Here is a What If for you...

[GoColts8818]

So it's the time of the off-season where there isn't a lot of football going on and I sat down and watched From Elway to Marino the other day.  That lead me to a couple of interesting scenarios.  One of which has already been talked about, what if the Colts would have gotten Marino.  The other I haven't heard much talk about.  What if the 49ers had pulled the trigger on the trade that would have sent Montana to the Colts?  My question isn't so much of a what do you think would have happened to the Colts.  It's this.

 

Do you think Joe Montana would still be thought of as the best QB to ever play the game had he been traded to the Colts for John Elway? 

 

Also has been made about the fact the teams on Montana won with were some of the most loaded teams in NFL history.  So had he come to place like the Colts that would not have had as much talent around him as the 49ers put around him do you think his talent would have shown threw anyways or would history maybe look at a guy like John Elway as the greatest QB ever? 

[BOTT]

John Elway > Joe Montana as it stands now....and it's really not close

[CR91]

John Elway > Joe Montana as it stands now....and it's really not close

Joe cool never lost on the big stage and he also won two without Jerry rice. Also beat John elway in the super bowl

[BOTT]

Joe cool never lost on the big stage and he also won two without Jerry rice. Also beat John elway in the super bowl

That's a great team accomplishment

[ColtJ82]

IMO...if Montana was a Colt, he never would have seen a stage big enough to become as well regarded as he is. I do wonder if the Colts would even be in Indy had Elway suited up. Probably would have helped the stadium deal in Baltimore along.  Potentially the same with Marino.

 

Fact remains, Jim Irsay is 1000x times the person and franchise owner that Robert was. 

[pacolts56]

That's a great team accomplishment

Which is exactly why these QB 1 vs QB 2 threads wind up no where and a clear frontrunner really can't be quantified.

 

Either one of those guys probably would have done just enough to take us out of the Peyton Manning sweepstakes.

[James]

That's a great team accomplishment

No Davis. no Super Bowl for Elway.

See how it works?

[BOTT]

No Davis. no Super Bowl for Elway.

See how it works?

Yeah, that's not really true. But essentially, you are downgrading Elway because the broncos had a potent running game....really?

[Coltscodeblue]

I'm fine how things have turned out.....

 

Go Colts!!!!!

[jmac_48]

To the original question, at that time, either of those quarterbacks would have had a hard time doing much with the colts.

Ownership, management, and the dearth of talent would have doomed Elway or Montana!

 

The comparason of those two QB's will go on forever... Two of the greatest ever.

Elway did more with less talent around him.

Montana did exactly what he was supposed to do with the talent on those 49er teams, and seldom made the fatal mistake.

But, my oh my, what Elway accomplished when his FO put the talent together for him to excell is amazing.

Back to back SB wins and I am quite sure had he stayed for 2000 it would have been a three-peat and Terreyl Davis would not have been injured and been in the HOF by now!

 

Had either of those guys been a Colt during that era both would have been beat to a pulp, and been also-rans for the HOF.

I am a Colts fan, and have been for a long time but the Colts sucked big time back then and many players careers were doomed because of who they played for.

 

I am so happy that Mr. Irsay and the Colts organization has made the turn and now know how to produce successful teams.

Back then they needed night vision glasses just to find their own arses, now the future is so bright everybody needs ultra UV glasses just to see today!

 

Sorry to go off the rails there for a bit...

But I'm just very stoked about what is happening in Indianapolis right now!

 

EDIT: As for Marino, I feel for the guy he may have been the best ever throwing the ball, but if he had come to the Colts then, same thing except worse... he would have never appeared in a SB.

[Fx Stryker]

Which is exactly why these QB 1 vs QB 2 threads wind up no where and a clear frontrunner really can't be quantified.

 

Either one of those guys probably would have done just enough to take us out of the Peyton Manning sweepstakes.

 

Not Montana.

 

Technically we could have still traded for Harbaugh because Montana started to decline. Thus the Cinderella '95. All the way up to '98 and beyond.

 

Elways may have possibly would have went down as a 5-time Super Bowl Champion. XIX, XXIII, XXIV, XXXII, XXXIII.

[southwest1]

I taped that 30 for 30 episode finally in my DVR. As soon as I watch it, I'm chime in on the Elway/Marino question not before. Or any potential hypothetical scenarios that follow...

 

I'm not ignoring your intriguing question GoColts8818. Once I see it, I will give my feedback; not before. I can't comment on something I haven't even seen yet. I'm real strict about that. 

[southwest1]

 

 

 

Elways may have possibly would have went down as a 5-time Super Bowl Champion. XIX, XXIII, XXIV, XXXII, XXXIII.

Yes, that is a valid point FX.  HC Dan Reeves was great at getting the Broncos & Falcons to the SB, but he always fell short crossing the finish line. Just like HC John Fox, Reeves loved to play it safe at the most critical moments I'm afraid. I often wonder, since John Elway is the VP of Football Operations now, does he reflect upon his Dan Reeves years as a QB & say to himself could I fire a coach that was handicapping my franchise field general from winning a championship? Hmmm...

[jmac_48]

Elways may have possibly would have went down as a 5-time Super Bowl Champion. XIX, XXIII, XXIV, XXXII, XXXIII.

Dang, didn't think about that, except Coach Walsh may not have put up with Elway's penchant of going off script.

[TMPHBITEU]

I can't comment on something I haven't even seen yet. I'm real strict about that. 

Commenting about not commenting on something is still commenting about said something?

On another note, I really shouldn't be this drunk at 8 AM.

[jmac_48]

@ SW1. you're absolutely right Reeves hamstrung Elway so much, I respected him but his offensive approach just put him at a disadvantage.

Hence, Elway having so many 4th quarter comebacks, after Reeves cut him loose.

I'm seeing those qualities in Luck (comebacks), must be something with those Stanford genes. lol

[southwest1]

I realize that Josh McDaniels was fired, but Broncos owner Pat Bowlen did that. Not John Elway. Plus, Elway hired Fox & you usually cling very tightly to your 1st big splash HC hire as a new front office man. I like John Fox. I just wanna see a killer instinct occasionally from him during a Playoff game. That's all I'm saying. 

 

Could Elway fire Fox if he had too? I don't know. Fox's HC spot is safe for now. Fox believes in a reliable running game, which I do respect and admire though. 

[southwest1]

Commenting about not commenting on something is still commenting about said something?

On another note, I really shouldn't be this drunk at 8 AM.

Okay, I will admit that even in my sober & fully functioning position that my statement was ironic even oxymo ronic in scope like academic intelligence or profound lunacy   

 

But, I was referring to the Elway to Marino documentary on ESPN that I haven't witnessed yet. I do however know John Elway's NFL career very well. That's what I was comfortable commenting on right now TMPHBITEAU. 

 

Bottoms up? Just Kidding! 

[southwest1]

@ SW1. you're absolutely right Reeves hamstrung Elway so much, I respected him but his offensive approach just put him at a disadvantage.

Hence, Elway having so many 4th quarter comebacks, after Reeves cut him loose.

I'm seeing those qualities in Luck (comebacks), must be something with those Stanford genes. lol

Thank you jmac_48. It was fascinating to watch John Elway's career skyrocket under HC Mike Shanahan with SB hardware to boot. Plus, Dan Reeves was so soft spoken in interviews I have a hard time trying to picture Reeves tearing a lethargic athlete a new one if you know what I mean. But, INDY's own Tony Dungy was a soft spoken, laid back HC too so I guess that approach can work under the right circumstances I suppose.

 

Yes, Andrew Luck is definitely the comeback kid. No argument there. 

[Deathiltis]

I think John Elway is a tad overrated, BUT I do think he's better than Montana strictly speaking overall skill.

[Coltscodeblue]

I watched Back to the Future on Encore last night and you know what Marty did, Changed 1 tiny thing and a cascade effect happened, change something in the Colts past and today would be different, afraid what that would be actually be it good or bad. And who can argue that movie wasn't the best in the 80's, what can beat a time traveling Delorean with a flux capacitor  :}LOL

 

Again I'm happy with how it has turned out, Indy got a classy NFL franchise and a brand new stadium and just so happened to have blue seats that matched the Colts, I think someone knew something and took a chance on the color just in case, Indy sports acquisition committee"< I guess there might have been something like that" They did shell out a lot of money for a state of the art dome stadium a few extra bucks for a committee wouldn't be extreme and there must have been a spy in Baltimore maybe and that someone talking in Roberts ear..... 

 

Go Colts!!!!!

[unitaswestand]

That's a joke.  Joe Montana was a far superior QB than John Elway.  Let's not forgot that Montana won his first Super Bowl with a team of mostly nobodies. Bill Ring, Jeff Moore, and Lenvil Elliot at RB?  Dwight Clark was only good WR.  Most of the players were replaced over the following years.  It is completely false to say Montana always had great players around him, because he didn't.

 

John Elway won two Super Bowls because of the offensive line and Terrell Davis. Their running attack was so good that Bubby Brister probably could have won one of those Super Bowls.  Elways never had great statistics.   They talk about his comebacks, but that is because he often played badly for 3 quarters.   Montana never threw a single interception in a Super Bowl.

 

I think Elway is rated so highly because of his physical attributes and "The Drive".  But if you look at his career statistics and his miserable outings in his first few Super Bowls says much.

[trueblueblood]

John Elway > Joe Montana as it stands now....and it's really not close

What are you smoking...

[James]

Yeah, that's not really true. But essentially, you are downgrading Elway because the broncos had a potent running game....really?

Actually it is partly true. Like Montana Rice etc. Essentially you're doing the same when talking about Montana, no difference. Just stop. Montana is widely regarded as the best ever. No one ever talks about Elway as the GOAT, so just stop this nonsense.

[BOTT]

Actually it is partly true. Like Montana Rice etc. Essentially you're doing the same when talking about Montana, no difference. Just stop. Montana is widely regarded as the best ever. No one ever talks about Elway as the GOAT, so just stop this nonsense.

Only one talking nonsense is you. I'm the one who said it was a team game, so I don't even know what your point is.

So please, just stop your nonsense.

[coltsfanatic24]

I think Marino was a better QB then both Montana and Elway just didn't have a great team around him to win a superbowl.

[Dustin]

ITT: People overrate Montana.

[jshipp23]

John Elway > Joe Montana as it stands now....and it's really not close

The difference in careers is Bill Walsh>Dan Reeves....Elway is the most all-around talented QB ever, but Luck has the Potential to even surpass him..

[rockywoj]

What happens to a guy like Montana had he gone to a team of lesser talent?

Pure speculation, which means there can be no right or wrong, but think of ...

Archie Manning with the Saints. Very good QB, really bad team. Had Archie been on a talented team, there's a really good chance he'd be in Hall of Fame discussions.

At the same time, however, GOAT caliber players tend to find a way to win, especially when they're at the QB position. Fun to think about, though.

[Qwiz]

I think Montana would have found ways to elevate the team, and he probably still would have gotten a couple of rings. Joe Cool was the real deal.

[jshipp23]

I think Montana would have found ways to elevate the team, and he probably still would have gotten a couple of rings. Joe Cool was the real deal.

Yeah..He got KC to the AFC Championship when he was at the end with a broken back..He is def top 5 still, just behind Elway,Marino, Brady, and Manning...

[Qwiz]

Yeah..He got KC to the AFC Championship when he was at the end with a broken back..He is def top 5 still, just behind Elway,Marino, Brady, and Manning...

I think that is a good list, I would just have them in a different order. Always depends who you're asking I suppose.

[SOMDColtsfan]

Good questions. The Colts organization was in such disarray back then I don't think the man above could have made a difference. Look at the current Lions, loaded with talent but such a losing culture going on. It all starts with the front office in my opinion 

[pacolts56]

To the OP's original question....both of these guys would have probably improved the Colts over the span of their careers but we had so many other issues during those years that speculating how much better they'd have made us is anyone's guess.

 

Here's what we know...

 

John Elway....for all his physical attributes, threw 300 TDs and 226 INT's....which goes to his decision making as a passer and explains his pedestrian 79.9 career rating. In his first 3 Super Bowl appearances...performance-wise...Elway went from pretty good to lousy to absolutely putrid when the Montana-led 49ers blew them off the planet. Even in his Super Bowl wins...his numbers were no where near what the so-called greatest QB of all time would produce.

 

Joe Montana...on the other hand....rang up a much better 92.3 career rating than Elway and his playoff performances are still the standard by which QBs are measured. In one less season he threw 273 TDs and 139 INTs.

 

So these aren't theories....this is what actually happened and results are the only etched-in-stone certainty we have to go on. Opinions over who is the GOAT will vary far and wide...but my personal view is John Elway cracks the Top 10 but is simply not the greatest QB in NFL history.

 

We can theorize all we want, and its fun to do....and yes, its a team sport....but based on what they actually did at the position, Joe Montana was the more successful QB and played the QB position smarter.

 

 

 

 

[BOTT]

To the OP's original question....both of these guys would have probably improved the Colts over the span of their careers but we had so many other issues during those years that speculating how much better they'd have made us is anyone's guess.

 

Here's what we know...

 

John Elway....for all his physical attributes, threw 300 TDs and 226 INT's....which goes to his decision making as a passer and explains his pedestrian 79.9 career rating. In his first 3 Super Bowl appearances...performance-wise...Elway went from pretty good to lousy to absolutely putrid when the Montana-led 49ers blew them off the planet. Even in his Super Bowl wins...his numbers were no where near what the so-called greatest QB of all time would produce.

 

Joe Montana...on the other hand....rang up a much better 92.3 career rating than Elway and his playoff performances are still the standard by which QBs are measured. In one less season he threw 273 TDs and 139 INTs.

 

So these aren't theories....this is what actually happened and results are the only etched-in-stone certainty we have to go on. Opinions over who is the GOAT will vary far and wide...but my personal view is John Elway cracks the Top 10 but is simply not the greatest QB in NFL history.

 

We can theorize all we want, and its fun to do....and yes, its a team sport....but based on what they actually did at the position, Joe Montana was the more successful QB and played the QB position smarter.

Using that criteria, Robert Griffin was head and shoulders above Andrew Luck last season........

[pacolts56]

Using that criteria, Robert Griffin was head and shoulders above Andrew Luck last season........

By statistical measure...he did come out ahead of Andrew. They both had their shining moments.

 

But being a team sport....we can chase our tails forever with a debate over all these guys and wind up with different opinions.

 

I only know that by two widely accepted methods that are used to separate top performing NFL QBs.....QB ratings and rings....Joe Montana tops John Elway.

 

And Montana also wasn't thrice made a fool of in the Super Bowl like Elway was. Those were AFC Championship teams Elway QB'd....not the 80's Colts.....and he and his Broncos got smoked.

[BOTT]

By statistical measure...he did come out ahead of Andrew. They both had their shining moments.

 

But being a team sport....we can chase our tails forever with a debate over all these guys and wind up with different opinions.

 

I only know that by two widely accepted methods that are used to separate top performing NFL QBs.....QB ratings and rings....Joe Montana tops John Elway.

 

And Montana also wasn't thrice made a fool of in the Super Bowl like Elway was. Those were AFC Championship teams Elway QB'd....not the 80's Colts.....and he and his Broncos got smoked.

...and he was probably the only QB that could have gotten those Bronco teams to the Super Bowl.

And using passer ratings and Super Bowl rings to separate quarterbacks, in a team sport as you say, is monumentally flawed.

[GoColts8818]

Threads can take whatever direction they want but I wasn't really asking who was better Montana or Elway.  That's a whole other debate.

 

I am more or less asking do you think Montana would still be thought of as the greatest QB of all time, like he is by many, had he played with the Colts and not all those loaded 49ers teams?

 

I also know there isn't going to be a firm answer to a "what if" question.  I am not looking for that.  I am just interested in hearing peoples' opinions on the subject. 

[Fx Stryker]

I think that is a good list, I would just have them in a different order. Always depends who you're asking I suppose.

 

I am guessing:

 

Montana, Brady, Elway, Manning, Marino. Right?

[Qwiz]

I am guessing:

Montana, Brady, Elway, Manning, Marino. Right?

Wow that was a very good guess . Yeah that is the order I'd have them in.