Interesting new fits for Colt's defense.....

[Dustin]

List please, with supporting data...

 

Not sure what kind of supporting data you want, but I'll give it a shot. Keep in mind when I say "perform better" I don't necessarily just mean interceptions and pass deflections.

 

Devin McCourty (Patriots), TJ Ward (Browns), Jairus Byrd (Bills), Michael Huff (Raiders), Antrell Rolle/Kenny Phillips (Giants)

 

Bethea (Colts)- 21st in pass defense, 29th in rush defense, 23rd in sacks

 

McCourty (Pats)-  29th in pass defense, 9th in rush defense, 15th in sacks

 

TJ Ward (Browns)- 25th in pass defense, 19th in rush defense, 8th in sacks

 

Jairus Byrd (Bills)- 10th in pass defense, 31st in rush defense, 18th in sacks

 

Michael Huff (Raiders) 20th in pass defense, 18th in rush defense, 31st in sacks

 

Antrell Rolle/ Kenny Phillips (Giants) 28th in pass defense, 25th in rush defense, 22nd in sacks.

[southwest1]

EVERY safety is mediocre when his D line give him NO rush.

 

 

Ones that get 6-7 million aren't.

Isn't that the free market Dustin? Safeties have no control over what an NFL front office is willing to pay them...Capitalism at it's finest...Go for the highest bidder? 

[Dustin]

Isn't that the free market Dustin? Safeties have no control over what an NFL front office is willing to pay them...Capitalism at it's finest...Go for the highest bidder? 

 

Sure, but I'd be shocked if he was offered a contract above 3.5 million when he hits the market next year.

[crazycolt1]

I won't make any comment on this forum because there is no debate, just arguments. 

[BOTT]

I'm really not liking that McGlynn starting over there.

It's June 5 and they aren't in pads. Thorton will have to earn that spot in training camp....cross your fingers.

[Gabriel Alexander Morillo]

It's June 5 and they aren't in pads. Thorton will have to earn that spot in training camp....cross your fingers.

Believe me, i am. What ever is best at protecting Luck is good wit hme. 

[Narcosys]

How is mediocre/average when he's been the BEST player in thr Colts secondary for the past 4-5 seasons. Basically after Bob's DPOY season, Bethea became the best

That's like saying he's the smartest kid in the special class. We haven't been known for an excellent secondary. I'm not saying he is bad, but without decent rushers and corners, he really has to stretch his abilities around the field. With Landry being the in the box safety we've been needing, and Davis and Toler/Butler working the outsides, we should see drastic improvement.

[dgambill]

Not sure what kind of supporting data you want, but I'll give it a shot. Keep in mind when I say "perform better" I don't necessarily just mean interceptions and pass deflections.

 

Devin McCourty (Patriots), TJ Ward (Browns), Jairus Byrd (Bills), Michael Huff (Raiders), Antrell Rolle/Kenny Phillips (Giants)

 

Bethea (Colts)- 21st in pass defense, 29th in rush defense, 23rd in sacks

 

McCourty (Pats)-  29th in pass defense, 9th in rush defense, 15th in sacks

 

TJ Ward (Browns)- 25th in pass defense, 19th in rush defense, 8th in sacks

 

Jairus Byrd (Bills)- 10th in pass defense, 31st in rush defense, 18th in sacks

 

Michael Huff (Raiders) 20th in pass defense, 18th in rush defense, 31st in sacks

 

Antrell Rolle/ Kenny Phillips (Giants) 28th in pass defense, 25th in rush defense, 22nd in sacks.

Not a bad attempt....I would put Bethea in that group. I do think this is a big year for him (obviously). With the defense and secondary stepping up he has no excuse but to make game changing plays......momentum shifting plays.....100 tackles is great...no doubt but I don't remember any that shifted momentum....few if any that were what you would call drive stopping....much less causing turnovers. Fact is he has forced few ints in the past few years...none last...and only a handful of turnovers. I want my FS to be a ball hawk....playmaker on defense....troy paul.. ed reed...and the likes. He is getting paid like a top 10 safety....and producing turnovers like a bottom 10. He missed his fair share of tackles and took his fair share of bad angles. Fact is he hasn't played up to his contract on the back half of it. For a team that like ours he will have every chance this year and 0 excuses....can't blame leagues worst d or scheme....all on him. Step up and play big...get paid...or next man up. I think he will perform better but I'm not exactly going to hold my breath on signing a 30 yr old safety big money when there will be young talent that might be waiting in the wings.....and he won't be the man we signed at 26....that Bethea won't be what we get at 30-34.....this is quickly becoming a young mans league.....ask Freeney, Urlacher, Welker, Abraham, and Woodson....ask the Steelers defense...I like Bethea but I would be shocked if he is back at anything near what he is making now.

[JoKeR]

This is a story I just stumbled into on CBS Sports, from Rob Rang....

 

The focus is on John Boyett, and how, if not for the two knee injuries, he might've been a 3rd round draft pick...

 

But there are also write-ups on Werner and Hughes....

 

All in all,  I think you'll be pleased....

 

 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/blog/rob-rang/22357381/finding-the-fits-boyett-could-surprise-as-solution-to-colts-secondary

" the Colts intercepted 10 passes in the next 8 games. "

I didn't realize that, that's impressive.

[The Peytonator]

I agree with Dustin. Fans in general like to overrate certain players. Bethea has been very consistent for us over the last few years, you know what you're going to get from him. But really you're not going to get anything special. He is not a liability, but he is not a game changer. He gives up more completions than you'd like, misses more tackles than you'd like. His supporting cast has nothing to do with what he as an individual gives up. I wouldn't say that Jairus Byrd or Eric Weddle have great supporting casts, but they are great players regardless....Bethea is just your average safety. I would not pay him more than 3M a year, especially now that he's approaching 30.

[TKnight24]

For those of you who are part of the "Where is Laron Landry" committee...... here you go

http://instagram.com/p/aHALrymkSN/

Told you guys he wasn't just sitting around doing nothing

[BOTT]

For those of you who are part of the "Where is Laron Landry" committee...... here you go

http://instagram.com/p/aHALrymkSN/

Told you guys he wasn't just sitting around doing nothing

Dude is big. No ho.mo

[NewColtsFan]

For those of you who are part of the "Where is Laron Landry" committee...... here you go

http://instagram.com/p/aHALrymkSN/

Told you guys he wasn't just sitting around doing nothing

 

If all there was to being a good football players was working out in the weight-room, then LaRon would already be in the Hall of Fame.    If he struggles this season and looks lost,  there will be plenty of heat for him on this webpage,  and I won't be the one defending him.

 

Just sayin....

[TKnight24]

If all there was to being a good football players was working out in the weight-room, then LaRon would already be in the Hall of Fame. If he struggles this season and looks lost, there will be plenty of heat for him on this webpage, and I won't be the one defending him.

Just sayin....

OTA's= "Voluntary Workouts"

Just saying.......

[NewColtsFan]

OTA's= "Voluntary Workouts"

Just saying.......

 

And we've had about 95% attendance....

 

Just sayin....

[Gavin]

And we've had about 95% attendance....

 

Just sayin....

I get what your saying and agree for the most part, In my opinion the pickup of him can really be a good thing or it could be a very bad thing, ideally also I'd like him to be in camp ota's or not just to gain a repore with the team but....and this is a huge but.........IF he has his nose in the playbook and comes ready to work hard in TC and brings that physical presence this season most expect then no problem, Edgerrin James missed his share of OTA's and he came ready to play

[IrishColt22]

ok dustin. name them and ill eat crow

hey you leave John Snow out of this

[BleedBlu8792]

And we've had about 95% attendance....

Just sayin....

The camp next week is mandatory so he'll be here for that.

[AntonMcG]

Bethea's mediocrity has been evident for the last four years. He is fast, he get to the ball carrier quickly and he is okay in coverage. But he is not a good open field tackler and he is not a ball hawk. Go watch the film and I promise there is no one who will come back to me and say he is deserving of top-5 money.

 

I respect him for being fairly solid and being on the team for a long period, but he is not beyond the possibilities of an upgrade.

 

We really don't have any safeties that excel in coverage.

[Gavin]

Bethea's mediocrity has been evident for the last four years. He is fast, he get to the ball carrier quickly and he is okay in coverage. But he is not a good open field tackler and he is not a ball hawk. Go watch the film and I promise there is no one who will come back to me and say he is deserving of top-5 money.

 

I respect him for being fairly solid and being on the team for a long period, but he is not beyond the possibilities of an upgrade.

 

We really don't have any safeties that excel in coverage.

He hasn't been great the last 4 years I will give you that BUT up until  the last 4 games of last year our Corners were nowhere to be found and we have had crap at Corner prior to that, he played with a FS next to him who truthfully I think quit because he was handed the starting job (and his prior admittance of doing so for the Ravens back a couple years ago leads me to believe if he did it once he would do it again....I posted an article on it somewher a while back)...Bethea had to try to do everybody elses job a fair share because we refused to address that properly in prior years and last year we had to deal with a cap mess...I think if Landry stays healthy and performs up to his past standards or close to it then that takes pressure off of Bethea and he can roam around more and make plays on the ball

[BleedBlu8792]

I can't really recall any exceptional corners that Ed Reed has played behind either.

[Gavin]

I can't really recall any exceptional corners that Ed Reed has played behind either.

Chris Mccalister, Deion Sanders both in Reeds early years

[Smonroe]

I won't make any comment on this forum because there is no debate, just arguments.

No. You're wrong.

(This is sarcasm. Some people take everything literally. BTW, any word if we signed that Icelandic steroid, er, I mean strongman yet?)

[BleedBlu8792]

Sanders was done when he went to the Ravens. McCallister was good, but he wasn't the most reliable. Ed has also had his time with corners very comparable to what the Colts have had and still performed very well.

Since you've been researching, who has been lined up with Reed at SS, besides Pollard and Landry? I'm just curious

[AntonMcG]

He hasn't been great the last 4 years I will give you that BUT up until  the last 4 games of last year our Corners were nowhere to be found and we have had crap at Corner prior to that, he played with a FS next to him who truthfully I think quit because he was handed the starting job (and his prior admittance of doing so for the Ravens back a couple years ago leads me to believe if he did it once he would do it again....I posted an article on it somewher a while back)...Bethea had to try to do everybody elses job a fair share because we refused to address that properly in prior years and last year we had to deal with a cap mess...I think if Landry stays healthy and performs up to his past standards or close to it then that takes pressure off of Bethea and he can roam around more and make plays on the ball

 

That's all well and good Gavin, but missed tackles are missed tackles and loose coverage is loose coverage. His supporting cast certainly did not help his cause but they cannot be the sole bearer of his performances. Now I do still believe he is a fairly solid player, but I am not sure he schematically fits that well and it is possible his best years are behind him... but who knows.

 

People talk a lot about his history of high tackle numbers. Do you know who has high tackle numbers? Someone who is loose in coverage, lets their man catch the ball, and then stops them... 20 yards after the line of scrimmage.

[Gavin]

Sanders was done when he went to the Ravens. McCallister was good, but he wasn't the most reliable. Ed has also had his time with corners very comparable to what the Colts have had and still performed very well.

Since you've been researching, who has been lined up with Reed at SS, besides Pollard and Landry? I'm just curious

"Sanders was done when he went to the Ravens"....No he had some left in the tank-5 picks

in 25 games (He was the nickel corner or else he would have started more games and likely had more picks), He also had a 48 yard Int return for a TD,

 

"McCallister was good, but he wasn't the most reliable"

 

 

 

 

Mccalister also had 26 picks in his 10 year career and was a pro bowler, Of course Ed Reed has had his times with sub standard (aka bad) Corners thats just part of a roster changing because of salary cap purposes, you cant keep every good or great player on your team

[Dustin]

I can't really recall any exceptional corners that Ed Reed has played behind either.

 

Lardarius Webb is a top 5 corner. Though they've only played together for a few years.

[BleedBlu8792]

Lardarius Webb is a top 5 corner. Though they've only played together for a few years.

Ehhh.. if Webb is a top-5 corner then I think we can lump Vontae in that discussion is well.

[Dustin]

Ehhh.. if Webb is a top-5 corner then I think we can lump Vontae in that discussion is well.

IIRC Webb only allows a passer rating of 55 when QBs throw at him

[schwamm]

Not sure what kind of supporting data you want, but I'll give it a shot. Keep in mind when I say "perform better" I don't necessarily just mean interceptions and pass deflections.

Devin McCourty (Patriots), TJ Ward (Browns), Jairus Byrd (Bills), Michael Huff (Raiders), Antrell Rolle/Kenny Phillips (Giants)

Bethea (Colts)- 21st in pass defense, 29th in rush defense, 23rd in sacks

McCourty (Pats)- 29th in pass defense, 9th in rush defense, 15th in sacks

TJ Ward (Browns)- 25th in pass defense, 19th in rush defense, 8th in sacks

Jairus Byrd (Bills)- 10th in pass defense, 31st in rush defense, 18th in sacks

Michael Huff (Raiders) 20th in pass defense, 18th in rush defense, 31st in sacks

Antrell Rolle/ Kenny Phillips (Giants) 28th in pass defense, 25th in rush defense, 22nd in sacks.

I really appreciate your sincere effort to respond positively to my request. FWIW, I guess I'm getting a little frustrated that some posters are very willing to toss out random statements as facts (even ones I agree with, sometimes), but do hardly anything to back up their assertions.

You've now provided a good start, but you said "safeties who play better with worse supporting casts"... I see a list of guys about equal to Bethea, and no indication of why their situations are worse.

Can you refine?

[BleedBlu8792]

"Sanders was done when he went to the Ravens"....No he had some left in the tank-5 picks

in 25 games (He was the nickel corner or else he would have started more games and likely had more picks), He also had a 48 yard Int return for a TD,

"McCallister was good, but he wasn't the most reliable"

Mccalister also had 26 picks in his 10 year career and was a pro bowler, Of course Ed Reed has had his times with sub standard (aka bad) Corners thats just part of a roster changing because of salary cap purposes, you cant keep every good or great player on your team

Jennings had what, 10 picks this year? I don't believe anyone is crowning him. Wasn't Sanders retired for 2 years then came out to play with the Ravens? Regardless, he wasn't anywhere close to the pre-2000's Deion.

Reed has shined regardless of the talent around him, Bethea has not. I agree with the point of him NOT being paid anywhere near what Reed has been making.

[Dustin]

I really appreciate your sincere effort to respond positively to my request. FWIW, I guess I'm getting a little frustrated that some posters are very willing to toss out random statements as facts (even ones I agree with, sometimes), but do hardly anything to back up their assertions.

You've now provided a good start, but you said "safeties who play better with worse supporting casts"... I see a list of guys about equal to Bethea, and no indication of why their situations are worse.

Can you refine?

 

Maybe worse supporting cast is wrong. How about just as bad?

 

I wouldn't consider anybody on the Chargers defense as a player that's in the top half of their position, yet Eric Weddle still remains the best safety in the league.

 

On the Bills, the only capable pass rushers are Mario Williams (who wasn't very good last year) and Kyle Williams, yet he's still the 2nd best safety in the league. 

 

Same thing goes for Devin McCourty. He's one of the lone bright spots on New England's defense, despite a less than stellar supporting cast.

 

None of these guys missed that amount of tackles that Bethea did, nor give up the amount of yards or receptions that he did.

 

I'm not implying that Bethea is a bum, but he's just a solid safety. He's not a game changer.

[BleedBlu8792]

IIRC Webb only allows a passer rating of 55 when QBs throw at him

 

Interesting. Didn't Toler have similar stats in Arizona? 

[Dustin]

Interesting. Didn't Toler have similar stats in Arizona? 

 

Yeah, but Toler was a nickel corner.

[schwamm]

Maybe worse supporting cast is wrong. How about just as bad?

I wouldn't consider anybody on the Chargers defense as a player that's in the top half of their position, yet Eric Weddle still remains the best safety in the league.

On the Bills, the only capable pass rushers are Mario Williams (who wasn't very good last year) and Kyle Williams, yet he's still the 2nd best safety in the league.

Same thing goes for Devin McCourty. He's one of the lone bright spots on New England's defense, despite a less than stellar supporting cast.

None of these guys missed that amount of tackles that Bethea did, nor give up the amount of yards or receptions that he did.

I'm not implying that Bethea is a bum, but he's just a solid safety. He's not a game changer.

Thanks Dustin. I appreciate the effort!

I'm inclined to believe the Colts have some core players who have struggled recently and who will likely see a resurgence in this next season. For my money, a short list would include Mathis, Bethea, Brown, and the OLine as a unit. But that's all just speculation on my part.

[BleedBlu8792]

Yeah, but Toler was a nickel corner.

 

Ah, I thought he played outside.

[Gavin]

That's all well and good Gavin, but missed tackles are missed tackles and loose coverage is loose coverage. His supporting cast certainly did not help his cause but they cannot be the sole bearer of his performances. Now I do still believe he is a fairly solid player, but I am not sure he schematically fits that well and it is possible his best years are behind him... but who knows.

 

People talk a lot about his history of high tackle numbers. Do you know who has high tackle numbers? Someone who is loose in coverage, lets their man catch the ball, and then stops them... 20 yards after the line of scrimmage.

I believe some posted he had 10 missed tackles....Out of 100 he made plus 7 pass defensed...Im gonna go ahead and trust he is just fine....At 28, Is he Ed Reed? No but Reed also has never made 100 tackles in his career compared to Betheas 4

[AntonMcG]

I believe some posted he had 10 missed tackles....Out of 100 he made plus 7 pass defensed...Im gonna go ahead and trust he is just fine....At 28, Is he Ed Reed? No but Reed also has never made 100 tackles in his career compared to Betheas 4

 

Read the second paragraph on my last post.

[Dustin]

I believe some posted he had 10 missed tackles....Out of 100 he made plus 7 pass defensed...Im gonna go ahead and trust he is just fine....At 28, Is he Ed Reed? No but Reed also has never made 100 tackles in his career compared to Betheas 4

 

tackles aren't a good indication of play. Reed never made a lot of tackles because defenses never threw at him.

[Gavin]

Jennings had what, 10 picks this year? I don't believe anyone is crowning him. Wasn't Sanders retired for 2 years then came out to play with the Ravens? Regardless, he wasn't anywhere close to the pre-2000's Deion.

Reed has shined regardless of the talent around him, Bethea has not. I agree with the point of him NOT being paid anywhere near what Reed has been making.

Jennings is not in Mcalisters league-Until Jennings can put together something remotely close to 1 pick per year, 3 pick 2 years, 6 picks 1 year, 4 picks 1 year then Jennings should be in the discussion........Not 1 great year....At 29 already......As to what Sanders was or wasn't those years with the Ravens....He was good enough to return a td for 48 yards off a pick, he likely wasn't what he once was of course, He was an older guy playing a young mans game, But he was still good enough to go and play well, Im not trying to say Bethea is in Reeds league because obviously he is not but he is certainly should be low on the list of worries at least till the end of this year when his contract is up but maybe we should look at Clinton Dix or Ed Reynolds at FS in next years draft