin was quoted numerous times as saying he didn't report what was going on to anyone and he wasn't going to report it to anyone within the organization for fear of being called a traitor.  So if Philbin did question Martin about it, Martin could have used any of a thousand excuses for what had been perceived as odd behavior.  Bottom line is Philbin could have suspected something was up, but unless someone actually told him about it then he could still have been in the dark about it.

 

As I said in response to Brian, I'm not trying to stick up for Philbin because I don't know what knowledge he did or didn't have of the situation. If he did know and didn't do anything about it then I completely agree that he also bears responsibility.  I just disagree with the assertion that he should have known since he's the Head coach and if he didn't know then that makes him a bad head coach.

[ColtsBlueFL]

Had not read that article, but was it supposed to relate to the post you quoted somehow (don't see the connection)? You lost me?

 

Here's the relationship, both parties have now been in a psychiatric hospital. Both parties have (or feared to potentially have by family/friends) to entertain thoughts of suicide or exhibit worrisome behavior.  Incognito is in a new realm.  One where we must make sure he doesn't get to a point to injure himself.  The whole thing is a bad apple, but nobody should suffer harm because of it.

[SteelCityColt]

I get all that.  Still though, let's say he had no knowledge of the situation...no one is telling him anything about it.  He walks through the locker room and sees what he perceives to be suspicious body language from Martin.  If that were the case, he would most likely pull Martin into his office to talk about it.  In the Wells' report, Martin was quoted numerous times as saying he didn't report what was going on to anyone and he wasn't going to report it to anyone within the organization for fear of being called a traitor.  So if Philbin did question Martin about it, Martin could have used any of a thousand excuses for what had been perceived as odd behavior.  Bottom line is Philbin could have suspected something was up, but unless someone actually told him about it then he could still have been in the dark about it.

 

As I said in response to Brian, I'm not trying to stick up for Philbin because I don't know what knowledge he did or didn't have of the situation. If he did know and didn't do anything about it then I completely agree that he also bears responsibility.  I just disagree with the assertion that he should have known since he's the Head coach and if he didn't know then that makes him a bad head coach.

Fair point, and you're right Martin had points at which he could have approached Philbin (snitch?!). I just can't see him not knowing or suspecting at least something. As you say we will never know the full picture.

No one has come out of this in a positive light.

[esmort]

Here's the relationship, both parties have now been in a psychiatric hospital. Both parties have (or feared to potentially have by family/friends) to entertain thoughts of suicide or exhibit worrisome behavior.  Incognito is in a new realm.  One where we must make sure he doesn't get to a point to injure himself.  The whole thing is a bad apple, but nobody should suffer harm because of it.

 

OK ... I still don't see how it applies to the Colts bringing in Martin, and I don't think there was any doubt that Incognito had some mental issues of his own regardless of the which side of the debate you were on ... but appreciate the update on Incognitos craziness.

[21isSuperman]

I'd be more than happy to hear how you feel it should have been handled and where the breakdown to keep that from happening was.  From my perspective, when team leaders and coaches are heavily involved in your demise, there are extremely few alternatives.

I think he should have been more open and honest during the investigation.  Here are just a few snippets from the texts they sent back and forth:

Oct 20, 2012, 8:49 PM: Martin texts Incognito "What are you doing tonight?" when the last text between the two was sent at 2:39 PM. He goes out of his way to talk to Incognito whereas if he really was just doing it so the guys would get off his back, why would he go out of his way to initiate a conversation?

Dec 3, 2012, 8:55 PM: Martin again texts Incognito "What's up".  While I am emphasizing the times where Martin initiates the conversation, it's important (though obvious) to note that Incognito also had times where he initiated it.

Dec 23, 2013, 5:47 PM: Martin texts Incognito asking if he wants to go to downtown Fort Lauderdale

 

There are many more examples and many worse texts that Martin sent Incognito, and some very bad ones that Incognito sent Martin as well.  Tyson Clabo has recently come out and said he disagrees with the Wells report.  I'm not saying that the Wells report is completely falsified simply because Clabo and others disagree with what it says, but I think there were some parts that may not be getting the true point across.  If you read the text exchanges Martin and Incognito had, there are many jabs at one another.  They are not appropriate, but both guys dish and receive some insults and it seems to be water under the bridge.  So reading a text Incognito or Martin sent will give you the impression that one guy is trying to abuse the other intentionally, but if you look at it in context, it's just friendly shots at each other.

 

Once again, I want to reiterate that I am not saying Incognito is innocent or that this is all Martin's fault.  What transpired in the Dolphins organization is unprofessional and inappropriate.  I'm saying Martin did not handle it well; he hid when he knew some very important information.  Instead of saying that he also contributed and that it just became too much for him, he sat back and let everyone criticize Incognito.  In my opinion, he hid the truth

[ColtsBlueFL]

I think he should have been more open and honest during the investigation.  Here are just a few snippets from the texts they sent back and forth:

Oct 20, 2012, 8:49 PM: Martin texts Incognito "What are you doing tonight?" when the last text between the two was sent at 2:39 PM. He goes out of his way to talk to Incognito whereas if he really was just doing it so the guys would get off his back, why would he go out of his way to initiate a conversation?

Dec 3, 2012, 8:55 PM: Martin again texts Incognito "What's up".  While I am emphasizing the times where Martin initiates the conversation, it's important (though obvious) to note that Incognito also had times where he initiated it.

Dec 23, 2013, 5:47 PM: Martin texts Incognito asking if he wants to go to downtown Fort Lauderdale

 

There are many more examples and many worse texts that Martin sent Incognito, and some very bad ones that Incognito sent Martin as well.  Tyson Clabo has recently come out and said he disagrees with the Wells report.  I'm not saying that the Wells report is completely falsified simply because Clabo and others disagree with what it says, but I think there were some parts that may not be getting the true point across.  If you read the text exchanges Martin and Incognito had, there are many jabs at one another.  They are not appropriate, but both guys dish and receive some insults and it seems to be water under the bridge.  So reading a text Incognito or Martin sent will give you the impression that one guy is trying to abuse the other intentionally, but if you look at it in context, it's just friendly shots at each other.

 

Once again, I want to reiterate that I am not saying Incognito is innocent or that this is all Martin's fault.  What transpired in the Dolphins organization is unprofessional and inappropriate.  I'm saying Martin did not handle it well; he hid when he knew some very important information.  Instead of saying that he also contributed and that it just became too much for him, he sat back and let everyone criticize Incognito.  In my opinion, he hid the truth

That was a part of trying to fit in, despite being repulsed by the language and treatment that he also text to others about privately at the same time! His nature is not confrontational, so he went the opposite way until he could no longer stand himself. Right?  Then he quit the team disgusted with himself and check into an institution for help. That's what the report says, and the facts corroborate it, and Incognito's statement were dismissed as untrue (rejected was the word, I believe). All this and so much more was was found out in the very thorough investigation (over 100 interviews at length with folks) and corroborated that Martin report that treatment even while he was trying to 'fit in' at work.  It is a well known defense and response mechanism of a bullying victim. And nothing was ever hidden from the investigator (except one Dolphin employee, who got canned). Martin didn't have to blab anything to the press, and he didn't until the press found out stuff anyway. Believe what you want, but if that report was findings in a court of Law, Incognito would not be in a very good spot right now.

 

Now I ask once more, what tactic or position should have Martin taken or done to prevent this?  Let's debate those, not what he did and is on record. Otherwise complaints without solutions is just whining.

[21isSuperman]

That was a part of trying to fit in, despite being repulsed by the language and treatment that he also text to others about privately at the same time! His nature is not confrontational, so he went the opposite way until he could no longer stand himself. Right?  Then he quit the team disgusted with himself and check into an institution for help. That's what the report says, and the facts corroborate it, and Incognito's statement were dismissed as untrue (rejected was the word, I believe). All this and so much more was was found out in the very thorough investigation (over 100 interviews at length with folks) and corroborated that Martin report that treatment even while he was trying to 'fit in' at work.  It is a well known defense and response mechanism of a bullying victim. And nothing was ever hidden from the investigator (except one Dolphin employee, who got canned). Martin didn't have to blab anything to the press, and he didn't until the press found out stuff anyway. Believe what you want, but if that report was findings in a court of Law, Incognito would not be in a very good spot right now.

 

Now I ask once more, what tactic or position should have Martin taken or done to prevent this?  Let's debate those, not what he did and is on record. Otherwise complaints without solutions is just whining.

I'm fine with Incognito getting any punishment he deserves.  I don't know how Martin could have prevented the entire situation because that would vary based on his personality, the personality of the teammates, what goes on in the locker room, etc.  I just think he should have come out with the truth as soon as he could have.  It may not be nice, but the truth is what matters.

 

Personally, I disagree with your statement that he did it simply to get them off his back.  I would assume that if he was just trying get them off his back or just to fit in, he would do it minimally.  Incognito asks if he wants to go out, he says no.  Incognito calls him a name, he gives him an apathetic "haha" or "ok".  I can't say for sure, but my perspective on what's happened leads me to believe there were much better ways Martin could have handled it.

[DougDew]

I think he should have been more open and honest during the investigation.  Here are just a few snippets from the texts they sent back and forth:

Oct 20, 2012, 8:49 PM: Martin texts Incognito "What are you doing tonight?" when the last text between the two was sent at 2:39 PM. He goes out of his way to talk to Incognito whereas if he really was just doing it so the guys would get off his back, why would he go out of his way to initiate a conversation?

Dec 3, 2012, 8:55 PM: Martin again texts Incognito "What's up".  While I am emphasizing the times where Martin initiates the conversation, it's important (though obvious) to note that Incognito also had times where he initiated it.

Dec 23, 2013, 5:47 PM: Martin texts Incognito asking if he wants to go to downtown Fort Lauderdale

 

There are many more examples and many worse texts that Martin sent Incognito, and some very bad ones that Incognito sent Martin as well.  Tyson Clabo has recently come out and said he disagrees with the Wells report.  I'm not saying that the Wells report is completely falsified simply because Clabo and others disagree with what it says, but I think there were some parts that may not be getting the true point across.  If you read the text exchanges Martin and Incognito had, there are many jabs at one another.  They are not appropriate, but both guys dish and receive some insults and it seems to be water under the bridge.  So reading a text Incognito or Martin sent will give you the impression that one guy is trying to abuse the other intentionally, but if you look at it in context, it's just friendly shots at each other.

 

Once again, I want to reiterate that I am not saying Incognito is innocent or that this is all Martin's fault.  What transpired in the Dolphins organization is unprofessional and inappropriate.  I'm saying Martin did not handle it well; he hid when he knew some very important information.  Instead of saying that he also contributed and that it just became too much for him, he sat back and let everyone criticize Incognito.  In my opinion, he hid the truth

deleted

[21isSuperman]

deleted

I'm sorry?

[DougDew]

I'm sorry?

I posted something then took it back.  Done w/the thread.  Carry on.....

[SLILLINGTON10]

Wouldn't hear it. There's no way refs can try to police what is said on the field.

well they are talking about the N-word being a 15 yd penalty so i assume they hear enough of that to warrant a rule. also with all these guys "mic'ed" up these days i imagine the NFL hears pretty much everything players say to each other.

[NewEra]

well they are talking about the N-word being a 15 yd penalty so i assume they hear enough of that to warrant a rule. also with all these guys "mic'ed" up these days i imagine the NFL hears pretty much everything players say to each other.

Ah didn't think about the mic angle. Well hopefully they enforce the rule across the board. Sounds like just another pc move to me.

[Beauregarde]

The only way I would bring him in is if I had a vote in the locker room of the rest of the line and they wanted him.

I know players dont get to make decisions like that but this isnt an ordinary situation and our line is bad and the last thing they need is a distraction or to be on edge.

I would tell them the plusses of signing him and layout the potential negatives and I would want their opinions.

Can they function with him, will he be a distraction, is there any animosity toward him for how things went down in Miami

I dont consider him a game changer by anyone standards so I wouldn't lose any sleep if the team said no.

I know this is not how things are handled in the NFL , but I have handled things this way before in my business and believe it's better to get everyone's opinions out on the table before a decision to bring in a questionable employee.

Luck and Fleeners opinions would mean little to me because they won't be with him as often as the other linemen plus their history together can distort things somewhat. Everyone will stick up for a friend.

You don't let the locker room pick and choose who will be their teammates. They are being paid to play with whoever management brings in, period.