Pagano ranked as best HC in AFCS

[Jason_]

7 hours ago, 21isSuperman said:

He hasn't been given much talent to work with, but he had a historically bad defense last year, with his own hand-picked DC.  Plus, if it were just one bad year, that's something.  But Indy hasn't had a good defense in any of Pagano's years.  The only time the defense was even semi-decent was 2014, and even that wasn't a spectacular year.  A good defensive coach would see how bad the middle of the defense has been and at least make some schematic changes, or come up with some good blitzes to compensate for a lack of a premier pass rusher.

 

Hmm..make schematic changes you say? You mean like ditching the 2gap hybrid and switching to a 1 gap defense when he got Anderson and parry, who were collectively better than Chapman and Hughes? 

 

Yes, last year was a historically bad defense with a hand picked DC. You casually left out how many games davis, Robinson, butler, geathers and adams missed. How exotic can you be with your blitzes when your secondary is primarily made up of Chris Milton, rashaan melvin, Darryl morris and a very green tj green etc? DBs were dropping like flies last year, Jackson and Morrison had to play far too much, cold and Mathis were barely shells of their former selves. Our best playmaker on defense was a toss up between Adams and Erik walden!

 

Oh and how many different starting OL combinations were there?

[crazycolt1]

18 minutes ago, J@son said:

 

Hmm..make schematic changes you say? You mean like ditching the 2gap hybrid and switching to a 1 gap defense when he got Anderson and parry, who were collectively better than Chapman and Hughes? 

 

Yes, last year was a historically bad defense with a hand picked DC. You casually left out how many games davis, Robinson, butler, geathers and adams missed. How exotic can you be with your blitzes when your secondary is primarily made up of Chris Milton, rashaan melvin, Darryl morris and a very green tj green etc? DBs were dropping like flies last year, Jackson and Morrison had to play far too much, cold and Mathis were barely shells of their former selves. Our best playmaker on defense was a toss up between Adams and Erik walden!

 

Oh and how many different starting OL combinations were there?

^^^^ Nice for someone to see and understand ^^^

[southwest1]

Calling our defense 'Saint-esque' did make me laugh briefly. I can't lie. Did Pags take too much blame for Grigson's inability to build a defense? Yes. I have to remind myself if I was patrolling the sidelines myself, I would struggle against NE, Pittsburgh, Denver, & Oakland too, but then again, Chuck knew what the expectations were when he signed his extension too. He's gotta win at least 1 playoff game to retain his job next yr.

 

Yes, I know people will say Luck's recovery from surgery is uncertain right now & we have new LBs & DBs were trying to integrate right now. Look, I'll admit that Pagano isn't all that bad record wise in our division, but if we fail to make the playoffs this season, I'm ready to release Chuck & promote Philbin in his spot. That's a huge transition for me since I still am not happy about how things ended in Miami under that leadership by Joe if you wanna call it that. 

 

I'm at the stage now where Pags better win a playoff game in 2017 just to show INDY fans that we can at least stay alive for a post season run when the weather gets worse. I wonder how Ballard views Pagano? A short term band aid or some one who will stick around for awhile? GMs like to consult with owners on coaches. My gut says Chuck will be gone after this yr. I don't hate the man. I just better see a leap forward. He's been here's since 2012 hired from the Ravens staff & his defensive prowess hasn't exactly dazzled me either. How much of a grace period does Pags get?   

[crazycolt1]

4 hours ago, southwest1 said:

Calling our defense 'Saint-esque' did make me laugh briefly. I can't lie. Did Pags take too much blame for Grigson's inability to build a defense? Yes. I have to remind myself if I was patrolling the sidelines myself, I would struggle against NE, Pittsburgh, Denver, & Oakland too, but then again, Chuck knew what the expectations were when he signed his extension too. He's gotta win at least 1 playoff game to retain his job next yr.

 

Yes, I know people will say Luck's recovery from surgery is uncertain right now & we have new LBs & DBs were trying to integrate right now. Look, I'll admit that Pagano isn't all that bad record wise in our division, but if we fail to make the playoffs this season, I'm ready to release Chuck & promote Philbin in his spot. That's a huge transition for me since I still am not happy about how things ended in Miami under that leadership by Joe if you wanna call it that. 

 

I'm at the stage now where Pags better win a playoff game in 2017 just to show INDY fans that we can at least stay alive for a post season run when the weather gets worse. I wonder how Ballard views Pagano? A short term band aid or some one who will stick around for awhile? GMs like to consult with owners on coaches. My gut says Chuck will be gone after this yr. I don't hate the man. I just better see a leap forward. He's been here's since 2012 hired from the Ravens staff & his defensive prowess hasn't exactly dazzled me either. How much of a grace period does Pags get?   

The reason why Pagano was not fired is exactly what J@son said in his comment. Irsay knew exactly why we were struggling. Just because we lose 8 games some want heads to roll without actually knowing exactly why things went south. Irsay is not stupid in realizing why things happen and what caused them in the first place.

I do agree that Pagano will be on a short leash but Irsay wasn't going to fire him for something that was out of his hands. We had a patch work defense at best and it wasn't because of bad coaching they couldn't stop anyone.

How much grace period does Pagano get?  All the time in the world as long as he coaches good and has the players that have the talent needed to win. He does not have to win a playoff game to determine if he keeps his job if Irsay sees an improvement and it calculates to more wins.

This I want it now and I don't care because if I don't get it now someone better lose their job is spoken like a true fan. (short for fanatic)            

[Dudley Smith]

This is more an indictment on the AFC South than anything else. I actually agree that Pagano is the best HC in the division, but that isn't saying too much. I think O'Brien is the only one you could make a case for being better, but quite honestly, QB or not, he has taken a very talented roster in Houston and has only managed to get blown out by 30 at home and then followed it up by beating a 3rd string QB in the playoffs. If the Colts defense was even average in either of the last two years he doesn't even make the playoffs -- and one of those years we didn't even really have Luck at all (I don't count the first few games in '15 where he was clearly playing injured). I think Pagano has clearly proven to be better in both the regular season and playoffs.

 

All that said, I think Pagano is fairly average as a HC. However, I am pulling for him to prove us all wrong and show he is better than that by making the playoffs this season and (hopefully) even winning a game or two once he is there.

 

 

[MacDee1975]

No head coach in the AFC South should sniff a spot any higher than middle of the pack on that list.  A decidedly mediocre group, for sure.

[King Colt]

O'Brien has won with out a QB. He is the best in the AFC South.

[21isSuperman]

10 hours ago, J@son said:

 

Hmm..make schematic changes you say? You mean like ditching the 2gap hybrid and switching to a 1 gap defense when he got Anderson and parry, who were collectively better than Chapman and Hughes? 

 

Yes, last year was a historically bad defense with a hand picked DC. You casually left out how many games davis, Robinson, butler, geathers and adams missed. How exotic can you be with your blitzes when your secondary is primarily made up of Chris Milton, rashaan melvin, Darryl morris and a very green tj green etc? DBs were dropping like flies last year, Jackson and Morrison had to play far too much, cold and Mathis were barely shells of their former selves. Our best playmaker on defense was a toss up between Adams and Erik walden!

 

Oh and how many different starting OL combinations were there?

Poor adjustments, slow starts, bad fundamentals.  I understand the injury issues.  All I'm saying is if you're dinging O'Brien for bad QB play, you should also ding Pagano for bad defensive play.

[MacDee1975]

8 hours ago, King Colt said:

O'Brien has won with out a QB. He is the best in the AFC South.

 

Chuck Pagano has made it to a AFC Title game without a defense, and with an incompetent hack who ended up being fired because he sucked at his job determining who his personnel was going to be for his entire coaching career.

 

O'Brien wins at barely over a .500 clip, mainly due to the side of the ball that he has no clue whatsoever about keeping his pathetic offenses in close games, where they end up eeking out 1 score victories.

 

Advantage - Pagano

[Superman]

On 6/22/2017 at 11:17 AM, 21isSuperman said:

I'd say O'Brien.  He's been given absolute garbage at the most important position and has still managed to lead his team to the playoffs and his staff has developed a really strong defense.  

 

I'm not really arguing that Pagano is better, but O'Brien is a QB guy, and a former OC. He's had his own guys from New England brought in, and both of them played horribly for him in Houston. Brock Osweiler was pretty good in Denver in a small sample size, and he went to Houston and produced the worst statistical season of any QB in the league last season. The best QB they've had is Ryan Fitzpatrick, who played better once he left. They haven't had a cumulative 4,000 yard passing season since O'Brien has been there, and they haven't come close to having a single 4,000 yard passer. Their best receiver was completely marginalized by their offense last season, going from a monster to a nightmare. 

 

At this point, he's looking like Brian Billick -- an offensive minded head coach being carried entirely by his defense (led by a defensive legend, in this case, so it's hard to give O'Brien much credit for that side of the ball) because he can't for the life of him get the offense on track. But Billick had a SB to boost his cred and buy him some time. 

 

O'Brien has to make it happen with Watson and/or Savage this season, otherwise his whole platform as an offensive coach is completely undermined over an extended period of time. Unless the Texans bomb this year, he's probably safe, but I don't see a strong case for him being anything more than average/mediocre himself. If I were ranking by tiers, I see him on the same tier as Pagano, although we can discuss their rank within that tier, if it matters.

[21isSuperman]

43 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I'm not really arguing that Pagano is better, but O'Brien is a QB guy, and a former OC. He's had his own guys from New England brought in, and both of them played horribly for him in Houston. Brock Osweiler was pretty good in Denver in a small sample size, and he went to Houston and produced the worst statistical season of any QB in the league last season. The best QB they've had is Ryan Fitzpatrick, who played better once he left. They haven't had a cumulative 4,000 yard passing season since O'Brien has been there, and they haven't come close to having a single 4,000 yard passer. Their best receiver was completely marginalized by their offense last season, going from a monster to a nightmare. 

 

At this point, he's looking like Brian Billick -- an offensive minded head coach being carried entirely by his defense (led by a defensive legend, in this case, so it's hard to give O'Brien much credit for that side of the ball) because he can't for the life of him get the offense on track. But Billick had a SB to boost his cred and buy him some time. 

 

O'Brien has to make it happen with Watson and/or Savage this season, otherwise his whole platform as an offensive coach is completely undermined over an extended period of time. Unless the Texans bomb this year, he's probably safe, but I don't see a strong case for him being anything more than average/mediocre himself. If I were ranking by tiers, I see him on the same tier as Pagano, although we can discuss their rank within that tier, if it matters.

I agree fully with everything you said.  I think Watson/Savage are his last chance.  If he can't make it work with them, I think his time in Houston will be very limited.  Let's also not forget how he handled the Hoyer/Mallet situation.  I'm not saying O'Brien is a top 5 coach; he's made his mistakes.  It just seemed odd to me that Elliot Harrison would criticize O'Brien for how his offense/QBs have performed, but not criticize Pagano for how his defenses have performed.  You can talk about injuries and personnel and what talent the GM has brought in.  At the end of the day, O'Brien's quarterbacks and Pagano's defenses haven't been anywhere near what they should be, given the background they both have.

 

Since 2014, O'Brien's offenses have ranked 14th, 21st, and 28th in points per game.  In that same time, Pagano's defenses have ranked 19th, 25th, and 22nd in points given up per game.  I'm not saying O'Brien is significantly better than Pagano, but if I had to pick one guy, I'd go with O'Brien.

 

If you really want to get into the minute details, you could consider the hires they've made to their staff to complement their own backgrounds.  O'Brien's defensive coordinators have been pretty good, looking at how their defense has ranked.  But Pagano's offensive coordinators have left a lot to be desired.  You could then look at positional coaches and whatnot and get very analytical.  At the end of the day, if I had to pick one person for me, I'd take O'Brien over Pagano.

[Jason_]

3 hours ago, 21isSuperman said:

Poor adjustments, slow starts, bad fundamentals.  I understand the injury issues.  All I'm saying is if you're dinging O'Brien for bad QB play, you should also ding Pagano for bad defensive play.

 

and all I'm saying is if you're excusing O'Brien for bad QB play due to the level of talent he's been given at the position, then the same would apply to Pagano for the level of talent that he's been given on defense.  

 

Sorry, but you're trying to have your cake and eat it too

 

BTW...poor adjustments?  how many 4th quarter comebacks have there been?  that's not ALL on Luck regardless of what some would like to believe

 

slow starts?  you saw what I said about the OL right?  that's also a lot more on Chud than Pags imo...Chud is the playcaller and I doubt Pagano is that much of a micro-manager.  I have no doubt he gives his input in gameplanning and probably gives run/pass suggestions when necessary but overall, Chud is the OC and playcaller.  And that's why lesser experienced defensive minded HC's tend to hire veteran OCs or former HCs instead of college coaches or positional coaches.  Same for lesser experienced offensive minded HCs hiring veteran/former HC DCs.

 

Now if your point is that Pagano's trust in Chud is misplaced then I can get behind that until Chud proves me wrong...which hopefully he will this year.

 

as for the bad fundamentals...yeah that's definitely shown at times..but keep in mind that the past couple of years they've had to sign guys off the streets at various positions..especially in the secondary.  those guys were likely on the streets and not another team's roster in large part due to poor fundamentals.

[21isSuperman]

18 minutes ago, J@son said:

 

and all I'm saying is if you're excusing O'Brien for bad QB play due to the level of talent he's been given at the position, then the same would apply to Pagano for the level of talent that he's been given on defense.  

 

Sorry, but you're trying to have your cake and eat it too

 

BTW...poor adjustments?  how many 4th quarter comebacks have there been?  that's not ALL on Luck regardless of what some would like to believe

 

slow starts?  you saw what I said about the OL right?  that's also a lot more on Chud than Pags imo...Chud is the playcaller and I doubt Pagano is that much of a micro-manager.  I have no doubt he gives his input in gameplanning and probably gives run/pass suggestions when necessary but overall, Chud is the OC and playcaller.  And that's why lesser experienced defensive minded HC's tend to hire veteran OCs or former HCs instead of college coaches or positional coaches.  Same for lesser experienced offensive minded HCs hiring veteran/former HC DCs.

 

Now if your point is that Pagano's trust in Chud is misplaced then I can get behind that until Chud proves me wrong...which hopefully he will this year.

 

as for the bad fundamentals...yeah that's definitely shown at times..but keep in mind that the past couple of years they've had to sign guys off the streets at various positions..especially in the secondary.  those guys were likely on the streets and not another team's roster in large part due to poor fundamentals.

I understand that.  Like I said in my response to Superman, I think you could use their choice of coordinators and staff as evidence for or against them.  At the end of the day, I think O'Brien has done slightly better than Pagano

[Superman]

53 minutes ago, J@son said:

slow starts?  you saw what I said about the OL right?  that's also a lot more on Chud than Pags imo...Chud is the playcaller and I doubt Pagano is that much of a micro-manager.  I have no doubt he gives his input in gameplanning and probably gives run/pass suggestions when necessary but overall, Chud is the OC and playcaller.  And that's why lesser experienced defensive minded HC's tend to hire veteran OCs or former HCs instead of college coaches or positional coaches.  Same for lesser experienced offensive minded HCs hiring veteran/former HC DCs.

 

Now if your point is that Pagano's trust in Chud is misplaced then I can get behind that until Chud proves me wrong...which hopefully he will this year.

 

At this point, I hold the offense against Pagano because, IMO, this is his preferred offense. The Pep hire was likely influenced (if not forced) by Grigson. Arians and Chud -- the Coryell guys -- belong to Pagano. I don't think he micromanages the offense at all, but if his vision is the vertical offense and power running game, then he has to take ownership for the faults in the offense.

[Jason_]

20 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

At this point, I hold the offense against Pagano because, IMO, this is his preferred offense. The Pep hire was likely influenced (if not forced) by Grigson. Arians and Chud -- the Coryell guys -- belong to Pagano. I don't think he micromanages the offense at all, but if his vision is the vertical offense and power running game, then he has to take ownership for the faults in the offense.

 

I get that but at the same time I dont remember the slow starts when arians was here so, while I would definitely prefer a more WC style offense, I dont think the scheme is inherently flawed. I know youre not saying it is.  I'm saying that arians was probably just a superior situational playcaller who had a better idea of how to get luck and the offense as a whole into a rhythm. 

 

This will be the offense's 2nd full year in chuds offense so we'll see how things go.  

 

I do agree though...the choices of OC are my biggest complaints with pagano at this point.

[GwinnettColt]

I think this is a make-or-break year for Chuck.

 

I like the fact that the Colts were 8-8 the last two seasons without Andrew Luck in the season before last and last season when Andrew played injured.  

 

I'm reserving judgment to see what happens this year with new personnel.  

[Superman]

44 minutes ago, J@son said:

I dont think the scheme is inherently flawed. I know youre not saying it is.

 

No, I think it's inherently flawed. Even if you have a great passer behind a great OL with great receivers, you're throwing a high rate of low percentage passes and ignoring high percentage opportunities. The degree of difficulty is just way greater than it needs to be, especially when you see the best and most efficient QBs in the league feasting on easy throws because defenses are still afraid of getting beat deep.

 

I've said since 2012, I don't need a WCO, but in this offense, your QB is always going to get pressured, hit and sacked more than necessary, and you're almost always going to top out in the low 60% range for completions. Yeah, you can make up for it with big plays, but coordinators who have perfected that balance between long developing plays and taking the easy stuff have ventured away from the aggressive Coryell concepts.

 

I do agree that Arians is a better play caller than Chud, so far, but I had the same complaints when Arians was here.

[MacDee1975]

5 hours ago, Superman said:

 

I'm not really arguing that Pagano is better, but O'Brien is a QB guy, and a former OC. He's had his own guys from New England brought in, and both of them played horribly for him in Houston. Brock Osweiler was pretty good in Denver in a small sample size, and he went to Houston and produced the worst statistical season of any QB in the league last season. The best QB they've had is Ryan Fitzpatrick, who played better once he left. They haven't had a cumulative 4,000 yard passing season since O'Brien has been there, and they haven't come close to having a single 4,000 yard passer. Their best receiver was completely marginalized by their offense last season, going from a monster to a nightmare. 

 

At this point, he's looking like Brian Billick -- an offensive minded head coach being carried entirely by his defense (led by a defensive legend, in this case, so it's hard to give O'Brien much credit for that side of the ball) because he can't for the life of him get the offense on track. But Billick had a SB to boost his cred and buy him some time. 

 

O'Brien has to make it happen with Watson and/or Savage this season, otherwise his whole platform as an offensive coach is completely undermined over an extended period of time. Unless the Texans bomb this year, he's probably safe, but I don't see a strong case for him being anything more than average/mediocre himself. If I were ranking by tiers, I see him on the same tier as Pagano, although we can discuss their rank within that tier, if it matters.

 

This is perfectly said.

[southwest1]

12 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

How much grace period does Pagano get?  All the time in the world as long as he coaches good and has the players that have the talent needed to win. He does not have to win a playoff game to determine if he keeps his job if Irsay sees an improvement and it calculates to more wins.

This I want it now and I don't care because if I don't get it now someone better lose their job is spoken like a true fan. (short for fanatic)

With all due respect CC1, 

 

It's not a wise move on your part to tell me & other fans that we're "fanatics" & not true fans of the Colts simply because we expect Chuck to win a playoff game. He's not a high school coach. He's running an NFL program & there are only 32 of them in our professional league. With lucrative salaries, come high expectations. Every NFL head coach has new talent, young talent, & a mixture of veterans that they must integrate, flow, & get in sync by September or early October. 

 

I seriously think you are Pagano's agent since you continue to defend him at every turn so darn much. 

[crazycolt1]

12 minutes ago, southwest1 said:

With all due respect CC1, 

 

It's not a wise move on your part to tell me & other fans that we're "fanatics" & not true fans of the Colts simply because we expect Chuck to win a playoff game. He's not a high school coach. He's running an NFL program & there are only 32 of them in our professional league. With lucrative salaries, come high expectations. Every NFL head coach has new talent, young talent, & a mixture of veterans that they must integrate, flow, & get in sync by September or early October. 

 

I seriously think you are Pagano's agent since you continue to defend him at every turn so darn much. 

Where did I say anyone wasn't a true fan? Why do you feel the need to add your own twist and meaning to what I said?   Exactly what do you think "fan" means?  It is slang for fanatic.

Now you want to insult me by calling me Pagano's agent?

There is a long list of why Pagano has had a bad two years and almost all of them were out of his hands. I am sorry if you don't see them. That is exactly where the fanatic comes to play.

[southwest1]

43 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Where did I say anyone wasn't a true fan? Why do you feel the need to add your own twist and meaning to what I said?   Exactly what do you think "fan" means?  It is slang for fanatic.

Now you want to insult me by calling me Pagano's agent?

There is a long list of why Pagano has had a bad two years and almost all of them were out of his hands. I am sorry if you don't see them. That is exactly where the fanatic comes to play.

"if I don't get it now someone better lose their job is spoken like a true fan. (short for fanatic)

 

I took this directly from your previous post CC1. The inference is if we fans don't blindly give allegiance to whoever the current INDY coach is that we can't consider ourselves true blue fans. 

 

Look, I get that you're loyal to Pagano almost devoted to him as his publicist I think. Now that is your right to support Pags overzealously in my view. However, just because I & others like Jared may not see Chuck as a future Championship coach that doesn't make the rest of us shortsighted for being reluctant to give him more than this yr to confirm whether Chuck is worthy of being in our longterm plans for the future. 

 

"There is a long list of why Pagano has had a bad two years and almost all of them were out of his hands. I am sorry if you don't see them." 

 

Oh, give me a break with that high & mighty rhetoric. And the Pagano apologists continue. Well, it's true our defense was lackluster. We had a pretty prolific offense & Philbin was improving our line for Gore & Turbin. Also, wasn't Chuck hired from the defensive juggernaut the Ravens? And yet, Chuck hasn't brought the same know how here. Ray Lewis wasn't in his prime when Pagano was DC in Baltimore either BTW. 

 

The implication in your quote is that only you see the hand Pags was dealt under Grigson & that the rest of us are being naive. We're not. I've been on this forum since 2012. I'm well aware of how the Pagano era has unfolded as are you CC1. 

[crazycolt1]

Once gain you add your own meaning and twist to what I said.

I made a comment to you earlier about you over thinking stuff and this is an example of that. You seem to think there is some kind of hidden meaning like you are analyzing everything said.

If you are aware of the Pagano era has unfolded then why so critical?

IMO Irsay is no * and he is also well aware of why things went south the last two seasons. He didn't fire Pagano because he is well aware of those reasons.

It's not a point I support Pagano because I am overzealous, it's because I look at facts and the facts speak for themselves. Pagano has yet to have a losing season and you can add all the excuses or reasons why the facts don't add up but yet there are what they are. Nothing you or anyone else can say that changes that.

Your comment about wanting someone fired if this or that don't happen regardless of the reasons is a sign of pure fanatic mindset at it's strongest.

[Lawrence Owen]

Pagano is a 'players' coach.,  Always has been, always will be.  That is his biggest asset, getting his players to play their hearts out.  Yes, he's made the occasional bone headed calls, like the fake punt where a key player was not in that practice, and didn't know NOT to snap the ball.  But that is human,...everyone, EVERYONE makes those occasionally. 

On 6/22/2017 at 6:53 PM, 21isSuperman said:

He hasn't been given much talent to work with, but he had a historically bad defense last year, with his own hand-picked DC.  Plus, if it were just one bad year, that's something.  But Indy hasn't had a good defense in any of Pagano's years.  The only time the defense was even semi-decent was 2014, and even that wasn't a spectacular year.  A good defensive coach would see how bad the middle of the defense has been and at least make some schematic changes, or come up with some good blitzes to compensate for a lack of a premier pass rusher.

 You ever think maybe he had compensated for the lack of talent on the defense, and that it was so anemic that nothing could make it any better?  I remember seeing a lot of blitzing last year, but our guys were just too slow/old to get there.  And our secondary was hurt..i mean like every single one of them...lol  hard to stop a passing game when 2/3 of your DB's are either on the sideline, on the field nursing ankle/knee issues, or so bad they didn't even make the trip to the game.  Injuries/age were our defenses biggest issues last year.  CB fixed the age thing, but have the taken steps to make guys less prone to injuries?  BC explained they were going to have a more physical preseason this year.  "to get their bodies prepared for the beating of the season".  So we'll see if this helps.

 

IMO Pags, isn't a bad coach.  He's not top 10...but only 10 people in the NFL are.....

 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

6 hours ago, Superman said:

 

No, I think it's inherently flawed. Even if you have a great passer behind a great OL with great receivers, you're throwing a high rate of low percentage passes and ignoring high percentage opportunities. The degree of difficulty is just way greater than it needs to be, especially when you see the best and most efficient QBs in the league feasting on easy throws because defenses are still afraid of getting beat deep.

 

I've said since 2012, I don't need a WCO, but in this offense, your QB is always going to get pressured, hit and sacked more than necessary, and you're almost always going to top out in the low 60% range for completions. Yeah, you can make up for it with big plays, but coordinators who have perfected that balance between long developing plays and taking the easy stuff have ventured away from the aggressive Coryell concepts.

 

I do agree that Arians is a better play caller than Chud, so far, but I had the same complaints when Arians was here.

 

This so much! Hopefully Ballard see the same during the year and do something about. 

 

I do have high hopes that TE Doyle and a good WR group beyond deep threat Hilton will "force" Chud to use a ton more of the short passing game. 

 

Sometimes I wonder how good this offense would be under BB. Extremely good, I think. BB understands how to adapt and game plan based on the strength of his players and weakness of his opponent. Is it really that difficult? 

[crazycolt1]

20 minutes ago, Mr. Irrelevant said:

 

This so much! Hopefully Ballard see the same during the year and do something about. 

 

I do have high hopes that TE Doyle and a good WR group beyond deep threat Hilton will "force" Chud to use a ton more of the short passing game. 

 

Sometimes I wonder how good this offense would be under BB. Extremely good, I think. BB understands how to adapt and game plan based on the strength of his players and weakness of his opponent. Is it really that difficult? 

Even BB couldn't have his offense good enough to make up for the lack of defense that we had last season.

Injuries and lack of depth added to the fact we had to use players out of position didn't help. We also were forced to use a couple of rookies that were not ready in a couple of positions too.

Under those circumstances we were actually lucky to win 8 games especially with an injured Luck.

[Yoshinator]

Pagano being the best coach in the AFC South is like 10 year olds arguing they are the best Pokemon player in their age division. They can beat the other kiddies, but fall vs the big boys. Congrats Pagano, you are truly mediocre!  

[Dark Superman]

Pagano is one of the worst coaches in the league, period.

Luck is the only reason this guy is still employed here.

He's gone after this season and I couldn't be any more excited.

[coltsfeva]

2 hours ago, LuckyHooker24 said:

Pagano is one of the worst coaches in the league, period.

Luck is the only reason this guy is still employed here.

He's gone after this season and I couldn't be any more excited.

So, if the Colts do well this year (make it to the Divisional round or better), would you consider changing your assessment of Pagano? Let me ask another way: what would it take to change your mind? Do you think coaches have the ability to grow and change? What if, for instance, the Colts start strong in their games this year and play well every game? How much blame goes to Pagano for level of talent, poor execution, mental mistakes and injuries? And how long do you think it will take for a new regime to turn things around? Let's see what happens this year, maybe he's as bad as you say, maybe not. To me, the jury is still out.

[Yoshinator]

21 minutes ago, coltsfeva said:

So, if the Colts do well this year (make it to the Divisional round or better), would you consider changing your assessment of Pagano? Let me ask another way: what would it take to change your mind? Do you think coaches have the ability to grow and change? What if, for instance, the Colts start strong in their games this year and play well every game? How much blame goes to Pagano for level of talent, poor execution, mental mistakes and injuries? And how long do you think it will take for a new regime to turn things around? Let's see what happens this year, maybe he's as bad as you say, maybe not. To me, the jury is still out.

Can't answer for LuckyHooker, but for me to change my mind about Pagano, we'd have to completely drop the slow starts (except for the occasional one against strong defenses), start destroying weak teams like the Saints offense, be competitive against every playoff team and beat at least half of them, and defeat either the Pats, Steelers, or Raiders in the playoffs (if we make the playoffs, a match vs one of them would happen). If Pagano makes the playoffs and gets destroyed by one those 3, that's not good enough. He has to compete with those 3, and there's no excuse why we can't at least beat the Steelers and Raiders by now, and go toe to toe with NE. If Pagano isn't capable of that, he should be gone.

[crazycolt1]

11 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

Can't answer for LuckyHooker, but for me to change my mind about Pagano, we'd have to completely drop the slow starts (except for the occasional one against strong defenses), start destroying weak teams like the Saints offense, be competitive against every playoff team and beat at least half of them, and defeat either the Pats, Steelers, or Raiders in the playoffs (if we make the playoffs, a match vs one of them would happen). If Pagano makes the playoffs and gets destroyed by one those 3, that's not good enough. He has to compete with those 3, and there's no excuse why we can't at least beat the Steelers and Raiders by now, and go toe to toe with NE. If Pagano isn't capable of that, he should be gone.

So does that mean 10 or 12 other head coaches needs to lose their jobs in your opinion?

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Just now, crazycolt1 said:

So does that mean 10 or 12 other head coaches needs to lose their jobs in your opinion?

Have they had Andrew Luck for 6 years? About 8 coaches get fired a year, so you're pretty close, and they have a lot less to work with than Pagano. If he's not capable of beating the top AFC playoff teams, he shouldn't be here. He struggles to score more than a FG in the first quarter.

[crazycolt1]

3 hours ago, LuckyHooker24 said:

Pagano is one of the worst coaches in the league, period.

Luck is the only reason this guy is still employed here.

He's gone after this season and I couldn't be any more excited.

So with that mindset Luck was only good for 3 more wins when we went 8-8 when he was on the sidelines with 5 different QBs?

There is no way you can say Pagano will be fired because none of us know including you.

[crazycolt1]

9 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

Have they had Andrew Luck for 6 years? About 8 coaches get fired a year, so you're pretty close, and they have a lot less to work with than Pagano. If he's not capable of beating the top AFC playoff teams, he shouldn't be here. He struggles to score more than a FG in the first quarter.

A lot less work? Really? Most of them have some sort of defense and running game. That is something Pagano has never had here. Maybe things will be different this season, who knows at this point.

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Just now, crazycolt1 said:

A lot less work? Really? Most of them have some sort of defense and running game. That is something Pagano has never had here. Maybe things will be different this season who knows at this point.

We had Frank Gore, so it was a stable running game. They just didn't use him correctly in the pass game most of the time. The defense was bad, I'll admit that, but that's why you have to use them to their strengths like Belichick does. Pagano was using them almost randomly and everything was out of place. If they don't have the talent, you build the playbook around the talent they have and it didn't happen. Same thing happened with Dorsett. Also, the offense was tremendously slow to start, and that was our strength. So you can't say it was just the defense. Even our strong unit was being used poorly. We were having double digit deficits vs the Jags and Titans for crying out loud and got swept by the Texans. That should NEVER happen. No matter if it's the offense or defense, Pagano has done a poor job with the team.

[crazycolt1]

6 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

We had Frank Gore, so it was a stable running game. They just didn't use him correctly in the pass game most of the time. The defense was bad, I'll admit that, but that's why you have to use them to their strengths like Belichick does. Pagano was using them almost randomly and everything was out of place. If they don't have the talent, you build the playbook around the talent they have and it didn't happen. Same thing happened with Dorsett. Also, the offense was tremendously slow to start, and that was our strength. So you can't say it was just the defense. Even our strong unit was being used poorly. We were having double digit deficits vs the Jags and Titans for crying out loud and got swept by the Texans. That should NEVER happen. No matter if it's the offense or defense, Pagano has done a poor job with the team.

Funny you would bring up Belichick. Pagano has a better record than Belichick did his first five years.

There is no way I am saying Pagano is as good as Belichick but his win lose record does say he is not as bad as some think.

You mention our strong unit? How many OCs have we had since Luck has been here?  Our running game has been at the bottom of the league because we have had like 50 different starting O-lines in five years. Pagano was not in control of either of these things.

While I do agree that Pagano is more than likely on thin ice Irsay is not stupid. He made the choice to fire Grigson and keep Pagano for exactly those reasons. If improvement is not shown Pagano will lose his job. But I don't think his win-lose record and getting wins in the playoffs will be the deciding factor if he does lose his job.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Funny you would bring up Belichick. Pagano has a better record than Belichick did his first five years.

There is no way I am saying Pagano is as good as Belichick but his win lose record does say he is not as bad as some think.

You mention our strong unit? How many OCs have we had since Luck has been here?  Our running game has been at the bottom of the league because we have had like 50 different starting O-lines in five years. Pagano was not in control of either of these things.

While I do agree that Pagano is more than likely on thin ice Irsay is not stupid. He made the choice to fire Grigson and keep Pagano for exactly those reasons. If improvement is not shown Pagano will lose his job. But I don't think his win-lose record and getting wins in the playoffs will be the deciding factor if he does lose his job.

 

 

That's irrelevant considering what Belichick has accomplished. I don't expect Pagano to be that good, but I expect adjustments when thing are going wrong, and we see the same slow starts every week, so there's obviously no adjustments. The O-Line has been bad until recently, but that doesn't explain why we only seem to score most of our points in the 2nd half. That seems to be starting off with the run, run, pass strategy, or the bomb it early to try and put up quick points, then punting it off and quickly falling behind vs top opponents, or just not scoring vs seemingly weak ones. The main problem is the playbook, which both Pagano and Chud should be accountable for. It's again not adjusting and using players towards their strengths. What needs to be fixed is the slow starts. Hopefully that gets fixed with the better talent we have this year, and God forbid, Luck being healthy. Of course, with injuries, it can all fall apart as well.

[crazycolt1]

12 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

That's irrelevant considering what Belichick has accomplished. I don't expect Pagano to be that good, but I expect adjustments when thing are going wrong, and we see the same slow starts every week, so there's obviously no adjustments. The O-Line has been bad until recently, but that doesn't explain why we only seem to score most of our points in the 2nd half. That seems to be starting off with the run, run, pass strategy, or the bomb it early to try and put up quick points, then punting it off and quickly falling behind vs top opponents, or just not scoring vs seemingly weak ones. The main problem is the playbook, which both Pagano and Chud should be accountable for. It's again not adjusting and using players towards their strengths. What needs to be fixed is the slow starts. Hopefully that gets fixed with the better talent we have this year, and God forbid, Luck being healthy. Of course, with injuries, it can all fall apart as well.

How can you say there are no adjustments after a slow start and then scoring later in the game? Isn't adjustments the reason for that? This last season the slow starts and falling behind can be credited directly to getting beat with the 5-10 yards passes that turn into longer plays. That was the results of having some of the poorest linebacker play in the league. That was also a result from injuries and having to use players out of position and not ready to play. Rookies were forced to play when they wasn't ready. There was no depth and the drop off in talent from the starters to the next tier was astronomical. With that in mind was that really Pagano's fault? 

[Yoshinator]

5 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

How can you say there are no adjustments after a slow start and then scoring later in the game? Isn't adjustments the reason for that? This last season the slow starts and falling behind can be credited directly to getting beat with the 5-10 yards passes that turn into longer plays. That was the results of having some of the poorest linebacker play in the league. That was also a result from injuries and having to use players out of position and not ready to play. Rookies were forced to play when they wasn't ready. There was no depth and the drop off in talent from the starters to the next tier was astronomical. With that in mind was that really Pagano's fault? 

There are halftime adjustments, but they never adjust their original gameplan to start the game. That's why it's continual slow start after slow start. You don't see them do screens or slants, you don't see anything different out of the ordinary, it's just a power running game and throw it deep. Every single time. When that doesn't work, they put the ball in Luck's hands and he gets them back in it the 2nd half. You aren't wrong about the injuries and rookies, but that's when you have to use what you got to their strengths and use the playbook around them, which we weren't doing. It is both Pagano's and Chud's fault.

[crazycolt1]

10 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

There are halftime adjustments, but they never adjust their original gameplan to start the game. That's why it's continual slow start after slow start. You don't see them do screens or slants, you don't see anything different out of the ordinary, it's just a power running game and throw it deep. Every single time. When that doesn't work, they put the ball in Luck's hands and he gets them back in it the 2nd half. You aren't wrong about the injuries and rookies, but that's when you have to use what you got to their strengths and use the playbook around them, which we weren't doing. It is both Pagano's and Chud's fault.

While I agree to a certain point you have to have the O-line to run screens. We haven't had the O-line to get that done. I brought up the point of how many OCs Luck has had and it has shown.

You say using your defensive players to their strengths? There were no strengths to speak of with as many injuries as we had.   .      Hopefully things will be better with the changes that have been made. Getting the pieces to fall together will be interesting but there will be times when it will a hair pulling experience.

[Yoshinator]

Just now, crazycolt1 said:

While I agree to a certain point you have to have the O-line to run screens. We haven't had the O-line to get that done. I brought up the point of how many OCs Luck has had and it has shown.

You say using your defensive players to their strengths? There were no strengths to speak of with as many injuries as we had.   .      Hopefully things will be better with the changes that have been made. Getting the pieces to fall together will be interesting but there will be times when it will a hair pulling experience.

I guess I mean if a player is fast or can tackle well, or can blitz well or stuff the runner. Most of the guys last year were one-dimensional players that you had to figure out what they were good at, and use them that way. No one liked the draft better than me this year on this forum. I liked almost every pick and had a few at BPA, just like Ballard, at our pick. The defense should be MUCH improved between draft picks and FA. There's no excuse that we should be performing like last year. I'm just praying that Luck is healthy at the start of the year so we get a fair chance to compete with all our new players.