Pagano ranked as best HC in AFCS

[Steamboat_Shaun]

1 hour ago, Peterk2011 said:

 

That wasnt just 1 redeeming quality. Any stats other than turnovers and ppg allowed are for going into detail. to help evaluate/understand the weaknesses and strengths of the defense. Where to fix, and what to fix. But ultimately, all these add up in 2 stats, points allowed and turnovers  How many points your defense allows and how many times your defense turns the ball over and gives your offense extra opportunities to score. 

 

So, being 3rd in turnovers, and top15 (top10? cant recall, but in top half for sure) in points allowed are not just 2 stats of the many, but the definiton of a quality opportunistic defense. 

 

Anyway, imo we are going nowhere here. As I said, I didn't mean offense or defense, I was talking about overall roster quality. It doesn't matter if it's a "just good in everything" roster with top offense and defense or a historically good defense with a mediocre offense (or vice versa), the point was: you need a quality roster to be successfull. In the above cases - whichever case it is - you have such a roster. Belichick had such a roster in 2011. Kubiak had such a roster in 2015 despite his offense was worse than a meh... Pagano never had such a roster yet. Not only he never had it, but in 3 years out of the 5, his roster was lightyears from being even just decent. So it's not fair to expect him to be up there with those guys who have such rosters to work with.

 

As I said, I don't think Pagano is the next Parcels in the making. He may or may not be, I don't know. I just think that by counting all the pros and cons, he did show enough to earn the benefit of doubt. A chance - and some time - to prove himself with a GM who is helping him instead of pulling him back. Don't get me wrong, if I was sure that we'll find a better guy for his job, I'd say let him go. Right now. But sadly, good NFL coaches don't grow on trees. They are hard to find. I think its harder than finding a decent GM. So, let's make sure that the guy is incapable before showing him the door.

 

That's always been my approach with Pagano, but as far as the roster goes, I'm sure he had his hand in that as well. I'm looking forward to seeing what he can pull off with an NFL caliber roster, but I'm tempering my expectations, & I'd be surprised if he gets extended.

[Jason_]

17 hours ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

Well, unfortunately, we kind of have to.

 

No..we don't.  That's like saying we have to measure Luck right now vs. what Peyton was in his prime.  It's unrealistic.  It's unfair to the player/coach.  Bill Belichick wasn't the coach that he is now when he was in his 5th year as a HC.  A large reason for Bill becoming the coach that he has become is through experience.  

 

I'm sure the Ravens are happy with Jim Harbaugh, but I imagine there are at least a few Ravens' fans who wonder what would have happened if the (then) Browns had stuck with Bill a little longer.  And no, of course I'm not saying that Pagano is destined to be the next 

 

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Pagano is, after all, the 2nd most tenured coach in Indianapolis Colts history. 

 

that really is completely irrelevant.

 

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And the biggest complaint amongst Colts fans the past few years, unanimously, has been that even with a great franchise QB in place, we're still not able to get over the hump and beat the Patriots. So as long as Belichick's the coach in New England, he IS the measuring stick.

 

yeah, he's the measuring stick for 31 teams, and guess how many teams measure up to that?  None.  Zero.

 

it's one thing to say that Bill is the measuring stick.  It's a very different thing to say that, hey our HC is in his 5th year, but he's not as good as Bill is who is in his 26th year so we need to cut Pagano loose and start over.  By that logic, 31 teams need to fire their coach and we should cut Luck because he's not as good as Peyton was in his prime.

[Steamboat_Shaun]

9 minutes ago, J@son said:

 

No..we don't.  That's like saying we have to measure Luck right now vs. what Peyton was in his prime.  It's unrealistic.  It's unfair to the player/coach.  Bill Belichick wasn't the coach that he is now when he was in his 5th year as a HC.  A large reason for Bill becoming the coach that he has become is through experience.  

 

I'm sure the Ravens are happy with Jim Harbaugh, but I imagine there are at least a few Ravens' fans who wonder what would have happened if the (then) Browns had stuck with Bill a little longer.  And no, of course I'm not saying that Pagano is destined to be the next 

 

 

that really is completely irrelevant.

 

 

yeah, he's the measuring stick for 31 teams, and guess how many teams measure up to that?  None.  Zero.

 

it's one thing to say that Bill is the measuring stick.  It's a very different thing to say that, hey our HC is in his 5th year, but he's not as good as Bill is who is in his 26th year so we need to cut Pagano loose and start over.  By that logic, 31 teams need to fire their coach and we should cut Luck because he's not as good as Peyton was in his prime.

 

I think most people are reasonable enough to look at where Luck's at in year 6 compared to where Manning was in his 6th season. By that measurement, Luck's actually ahead of schedule. And it's definitely not irrelevant that Chuck is on the verge of being the longest tenured coach in Indy history. The 2 Colts coaches before him went to Super Bowls, and he's about to outlast both of them, and that's somehow "irrelevant?" It may not be the most relevant observation ever, but the point is that his leash has been a lot longer than most in his profession, and to talk about him and not acknowledge that, at least to me, it seems dismissive.

 

As far as Belichick goes, Chuck's 0-for-the-century against him (& Tomlin), and as a coach, you'll always be compared to the guy(s) that you can't beat, same as a player. Whether or not that's fair is another conversation all together.

 

Overall, there are lots of Colts fans that think Chuck's 15 overall rated is 17 spots too high, I'm not one of those people, but I won't pretend that I'm totally sold on him as our best option as head coach. He has clock management issues, he has SERIOUS gameplanning and in-game adjustment issues, he sometimes coddles players and rewards their bad play with more playing time when they really need to take a seat on the bench. Hey maybe he pulls it all together this year and we see a whole new approach, who knows. If he does, great. But I stand by what I've said before, I'd be very surprised if he gets extended.

[Jason_]

38 minutes ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

. And it's definitely not irrelevant that Chuck is on the verge of being the longest tenured coach in Indy history. The 2 Colts coaches before him went to Super Bowls, and he's about to outlast both of them, and that's somehow "irrelevant?" It may not be the most relevant observation ever, but the point is that his leash has been a lot longer than most in his profession, and to talk about him and not acknowledge that, at least to me, it seems dismissive.

 

 

in regards to my comment about his tenure being irrelevant, you had made that initial comment immediately following the comment about Belichick.  So I meant him being the longest tenured HC was irrelevant to comparing him to Bill.  

 

However, remember that Dungy decided to retire.  He chose to walk away when he did or he would have been the colts coach for much longer.  so even in the overall discussion of him being the most tenured, yes I still think it's mostly irrelevant.  And sure, he's been given more leash than many in his profession, but 1) that's partly because so many teams like the Browns and Jags are hiring a new HC every other year and 2) maybe, just maybe Irsay understands that many of the issues that have plagued the Colts the past few years have been more on Grigson than Pagano.  Irsay has been in the business for a while now, and he does know a thing or 2 about running a successful team and he decided that pagano deserved another year at the helm.  He obviously had his reasons for doing that.

 

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I think most people are reasonable enough to look at where Luck's at in year 6 compared to where Manning was in his 6th season. By that measurement, Luck's actually ahead of schedule

 

using that same logic, Chuck Pagano is ahead of schedule compared to Bill Belichick.  ;)

[southwest1]

On June 26, 2017 at 9:30 AM, J@son said:

 

well, since we're playing the hypothetical game...what will you say if Chuck gets extended this offseason?

No, because Jimmy gave him this season to make up for or give him a fair shake since Bruce Arians took over when Chuck was getting life saving cancer treatments. 

 

If Jimmy gives Chuck another extension, the Colts will continue to lose in the playoffs against high caliber elite teams like Pittsburgh & NE. I'm done with Pagano & I'm ready for some new vision Jason. 

[Jason_]

9 hours ago, southwest1 said:

No, because Jimmy gave him this season to make up for or give him a fair shake since Bruce Arians took over when Chuck was getting life saving cancer treatments. 

 

If Jimmy gives Chuck another extension, the Colts will continue to lose in the playoffs against high caliber elite teams like Pittsburgh & NE. I'm done with Pagano & I'm ready for some new vision Jason. 

 

So, if Irsay decides to extend Pagano, you're going to say, "no"?

[Myles]

On 6/28/2017 at 1:03 PM, J@son said:

 

 

 

using that same logic, Chuck Pagano is ahead of schedule compared to Bill Belichick.  ;)

or Chuck is way behind schedule compared to Dungy or even Caldwell.

 

I'm good with keeping Pagano through this year and see if he steps up with the improvements of the roster.    If the Colts finish below 10-6, I'd boot him.  

[Jason_]

10 minutes ago, Myles said:

or Chuck is way behind schedule compared to Dungy or even Caldwell.

 

I'm good with keeping Pagano through this year and see if he steps up with the improvements of the roster.    If the Colts finish below 10-6, I'd boot him.  

 

Honestly I think it could be argued that he's ahead of schedule compared to both.  Dungy already had more experience than Chuck currently has when he was first hired as Indy's head coach.  He already had 6 years experience as a HC prior to even coming to Indy.  And it could very well be argued that Pagano's was overall more successful in his first 5 years than Dungy was in his first 5 in Tampa.  

 

Before anyone chimes in with, "well but dungy didn't have Luck in Tampa."  that's true, but my counter to that is that Pagano has not had anywhere even CLOSE to the defensive talent that Dungy did.

[mahagga73]

.O Brien is easily the better coach. He has clowned Pagano twice in a row at home in defacto playoff , division winner games. And Bill hasn't had a QB worth squat yet either. 

[crazycolt1]

2 hours ago, mahagga73 said:

.O Brien is easily the better coach. He has clowned Pagano twice in a row at home in defacto playoff , division winner games. And Bill hasn't had a QB worth squat yet either. 

Clowned? 

[Peterk2011]

On 2017. 06. 28. at 6:25 PM, Steamboat_Shaun said:

And it's definitely not irrelevant that Chuck is on the verge of being the longest tenured coach in Indy history. The 2 Colts coaches before him went to Super Bowls, and he's about to outlast both of them, and that's somehow "irrelevant?" It may not be the most relevant observation ever, but the point is that his leash has been a lot longer than most in his profession, and to talk about him and not acknowledge that, at least to me, it seems dismissive.

 

No, it's not "irrelevant". But you need to evaluate them within their context. You should add, that Dungy had Bill Polian as his GM, and Pagano had Grigson. By ignoring such facts, anyone can say Tom Brady was already one of the all time best by his 5th year of his carreer, because he won 3 rings already, while Manning was a mediocre quarterback because he hasn't yet won a single playoff game. None of it would be true.

 

Btw, it's interesting to check back how the Manning era began and then unfolded later. In 1998, the Colts hired GM Bill Polian, HC Jim Mora, and drafted Peyton. They had a rough beginning with a 3-13, then a pleasant turnaround finishing 13-3, then 10-6, followed by a 6-10 season. After the 2001 season, Irsay fired Mora, but kept Polian. Then came Tony Dungy, who, along with Polian built one of the best teams and winning it all eventually in 2006. 

 

In 2012, the Colts hired GM Grigson, HC Pagano and drafted Andrew. Much less ups and downs this time. Better start, some respectable playoff success (compared to none in Peytons time). Then, less drastic downfall as far as records go, but more obvious downward trend in overall roster talent. We were all surprised, that after 4 years, Irsay didn't make a change. Then a year later he fired Grigson. But kept Pagano.

 

My take on the events are that:

a) comparing the 2 era, in Peyton's time it was rather a coaching issue, than lack of acquiring talents, while in Luck's era it was more of a management issue than lack of coaching (altough nothing is black or white of course). And Irsay responded accordingly. But....

b) Why didn't he fire Grigson last year? Why didn't he fire him this year on black monday, why waited almost a month? Imo, either he didn't intend to fire him - still had some fate in him when nobody had already -, but an in-house issue triggered the move. Or he made up his mind already, but didn't pull the trigger until outside conditions met (he had intel of the availibility of successors he liked).

c) my gut feeling is that Irsay likes Pagano. Not just as a person, but I mean he likes him as a HC. He sees potential in the guy. Imo, the "make or break" year is a product of the media and maybe the desire of the fanbase, but in Irsay's mind - currently - Pagano is, and will be the Colts coach for the foreseable future. (Which might change of course, if the sucks.)

 

All in all, Pagano might stay or not, all what matters is that I trust Irsay. He will know whether Pagano should go or stay. Irsay is still one of the better owners. Yeah, he should't be allowed to tweet lol, and he should talk less sometimes, but when it's decision time he is good. A guy like Ballard wouldn't have came here to work under a senile old man, that is for sure.

[Jason_]

1 hour ago, Peterk2011 said:

 

No, it's not "irrelevant". But you need to evaluate them within their context. You should add, that Dungy had Bill Polian as his GM, and Pagano had Grigson. By ignoring such facts, anyone can say Tom Brady was already one of the all time best by his 5th year of his carreer, because he won 3 rings already, while Manning was a mediocre quarterback because he hasn't yet won a single playoff game. None of it would be true.

 

Btw, it's interesting to check back how the Manning era began and then unfolded later. In 1998, the Colts hired GM Bill Polian, HC Jim Mora, and drafted Peyton. They had a rough beginning with a 3-13, then a pleasant turnaround finishing 13-3, then 10-6, followed by a 6-10 season. After the 2001 season, Irsay fired Mora, but kept Polian. Then came Tony Dungy, who, along with Polian built one of the best teams and winning it all eventually in 2006. 

 

In 2012, the Colts hired GM Grigson, HC Pagano and drafted Andrew. Much less ups and downs this time. Better start, some respectable playoff success (compared to none in Peytons time). Then, less drastic downfall as far as records go, but more obvious downward trend in overall roster talent. We were all surprised, that after 4 years, Irsay didn't make a change. Then a year later he fired Grigson. But kept Pagano.

 

My take on the events are that:

a) comparing the 2 era, in Peyton's time it was rather a coaching issue, than lack of acquiring talents, while in Luck's era it was more of a management issue than lack of coaching (altough nothing is black or white of course). And Irsay responded accordingly. But....

b) Why didn't he fire Grigson last year? Why didn't he fire him this year on black monday, why waited almost a month? Imo, either he didn't intend to fire him - still had some fate in him when nobody had already -, but an in-house issue triggered the move. Or he made up his mind already, but didn't pull the trigger until outside conditions met (he had intel of the availibility of successors he liked).

c) my gut feeling is that Irsay likes Pagano. Not just as a person, but I mean he likes him as a HC. He sees potential in the guy. Imo, the "make or break" year is a product of the media and maybe the desire of the fanbase, but in Irsay's mind - currently - Pagano is, and will be the Colts coach for the foreseable future. (Which might change of course, if the sucks.)

 

All in all, Pagano might stay or not, all what matters is that I trust Irsay. He will know whether Pagano should go or stay. Irsay is still one of the better owners. Yeah, he should't be allowed to tweet lol, and he should talk less sometimes, but when it's decision time he is good. A guy like Ballard wouldn't have came here to work under a senile old man, that is for sure.

 

Very well said

[colt18]

Did I read someone saying Laron Landry wasn't terrible for us?

[colt18]

mannnnnn. best HC in the division my butt