Dline and pressure - kicking a dead horse.

[Solid84]

So, I saw this on twitter today:

I would wish we'd give Lewis a chance over Paye. I know we want to stop the run as well (which is Paye's strength), but I really think stopping the passing game has to be a priority if we want to compete against the top dogs in the AFC.

 

This also shows how poor our defense was a creating pressure. I hope Latu takes off - we need him to!

[lollygagger8]

Dang, the last time I said Paye was JAG, I got lots of people telling me how good he is. 

 

Unfortunately it's the same thing with him every year, and everyone says......"Oh next year he'll be really good" 

 

I would love to be wrong, so here's hoping this year is different and he finally breaks out. 

[TheNewGuy]

 Does anyone have the snap counts for both players? On vacation so don't have alot of time to search, but curious.

[TheNewGuy]

22 minutes ago, TheNewGuy said:

 Does anyone have the snap counts for both players? On vacation so don't have alot of time to search, but curious.

Nevermind here they are.

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/clt/2023-snap-counts.htm

 

[TheNewGuy]

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/L/LewiTy00.htm

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PayeKw00.htm

 

 Just for arguements sake...

[NewColtsFan]

7 hours ago, Solid84 said:

So, I saw this on twitter today:

I would wish we'd give Lewis a chance over Paye. I know we want to stop the run as well (which is Paye's strength), but I really think stopping the passing game has to be a priority if we want to compete against the top dogs in the AFC.

 

This also shows how poor our defense was a creating pressure. I hope Latu takes off - we need him to!

I would think that Chris Ballard likely agrees with you.   
 

Despite being the only team — yes, ONLY TEAM IN THE NFL — to have four players with 8 or more sacks last season, what did Ballard do?   
 

First, he hired the best DL on the market, a guy who had multiple offers from both the NFL and college (Alabama, BEFORE Nick Saban retired) Charlie Partridge picked the Colts.  Turns out he and Ballard have been friends for over a decade.

 

Then, the draft broke the Colts way and they had their pick of any player, any Dlineman.   And they took Laiatu.  On tape, Ballard called him the best pass rusher in the draft. 
 

Laiatu should make the Colts better.  Partridge should make ALL of our lineman better.   The D-line was just ranked 3rd overall by PFF.   So we should be very good and getting even better.  
 

Bottom line:  Chris Ballard agrees with you.   Whether or not that means more snaps for Lewis is too soon to know. 
 

Hope this helps. 

[Superman]

9 hours ago, Solid84 said:

I would wish we'd give Lewis a chance over Paye. I know we want to stop the run as well (which is Paye's strength), but I really think stopping the passing game has to be a priority if we want to compete against the top dogs in the AFC.

 

Tyquan Lewis moves around on passing downs, while Paye plays LEO almost exclusively. I think Paye typically has a tougher assignment in passing situations. Maybe they should start moving him around like they do Lewis, see if that gets more production out of him.

 

Either way, your point is obvious. We don't use the blitz, so the DL has to get better at creating pressures. And like NCF said, I think the staff has acknowledged this by changing the DL coach, and drafting a highly touted Edge at #15. And that's our main hope for the pass rush to show improvement this season. 

 

I'd like to see this chart by team, rather than by player...

[KB]

3 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

I would think that Chris Ballard likely agrees with you.   
 

Despite being the only team — yes, ONLY TEAM IN THE NFL — to have four players with 8 or more sacks last season, what did Ballard do?   
 

First, he hired the best DL on the market, a guy who had multiple offers from both the NFL and college (Alabama, BEFORE Nick Saban retired) Charlie Partridge picked the Colts.  Turns out he and Ballard have been friends for over a decade.

 

Then, the draft broke the Colts way and they had their pick of any player, any Dlineman.   And they took Laiatu.  On tape, Ballard called him the best pass rusher in the draft. 
 

Laiatu should make the Colts better.  Partridge should make ALL of our lineman better.   The D-line was just ranked 3rd overall by PFF.   So we should be very good and getting even better.  
 

Bottom line:  Chris Ballard agrees with you.   Whether or not that means more snaps for Lewis is too soon to know. 
 

Hope this helps. 

https://www.stampedeblue.com/2024/7/1/24190150/per-pff-colts-have-nfls-third-best-offensive-line-entering-2024-season

 

https://coltswire.usatoday.com/2024/06/25/where-does-colts-defensive-line-unit-land-in-pffs-rankings/

 

This might be splitting hairs, but I figured I'd give a small correction. Our O line was ranked number 3. Our D line was ranked number 7. Still top ten for pff. I like having some strong line play to look forward too next season.

[throwing BBZ]

5 hours ago, lollygagger8 said:

Dang, the last time I said Paye was JAG, I got lots of people telling me how good he is. 

 

Unfortunately it's the same thing with him every year, and everyone says......"Oh next year he'll be really good" 

 

I would love to be wrong, so here's hoping this year is different and he finally breaks out. 

 

 

He was above average DE at doing the job he was asked to do.

His PFF grade was 74.3. 4 points higher than Nelson earned.

 For those that want to understand, Paye played 700 snaps leaving over 400 snaps for Lewis and Dayo in prominently passing situations.

 He played the run very well, used his speed to cover screens even better.

He had 2 less sacks than Joey Bosa while playing a couple hundred fewer snaps. It is simple, if Kwity was asked to play in all those passing situations he would be able to get 12-15 sacks and have many more pressures.

 Ballard and our coaches choose depth and waves.

 Knock on wood for the health of our rookie. He should create havoc like Freeney did. What would be really great is if Dayo could take snaps from Grover, giving us a better rush on 1st down. Come on Dayo!!!

[Solid84]

3 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Tyquan Lewis moves around on passing downs, while Paye plays LEO almost exclusively. I think Paye typically has a tougher assignment in passing situations. Maybe they should start moving him around like they do Lewis, see if that gets more production out of him.

 

Either way, your point is obvious. We don't use the blitz, so the DL has to get better at creating pressures. And like NCF said, I think the staff has acknowledged this by changing the DL coach, and drafting a highly touted Edge at #15. And that's our main hope for the pass rush to show improvement this season. 

 

I'd like to see this chart by team, rather than by player...

True, but compare him to Ebukam who plays almost exclusively opposite of Paye and who arguably faces tougher opposition in the opponents’ LTs. He still does significantly better. 

Look, I’m not saying we should boot him or anything - we just picked up his 5th year option. But, at some point you have to acknowledge other player(s) could be a better option as the starter. Start your best players. Let them earn the starting spot. 
 

I am happy we’re making changes to the coaching staff and drafting one the two best pass rushers in this years draft.

[Superman]

1 hour ago, Solid84 said:

True, but compare him to Ebukam who plays almost exclusively opposite of Paye and who arguably faces tougher opposition in the opponents’ LTs. He still does significantly better. 

Look, I’m not saying we should boot him or anything - we just picked up his 5th year option. But, at some point you have to acknowledge other player(s) could be a better option as the starter. Start your best players. Let them earn the starting spot. 
 

I am happy we’re making changes to the coaching staff and drafting one the two best pass rushers in this years draft.

 

I argued that I would NOT have picked up Paye's 5th year option, so yeah. Not being defensive over Paye. I was just responding to the comparison with Lewis, who gets used differently, especially on passing downs. 

 

Earlier in the offseason I posted the PRP for some of our DL players. Ebukam was 6.7, Paye was 4.6. So yeah, Ebukam is a better/more productive pass rusher than Paye (and Dayo). Lewis was 9.8, easily the best of all our Edge players, but again, he gets used differently. And I think that rather than using Lewis at LEO or REO on passing downs -- where his PRP would probably come down -- it would make sense to move Paye around a little more. Hopefully having Latu makes that easier to accomplish.

[ProblChld32]

On 7/9/2024 at 1:17 AM, Solid84 said:

So, I saw this on twitter today:

I would wish we'd give Lewis a chance over Paye. I know we want to stop the run as well (which is Paye's strength), but I really think stopping the passing game has to be a priority if we want to compete against the top dogs in the AFC.

 

This also shows how poor our defense was a creating pressure. I hope Latu takes off - we need him to!

I think this data set is a bit misleading due to the amount of snaps these guys are playing. I’m almost certain that Kwity played almost 300 more snaps than Lewis had. Also Lewis moves around the line a lot while Kwity played exclusively on the edge. So it’s more so about him doing the job he’s asked, now I’m not saying that Kwity would have the same effectiveness as Lewis had they moved him around similarly but we don’t know that he wouldn’t. 

[Solid84]

53 minutes ago, ProblChld32 said:

I think this data set is a bit misleading due to the amount of snaps these guys are playing. I’m almost certain that Kwity played almost 300 more snaps than Lewis had. Also Lewis moves around the line a lot while Kwity played exclusively on the edge. So it’s more so about him doing the job he’s asked, now I’m not saying that Kwity would have the same effectiveness as Lewis had they moved him around similarly but we don’t know that he wouldn’t. 

Paye had 700 total snaps (287 run, 410 pass) and had 28 total pressures.

Lewis had 437 total snaps (178 run, 259 pass) and had 44 total pressures.

 

According to PFF* Lewis had 248 true pass rush sets and Paye had 393.

From the left side (LOLB, LEO and LE) they had 158 and 363 pass rush sets respectively.

In Lewis' 158 sets he had 32 total pressures (4 sacks, 5 hits and 23 hurries).

In Paye's 363 sets he had 27 total pressures (7 sacks, 2 hits and 18 hurries).

 

In less than half the snaps Lewis had more total pressures from the same edge as Paye.

 

*PFF has the numbers. I encourage anyone and everyone interested in this or anything else football-statistics related to sign up!

[lollygagger8]

18 hours ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 

He was above average DE at doing the job he was asked to do.

His PFF grade was 74.3. 4 points higher than Nelson earned.

 For those that want to understand, Paye played 700 snaps leaving over 400 snaps for Lewis and Dayo in prominently passing situations.

 He played the run very well, used his speed to cover screens even better.

He had 2 less sacks than Joey Bosa while playing a couple hundred fewer snaps. It is simple, if Kwity was asked to play in all those passing situations he would be able to get 12-15 sacks and have many more pressures.

 Ballard and our coaches choose depth and waves.

 Knock on wood for the health of our rookie. He should create havoc like Freeney did. What would be really great is if Dayo could take snaps from Grover, giving us a better rush on 1st down. Come on Dayo!!!

 

I take PFF grades with a grain of salt, as most of the time they are head scratching at best. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I want Paye to succeed BIG time but saying he would get 12-15 sacks is just guessing. I'm going to leave it up to the coaching staff on whether he has the motor for that. Besides, I'm with you and hope Dayo and Lewis get more snaps. 

 

Being tied for 33rd in sacks last year w/ 8.5.....here's hoping Paye can move that number up this year to at least double digits. 

 

I am excited to see how Latu does. That guy looks legit. 

[TheNewGuy]

50 minutes ago, lollygagger8 said:

 

I take PFF grades with a grain of salt, as most of the time they are head scratching at best. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I want Paye to succeed BIG time but saying he would get 12-15 sacks is just guessing. I'm going to leave it up to the coaching staff on whether he has the motor for that. Besides, I'm with you and hope Dayo and Lewis get more snaps. 

 

Being tied for 33rd in sacks last year w/ 8.5.....here's hoping Paye can move that number up this year to at least double digits. 

 

I am excited to see how Latu does. That guy looks legit. 

To the bolded, I wholeheartedly agree, though they do offer insight that plain stats don't necessarily. I kind of find the Lewis/Paye conundrum strange though? I loved the Lewis pick but he has barely set the world on fire in 6 seasons with 13.5 sacks total(95 games played). He has been healthy for a full season twice, in which he predominately came off the bench...which would reason that may be his best spot?

 

I just hope the entire team "balls out" and the Colts return to the playoffs and for a deep run. Go Colts!

[lollygagger8]

1 hour ago, TheNewGuy said:

To the bolded, I wholeheartedly agree, though they do offer insight that plain stats don't necessarily. I kind of find the Lewis/Paye conundrum strange though? I loved the Lewis pick but he has barely set the world on fire in 6 seasons with 13.5 sacks total(95 games played). He has been healthy for a full season twice, in which he predominately came off the bench...which would reason that may be his best spot?

 

I just hope the entire team "balls out" and the Colts return to the playoffs and for a deep run. Go Colts!

 

[throwing BBZ]

3 hours ago, lollygagger8 said:

 

I take PFF grades with a grain of salt, as most of the time they are head scratching at best. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I want Paye to succeed BIG time but saying he would get 12-15 sacks is just guessing. I'm going to leave it up to the coaching staff on whether he has the motor for that. Besides, I'm with you and hope Dayo and Lewis get more snaps. 

 

Being tied for 33rd in sacks last year w/ 8.5.....here's hoping Paye can move that number up this year to at least double digits. 

 

I am excited to see how Latu does. That guy looks legit. 

 

 I don't expect his roll to change with Dayo, Lewis, and now Latu in the mix.

His job #1 is to play the run on 1st down, to defend his edge, and cover the flat. Get them in 2nd and long.  

And I would wager on the under that he gets the 700 snaps that he got last year because of our talented depth.

 So repeating 8.5 sacks, i'll logically take the under.

[OLD FAN MAN]

15 hours ago, ProblChld32 said:

I think this data set is a bit misleading due to the amount of snaps these guys are playing. I’m almost certain that Kwity played almost 300 more snaps than Lewis had. Also Lewis moves around the line a lot while Kwity played exclusively on the edge. So it’s more so about him doing the job he’s asked, now I’m not saying that Kwity would have the same effectiveness as Lewis had they moved him around similarly but we don’t know that he wouldn’t. 

so far he has not been a game changer for us and this is a position that game changers can make a big difference

 

[NewColtsFan]

14 hours ago, lollygagger8 said:

 

I take PFF grades with a grain of salt, as most of the time they are head scratching at best. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I want Paye to succeed BIG time but saying he would get 12-15 sacks is just guessing. I'm going to leave it up to the coaching staff on whether he has the motor for that. Besides, I'm with you and hope Dayo and Lewis get more snaps. 

 

Being tied for 33rd in sacks last year w/ 8.5.....here's hoping Paye can move that number up this year to at least double digits. 

 

I am excited to see how Latu does. That guy looks legit. 

I understand fans being skeptical about PFF grades.  I’m a subscriber, but still find some grades head scratching.  
 

That said…. Each player is graded on each play in every game by THREE different evaluators.   Each evaluator is more experienced than the one before him.   So even if you think they’re wrong, they shouldn’t be off by more than one level of ranking.  (If that makes any sense?).  
 

I wish the website did a better job of explaining itself.  That would be helpful, especially with the skeptics.  

[NewColtsFan]

On 7/9/2024 at 7:54 AM, Superman said:

 

Tyquan Lewis moves around on passing downs, while Paye plays LEO almost exclusively. I think Paye typically has a tougher assignment in passing situations. Maybe they should start moving him around like they do Lewis, see if that gets more production out of him.

 

Either way, your point is obvious. We don't use the blitz, so the DL has to get better at creating pressures. And like NCF said, I think the staff has acknowledged this by changing the DL coach, and drafting a highly touted Edge at #15. And that's our main hope for the pass rush to show improvement this season. 

 

I'd like to see this chart by team, rather than by player...

Question:  I believe you have access to far more next level stats and info than I do.  But you wrote something that jumped out at me so I thought I’d ask.  
 

It’s been my observation (certainly last year) that Ebukum and Dayo played the RDE, which I’ve always thought is the LEO.  
And that Paye and Lewis played the left side.  I think Paye has most played LDE his three years here. 
 

Yet you wrote that Paye plays the LEO almost exclusively.  By my eyeball test, it’s false and the opposite is true.  Can you double check that?   
 

Sorry for the homework, my PFF stats don’t offer that info. 

[BeanDiasucci]

On 7/10/2024 at 10:41 AM, throwing BBZ said:

 

 I don't expect his roll to change with Dayo, Lewis, and now Latu in the mix.

His job #1 is to play the run on 1st down, to defend his edge, and cover the flat. Get them in 2nd and long.  

And I would wager on the under that he gets the 700 snaps that he got last year because of our talented depth.

 So repeating 8.5 sacks, i'll logically take the under.

 

In a league where teams pass almost 65% of the time on first down, does that role for Paye still make sense? (most recent year where I could find that stat: https://www.acefootballanalytics.com/post/nfl-2020-1st-down-run-pass-by-team#:~:text=First Downs have become pass,down across all NFL teams.)

 

With teams averaging 7.4 yards when passing on first down and 4.8 yards when rushing on first down, isn't the trend for passing more on first down likely to increase and put more emphasis on first down pass rushing? (2022 season, the most recent for which I could find this stat: https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/which-nfl-trends-will-carry-into-2022-season-fourth-down-aggressiveness-first-down-passing-more/_)

 

I don't know the answers to these questions, but think they are interesting ones in considering the role of a player like Kwity Paye. 

[Superman]

12 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

Question:  I believe you have access to far more next level stats and info than I do.  But you wrote something that jumped out at me so I thought I’d ask.  
 

It’s been my observation (certainly last year) that Ebukum and Dayo played the RDE, which I’ve always thought is the LEO.  
And that Paye and Lewis played the left side.  I think Paye has most played LDE his three years here. 
 

Yet you wrote that Paye plays the LEO almost exclusively.  By my eyeball test, it’s false and the opposite is true.  Can you double check that?   
 

Sorry for the homework, my PFF stats don’t offer that info. 

 

Schematically, LEO is supposed to be the weakside defensive end, lined up in a wide alignment. Not necessarily right or left side. But I think PFF uses LEO and REO to refer to any wide defensive end, without referencing whether he's weakside or strongside. (PFF's numbers don't make sense if we're using the schematic definition of LEO, and I don't think REO is a schematic position.) So I was using PFF's lingo, not the schematic lingo.

 

Based on PFF's charting, they have Paye at LEO on 616 of his 697 defensive snaps last season. I think that means he's the wide defensive end on the left side for those snaps; it doesn't necessarily mean he was on the weakside of the formation, though. He has another 32 snaps on the left side (LDE, LOLB). 

 

Their charting shows Lewis on the left side (49%) and right side (41%) pretty evenly. So to rephrase my earlier comment, Paye plays wide LE defensive end, almost exclusively (93%). Lewis plays a variety of spots, including moving inside (10%) more frequently than Paye does.

 

Dayo plays on the left side about 60%, and he moves inside about 16% of snaps. And then Ebukam is the opposite of Paye, on the right side almost exclusively (92%).

 

So Ebukam is basically a full time right DE, and Paye is a full time left DE. Dayo and Lewis play both sides, and they move inside, usually in passing situations. 

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

Schematically, LEO is supposed to be the weakside defensive end, lined up in a wide alignment. Not necessarily right or left side. But I think PFF uses LEO and REO to refer to any wide defensive end, without referencing whether he's weakside or strongside. (PFF's numbers don't make sense if we're using the schematic definition of LEO, and I don't think REO is a schematic position.) So I was using PFF's lingo, not the schematic lingo.

 

Based on PFF's charting, they have Paye at LEO on 616 of his 697 defensive snaps last season. I think that means he's the wide defensive end on the left side for those snaps; it doesn't necessarily mean he was on the weakside of the formation, though. He has another 32 snaps on the left side (LDE, LOLB). 

 

Their charting shows Lewis on the left side (49%) and right side (41%) pretty evenly. So to rephrase my earlier comment, Paye plays wide LE defensive end, almost exclusively (93%). Lewis plays a variety of spots, including moving inside (10%) more frequently than Paye does.

 

Dayo plays on the left side about 60%, and he moves inside about 16% of snaps. And then Ebukam is the opposite of Paye, on the right side almost exclusively (92%).

 

So Ebukam is basically a full time right DE, and Paye is a full time left DE. Dayo and Lewis play both sides, and they move inside, usually in passing situations. 

Thanks.   Honestly, that’s a lot for me to absorb.  I may need to re-read that once or twice.   But I think I get the gist of it. 
 

Didnt mean to push you to do that much research and homework.   Appreciate all the time and effort it took to put this together.    

[2006Coltsbestever]

Time for another beer, on my day off 

[Solid84]

5 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Schematically, LEO is supposed to be the weakside defensive end, lined up in a wide alignment. Not necessarily right or left side. But I think PFF uses LEO and REO to refer to any wide defensive end, without referencing whether he's weakside or strongside. (PFF's numbers don't make sense if we're using the schematic definition of LEO, and I don't think REO is a schematic position.) So I was using PFF's lingo, not the schematic lingo.

 

Based on PFF's charting, they have Paye at LEO on 616 of his 697 defensive snaps last season. I think that means he's the wide defensive end on the left side for those snaps; it doesn't necessarily mean he was on the weakside of the formation, though. He has another 32 snaps on the left side (LDE, LOLB). 

 

Their charting shows Lewis on the left side (49%) and right side (41%) pretty evenly. So to rephrase my earlier comment, Paye plays wide LE defensive end, almost exclusively (93%). Lewis plays a variety of spots, including moving inside (10%) more frequently than Paye does.

 

Dayo plays on the left side about 60%, and he moves inside about 16% of snaps. And then Ebukam is the opposite of Paye, on the right side almost exclusively (92%).

 

So Ebukam is basically a full time right DE, and Paye is a full time left DE. Dayo and Lewis play both sides, and they move inside, usually in passing situations. 

If you look up the pass rush productivity grades you’ll see Lewis has almost double the snaps on the left side during pass rush sets as he has on the right (158 vs. 88).
 

Seems he’s primarily taking Paye’s off-snaps there - at least the pass rush snaps. He’s also more productive on the left than he is on the right. 

[NorthernColt]

Payes motor is phenomenal. Plays the run great too. But he's never had the pass rush gene. I think he is what he is, which is not bad at all, but not going to be the guy that stirs the drink. I think he'll put up quite a few sacks this year though, more from clean up sacks from Buck and Latu pressure.

 

I really love Latu off the edge. Again, I'm not talking upside here, but playing style wise, everytime I've watched him I see TJ Watt. So twitchy, such polished rush moves. As it is, could end up being a great pairing with him and Paye.

[smittywerb]

On 7/9/2024 at 1:17 AM, Solid84 said:

So, I saw this on twitter today:

I would wish we'd give Lewis a chance over Paye. I know we want to stop the run as well (which is Paye's strength), but I really think stopping the passing game has to be a priority if we want to compete against the top dogs in the AFC.

 

This also shows how poor our defense was a creating pressure. I hope Latu takes off - we need him to!

I can’t remember what thread it was, but I posted some stats regarding our defensive line and Supes had actually came to the conclusion that Lewis should get more pass rush snaps (based on data).  
 

And to be honest, I’m not sure how effective Paye is at stopping the run because he doesn’t show up in a positive way on a lot of these metrics.  Now I’m not saying he sucks, but he’s solid enough to where I think other ends on our team should get some snaps and see what we have.  Is it that Paye is the best run defending end we have and that’s why he gets majority of those snaps over others or are they trying to allow him to develop?

 

Idk, but I was ecstatic that we grabbed Latu because it meant Paye will fall back to a rotational player.  People disagreed with me, which is fine, but I’m sorry, Paye just doesn’t pop off the screen.  It’s the same with Pierce.  Some players just don’t pop and the metrics show that.  
 

We’ll see.  I know Paye has improved every year he’s played.  But in this scheme, we need more.  Hoping that Paye indeeds prove me wrong because then it would mean we have more talent on the line.

[NewColtsFan]

2 hours ago, smittywerb said:

I can’t remember what thread it was, but I posted some stats regarding our defensive line and Supes had actually came to the conclusion that Lewis should get more pass rush snaps (based on data).  
 

And to be honest, I’m not sure how effective Paye is at stopping the run because he doesn’t show up in a positive way on a lot of these metrics.  Now I’m not saying he sucks, but he’s solid enough to where I think other ends on our team should get some snaps and see what we have.  Is it that Paye is the best run defending end we have and that’s why he gets majority of those snaps over others or are they trying to allow him to develop?

 

Idk, but I was ecstatic that we grabbed Latu because it meant Paye will fall back to a rotational player.  People disagreed with me, which is fine, but I’m sorry, Paye just doesn’t pop off the screen.  It’s the same with Pierce.  Some players just don’t pop and the metrics show that.  
 

We’ll see.  I know Paye has improved every year he’s played.  But in this scheme, we need more.  Hoping that Paye indeeds prove me wrong because then it would mean we have more talent on the line.

And yet, didn’t the Colts pick up Paye's 5th year option?   
 

Most posts here complain Paye isn’t a good enough pass rusher.  Now here you are saying he’s not a good enough run defender.   
 

What do the Colts know about Paye that the fan base here does not appear to?

 

 

[smittywerb]

2 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

And yet, didn’t the Colts pick up Paye's 5th year option?   
 

Most posts here complain Paye isn’t a good enough pass rusher.  Now here you are saying he’s not a good enough run defender.   
 

What do the Colts know about Paye that the fan base here does not appear to?

 

 

 

I was on the pick up payes option train.  I’ve actually said on this board I’d want Paye back (at the right price).  So we agree there.
 

In response to what you’ve said, this is what I’m getting at.  I said that Paye was solid against the run and maybe solid is not giving him enough credit, I’ll give you that one.  But what I’m saying is does being just good against the run warrants not giving snaps to other players who have performed better in pass situations?  Despite Payes overall stats improving yearly, his pressure rate has declined in 3 straight years and he played 16 games last year.  Good/solid against the run and above avg against the pass in this scheme is going to standout.  
 

Once again, how good is Paye at the run that we let other defensive ends who have better pressure rates (ie. Lewis) sit on the sideline?  I don’t want this to sound like I’m crapping on qwitty because he’s a solid player.  What I’m saying is that I do think we can use an upgrade and the colts did also.  Now who goes to the sidelines between Ebukam or Paye, that’s for them two to figure out, but my money is on Paye.  
 

So am I saying he’s bad against the run, no.  A bad player, no.  IMO is his run defense good enough to not at least try and see what we have with other DEs who can pass rush better, nope.  

[NewColtsFan]

12 minutes ago, smittywerb said:

 

I was on the pick up payes option train.  I’ve actually said on this board I’d want Paye back (at the right price).  So we agree there.
 

In response to what you’ve said, this is what I’m getting at.  I said that Paye was solid against the run and maybe solid is not giving him enough credit, I’ll give you that one.  But what I’m saying is does being just good against the run warrants not giving snaps to other players who have performed better in pass situations?  Despite Payes overall stats improving yearly, his pressure rate has declined in 3 straight years and he played 16 games last year.  Good/solid against the run and above avg against the pass in this scheme is going to standout.  
 

Once again, how good is Paye at the run that we let other defensive ends who have better pressure rates (ie. Lewis) sit on the sideline?  I don’t want this to sound like I’m crapping on qwitty because he’s a solid player.  What I’m saying is that I do think we can use an upgrade and the colts did also.  Now who goes to the sidelines between Ebukam or Paye, that’s for them two to figure out, but my money is on Paye.  
 

So am I saying he’s bad against the run, no.  A bad player, no.  IMO is his run defense good enough to not at least try and see what we have with other DEs who can pass rush better, nope.  

Well….  The Dodgers did draft Liatu.  So they clearly wanted more DE talent.  
 

And next season (25) I expect all DE’s back.  

 

Liatu, Ebukam, Dayo, Paye and Lewis.  I’d be disappointed if they’re not.  

[AwesomeAustin]

10 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

Well….  The Dodgers did draft Liatu.  So they clearly wanted more DE talent.  
 

And next season (25) I expect all DE’s back.  

 

Liatu, Ebukam, Dayo, Paye and Lewis.  I’d be disappointed if they’re not.  

That has to be one of the most solid DE rotations in the league. No star power(yet) but solid top to bottom. I believe you have mentioned Charlie Partridge multiple times as an addition. I hope he elevates these DE’s 10-20% along with Buckner, Grover and Davis. We have the makings of a dominant DL that excels in all phases including endurance from rotating. I’m really excited to see this line come into their own as the season develops. 

[smittywerb]

14 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

Well….  The Dodgers did draft Liatu.  So they clearly wanted more DE talent.  
 

And next season (25) I expect all DE’s back.  

 

Liatu, Ebukam, Dayo, Paye and Lewis.  I’d be disappointed if they’re not.  

Yeah, don’t get me wrong.  Despite what it may look like, I want Paye back as well lol.  I just believe he’s more suited for a rotational role rather than an every down DE.  

[NewColtsFan]

6 hours ago, AwesomeAustin said:

That has to be one of the most solid DE rotations in the league. No star power(yet) but solid top to bottom. I believe you have mentioned Charlie Partridge multiple times as an addition. I hope he elevates these DE’s 10-20% along with Buckner, Grover and Davis. We have the makings of a dominant DL that excels in all phases including endurance from rotating. I’m really excited to see this line come into their own as the season develops. 

You are correct…. I’m a big Partridge fan.  Have been since he was hired.  And everything I’ve learned about him since makes me even happier that the Colts signed him.   For instance, before Partridge was at Pitt he was at Wisc.   There he turned a skinny walk-on into JJ Watt.  

im excited what he can do to our D lineman. 

[NewColtsFan]

2 hours ago, smittywerb said:

Yeah, don’t get me wrong.  Despite what it may look like, I want Paye back as well lol.  I just believe he’s more suited for a rotational role rather than an every down DE.  

For whatever it’s worth…,

 

Paye’s sacks have gone up every year.  5, 6 and 8 last year.  Paye came out in the last week saying the minimum he expects this year is 10 and he really wants 12-15.   
 

I don’t know if any of that is reasonable because Liatu is going to cut into everyone’s snaps.   But it’s nice for Kwity to be shooting for new career highs.  

[AwesomeAustin]

18 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

You are correct…. I’m a big Partridge fan.  Have been since he was hired.  And everything I’ve learned about him since makes me even happier that the Colts signed him.   For instance, before Partridge was at Pitt he was at Wisc.   There he turned a skinny walk-on into JJ Watt.  

im excited what he can do to our D lineman. 

Would it be much of a bold prediction to think they can break the team record for sacks again?   
 

When I was looking at all time team sack records I saw the 2022 Eagles had 70, which was two away from the 84 Bears. I knew the Eagles had a great line that year but didnt realize it produced that much. Almost makes 51 seem low but that is still 3 a game. 

[TheNewGuy]

2 minutes ago, AwesomeAustin said:

Would it be much of a bold prediction to think they can break the team record for sacks again?   
 

When I was looking at all time team sack records I saw the 2022 Eagles had 70, which was two away from the 84 Bears. I knew the Eagles had a great line that year but didnt realize it produced that much. Almost makes 51 seem low but that is still 3 a game. 

With the additions of Latu and Davis, I could see the Indianapolis Colt record (51) being surpassed. The Baltimore Colt record was 59 in 1975 in 14 games. I would love it if they could surpass that number.

[AwesomeAustin]

4 minutes ago, TheNewGuy said:

With the additions of Latu and Davis, I could see the Indianapolis Colt record (51) being surpassed. The Baltimore Colt record was 59 in 1975 in 14 games. I would love it if they could surpass that number.

60 was the number I had in my mind for a goal over the next few years. Thats a big increase in production but within the 10-20% boost I’m hoping Partridge can give coaching these guys up. With the addition of those two players you mentioned and of course health, it is possible. 
 

If the Colts DL can produce close to that and we have solid development from AR, this team has a real shot at making the divisional round of the playoffs and the division. I really see that happening in the next 2-3 years. To me that is a successful season bc once you are to the 2nd round of the playoffs, every team is capable of winning it all. Make a conference championship and we start comparing to other years of top 10 Colts teams. 

[throwing BBZ]

1 hour ago, AwesomeAustin said:

60 was the number I had in my mind for a goal over the next few years. Thats a big increase in production but within the 10-20% boost I’m hoping Partridge can give coaching these guys up. With the addition of those two players you mentioned and of course health, it is possible. 
 

If the Colts DL can produce close to that and we have solid development from AR, this team has a real shot at making the divisional round of the playoffs and the division. I really see that happening in the next 2-3 years. To me that is a successful season bc once you are to the 2nd round of the playoffs, every team is capable of winning it all. Make a conference championship and we start comparing to other years of top 10 Colts teams. 

 

  We should have serious concern that we don't have the speed to cover a high end passing attack, to beat the top ten teams. And our LB's did blitz some last season and were totally ineffective. 

 Our back seven is lacking and will be problematic.

 Ballard who provides the talent, Gus, and our ancient LB and DB coaches are deserving serious scrutinization this season.

 Optimism through Blue lenses glasses, it's that time of year.

[Dingus McGirt]

20 hours ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

  We should have serious concern that we don't have the speed to cover a high end passing attack, to beat the top ten teams. And our LB's did blitz some last season and were totally ineffective. 

 Our back seven is lacking and will be problematic.

 Ballard who provides the talent, Gus, and our ancient LB and DB coaches are deserving serious scrutinization this season.

 Optimism through Blue lenses glasses, it's that time of year.

I had to check on that word.  It does exist.  Well done.  

[CR91]

Like I said in a different thread, Paye is the "Erik Walden" of the defense. Nothing flashy, but he does what's asked of him and he does it at a high level