Arians on the Grand Design of the Offense....

[NewColtsFan]

In another thread, there's a link to an IndyStar story by Bob Kravitz...

It's a story about who is better, Luck or RG3... but, that's not important to this thread...

This is... it's a quote from Arians about how much the Colts have Luck throwing deep... (most in the league)

Here's the quote:

Interim coach Bruce Arians said it's all part of the grand design: "If you go back and look at my history, I throw it deep more than anybody in the league. We do spread people out and throw it quickly; we think we have everything, but we also use our tight ends and backs to help the offensive line. We want to throw it to the guys who are paid to catch it, and hand it off to the guys who are paid to run it. We're not a West Coast offense by any means."

I confess I sorta knew this months ago.... but now that I've seen it actually play out on the football field, I'm not wild about it.

To me, using Luck in this way leads directly to his 53% completion percentage. It's a waste of his talent which is that he's hyper-accurate. You can't tell it from this offense, but his last two years at Stanford (70+%) says that he is. At least he is in the West Coast Offense which we are not running.

You're asking a marathon runner to be a sprinter... you're asking a singles hitter to be a home run hitter. It's a miss-use of talent. And, in the long run, I don't think it's in the Colts' best interest either. It's hard to sustain drives all game long with a 53% QB. I think we've all seen that for 6 weeks now. You can do it for a half. You can do it for a drive here, or there. But, it's much tougher to get in a rhythm, and stay in a rhythm.

This will be interesting to watch in the years to come. Do we stay with this offense? Or is a change made at some point?

[Moncrief]

Intetesting. Haven't gave it much thought. I figure Luck will either adjust or management will adjust hint hint new OC

[Gavin]

Arians is 61 years old and was retired before the Colts came calling after Pitt let him go, I doubt Arians is really here more then 2-3 years so at this point we are just going to hope that Luck can adapt to Arians style of play calling, Arians was responsible for turning Pitt into a pass happy team which is why he was let go, Pitt wanted to get back to actual Pittsburgh football running and taking some pressure off Ben. With all that said Arians was here when we first had Manning, he just wasn't the O coordinator then. I'd rather have a guy like Rick Dennison and his playcalling style and the blocking scheme as well that he uses (Zone Stretch blocking scheme), He has Matt Schaub playing at a high level, well helped immensely anyway by rolling Schaub out making plays look exactly the same yet the result of the play is different, I didnt like the Arians move for the reasons we are seeing now as well

[Gavin]

said that wrong, He makes plays look different but in reality they are basically just different looks but some are the same plays

[FireJimCaldwell]

Yet, I do believe I've seen one or two people around here call this a WCO.

It has more run & shoot(4&5 wide)(deeper routes) than it does WCO.

A WCO guru would have been the route to take to make Luck's transformation as smooth as possible, and it is a key factor in the other rookies making a smoother transition.

The marathon runner vs. sprinter is a good analogy.

Arians isn't doing Luck/offense/team any favors.

Yeah Arians was here for a couple of years with Peyton as QB coach, but everyone knows that Moore was the ones calling the shots, and Moore is the one Manning had a bond with. Arians had a hand in developing Tim Couch, another #1 draft pick but that didn't work out well. He was Roethlisberger's QB coach as well, and then became his OC after a few years. Roethlisberger seemed to want him to stay. I wish he would have.

The scheme itself isn't a beneficial one for a rookie quarterback and neither is his predictability/and or ego to call things a certain way.

[Hans Moleman]

If it helps hone Luck's deep accuracy and placement, I won't complain as long as he's not getting killed. I think it's a move that'll pay dividends in the long run moreso than inflating his completion % by running mostly short passes.

That said, Andrew needs to work on hitting his checkdown receivers. I've seen him miss wide open guys for good yardage because he was too zeroed in on his deep target. But that'll come in time.

[Gavin]

If it helps hone Luck's deep accuracy and placement, I won't complain as long as he's not getting killed. I think it's a move that'll pay dividends in the long run moreso than inflating his completion % by running mostly short passes.

That said, Andrew needs to work on hitting his checkdown receivers. I've seen him miss wide open guys for good yardage because he was too zeroed in on his deep target. But that'll come in time.

Thats likely a product of what Arians wants Luck to do keep his eyes down field in my opinion, Personally I say look for the easiest throw mixed with taking a few timely shots down field, short to long in terms of passing is what Luck should be doing now in my opinion. we clearly dont have the O Line to run long developing routes several times a game, whether we get long yardage or short yardage pass plays it still results in the same thing.....moving the ball and moving the chains, the problem with Arians offense (well one problem) is it hasn't helped Luck at least certainly not completion percentage wise

[GrizzColt]

I agree but Luck has the power to check down and Luck has the go ahead to hit his secondary and tertiary receivers. Peyton didn't have the time, in his last year here, to find those guys either. So, until we get that stellar Oline, he's going to need to check down more, run the ball more, play action more, and hand the ball off more. He should throw the deep ball fewer and more selectively, preferrably when the defense isn't expecting it.

[Everyone]

I'm not knocking Luck or Arians, but Luck is not just missing guys 30 yards down field, he is also missing them 8 yards out. So I'm not gonna blame Arians for his inaccuracy. If you look at lucks first season at Stanford he was only at 56% completion then the following year jumped up to 70%. I think he is still just getting used to the speed of the game. The only thing completion wise I could possibly blame on the coach is maybe luck knows 100% of the plays and routes and the young receivers may not, because they don't have Lucks computer brain. So maybe they are running plays that the rookies don't fully know and luck throws it and they are in the wrong position, I don't know it's just a thought.

[mvbighead]

Lucks completion percentage is a greater indicator of drops than a lot of things. TY has dropped quite a few balls. Fleener has dropped some easy ones. Wayne has even dropped some. Brown dropped everything thrown his way early on.

I don't think his percentages would rival RG3 if all those drops were catches, but it would be much better than 53. And the sad thing is that a lot of them were routine catches, with an accurately placed ball.

This entire offense is in transition. It's a different system than years past. RG3 is the newest member to his offense. Luck, Wayne, Avery, Hilton, Fleener, Allen, etc. are the newest members of this offense, as this is Arians' first year. I see no reason not to give it some time.

[deadman]

Looks like someone is making a mountain out of a mole hill. Luck is a rookie, rookies make mistakes.

Let the season roll through and then make your assessment.

[YOUR GM]

I'm not knocking Luck or Arians, but Luck is not just missing guys 30 yards down field, he is also missing them 8 yards out. So I'm not gonna blame Arians for his inaccuracy. If you look at lucks first season at Stanford he was only at 56% completion then the following year jumped up to 70%. I think he is still just getting used to the speed of the game. The only thing completion wise I could possibly blame on the coach is maybe luck knows 100% of the plays and routes and the young receivers may not, because they don't have Lucks computer brain. So maybe they are running plays that the rookies don't fully know and luck throws it and they are in the wrong position, I don't know it's just a thought.

I agree that Lucks accuracy is an issue on deep AND short passes, but I still feel the root cause is Arians play-calling. The hits Luck is taking on a weekly basis are directly Arians fault, and as a result, are affecting Luck's confidence in the pocket and accuracy. To me, his inaccuracy comes off more as a nervous tick than it does someone who just can't put touch on the ball. I say this because we've seen him make just as many impressive throws (when he has time) as we've seen him make bad ones this season. If you want to blame the o-line for Luck taking serious hits, that still falls on the play-caller, who is stubborn enough to continually call deep routes despite the fact that his line isn't giving Luck enough time to deliver the ball comfortably.

I tried to give Arians a chance but it's clear he is nothing more than a stubborn coordinator with a mediocre track record. Comments like he made in this article don't help his cause, either. I'll be glad when Pagano and the front office wise-up, and realize Arians was never a good fit for what they're trying to accomplish. Pagano said he wanted a ball control offense that will eat clock and help the defense. Arians, apparently, doesn't care about his head coach's vision of the offense, and develops gameplans centered around a quick strike, passing offense (a direct contradiction to what Pagano said this offense would be)

I'm over Arians already. Finish out your contract and move on to retirement, please. You're a genius in your own mind, only

[Mameluc]

chill out people, its been 6 games into a completely new scheme.

[gbrads_rants]

How would Jon Gruden look as an OC??

[TKnight24]

I can't really blame the Play-Style until we get a O-Line. If we get a better O-Line & still struggle, then maybe you can point the Fingers to Arians. But at the same time, we're still putting Points on the Board (Not as much as we should, but we're Scoring) I admit we have left NUMEROUS Points on the Field that should've been on the Scoreboard. And it's just something that we hope can get Fixed or people get more Familiar with this System & we improve as the year goes on.

Cause imo, I don't think Arians Offense is that complicated but with a Young Team, you'll see the Struggles

[krunk]

I'm not knocking Luck or Arians, but Luck is not just missing guys 30 yards down field, he is also missing them 8 yards out. So I'm not gonna blame Arians for his inaccuracy. If you look at lucks first season at Stanford he was only at 56% completion then the following year jumped up to 70%. I think he is still just getting used to the speed of the game. The only thing completion wise I could possibly blame on the coach is maybe luck knows 100% of the plays and routes and the young receivers may not, because they don't have Lucks computer brain. So maybe they are running plays that the rookies don't fully know and luck throws it and they are in the wrong position, I don't know it's just a thought.

I like what you have said here. Especially the "he is also missing them 8 yards out" statement. This kid can be very effective in this offense. Sure it would have made more sense to leave him in the west coast offense, but if we did that then people on this forum would find more things to complain about when something appears to not work.

I don't think it's an offensive coordinator problem at all, it's an execution problem. He's making the right reads most of the time, and the plays have been there. I don't think you can totally pin it on the offensive line either. We've all seen several plays that should have been completed if the throw was made the right way, or the receiver caught the ball. If the plays were not being made due to the offensive line as some suggest, then I think you could say our circumstances do not fit what the scheme(coordinator problem) is asking Andrew to do. Personally I think there are plenty of quick throws in Arians scheme if you want to insist that the offensive line is the problem.

Even if we switched to a short to deep passing game it still does not change the fact that this kid is sailing balls and under throwing them. This is mainly happening because he is finding that NFL coverage is much tighter than college coverage, so he is having to time the throws much quicker and put more touch on the pass than what he has had to do previously. I think every rookie finds this out. I've seen Jake Locker sailing and badly over throwing balls in the same manner due to this issue.

Luck himself has said Arians offense is very quarterback friendly. He has not given any hints that what the offense requires does not suit him, or the current team circumstances.

[Restored]

I feel the problem has been execution rather than play calling. And as others have noted, pretty much every player on offense is new to the system. That leads to timing issues on throws and recievers not being ready and usually dropping passes (TY Hilton). It's not something that's going to be great overnight. We could put training wheels on Luck like the Redskins are doing with RG3. But Carolina tried a similar approach with Cam Newton last year. Once teams had a off-season to study it however, we all see how the Panthers are doing. I could see similar things happening down the road to the Redskins. There was this notion before the draft that RG3 probably would have the better numbers to start but Luck would surpass him in the long term. That already is proving to be true.

All in all, I don't have a problem with Bruce's offense. I think it combines a great running approach and great vertical passing attack when its executed correctly. There's a reason Ben Rothlisberger was so upset when Arians left. The Colts just have to get healthy on the o line and simply grow together. Rome wasn't built overnight.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Lucks completion percentage is a greater indicator of drops than a lot of things. TY has dropped quite a few balls. Fleener has dropped some easy ones. Wayne has even dropped some. Brown dropped everything thrown his way early on.

I don't think his percentages would rival RG3 if all those drops were catches, but it would be much better than 53. And the sad thing is that a lot of them were routine catches, with an accurately placed ball.

This entire offense is in transition. It's a different system than years past. RG3 is the newest member to his offense. Luck, Wayne, Avery, Hilton, Fleener, Allen, etc. are the newest members of this offense, as this is Arians' first year. I see no reason not to give it some time.

I can't really buy that. Obviously any dropped pass that would have been caught would increase the CMP%, but drops haven't been as big of an issue as many think.

Every QB has drops. Some more than others, some less than others.

In 250 passes Luck has had 13 drops. So adding those to his total would put him just below 59%, but that fuzzy math could be done with every QB. If the Colts were among the top 5 in the league in drops, then I would agree that it was a large contributor to the #. I'd say the issue falls on Luck himself and Arians scheme/play-calling.

The league average per team is 12.5, which makes Luck/Colts have the league average once it is rounded up. The bigger issues is off target throws whether they are overthrown, underthrown or thrown wide.

[FireJimCaldwell]

How would Jon Gruden look as an OC??

He wouldn't look like anything as an OC because he would never take that position.

[FireJimCaldwell]

I'm not knocking Luck or Arians, but Luck is not just missing guys 30 yards down field, he is also missing them 8 yards out. So I'm not gonna blame Arians for his inaccuracy. If you look at lucks first season at Stanford he was only at 56% completion then the following year jumped up to 70%. I think he is still just getting used to the speed of the game. The only thing completion wise I could possibly blame on the coach is maybe luck knows 100% of the plays and routes and the young receivers may not, because they don't have Lucks computer brain. So maybe they are running plays that the rookies don't fully know and luck throws it and they are in the wrong position, I don't know it's just a thought.

You make some good points.

To your last statement, that doesn't seem to be the case because as I believe it was Krunk pointed out for the most part the reads have been correct, it's just that when there are misses the throws are slightly off, which to me would point to mechanics first. If he were scrambling 5+ times a game then I think that point would have more validity to it, because at that point his progressions would be disrupted and he would have to bail on the play. Obviously through 6 games there can be instances of miscommunication which could be on the route runner, could be on the QB, but I believe those have been very few.

I almost want to compare it to a high school basketball coach lowering the rim 6 inches. Shots are going to be off until the shooters adjust. Eventually they will dial it in and start hitting more shots.

[krunk]

I can't really buy that. Obviously any dropped pass that would have been caught would increase the CMP%, but drops haven't been as big of an issue as many think.

Every QB has drops. Some more than others, some less than others.

In 250 passes Luck has had 13 drops. So adding those to his total would put him just below 59%, but that fuzzy math could be done with every QB. If the Colts were among the top 5 in the league in drops, then I would agree that it was a large contributor to the #. I'd say the issue falls on Luck himself and Arians scheme/play-calling.

The league average per team is 12.5, which makes Luck/Colts have the league average once it is rounded up. The bigger issues is off target throws whether they are overthrown, underthrown or thrown wide.

What does it have to do with the play call if the kid is missing wide open throws? Not only wide open throws on difficult angles, but also wide open throws that should be easy to make. For example, throwing the ball over Fleeners head in the end zone in the Jets game.

Give me some clarity on this. I'm sure you will because I find you to be a very good communicator of what you think are the issues normally.

[FireJimCaldwell]

I like what you have said here. Especially the "he is also missing them 8 yards out" statement. This kid can be very effective in this offense. Sure it would have made more sense to leave him in the west coast offense, but if we did that then people on this forum would find more things to complain about when something appears to not work.

I don't think it's an offensive coordinator problem at all, it's an execution problem. He's making the right reads most of the time, and the plays have been there. I don't think you can totally pin it on the offensive line either. We've all seen several plays that should have been completed if the throw was made the right way, or the receiver caught the ball. If the plays were not being made due to the offensive line as some suggest, then I think you could say our circumstances do not fit what the scheme(coordinator problem) is asking Andrew to do. Personally I think there are plenty of quick throws in Arians scheme if you want to insist that the offensive line is the problem.

Even if we switched to a short to deep passing game it still does not change the fact that this kid is sailing balls and under throwing them. This is mainly happening because he is finding that NFL coverage is much tighter than college coverage, so he is having to time the throws much quicker and put more touch on the pass than what he has had to do previously. I think every rookie finds this out. I've seen Jake Locker sailing and badly over throwing balls in the same manner due to this issue.

Luck himself has said Arians offense is very quarterback friendly. He has not given any hints that what the offense requires does not suit him, or the current team circumstances.

Again, some great points. I think we share some of the same thoughts, except that I believe I would assign a little bit more blame to Arians and the predictability of his offense being a larger contributor to passes being broken up/defenses which would also be paired with the inaccurate throws.

If he were completing 75%+ on throws under 10 yards, then I believe the scheme would become the biggest problem, but he's been improving. His throws 1-10 is finally up over 60%, and throws BLOS are approaching it.

I guess one of my biggest problems with the scheme is that Arians seems to want the 25 yard play rather than three 8 yard plays. With the versatility of the tight ends and/or Brown when he is healthy, an adjustment to the approach would allow more targets out in routes. The longer routes do require more protection and that takes a target away on each play.

[FireJimCaldwell]

What does it have to do with the play call if the kid is missing wide open throws? Not only wide open throws on difficult angles, but also wide open throws that should be easy to make. For example, throwing the ball over Fleeners head in the end zone in the Jets game.

Give me some clarity on this. I'm sure you will because I find you to be a very good communicator of what you think are the issues normally.

I touched on that in the post that followed that one, but to expand on it a bit. The 25 yard vs. three 8 yard passes, he has been more accurate shorter than longer and that can be said for most if not all quarterbacks. I'm not going to get into probabilities and such because I don't think they really fit into football, but I do think 3 or 4 8 yard throws have a better chance of moving the chains than one 25 yard pass.

Obviously that is a bit of a simplistic approach to it, but, I think Arians is a bit hard-headed at time. In some thread someone compared to Arians to Martz(can't remember who), but I can see that to a bit. Martz system is more wide-open, and the QB gets hit more, but without the extra RB/TE staying in to block, I guess it would be more wide open like Martz. I felt that was a fair assessment. I've been reading a book on Belichick, and it addressed the Rams/Patriots Super Bowl and how the Rams receivers were saying that they needed to start running the ball because the receivers/backs were being knocked off their routes, and Martz refused to do so and said "We are doing it my way" in not so polite language.

I guess it just boils down that I think he would complete more passes overall if the targets were shorter, even though he's still been more inaccurate on shorter passes than I expected him to be.

I guess another way to compare it would be to a basketball team choosing to go for more 2 pointers to cut into a lead as opposed to primarily attempting 3's. Risk/reward.

[Superman]

I wonder what Arians would say are the virtues to his offensive system.

[krunk]

Again, some great points. I think we share some of the same thoughts, except that I believe I would assign a little bit more blame to Arians and the predictability of his offense being a larger contributor to passes being broken up/defenses which would also be paired with the inaccurate throws.

If he were completing 75%+ on throws under 10 yards, then I believe the scheme would become the biggest problem, but he's been improving. His throws 1-10 is finally up over 60%, and throws BLOS are approaching it.

I guess one of my biggest problems with the scheme is that Arians seems to want the 25 yard play rather than three 8 yard plays. With the versatility of the tight ends and/or Brown when he is healthy, an adjustment to the approach would allow more targets out in routes. The longer routes do require more protection and that takes a target away on each play.

I hear what you are saying, but have we not increased the amt of times we are hitting Fleener and Allen each game? Did we not just see Luck hit Vic Ballard on a short crossing route that picked up a pretty good gain? I know I saw him hit Donnie Avery on some short and medium routes more than once in the Browns game. Reggie is included in that as well. I think Arians mixes the throws in there pretty well in most cases.

When Peyton was the quarterback, the offense was designed the same way in terms of what the first read was. Deep to short, and nobody every had a problem with it. I think Luck can function in both styles, but he has to be more accurate with his throws.

[krunk]

I touched on that in the post that followed that one, but to expand on it a bit. The 25 yard vs. three 8 yard passes, he has been more accurate shorter than longer and that can be said for most if not all quarterbacks. I'm not going to get into probabilities and such because I don't think they really fit into football, but I do think 3 or 4 8 yard throws have a better chance of moving the chains than one 25 yard pass.

Obviously that is a bit of a simplistic approach to it, but, I think Arians is a bit hard-headed at time. In some thread someone compared to Arians to Martz(can't remember who), but I can see that to a bit. Martz system is more wide-open, and the QB gets hit more, but without the extra RB/TE staying in to block, I guess it would be more wide open like Martz. I felt that was a fair assessment. I've been reading a book on Belichick, and it addressed the Rams/Patriots Super Bowl and how the Rams receivers were saying that they needed to start running the ball because the receivers/backs were being knocked off their routes, and Martz refused to do so and said "We are doing it my way" in not so polite language.

I guess it just boils down that I think he would complete more passes overall if the targets were shorter, even though he's still been more inaccurate on shorter passes than I expected him to be.

I guess another way to compare it would be to a basketball team choosing to go for more 2 pointers to cut into a lead as opposed to primarily attempting 3's. Risk/reward.

You seem to be a big numbers guy. How many balls are we throwing deep versus short passes on average? Have you kept up with that stat FJC? Just out of curiousity I'd like to know.

[FireJimCaldwell]

I hear what you are saying, but have we not increased the amt of times we are hitting Fleener and Allen each game? Did we not just see Luck hit Vic Ballard on a short crossing route that picked up a pretty good gain? I know I saw him hit Donnie Avery on some short and medium routes more than once in the Browns game. Reggie is included in that as well. I think Arians mixes the throws in there pretty well in most cases.

When Peyton was the quarterback, the offense was designed the same way in terms of what the first read was. Deep to short, and nobody every had a problem with it. I think Luck can function in both styles, but he has to be more accurate with his throws.

I'll see if I can come up with something comparing the first 3 games & last 3 games to see if there has been any shift in the % of the length of throws.

I know Manning had some deep routes/reads etc, but the flow of the two different offenses look entirely different. I guess the speed of Manning reads amplified everything and it was a lot quicker. Luck will improve in that part of his game over time as well.

[The Peytonator]

First down: Run to the left with 3 TE set. Stuffed at LOS.

Second down: 40 yard bomb to Avery. Incomplete.

Third down: Crappy screen that you can see from a mile away. Gain of 8.

Punt

Sums up half the drives we see out of Arians. It's not a very efficient offense. I am not a fan of Arians as an OC. I'd be fine with him as a QB coach, but that's about it.

[FireJimCaldwell]

You seem to be a big numbers guy. How many balls are we throwing deep versus short passes on average? Have you kept up with that stat FJC? Just out of curiousity I'd like to know.

I'm not sure if this fits what you are asking, but this is what I have handy. He only averages 5.5 throws over 21 yards per game, but I would like to see a break down of the length of each route at the point of the pass release(that's not going to happen, because it's not out there and I'n not going to chart all 250 passes), but it would be interesting to see on what options are actually out there from a cumulative point of view.

[FireJimCaldwell]

First down: Run to the left with 3 TE set. Stuffed at LOS.

Second down: 40 yard bomb to Avery. Incomplete.

Third down: Crappy screen that you can see from a mile away. Gain of 8.

Punt

Sums up half the drives we see out of Arians. It's not a very efficient offense. I am not a fan of Arians as an OC. I'd be fine with him as a QB coach, but that's about it.

This reminded me of something I saw on Arians from his Steelers days.

His assumed play call chart.

[FireJimCaldwell]

I'll see if I can come up with something comparing the first 3 games & last 3 games to see if there has been any shift in the % of the length of throws.

I know Manning had some deep routes/reads etc, but the flow of the two different offenses look entirely different. I guess the speed of Manning reads amplified everything and it was a lot quicker. Luck will improve in that part of his game over time as well.

I do not have a way to split the data between 1st 3 & 2nd 3 to see if there has been an obvious shift.

[Coltsagent]

Are you guys crazy? What 12+ years of fast pace, downfield, long ball, score as many points as you can and watch our D pin its ears back on the other QB is no longer what you want? You want a ball control, running the rock, ugly wins team?

You cant expect a rookie to master the same amount of information that PM acquired after years of experience. But I for one want our old offense philosophy back.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Are you guys crazy? What 12+ years of fast pace, downfield, long ball, score as many points as you can and watch our D pin its ears back on the other QB is no longer what you want? You want a ball control, running the rock, ugly wins team?

You cant expect a rookie to master the same amount of information that PM acquired after years of experience. But I for one want our old offense philosophy back.

I'm not sure what long ball offense you are referring to with Manning, that was never a large part of his game.

Then Bruce Arians isn't the man you want.

[krunk]

I'm not sure if this fits what you are asking, but this is what I have handy. He only averages 5.5 throws over 21 yards per game, but I would like to see a break down of the length of each route at the point of the pass release(that's not going to happen, because it's not out there and I'n not going to chart all 250 passes), but it would be interesting to see on what options are actually out there from a cumulative point of view.

Here are my thoughts. It doesn't appear that we are going gung ho with the deep throws at only 5.5 a game. If you are looking for the length of each route at the point of the ball release, then you must be trying to see what routes everyone else is running. One of the things you said had to do with wanting more diverse targets. We are normally running 3 and 4 WR sets, so I know there would have to be at least 2 players on every pass play running short and intermediate routes to get the type of passes you are looking for.

On most teams plays are not designed to send several people deep. Usually it's going to be 1 guy and sometimes 2. The rest of the throws would have to be short or medium I think. If that deep read is not open then you progress down to the shorter ones. Arians seems to always have some small crossing routes that Luck can check to on most passing plays that I've seen. He is just sailing and under throwing them.

[krunk]

Are you guys crazy? What 12+ years of fast pace, downfield, long ball, score as many points as you can and watch our D pin its ears back on the other QB is no longer what you want? You want a ball control, running the rock, ugly wins team?

You cant expect a rookie to master the same amount of information that PM acquired after years of experience. But I for one want our old offense philosophy back.

I like the deep to short style. People just think our OL does not allow for that, and I don't think that has been the issue. Now if we were talking about the running game I do think the OL has been the issue.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Here are my thoughts. It doesn't appear that we are going gung ho with the deep throws at only 5.5 a game. If you are looking for the length of each route at the point of the ball release, then you must be trying to see what routes everyone else is running. One of the things you said had to do with wanting more diverse targets. We are normally running 3 and 4 WR sets, so I know there would have to be at least 2 players on every pass play running short and intermediate routes to get the type of passes you are looking for.

On most teams plays are not designed to send several people deep. Usually it's going to be 1 guy and sometimes 2. The rest of the throws would have to be short or medium I think. If that deep read is not open then you progress down to the shorter ones. Arians seems to always have some small crossing routes that Luck can check to on most passing plays that I've seen. He is just sailing and under throwing them.

That's why I'd like to see a breakdown of the length of routes, even when they aren't thrown to. To try to form some form ratio of x routes over 20 vs. under 20 or what have you.

I just feel with shorter routes the OL would look better, and that should allow for the TE/RB that are being kept in times to filter out into a pattern to give him another option.

I'm just not sold on Arians.

[krunk]

That's why I'd like to see a breakdown of the length of routes, even when they aren't thrown to. To try to form some form ratio of x routes over 20 vs. under 20 or what have you.

I just feel with shorter routes the OL would look better, and that should allow for the TE/RB that are being kept in times to filter out into a pattern to give him another option.

I'm just not sold on Arians.

That's fine if you feel that way, but how can we be keeping extra backs and tight ends in to block if we are running 4 WR sets several times a game? If you are running 4 WR there is hardly anyone being left in to block. They are all being utilized in the passing game.

Even in 3 WR sets the tight end might block for a minute, but he eventually releases out for a pass, which basically makes it a 4 WR set.

[Coltsagent]

FJC...I will take the bait..I assume you have some numbers/info to back up the long ball "never a large part' of PM game. So lets hear it. It should be interesting.

[HtownColt]

you have to take your shots in this day and age being how frequently pass interference, illegal contact, and defensive holding is called these days. Hidden yardage is always overlooked when it comes to the stats

[The Peytonator]

Are you guys crazy? What 12+ years of fast pace, downfield, long ball, score as many points as you can and watch our D pin its ears back on the other QB is no longer what you want? You want a ball control, running the rock, ugly wins team?

You cant expect a rookie to master the same amount of information that PM acquired after years of experience. But I for one want our old offense philosophy back.

Can't speak for everyone else, but I would absolutely love the old, Tom Moore style of playcalling.....just maybe a little bit less prectability. Nobody wants a ball control, running the rock, ugly wins team. We want an offense that uses the middle of the field. Nothing wrong with sending a TE down the seam, having Hilton run a mid in route, throwing to Reggie on a timing comeback route, etc. The way we run the ball is so predictable it's no wonder they stuff it more often than not. There's a reason Luck's completion percentage is so bad......he's being asked to throw deep half the time with a very middle of the road pass protecting line. If it's not a deep throw, it's a crappy screen.

There's a reason he was fired from Pittsburgh. Guess what, with Todd Haley's playcalling, Ben is 5th in QB rating this year. He's ahead of Brady. I prefer an efficient offense to a boom or bust offense.