Why are people so down on the Vikings?

[Andy]

Trestman was a fine QB in the Canadian league. I look at him the same as a college coach - can he make the transition to the NFL. I am not saying he can't, but he is a question mark.

 

The D will have an effect on Cutler if they are not what he is used to them being. They may be top 10 but they are aging so we'll see.

 

I was not comparing Ponder to Cutler. I was comparing the Vikes and Bears.

 

I don't think you know Trestman very well. He was an offensive coordinator in the league for a few teams for a total of 7 years. He's got a lot of NFL experience.

[Dustin]

If Chris Ponder (as you say) is awful, then so is Jay Cutler, don't you agree?

 

Ok, they're both awful. Ponder moreso.

[amfootball]

I don't think you know Trestman very well. He was an offensive coordinator in the league for a few teams for a total of 7 years. He's got a lot of NFL experience.

You are right. I didn't know that. Who was he the OC of in the pros and how did he do? Was he ever up for a NFL coaching spot before going to Canada?

[oldunclemark]

I agree that Trestman may be able to make Jay C. into the player everybody thinks he already is.

 

But if you want a reality check..look at Jay Cutler's career numbers

 

Meanwhile...Chris Ponder's game 16 last season vs. GB was better in a bigger game than any Jay has ever had in Chicago.

 

I can only tell the truth

[Andy]

The numbers are the same...you're dealing with reputations...not the facts I've laid out here.

 

25 Tds 3 time s in 7 years.....and one playoff berth....playing with the No.1 turnover/takeaway defense in the NFL

 

What's silly is thinking jay Cutler has had more than a handful of good games

 

Last year they had similar numbers, but Cutler's line was horrendous, and only had one real receiver to work with. I look at the year before, where he was on a roll before a bad wrist injury. The year before that was 23 TD season. 

Cutler is also much more aggressive and throws the ball down the field a lot. Ponder almost never takes shots down the field, and that's why he has a 6 yards per attempt average. That's lower than AP's YPC average.

 

They're asked to do different things, and Cutler has had some good seasons and has been to the playoffs. Ponder is not the reason why they went to the playoffs last year.

 

Last point, and this should put the nail in the coffin in this argument. Let's go back two years ago when Cutler and the Bears were one of the best teams in the NFL. They were killing it until he got injured. After his injury, it was downhill from there and I think they lost all but one of their remaining games. I can't say that about Ponder, as it's AP who drives that team.

 

Cutler is more valuable and better than Ponder.

[Andy]

You are right. I didn't know that. Who was he the OC of in the pros and how did he do? Was he ever up for a NFL coaching spot before going to Canada?

 

49ers in the mid 90s... Raiders in the early 2000s. Both offenses were great under Trestman and had teams that went to SBs. Also coached the Fins in 2004. 

 

I believe he got some attention in the early to mid 2000s. He also got some attention a couple of years ago, but decided to stay in Montreal.

[Dustin]

 

Meanwhile...Chris Ponder's game 16 last season vs. GB was better in a bigger game than any Jay has ever had in Chicago.

 

 

Except that playoff game where Jay scored 4 TDs right?

 

But I'm sure you'll find a reason to discredit that one.

[Le Neon]

Cutler had the second worst season of his career in the same season Ponder had his best season, which was still slightly worse then cutler and was acheived while his teammate Peterson had one of the single greatest rushing seasons in nfl history.

[HtownColt]

Quarterback

[Kenny]

Cutler had the second worst season of his career in the same season Ponder had his best season, which was still slightly worse then cutler and was acheived while his teammate Peterson had one of the single greatest rushing seasons in nfl history.

 

Let's be real that was THE best year a RB has ever had. 9 yards shy of the record on 30 less carries? After busting his knee all to heck in the finale the season before? Nobody could have predicted he'd do that.

[Le Neon]

Let's be real that was THE best year a RB has ever had. 9 yards shy of the record on 30 less carries? After busting his knee all to heck in the finale the season before? Nobody could have predicted he'd do that.

 

 

I didn't want to pile on.  I think I could name at least 20 active quarterbacks (probably more) who would have done significantly better then Ponder with that kind of play from Peterson and that offensive line.

 

Two of them are on the Colts active roster.  

[Kenny]

 

I didn't want to pile on.  I think I could name at least 20 active quarterbacks (probably more) who would have done significantly better then Ponder with that kind of play from Peterson and that offensive line.

 

Two of them are on the Colts active roster. 

 

Oh I held back from piling onto his season as well. Think about Brees record season, he threw like what 60 more passes than Marino did? Brady's record breaking season, he threw like 20-30 more passes than Manning did and only had 1 more TD, I'm not sure how many throws Manning had compared to Marino to beat the original record so I can't comment on that. CJ I'm not sure as well about but I am positive he had WAY more catches than Rice did. All these newer guys needing two more games and 20-30 as high as maybe 60 more plays/touches, then you have AP who had 2 more games granted, but 30 less carries and was less than a first down away from the record. Simply remarkable. 

 

Back on topic though. Ponder is in his what 3rd/4th year? There are very few QBs who come in and are solid from day one. Manning was nothing but a hope for the future after his first year, Luck being the same(Yes I know scheme blah blah blah I have preached that many a time). Brady didn't come into his own until his D forced him to. Rodgers sat behind one of the greatest for 4-5 years before he got the reins himself. Brees didn't turn into Brees until he moved to NO(I was rooting for him prior to the SB). You get my point. Give the guy some time before ya hold his lacking production against him. It's not like he is the focal point of that offense. I know if I had AP as my RB I'd be game-planning how to feed him the ball as much as possible.

[southwest1]

Cutler is a good QB. He just gets a lot of flack because he isn't what people think QBs should be....all media friendly and such.

Exactly QuizBoy, Jay Cutler is tough as nails, has a rocket for an arm, & he has never been "warm & fuzzy" to reporters & NFL analysts. That's why I like him. He believes in his abilities & refuses to kiss the 4th estates caboose. 

[southwest1]

I haven't noticed that people are down on the Vikings. Mostly it seems that they're questioning how Christian Ponder will do. Also, the Vikings happen to be in a competitive division. It's up in the air who will win the division because anything can happen.

 

Hans Moleman, I wondered about your avatar; just was kind of afraid to ask.

Never be afraid to ask a question teganslaw. Why? Odds are that countless others have the same question you do so my rule of thumb is this: Avoid flinching, fire away, & ask your relevant question. Besides, Hans Moleman is a darn nice guy, very knowledgeable about football, & always a great read IMHO. 

 

Until the Vikings release Ponder permanently, they will never win anything worthwhile as a franchise. 

[Buck Showalter]

I think the NFC North may be the closest division in football, could realistically see any team win that division...

[southwest1]

Christian Ponder has been playing far below expectations and Matt Cassel isn't much better.  If they had a legit QB, they would be a serious threat.  They have tons of talent.  However, their defense is starting to age.  It's also nearly certain that AP won't have another year like he did last year.

All valid points 21isSuperman...Other than QBs Fran Tarkenton & Brent Favre I have never viewed the Minnesota Vikings as a SB threat personally. SW1 had MAD respect for John Randle. I loved watching that maniac on the gridiron every single Sunday.   My kind of guy actually. He played like he was possessed with more than few screws loose.  I miss his growls, yells, & woof sounds a great deal. Now, Roger Goodell would deem those actions excessive taunting & celebrating. Sigh...

[The Fish]

You guys are all on the same page more or less. My thing with the Vikings has more to do with the other 3 teams in the North. It seems like many teams are fairly stacked this year. 

[crazycolt1]

Hans, why do you insist on using an avatar of Justin Beiber without a shirt?

I am glad you said something. It is kind of annoying but it's his thing I guess. 

[crazycolt1]

Lost an avatar bet. Once opening day hits, it's back to the Moleman.

OK Hans, I gave you a little ribbing but under the reason why I will give you a break. But please don't put your reputation on the line anymore!!  :slaphead:

[crazycolt1]

Knowledgeable football fans are not down on the Vikes.

 

They may be down on fans who post threads on the wrong Forums tho.

Knowledgeable fans don't normally put their foot in their mouths either. It is you who is making yourself look on the side of the less informed. Sorry.

[southwest1]

I think the NFC North may be the closest division in football, could realistically see any team win that division...

I don't know about that. GB is solid, Chicago's Brandon Marshall's hip surgery gives me some pause along with a new offensive scheme & Rod Marinelli is now in Dallas, Minnesota other than RB AP is a joke, & Detroit has a great front four on defense that makes boneheaded mistakes at the worst possible times costing their squad vital field position. 

 

The NFC West will be the tightest division in football this year. The Rams took Denver to task behind the woodshed in the Preseason game I saw. The Seahawks secondary & D is tight. The 49ers are NFC SB favorites to win it all this season & AZ with Peterson & the Honey Badger will be a force to be wrecked with. 

 

Then again, I though the Niners would win the Lombardi Trophy last year. So, I will openly acknowledge that my track record kinda sucks... Take my commentary with a truckload of salt. 

[Le Neon]

Oh I held back from piling onto his season as well. Think about Brees record season, he threw like what 60 more passes than Marino did? Brady's record breaking season, he threw like 20-30 more passes than Manning did and only had 1 more TD, I'm not sure how many throws Manning had compared to Marino to beat the original record so I can't comment on that. CJ I'm not sure as well about but I am positive he had WAY more catches than Rice did. All these newer guys needing two more games and 20-30 as high as maybe 60 more plays/touches, then you have AP who had 2 more games granted, but 30 less carries and was less than a first down away from the record. Simply remarkable. 

 

Back on topic though. Ponder is in his what 3rd/4th year? There are very few QBs who come in and are solid from day one. Manning was nothing but a hope for the future after his first year, Luck being the same(Yes I know scheme blah blah blah I have preached that many a time). Brady didn't come into his own until his D forced him to. Rodgers sat behind one of the greatest for 4-5 years before he got the reins himself. Brees didn't turn into Brees until he moved to NO(I was rooting for him prior to the SB). You get my point. Give the guy some time before ya hold his lacking production against him. It's not like he is the focal point of that offense. I know if I had AP as my RB I'd be game-planning how to feed him the ball as much as possible.

 

Not saying Ponder will be forever terrible, just that he remains a pretty big question mark going forward.  

 

He's clearly the worst QB in the division right now.  It's hard not to bet against them in a passing league in spite of Adrian Peterson's awesome talent.

[Buck Showalter]

I don't know about that. GB is solid, Chicago's Brandon Marshall's hip surgery gives me some pause along with a new offensive scheme & Rod Marinelli is now in Dallas, Minnesota other than RB AP is a joke, & Detroit has a great front four on defense that makes boneheaded mistakes at the worst possible times costing their squad vital field position. 

 

The NFC West will be the tightest division in football this year. The Rams took Denver to task behind the woodshed in the Preseason game I saw. The Seahawks secondary & D is tight. The 49ers are NFC SB favorites to win it all this season & AZ with Peterson & the Honey Badger will be a force to be wrecked with. 

 

Then again, I though the Niners would win the Lombardi Trophy last year. So, I will openly acknowledge that my track record kinda sucks... Take my commentary with a truckload of salt. 

 

Noted, I just feel that in the NFC West you have the Niners & Seahawks considerably ahead of the Rams & Cards (although I expect the Rams to compete in their division) I guess I just don't expect the Cards to be very competitive... 

 

I guess I just feel that the NFC North is up for grabs and I won't be as surprised if any of those teams sneaks out a div. title,  where as the West is the Niners to lose IMHO...

[Narcosys]

From what ive heard, the coach is looking more towards Ponder because of how well he was doing near the end of the season. 

[schwamm]

1. Cutler had Matt Forte, a top back,....

2. Ponder does not play behind a top-5 o-line in my opinion

3. Cutler choses to hold the ball and bomb downfield to Brandon Marshall

4. Cutler gets more excuses made for him than any player in recent history.

5. When Ponder missed the playoff game last year...Adrian Peterson couldn't find running room....Vikes lost

6. Cutler's number sand Ponder's numbers are the same numbers.

7. I repeat. Numbers don't lie

I don't agree with your assessment of the 2 QBs, and have trouble with your #7... does Luck's completion percentage tell the whole and accurate story of the poise he showed under extreme and constant duress last year, for example? Does it account for all the drops? Numbers may not lie, but they don't convey the whole truth.

I also think its humorous that you want to exclaim how numbers don't lie, but when faced with numbers that contradict your story (MIN OLine ranking vs. CHI OLine), you abandon stats for an opinion.

Otherwise, I applaud your efforts to stick up for Ponder. And regardless, I agree that the Vikes are likely underrated at the moment.

[Thewholefnshow28]

[oldunclemark]

Exactly QuizBoy, Jay Cutler is tough as nails, has a rocket for an arm, & he has never been "warm & fuzzy" to reporters & NFL analysts. That's why I like him. He believes in his abilities & refuses to kiss the 4th estates caboose. 

Like him or not...He's made the playoffs once in 7 years....  That's 1-6 as a starting QB....the last 4 years with a top turnover defense

 

same % as Ponder..and the individual numbers are, as I proved, almost the same in 2012.. 

 

Cutler believes in his ability and he fails every year.but you still like him.  Not making the playoffs is failure in the NFL..

 

It is odd the way fans buy into perceptions and ignore results..

[oldunclemark]

I don't agree with your assessment of the 2 QBs, and have trouble with your #7... does Luck's completion percentage tell the whole and accurate story of the poise he showed under extreme and constant duress last year, for example? Does it account for all the drops? Numbers may not lie, but they don't convey the whole truth.

I also think its humorous that you want to exclaim how numbers don't lie, but when faced with numbers that contradict your story (MIN OLine ranking vs. CHI OLine), you abandon stats for an opinion.

Otherwise, I applaud your efforts to stick up for Ponder. And regardless, I agree that the Vikes are likely underrated at the moment.

Number 7 in obvious, schwammy...

 

O-line rankings like QB rankings (which I dont use) are not  numbers..they are formulas based on numbers ranked through an arbitrary opinion of what is more important...

(as an side: NEVER us the QB rankings or QBR. they are formulas   Drops are in the ey of the beholder. They are opinion. Luck's numbers represent what he was last year...I like his numbers...interceptions and all. They are the truth.  The 'whole truth' as you state, is opinion based on numbers. 2 different things. Vastly different)

 

Numbers are your stats. They don't change. They dont lie.

 

But thank you for your agreement on Ponder . I remember when folks told me that Tim Tebow couldn't pass because he didn't have any receivers. They'd tell me how bad Eric Decker was.

 

..and then came Peyton Manning and Eric Decker, with his bad self, gained 1,000 yards.

 

Folks run down Ponder in the context of praising Peterson...they did it all last year..until the playoff game

[oldunclemark]

I don't agree with your assessment of the 2 QBs, and have trouble with your #7... does Luck's completion percentage tell the whole and accurate story of the poise he showed under extreme and constant duress last year, for example? Does it account for all the drops? Numbers may not lie, but they don't convey the whole truth.

I also think its humorous that you want to exclaim how numbers don't lie, but when faced with numbers that contradict your story (MIN OLine ranking vs. CHI OLine), you abandon stats for an opinion.

Otherwise, I applaud your efforts to stick up for Ponder. And regardless, I agree that the Vikes are likely underrated at the moment.

Number 7 in obvious, schwammy...

 

O-line rankings like QB rankings (which I dont use) are not  numbers..they are formulas based on numbers ranked through an arbitrary opinion of what is more important...

(as an side: NEVER us the QB rankings or QBR. they are formulas   Drops are in the ey of the beholder. They are opinion. Luck's numbers represent what he was last year...I like his numbers...interceptions and all. They are the truth.  The 'whole truth' as you state, is opinion based on numbers. 2 different things. Vastly different)

 

Numbers are your stats. They don't change. They dont lie.

 

But thank you for your agreement on Ponder . I remember when folks told me that Tim Tebow couldn't pass because he didn't have any receivers. They'd tell me how bad Eric Decker was.

 

..and then came Peyton Manning and Eric Decker, with his bad self, gained 1,000 yards.

 

Folks run down Ponder in the context of praising Peterson...they did it all last year..until the playoff game

[schwamm]

Number 7 in obvious, schwammy...

O-line rankings like QB rankings (which I dont use) are not numbers..they are formulas based on numbers ranked through an arbitrary opinion of what is more important...

(as an side: NEVER us the QB rankings or QBR. they are formulas Drops are in the ey of the beholder. They are opinion. Luck's numbers represent what he was last year...I like his numbers...interceptions and all. They are the truth. The 'whole truth' as you state, is opinion based on numbers. 2 different things. Vastly different)

Numbers are your stats. They don't change. They dont lie.

But thank you for your agreement on Ponder . I remember when folks told me that Tim Tebow couldn't pass because he didn't have any receivers. They'd tell me how bad Eric Decker was.

..and then came Peyton Manning and Eric Decker, with his bad self, gained 1,000 yards.

Folks run down Ponder in the context of praising Peterson...they did it all last year..until the playoff game

Just to clarify... I agree about the Vikings, but not about Ponder. I was applauding your stance, not your conclusions.

As I read through your posts, it seems to me that you are using stats to analyze Ponder's past performance (vs. Cutler's), and forecast his future. If that is your goal, stats alone don't cut it.

Stats strip all circumstances from the equation. They simply reflect what happened, with no consideration of why. But analysis and forecasting require an understanding if the why's, and some sense of how circumstances have changed or remained the same... we're still talking facts... just not ones easily quantified by statistics.

For example, if you are comparing 2 wide receivers with nearly identical stats last year, but one is a 10 year vet who has put up consistent numbers throughout his career, and the other is an athletic high-upside specimen entering his 2nd year... who is likely to show more statistical growth going foreword?

Stats don't lie. But they don't reveal the absolute truth either.