Who is cuttable?

[GoColts8818]

I think Satele is the only player who will probably end up released from his contract.  Odds are Grigson isn't going to release a guy he just signed a year ago unless they were just a total flop like Zibs was the year before.  None of guys we signed this past off-season that weren't on one year deals to start with really fit that build. 

[Warhorse]

And how much will their replacements be?  We need a GOOD Center, I'm all for spending that money there.

 

Look at that list Valpo put up.  Tell me how many of the good ones are going to sign for less than we're paying Toler?

Stop being reasonable.

[Valpo2004]

At least half of that list have injury concerns, a few more are RFA.  Then when you factor in that teams rarely let young, productive players go, there are about 3 or 4 on that list that may actually hit the open market and those will probably be the guys 30+ years of age.  And, IMO, you don't build a team by signing FA from other teams that are on the downside of their careers.

 

The Colts may take a chance on a couple of the younger CBs especially if they are coming off an injury but that is what they did with Toler.

 

Cherilus was a productive player for the Lions in his last season there, relatively young and without a long injury history and they let him go.  

 

It does happen.  

 

But we do of course have the luxury of finding out who's on the market, making offers and if we manage to get one to sign cutting Toler afterwards.  So I do think we should consider another to CB on the market and dump Toler if we get one.

[Coffeedrinker]

Cherilus was a productive player for the Lions in his last season there, relatively young and without a long injury history and they let him go.  

 

It does happen.  

 

But we do of course have the luxury of finding out who's on the market, making offers and if we manage to get one to sign cutting Toler afterwards.  So I do think we should consider another to CB on the market and dump Toler if we get one.

Gosder was considered a first round bust and "serviceable" as a starting tackle.

 

As far as Toler goes... when Toler was healthy the Colts D was very tough, he and Davis formed a top CB duo in the NFL.  There is a health concern with him but there are health concerns with a lot of the CBs on that list.

[Le Neon]

Gosder was considered a first round bust and "serviceable" as a starting tackle.

As far as Toler goes... when Toler was healthy the Colts D was very tough, he and Davis formed a top CB duo in the NFL. There is a health concern with him but there are health concerns with a lot of the CBs on that list.

Gosder was the second rated rt in all of football last year, according to Pff.

He slipped a little this year, but playing next to McGlynn will do that to someone.

[Coffeedrinker]

Gosder was the second rated rt in all of football last year, according to Pff.

He slipped a little this year, but playing next to McGlynn will do that to someone.

I don't have time to provide all the links but just do a google search for Gosder Cherilus there are articles from every year he was in the league about how bad he was and how he was Matt Millen's last 1st round bust, yada yada yada.  Then when it talked about his last year in Detroit it talks about him having a serviceable year.  There is one article that talks about him doing an admirable job against Chris Long.

 

I like PFF for a lot of things but I have found their olineman ratings are not as accurate as some of their other ratings, mainly because they have no clue about blocking schemes and assignments.

[dw49]

I don't have time to provide all the links but just do a google search for Gosder Cherilus there are articles from every year he was in the league about how bad he was and how he was Matt Millen's last 1st round bust, yada yada yada.  Then when it talked about his last year in Detroit it talks about him having a serviceable year.  There is one article that talks about him doing an admirable job against Chris Long.

 

I like PFF for a lot of things but I have found their olineman ratings are not as accurate as some of their other ratings, mainly because they have no clue about blocking schemes and assignments.

 

 

I think you're both right and wrong on this one. Cherlius , I think anyway , was "rated well" in his contract year. The 4 previous to that were regarded as more "ordinary" than good. Furthermore his pass protection in 2012 was at the top of the list for RT's.

 

 It's possible that Detroit may have wanted to sign him but they have those 3 monster contracts for Sud , Megatron and Stafford. They could never afford to give a RT around 6-7 mill a year considering their cap. 

 

In regards to what you have about teams keeping the good young talent off the free agent market , I think that's true but you will see a lot of O lineman other than LT's hitting the market in their primes every year. If teams have depth at O line and are a bit tight on cap room , they will not overpay for O Line , Safety or TE. That at least seems to be the trend. Also consider that teams use the franchise tag to keep players. Sometimes they make them play under the tag and other times they keep them off the market and then sign them long term before the specified date. With OL , they use the LT price for all the linemen. So that makes the franchise price about 10-11 mill for any O lineman tagged . Thus I think that also puts more non LT's on the market in their younger, productive years.

[Iancolts]

Well didn't Grigs sign all these FA with a front loaded contract. Like Tolers where if we cut him we only lose not much in the cap and gain more then we lose? I would like to see Toler, RJF, and satele gone. But only if we can sign better players to replace them. I actually would like to see Mack at center, Byrd at safety, and Grimes as our number two DB after we Resign guys like Davis and boom stick

[Superman]

I think you're both right and wrong on this one. Cherlius , I think anyway , was "rated well" in his contract year. The 4 previous to that were regarded as more "ordinary" than good. Furthermore his pass protection in 2012 was at the top of the list for RT's.

 

 It's possible that Detroit may have wanted to sign him but they have those 3 monster contracts for Sud , Megatron and Stafford. They could never afford to give a RT around 6-7 mill a year considering their cap. 

 

In regards to what you have about teams keeping the good young talent off the free agent market , I think that's true but you will see a lot of O lineman other than LT's hitting the market in their primes every year. If teams have depth at O line and are a bit tight on cap room , they will not overpay for O Line , Safety or TE. That at least seems to be the trend. Also consider that teams use the franchise tag to keep players. Sometimes they make them play under the tag and other times they keep them off the market and then sign them long term before the specified date. With OL , they use the LT price for all the linemen. So that makes the franchise price about 10-11 mill for any O lineman tagged . Thus I think that also puts more non LT's on the market in their younger, productive years.

 

That's the way I remember it as well.

 

And good points on how the franchise tag affects how teams treat other linemen. I hadn't really thought that through in that way. Kind of explains why the Bills would tag Byrd and let Levitre walk. I've been assuming the Browns tag Mack, and maybe they will, but it is definitely understandable that they'd let him walk instead, because of the inflated value of the tag. They could still reach terms with him before free agency, but that LT value is a big deal.

[dw49]

That's the way I remember it as well.

 

And good points on how the franchise tag affects how teams treat other linemen. I hadn't really thought that through in that way. Kind of explains why the Bills would tag Byrd and let Levitre walk. I've been assuming the Browns tag Mack, and maybe they will, but it is definitely understandable that they'd let him walk instead, because of the inflated value of the tag. They could still reach terms with him before free agency, but that LT value is a big deal.

 

 

That's why I think we have a bit of a shot at Mack. I say that and Grigson probably has zero interest in him. Seems like I'm nver right guessing a draft pick or free agent acquisition. But the way it works ,IMO, is the Browns have no leverage with Mack other than to ay him what he wants. If they tag him and figure they have till that July 15th deadline to sign him to a long term deal , Mack can just say "naa ... I'll just play the one year for 10 million." 

[esmort]

That's why I think we have a bit of a shot at Mack. I say that and Grigson probably has zero interest in him. Seems like I'm nver right guessing a draft pick or free agent acquisition. But the way it works ,IMO, is the Browns have no leverage with Mack other than to ay him what he wants. If they tag him and figure they have till that July 15th deadline to sign him to a long term deal , Mack can just say "naa ... I'll just play the one year for 10 million." 

 

Agree ... also the OL franchise tag is actually projected to be over $11 million for 2014 which goes to your point about Mack's leverage.

 

Got the number from this article: http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24249078/agents-take-ten-players-who-could-get-slapped-with-a-franchise-tag  .... and they actually make a similar point to yours at the end of the article concerning Mack.

[dw49]

Agree ... also the OL franchise tag is actually projected to be over $11 million for 2014 which goes to your point about Mack's leverage.

 

Got the number from this article: http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24249078/agents-take-ten-players-who-could-get-slapped-with-a-franchise-tag  .... and they actually make a similar point to yours at the end of the article concerning Mack.

 

 

I thought it was 11 but used the 9.8 from last year to be safe.

 

As far as Mack goes , both Cleve and us would have the cap room to pay him what he's looking for . The issue would be that some GM's just don't think spending around 7 mi is a good use of the cap. I would think that because Indy has Luck to protect and has way less missing pieces , it might make more sense for them to ay Mack. Plus Cleveland is a huge pile of hot garbage right now. Coaches don't even want to take that job. So why in the heck would mack want to stay there ?

[OldManP]

I would like to know who the coltd would benefit from cutting? And who everyone would like to see cut?

Satele is the obvious one.

Toler is a waste of money if he is not on the field.

We have decent cap room but we would benefit by getting rid of those who are non factors on the field.

I agree with those two choices.

[lollygagger8]

EVERYONE is cuttable. 

 

[Superman]

That's why I think we have a bit of a shot at Mack. I say that and Grigson probably has zero interest in him. Seems like I'm nver right guessing a draft pick or free agent acquisition. But the way it works ,IMO, is the Browns have no leverage with Mack other than to ay him what he wants. If they tag him and figure they have till that July 15th deadline to sign him to a long term deal , Mack can just say "naa ... I'll just play the one year for 10 million." 

 

[Jason_]

The reason me and a few others say RJF isn't good because we have no idea how the Colts defense works

 

Fixed it for you.

[bertjones#1]

RJF and Shepard need to go, they get pushed all over the field. On an important 3rd down play against KC RJF dropped back in coverage watching the TE when AJ Jenkins caught a short screen pass, he ran within 2 yards of RJF and RJF never even saw him run by.No awareness at all, what a waste of money.

[Superman]

RJF and Shepard need to go, they get pushed all over the field. On an important 3rd down play against KC RJF dropped back in coverage watching the TE when AJ Jenkins caught a short screen pass, he ran within 2 yards of RJF and RJF never even saw him run by.No awareness at all, what a waste of money.

 

You're telling me that on a weird playcall where the coaches asked our defensive end/tackle to drop into coverage, he didn't do a good job tracking down a wide receiver on a screen pass??? OH THE HUMANITY!!!

 

Seriously, that's all you got? 

[BOTT]

This sounds like a slam dunk if we could free up 4.5M by cutting Toler (and his injury history) and replacing him with Verner (who has played 16 games each year) for around 5M.  Fortunately, Toler's contract was setup to allow for this.

Signing a guy like Verner for 5m per is being very optimistic.

[dudeski]

His job when the QB passes is to occupy 2 blockers to allow the LBer's to make the plays. Thats the problem, we do not have real good LBers. Mathis is pretty much just a pass rusher, Walden has done well in his role, Werner is nothing special at all, Freeman is not a true 3-4 ILBer(he's a good LBer, but a much better fit as a MLBer in a 4-3), and we really do not have another ILBer worthy of a starting role.

not true

[mintor]

It's easy to cut Toler, not a very big cap penalty. But the myth is growing that he's way overpaid and that he's not worth the money. If he's not playing, no, he's not worth the money. But we can cut him the day before the regular season starts and save that money. Right now, we have him under control, he has a reasonable contract moving forward, and he's an asset to our team. The sensible way to proceed is to add some depth and competition at CB, and see what Toler does in camp and preseason. If he looks good, you keep him, but you've added an insurance policy in case he gets hurt. If he doesn't look good, then he doesn't make the final 53, and we still get the cap savings.

 

If we were projected to be tight against the cap, I might have a different attitude regarding Toler. But we're not. We have plenty of cap flexibility even if we keep him. We can still do all the things we need/want to do as a team.

 

 

true

[Balzer40]

not true

 

 

Go away

[Iancolts]

Cut Toler pay someone else a mill or two more a year if we can resign Davis to a long term contract. I don't think we can afford Byrd so draft a safety that can start immediately let Bethea walk. Draft a WR in the third round that can learn from Reggie for a year maybe two pending how Reggie does coming back. Can we still be able to sign a good MLB?

[Iancolts]

We are all thinking Resign Davis. What if he says he wats something stupid ridiculous and we can't afford him then wow we are down to Toler and butler as the starting DBs

[dudeski]

Go away

learn how our defense operates

[austriancolt]

Satele and Toler. Satele isn't any good and Toler can't stay healthy that was the reason why the Cardinals let him go and he proofed that again this year. Cutting both would free up about 8 million which we could use to sign a top CB or C in free agency

[Balzer40]

learn how our defense operates

 

 

 

Why don't you break it down for everybody genius? 

 

 

We'll all be sitting back on the edge of our seats!

 

 

You've already proved to me once that we shouldn't listen to you.

[dudeski]

Why don't you break it down for everybody genius?

We'll all be sitting back on the edge of our seats!

You've already proved to me once that we shouldn't listen to you.

rjf has different responsibilities than just taking on a double. Especially in pass rushing plays.

He doesn't just sit there and play the 5

[Balzer40]

rjf has different responsibilities than just taking on a double. Especially in pass rushing plays.

He doesn't just sit there and play the 5

Never said he did. People always say he sucked because he wasn't good at rushing the passer. That is not his role in the defense. Nobody should have ever expected him to be J.J. Watt because we don't employ a 1 gap 3-4.

[Gavin]

Never said he did. People always say he sucked because he wasn't good at rushing the passer. That is not his role in the defense. Nobody should have ever expected him to be J.J. Watt because we don't employ a 1 gap 3-4.

He actually looked to have different roles in the defense (A sign of that is the actual moving him around part). Many times in was to take up blockers at DE, sometimes it was even to try to provide pass rush over the Center or Guard

[Mitch]

We need to cut Toler and Satele.

 

I think Satele has to go, if we keep him I will be questioning Grigson's decision-making. He can't play and we can pick up someone that's better and maybe even cheaper, easily. His salary this year is way too high for someone that plays so poorly. 

 

Cutting Toler is the right move. There are many CBs on the market better and healthier than Toler and only cost 2-3 million more. He's too injury prone and with a small cap hit it just is the right call imo. 

 

I just hope Grigson makes the right decisions and isn't too clingy to his players like Polian was. This team is young and we need to keep building. Many moves need to be made, especially defensively and on that o-line.

[Superman]

He actually looked to have different roles in the defense (A sign of that is the actual moving him around part). Many times in was to take up blockers at DE, sometimes it was even to try to provide pass rush over the Center or Guard

 

He gaps on the backside of run plays a lot. I don't like that very much, because he's often on the weakside with Mathis, and teams like to run at Mathis. If RJF is preparing to gap, it undermines the integrity of the line and allows a blocker to get out to the second level and engage with a linebacker. If we're going to gap him, it should only be when he's not on the same side as Mathis. I personally wouldn't gap him at all when we're in our three-down down stuff, and certainly not on early downs. I'd only have our linemen gap in our four-down fronts, which might help our interior pass rush. 

[Gavin]

He gaps on the backside of run plays a lot. I don't like that very much, because he's often on the weakside with Mathis, and teams like to run at Mathis. If RJF is preparing to gap, it undermines the integrity of the line and allows a blocker to get out to the second level and engage with a linebacker. If we're going to gap him, it should only be when he's not on the same side as Mathis. I personally wouldn't gap him at all when we're in our three-down down stuff, and certainly not on early downs. I'd only have our linemen gap in our four-down fronts, which might help our interior pass rush. 

What do you mean by "gaps"? play the gaps?

[Superman]

What do you mean by "gaps"? play the gaps?

 

Shoots the gap, 1-gapping, etc. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

[Gavin]

Shoots the gap, 1-gapping, etc. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

I agree, If ya have 1 DE shooting a gap and your rush linebacker is on the same side thats asking for trouble, I personally dont mind the gapping from a 3 down alignment though but you have to have that ILB that is strong enough to tie up a Guard along with the NT that can collapse the pocket, I would have liked to seen more Stunts using RJF as well, Believe it or not if (and in my opinion likely when) we let Franklin walk I wouldn't mind if we brought Mookie back (he is a FA to be if Titans dont resign him), He didn't have a great year by any means last year but I think as a 0 tech NT (The reason we let him go in my opinion has more to do with us playing more 1 tech then 0 in my opinion, which he was not as good at in my opinion)he was sufficient in a rotational role, he held his ground very well more often then not and shed blocks when asked to and was athletic to give chase...Like I said I dont think he was great but I do think he was underrated last year and took far to much of the blame many times for plays up the middle we gave up....I never understood the theory that a NT is supposed to tie up two O Linemen on every play....Its unrealistic...I'd much rather that NT be able to read the play up the middle...shed the block...wrap up and tackle, No NT on the planet ties up two O Linemen every single snap....sooner or later your ILB's are going to have be strong enough to shed there block and make a play, Just some of my opinions but I watched the Redskins game from last year from preseason game 3 and Johnson completely dominated Montgomery at times even blowing him 3-4 yards into the backfield on a couple plays....Sorry went off yapping to much probably, Just wanted to get my opinions out there and I dont usually take the time to type out such long drawn out thoughts on what Im thinking

[Superman]

I agree, If ya have 1 DE shooting a gap and your rush linebacker is on the same side thats asking for trouble, I personally dont mind the gapping from a 3 down alignment though but you have to have that ILB that is strong enough to tie up a Guard along with the NT that can collapse the pocket, I would have liked to seen more Stunts using RJF as well, Believe it or not if (and in my opinion likely when) we let Franklin walk I wouldn't mind if we brought Mookie back (he is a FA to be if Titans dont resign him), He didn't have a great year by any means last year but I think as a 0 tech NT (The reason we let him go in my opinion has more to do with us playing more 1 tech then 0 in my opinion, which he was not as good at in my opinion)he was sufficient in a rotational role, he held his ground very well more often then not and shed blocks when asked to and was athletic to give chase...Like I said I dont think he was great but I do think he was underrated last year and took far to much of the blame many times for plays up the middle we gave up....I never understood the theory that a NT is supposed to tie up two O Linemen on every play....Its unrealistic...I'd much rather that NT be able to read the play up the middle...shed the block...wrap up and tackle, No NT on the planet ties up two O Linemen every single snap....sooner or later your ILB's are going to have be strong enough to shed there block and make a play, Just some of my opinions but I watched the Redskins game from last year from preseason game 3 and Johnson completely dominated Montgomery at times even blowing him 3-4 yards into the backfield on a couple plays....Sorry went off yapping to much probably, Just wanted to get my opinions out there and I dont usually take the time to type out such long drawn out thoughts on what Im thinking

 

Good thoughts. 

 

The idea that a NT should tie up two linemen isn't really based in reality. The thought is that he should command a double team more often than not, because no single interior lineman should be able to handle him one on one. And if he's 2-gapping, it requires a little more effort to double team him, in theory.

 

I think you'd enjoy this article: http://grantland.com/features/whos-laughing-now/

 

Specifically, Carroll often calls for at least one defensive lineman to two-gap in an effort to get the best of both worlds: With one or two linemen two-gapping to clog additional running lanes, the remaining defenders are free to attack their gaps or drop into pass coverage.⁴ Hybrid defenses that can steal back a gap have become increasingly necessary as modern offenses tilt the arithmetic in their favor by using the quarterback as arunning threat in the read-option.

 

[dudeski]

Never said he did. People always say he sucked because he wasn't good at rushing the passer. That is not his role in the defense. Nobody should have ever expected him to be J.J. Watt because we don't employ a 1 gap 3-4.

he 1 gaps all the time

[colts_100nascar17fan]

Who is cuttable? That list is very long. More like who should and accually will get cut cuz not all will be.

[funktacious2]

I'm not big on cuts unless we're really struggling for cap room, the player has injury concerns, or the player is a complete dud. You have to have some consistency to be great in this league. Our goal here should be to build depth. We sign guys in FA to start and then we draft player to compete for starting jobs. Sounds simple enough, but that's how it's done. I look at it like this. Some may not like say... Satele for a starter but what if we draft someone who takes his job. Won't it still feel go though knowing that a guy like Satele, who now has a lot starting experience in this offense, is now a arguably a solid backup. Then once the player's contract is up then we ditch them, and then the cycle continues. Free agency is always a good opportunity, but man you've got to draft well, you just have too.

[Bluefire4]

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