Arians on the Grand Design of the Offense....

[YOUR GM]

The Pagano/Arians vision seems to be this:

- Physical, attacking defense

- Run the ball

- Downfield passing.

That's old school football. Prior to the proliferation of the West Coast style and bend-but-don't beak defenses, this is how everyone played. Will it work in 2012? In my opinion, such a passing philosophy will only work with a dominant defense and top notch running game. With an average defense and average running game, your boom or bust, inconsistent passing game won't be able to match drives with move-the-chains offenses. Also, I'm not sure how instructive it is to look at Pittsburgh for a track record. Many of their best and biggest plays came out of Roethlisberger improvising, not the offense itself.

This is all very true. Except, i'd say Arians' vision is less focused on the run than Pagano's. Arians uses the run as if it's an inconvenient due process or chore that has to be done in order to keep the appearance of 'balance.' No creativity whatsoever. If he spent half the effort scheming run plays as he does designing routes and formations, he might actually make a decent coordinator.

[DallasClarkrules]

I'm no QB expert, but what I've noticed on several on the bad misses by Luck is that they've happened when he hasn't stepped into his throw. The throw to Fleener in the redzone was just poor fundamentals, and on some of the longer balls he's getting hit as he throws.

I think it's very easy for us to try and use Manning as a frame of reference, but really he's far better than nearly every QB in the league. He could be accurate while getting hit, while off balance, but he's a 14 year vet who also happens to be the greatest QB the NFL has ever seen.

I do agree that we can't be taking so many shots downfield - yes they can work, but only in moderation. Establish the run, and take what the defense gives you. That's something Manning does better than anyone. He loves the home run play, but if there's a 5 yard gain available, he'll take it. That's one thing I think we can take from Manning and try and implement into our offense.

With that said - Luck will miss throws, he will sail balls, he will complete less than 60% of his passes on the season... but he's a rookie, and being asked to make tough throws every game. He's been given the reigns over the whole offense, which I dont think can be said of most rookie QBs over the past few years. It's still an improvement over last year because we've already won more games, we're getting better every week and as of right now, we're in the playoff hunt! (I know it's early in the season, but we're nonetheless a competitive team

[BOTT]

well I suppose anything is possible, though personally I highly doubt Green had more to do with the offense than Billick did.

yeah i guess you're correct considering the offensive juggernaut the ravens were under billicks guidance.

[Mouthfire]

The Pagano/Arians vision seems to be this:

- Physical, attacking defense

- Run the ball

- Downfield passing.

That's old school football. Prior to the proliferation of the West Coast style and bend-but-don't beak defenses, this is how everyone played. Will it work in 2012? In my opinion, such a passing philosophy will only work with a dominant defense and top notch running game. With an average defense and average running game, your boom or bust, inconsistent passing game won't be able to match drives with move-the-chains offenses. Also, I'm not sure how instructive it is to look at Pittsburgh for a track record. Many of their best and biggest plays came out of Roethlisberger improvising, not the offense itself.

That's kind of funny, but (minus the downfield passing) I was under the impression that this was what Luck was running at Stanford... run the ball, run the ball some more, and play tough defense.

I'll ask, because honestly I don't know: was the Stanford offense really a WCO? Minus the downfield passing, it sounded like a pretty old-school NFL offense. The only reason I thought they didn't throw the ball deep was because they didn't have any good deep receivers.

And isn't the basis of the WCO using the short pass in-place of running the ball? I don't know. The Stanford offense didn't sound like a WCO to me, unless someone wants to correct me.

[FireJimCaldwell]

That's kind of funny, but (minus the downfield passing) I was under the impression that this was what Luck was running at Stanford... run the ball, run the ball some more, and play tough defense.

I'll ask, because honestly I don't know: was the Stanford offense really a WCO? Minus the downfield passing, it sounded like a pretty old-school NFL offense. The only reason I thought they didn't throw the ball deep was because they didn't have any good deep receivers.

And isn't the basis of the WCO using the short pass in-place of running the ball? I don't know. The Stanford offense didn't sound like a WCO to me, unless someone wants to correct me.

It wasn't pure 100% Bill Walsh WCO, but I don't think anyone is running that true to form any more. It was a hybrid/variation.

You have the coaches under Walsh that for the most part have made some changes here and there and added some aspects to it.

Gruden ran more bunch formations out of his version.

Andy Reid for the most part throws more than Walsh ever did. Reid with Vick has the QB running more than Walsh did with Montana(different abilities).

Shanahan/Kubiak, use the zone blocking scheme and have altered it that way.

Shanahan has also added the read option to it this year because he's trying to capitalize on his players abilities.

Walsh rarely if ever ran the shotgun, and everyone using a hybrid of his offense is using that today. If Walsh were alive today, I think he would be extremely proud at how much the offense has grown and evolved.

The Harbaugh/Stanford did/does have a higher concentration of a power running game, and a heavier reliance on tight ends than most versions of the WCO, but the foundation is still there. I haven't crunched the #'s, but I would say that Harbaugh is throwing to wr's in the NFL more than he did at Stanford and I doubt he's running the same heavy sets as often, but he does still have a concentration on the running game.

Walsh built most of the house, but other coaches have made some additions that still connect to the main part of the house. The coaches that run it, usually add their own twists to it.

[krunk]

You can't blame the team struggles on Ben. Last year he had a rating of 90, this year it's 98. You can argue team success all you want, but the QB's job is to move the ball, and he's doing it a lot better this year than he has in the past. There is a correlation between Arians getting fired, and Pittsburgh's offensive improvement.

You are comparing an end of the year rating to a rating after 7 games? How do you know his rating won't be less than that at the end of the year?

[krunk]

Did you also factor in Ben and his gimpy foot problem he had for a good amount of the year last year? The man could barely plant his foot to make a throw. Don't you think that effects his numbers as well?

There's more than Arians that factored into that.

[krunk]

Wow its so funny how everyone is dogging Arians for the way he has Luck playing, I didnt read most of these comments just to much bull for me. I most be one of the only ones that feel this way, but I think we should be happy to have Arians he is a proven OC and he knows how to bring a youg QB along we have seen it in the past. I do feel that its Luck and the Colts that will be rewarded for the way Arians has us playing, we might not see it this year but I'm more then sure we will see a big diff next year. But my thing is we are only in week 8 and everyone get so caught up in the whole RG3 vs Luck deal we forget that we were just 2-14 last year. The truth is the more Luck is exposed to the better he will develop into the kind of QB we need him to be. We should really let off of Arians Im sure he knows more about bringing a young QB along then any of us will ever know. Personally I think its better to throw a young QB out there then baby him trying to be more conservative and safe like the skins have been doing with RG3. The main factor to Lucks misleading stats isnt Arians or Luck its the fact that outside of Reggie everyone is a rookie and im sorry but Luck cant throw it and catch it he just doesnt have the help that most ever other QB has but that will come next years as well. Lets give these guys a chance to play a whole season before we start talking about replacements of our coaching staff. Remember 2-14 last year at least we can throw the ball this season.....

You just can't please some of these people! We move the ball every single game, throw it to several different receivers, the plays are there it's just Luck whiffs sometimes, we've even started to run the ball a bit more now that our line is more settled. Luck has been making progress every single game. We are 3-3 and these people are dogging Arians as if we haven't even won a game. It's kind of sad bro!

They are crying about all the passing we do, but they embraced it when Peyton did it. Huh? They talk about Arians and the running game, but you would have to be wearing broken glasses to not see the running game has not worked for most of the season due to the offensive line. As soon as they started looking like they would block, Arians ran the ball more. I even think we would have ran the ball more against the Jets if Brown would have played. I don't think his ego is as big as some are claiming.

I wonder if they wanted to run Tom Moore out of town in Peytons first year with a 3-13 record and 28 interceptions? People are speaking of Arians as if 3-13 is what our record is now. Give the man a chance for goodness sakes.

[krunk]

I agree with this post, out of the rest. The Colts' offense seems very susceptible to a pressure-heavy defense, like a 4-6 hybrid (Jets anyone?) I think Luck would do better in the WCO. If they haven't switched offensive styles (or if Luck hasn't majorly improved) by the time you guys play us, Luck might get destroyed.

He did better with that offense against Green Bay(a pressure heavy defense) than your boy Shaub did!

[southwest1]

Look, unlike my friend FJC I am not a statistical guru. Also, unlike BrentMC11, Lollygager8, and The Peytonator I am not an o-line or d-line expert for that matter. I'm a front office/locker room chemistry guy. I've always been in that corner and I always will be.

If I were to give an opinion, it would be this: I really like Justice and Castonzo on our o-line. I agree with Peytonator we need to utilize or manipulate the center of the field more. Also, we are throwing too much and we need to pound the rock more with 30-40 touches divided up between Brown and Ballard. Then again, I'm cut from the Bill Parcells and Joe Gibbs school of thought: Run the ball to set up the pass not vice versa and you must stop the run in order to have a legitimate shot at winning. Lastly, I don't want Luck shell shocked by an opponent's pass rush a la NFL QB David Carr. You have to protect your field general and not ruin him mentally by failing to create a line that he can trust. Arians is an ariel assault guy; I'm a ground game guy with a few well timed throws mixed in myself...Those are my anyway.

[Vance]

He did better with that offense against Green Bay(a pressure heavy defense) than your boy Shaub did!

Nice dodge, it's not like you could answer the question anyway, since you don't have one

[krunk]

Nice dodge, it's not like you could answer the question anyway, since you don't have one

Whatever bro!

[RGIII]

He did better with that offense against Green Bay(a pressure heavy defense) than your boy Shaub did!

That game was a great win for you guys... but I honestly don't know how you got away with it. The Packers came up just short execution-wise multiple times in that game. They could easily have had at least 2 or 3 additional interceptions and just plain missed on some big plays on offense where they had you beat.

[krunk]

That game was a great win for you guys... but I honestly don't know how you got away with it. The Packers came up just short execution-wise multiple times in that game. They could easily have had at least 2 or 3 additional interceptions and just plain missed on some big plays on offense where they had you beat.

Happens that way sometimes, but the W went to us! Donnie Avery had a long touchdown that he COULD HAVE put on the Packers too IF Luck wouldn't have overthrown it. IF we didn't drive down to the Packers 1 yard line and score 3 instead of 7 about 2 times. We had some ifs that didn't go our way as well.

I totally see your point though! Much respect

[southwest1]

That game was a great win for you guys... but I honestly don't know how you got away with it. The Packers came up just short execution-wise multiple times in that game. They could easily have had at least 2 or 3 additional interceptions and just plain missed on some big plays on offense where they had you beat.

Near as I can figure RGIII, it was the football gods giving our squad an unpredictable victory and something to hang our hat on for next year. We won't make the Playoffs, but we did beat the 2011 GB SB Champions in a game no one saw coming even Indianapolis.

[krunk]

Near as I can figure RGIII, it was the football gods giving our squad an unpredictable victory and something to hang our hat on for next year. We won't make the Playoffs, but we did beat the 2011 GB SB Champions in a game no one saw coming even Indianapolis.

Just as soon as I get to my first 1000 posts I look up at yours and see 3000 and I find out I have a lot more typing to do!

[Gavin]

Its a wonder I dont have Calluses yet with all my typing on these boards

[southwest1]

Just as soon as I get to my first 1000 posts I look up at yours and see 3000 and I find out I have a lot more typing to do!

No worries Krunk. TBH with you, a significant portion of those postings directly derive from posting You Tube related music videos in the Beyonce SB topic or "What are you listening to right now?" topic part I and part II.

In my previous life, I was a world famous percussionist and record producer. Congratulations on your 1000 posts though my friend. That's AWESOME!!! It's not a competition buddy; quality vs quantity. You always produce profound and insightful matter krunk. That is why I respect you. Not to mention your fairness in all your analysis too.

[southwest1]

Its a wonder I dont have Calluses yet with all my typing on these boards

I know what you mean Gavin. I'm not exactly a speed demon typist either so if I write a long response to a blogger or in an email it means something significant because I don't do it for everyone and everybody.

[BOTT]

That game was a great win for you guys... but I honestly don't know how you got away with it. The Packers came up just short execution-wise multiple times in that game. They could easily have had at least 2 or 3 additional interceptions and just plain missed on some big plays on offense where they had you beat.

you could say the same thing for most of the games in the nfl

[Jason_]

yeah i guess you're correct considering the offensive juggernaut the ravens were under billicks guidance.

Kinda difficult to build an offensive juggernaut when the majority of the team's salary cap is spent on defense and the most talented QB he ever had to work with was the incomparable Trent Dilfer.