Colts have the 15th pick in the draft. (MERGE)

[Dobbinblitz]

11 minutes ago, stitches said:

I think you are underestimating Worthy's WR technical proficiency stuff. I think he's better route runner than given credit for. I think he has very sharp and crisp cuts in and out of his routes. I think even thought he's small, he actually plays much more phisical than his size would suggest.  I posted a graph a week or so ago that showed him being the receiver with most separation in this draft.  I think a ton of his problems and limitations stem from just... being small. And you will have to work around those and that's why I have him as a second rounder and not 1st... but.. yeah. If he gets jammed, he's done... if the defender is there with him at the catch point he's probably not coming away with the ball in that contested ball situation. You will have to move him across the formation, you will have to create free releases for him, you will pretty much never want to put him at X where defenders can put their hands on him before he's even made a step or two... but I think he can be really dangerous and dynamic player if you have a creative offensive coach that can use his strengths and try not to put him in compromising positions where his weaknesses are highlighted. IF we draft him, I have no doubt Steichen will have a good plan and idea about how to use him.

The reason I could buy into the Worthy selection is because it would go a long way to help keep defenses much more honest than they have been with the Colts Offense compared to the recent past. It would also help both Taylor and Pittman flourish further along with the threat of a big armed QB under Center who is mobile. 

[cdgacoltsfan]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

They wouldn't even agree to pay his full salary.

They traded with the Jets...why would they if they don't have to?

[csmopar]

43 minutes ago, Dobbinblitz said:

Yet another team looking to move up in round 1. If Ballard is intent on trading back, he should have plenty of suitors.

 

From the Athletic:

Chiefs eager to trade up in first round

KANSAS CITY, Mo. — His plan for the NFL Draft remains the same. Brett Veach, the Kansas City Chiefs’ general manager, wants to make another deal, a splashy trade that he hopes will allow the reigning champions to acquire another star player.

 

Their next 5 firsts and i might consider it

[stitches]

7 minutes ago, Stephen said:

I'm not impressed  with those guys they don't  pass the eye test

I really like AD Mitchell's talent. He has some exceptional reps... he gets open all the time... when he actually decides to run his route to the end. 

 

And Burton is pretty good too... he's just a headcase of some sort it seems. He's changed like 7-8 schools since high school... 

[Dobbinblitz]

1 minute ago, csmopar said:

Their next 5 firsts and i might consider it

I agree, this year #15 is an excellent position for the Colts; with the way the draft is expected to fall. Moving  that far back to #32 would be disastrous considering the options that should be available.

[richard pallo]

1 hour ago, Dobbinblitz said:

Yet another team looking to move up in round 1. If Ballard is intent on trading back, he should have plenty of suitors.

 

From the Athletic:

Chiefs eager to trade up in first round

KANSAS CITY, Mo. — His plan for the NFL Draft remains the same. Brett Veach, the Kansas City Chiefs’ general manager, wants to make another deal, a splashy trade that he hopes will allow the reigning champions to acquire another star player.

 

That’s no surprise. The great teams want to remain great.  You don’t do that drafting at the back of the 1st rd.  You move up for talent not back.  Expect the Bills to move up to.  Let’s hope we don’t play into their hands.  Give up a chance to acquire great for good.

[Dobbinblitz]

21 minutes ago, stitches said:

I really like AD Mitchell's talent. He has some exceptional reps... he gets open all the time... when he actually decides to run his route to the end. 

 

And Burton is pretty good too... he's just a headcase of some sort it seems. He's changed like 7-8 schools since high school... 

No doubt Ballard likes Mitchell's 9.98 RAS. I also recently read where Bob McGinn a longtime beat writer for the Packers spoke to scouts about Mitchell. Some Scouts raised concerns to him about his Maturity, Coachability, and his Health. ( I also read His Diabetes may have played a role in some of this.) One scout said he almost uncoachable. I did not think he would be up there on Ballard's board.

[cdgacoltsfan]

23 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

That’s no surprise. The great teams want to remain great.  You don’t do that drafting at the back of the 1st rd.  You move up for talent not back.  Expect the Bills to move up to.  Let’s hope we don’t play into their hands.  Give up a chance to acquire great for good.

Ok Kent Sterling

[krunk]

Currently we do need a WR like what Worthy brings if the Colts got him. A guy who can take the quick hitters, crossers, screens, RPO passes and get great Run After Catch. A different type of explosive plays. They don't all have to be bombs.

[Stephen]

1 hour ago, stitches said:

I really like AD Mitchell's talent. He has some exceptional reps... he gets open all the time... when he actually decides to run his route to the end. 

 

And Burton is pretty good too... he's just a headcase of some sort it seems. He's changed like 7-8 schools since high school... 

I like his route  running, but for 4.3 guy he plays slow to Me. I feel like he should be running  away from guys with that kind of speed. Also he is supposed  to be 6,2 but he seems shorter  than that.

[Stephen]

1 hour ago, Dobbinblitz said:

No doubt Ballard likes Mitchell's 9.98 RAS. I also recently read where Bob McGinn a longtime beat writer for the Packers spoke to scouts about Mitchell. Some Scouts raised concerns to him about his Maturity, Coachability, and his Health. ( I also read His Diabetes may have played a role in some of this.) One scout said he almost uncoachable. I did not think he would be up there on Ballard's board.

Yea I'd prefer to pass on him for Brian thomas,  worthy.

[Dobbinblitz]

The Cardinals have been in discussions about moving No. 4. They have spoken to three teams about moving down, SI.com’s Albert Breer notes, adding a fourth club is expected to inquire about the selection.

Likewise Tony Pauline was reporting that the Patriots could very well move the 3rd overall pickup and the select Penix. There are those within the Patriots facility that are pushing for Penix. They do not want to move past  #13  where it is believed the Raiders would take Penix.

 

All this is good news for the Colts as there is a lot of noise that Penix and Nix continue to move up draft boards.

[Moosejawcolt]

5 hours ago, Stephen said:

Worthy pair with Richardson  arm would be a nightmare  for rest of nfl. If Chiefs get him the entire  league  will regret letting  it happen.

I don't think Worthy is a good fit for Richardson's skill set. Think tall with a large catch radius for Richardson to be successful. I don't think u pair a smurf wr with a qb who may have accuracy issues. That's just me

[Stephen]

2 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

I don't think Worthy is a good fit for Richardson's skill set. Think tall with a large catch radius for Richardson to be successful. I don't think u pair a smurf wr with a qb who may have accuracy issues. That's just me

Richardson  accuracy  on deep balls is his strength.  Hence why you pair an elite deep threat in worthy.

[stitches]

18 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Richardson  accuracy  on deep balls is his strength.  Hence why you pair an elite deep threat in worthy.

Yeah... Richardson needs players who can separate and who can get open deep. IMO "give the inaccurate QB a contested catch receiver with large catch radius" is one of the tropes that hasn't proven to work well. Contested catches have about 50-55% success rate even with the best of contested catch receivers and with relatively accurate QBs... now if you think AR's accuracy is not good, drop that rate even more. The best way to give a relatively inaccurate QB better chance to complete passes is to give him a WR who separates and and who is open so the QB would have more of a margin for error to throw the ball a little behind or ahead or a little higher or lower than ideal. (we are not talking about uncatchable balls here... those will be uncatchable for anyone really). In that regard, one thing I would agree about is - we need WRs who have good hands and have good ball skills.

 

And this is ignoring that AR has indeed been pretty good with his accuracy on passes at intermediate and long range. His biggest problem coming into the league was the short stuff and he was already showing improvements in that deparment before he got injured. 

 

And Worthy is the WR who created the most separation from anybody in this draft : 

 

[stitches]

I was thinking a bit about what Ballard said in that clip from "Behind the Colts", about "he's not going to get much bigger". No idea if he was talking about Worthy... but if he is... he's right. Whether Worthy ends up playing at 165 or 176... this is still extremely small and light. Whether he's in the 1st percentile or 5th percentile of athlete's in weight in the league, this doesn't change the type of player and type of worries you would have about him with any significance. So... in a way, I kind of find that conversation a bit pointless. IMO the question should be - okay. he is small... and he will always be small. Can we work with that? And can we live with the risk of injury for that small of a player? And the answer can be no here... I'm not saying we necessarily need to take that risk. 

[MikeCurtis]

36 minutes ago, stitches said:

I was thinking a bit about what Ballard said in that clip from "Behind the Colts", about "he's not going to get much bigger". No idea if he was talking about Worthy... but if he is... he's right. Whether Worthy ends up playing at 165 or 176... this is still extremely small and light. Whether he's in the 1st percentile or 5th percentile of athlete's in weight in the league, this doesn't change the type of player and type of worries you would have about him with any significance. So... in a way, I kind of find that conversation a bit pointless. IMO the question should be - okay. he is small... and he will always be small. Can we work with that? And can we live with the risk of injury for that small of a player? And the answer can be no here... I'm not saying we necessarily need to take that risk. 

You wonder how many NFL hits the guy can take

 

I think he is an extreme liability when we run the ball as well

 

 

 

Brian Thomas or Latu with 15th for me

 

 

[stitches]

15 minutes ago, MikeCurtis said:

You wonder how many NFL hits the guy can take

 

I think he is an extreme liability when we run the ball as well

 

 

 

Brian Thomas or Latu with 15th for me

 

 

This is a legit question that the Colts should ask themselves. Worthy left 2 of the games he played this last year because of big hits by defenders. Now he didn't miss significant playing time because of it, but I think it's a reasonable question to ask, especially when you see that his instinct is actually not to slide down or go out of bounds but to fight for extra yardage. 

[Stephen]

3 hours ago, stitches said:

Yeah... Richardson needs players who can separate and who can get open deep. IMO "give the inaccurate QB a contested catch receiver with large catch radius" is one of the tropes that hasn't proven to work well. Contested catches have about 50-55% success rate even with the best of contested catch receivers and with relatively accurate QBs... now if you think AR's accuracy is not good, drop that rate even more. The best way to give a relatively inaccurate QB better chance to complete passes is to give him a WR who separates and and who is open so the QB would have more of a margin for error to throw the ball a little behind or ahead or a little higher or lower than ideal. (we are not talking about uncatchable balls here... those will be uncatchable for anyone really). In that regard, one thing I would agree about is - we need WRs who have good hands and have good ball skills.

 

And this is ignoring that AR has indeed been pretty good with his accuracy on passes at intermediate and long range. His biggest problem coming into the league was the short stuff and he was already showing improvements in that deparment before he got injured. 

 

And Worthy is the WR who created the most separation from anybody in this draft : 

 

Not to mention  as bad as ewers threw him the ball  at times he knows how to adjust to badly throw footballs

[Stephen]

17 minutes ago, MikeCurtis said:

You wonder how many NFL hits the guy can take

 

I think he is an extreme liability when we run the ball as well

 

 

 

Brian Thomas or Latu with 15th for me

 

 

Unless they draft both brian thomas  and worthy

[Stephen]

18 minutes ago, MikeCurtis said:

You wonder how many NFL hits the guy can take

 

I think he is an extreme liability when we run the ball as well

 

 

 

Brian Thomas or Latu with 15th for me

 

 

He is a pretty good returner as well like t.y. Hilton  2.0 because  he is faster than hilton

[stitches]

4 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Unless they draft both brian thomas  and worthy

I don't see that happening. I think they are somewhat redundant. 

[MikeCurtis]

55 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Unless they draft both brian thomas  and worthy

I am with you on Brian Thomas, he would be a great pickup.

 

HE scares the DCs that we would face

 

Someone will take Worthy in late round 1 or early 2

(I hope its not us)

[MikeCurtis]

58 minutes ago, Stephen said:

He is a pretty good returner as well like t.y. Hilton  2.0 because  he is faster than hilton

Maybe

 

Hilton had a bit more muscle on shorter frame

 

I just see Worthy as medical tent dweller......... 

 

[ColtStrong2013]

1 hour ago, stitches said:

I was thinking a bit about what Ballard said in that clip from "Behind the Colts", about "he's not going to get much bigger". No idea if he was talking about Worthy... but if he is... he's right. Whether Worthy ends up playing at 165 or 176... this is still extremely small and light. Whether he's in the 1st percentile or 5th percentile of athlete's in weight in the league, this doesn't change the type of player and type of worries you would have about him with any significance. So... in a way, I kind of find that conversation a bit pointless. IMO the question should be - okay. he is small... and he will always be small. Can we work with that? And can we live with the risk of injury for that small of a player? And the answer can be no here... I'm not saying we necessarily need to take that risk. 

what is interesting on that comment was how intense Ballard was in arguing with Jamie about it. He was convicted in his belief that he didn’t think he would get bigger. To where it was almost embarrassing to Jamie. 
 

here’s my thought on that- it was for the camera… it’s a smokescreen. Chris Ballard has talked (multiple times) and this is a fact- ill see if I can find a link to a video where he talks about it, but I have seen it several times- he has talked about how guys naturally get bigger as they get older. Where it’s expected as they get into the league. 
 

So my feeling on that comment is that it could very well be just a smoke screen. Like a, “cut the tape- sorry to embarrass you on film Jamie, good job selling it- I didn’t actually mean any of that.” 

[DougDew]

15 hours ago, CheezyColt said:

I need the sad/crying react emoji because getting no receivers or corners in this draft would be devastating lol.

DeJean would improve the secondary, Cooper would improve the underneath coverage, and Kneeland would improve the pass rush.  The RT from Yale would improve the blocking, which would protect the franchise and make JT a better runner. 

 

It comes together in the end.

[stitches]

(ooops, wrong thread... please delete mods)

[Stephen]

7 hours ago, stitches said:

Yeah... Richardson needs players who can separate and who can get open deep. IMO "give the inaccurate QB a contested catch receiver with large catch radius" is one of the tropes that hasn't proven to work well. Contested catches have about 50-55% success rate even with the best of contested catch receivers and with relatively accurate QBs... now if you think AR's accuracy is not good, drop that rate even more. The best way to give a relatively inaccurate QB better chance to complete passes is to give him a WR who separates and and who is open so the QB would have more of a margin for error to throw the ball a little behind or ahead or a little higher or lower than ideal. (we are not talking about uncatchable balls here... those will be uncatchable for anyone really). In that regard, one thing I would agree about is - we need WRs who have good hands and have good ball skills.

 

And this is ignoring that AR has indeed been pretty good with his accuracy on passes at intermediate and long range. His biggest problem coming into the league was the short stuff and he was already showing improvements in that deparment before he got injured. 

 

And Worthy is the WR who created the most separation from anybody in this draft : 

 

The other guy Pearsall  is his old teammate wouldn't  be surprised  if we pick him

[Superman]

5 hours ago, stitches said:

I was thinking a bit about what Ballard said in that clip from "Behind the Colts", about "he's not going to get much bigger". No idea if he was talking about Worthy... but if he is... he's right. Whether Worthy ends up playing at 165 or 176... this is still extremely small and light. Whether he's in the 1st percentile or 5th percentile of athlete's in weight in the league, this doesn't change the type of player and type of worries you would have about him with any significance. So... in a way, I kind of find that conversation a bit pointless. IMO the question should be - okay. he is small... and he will always be small. Can we work with that? And can we live with the risk of injury for that small of a player? And the answer can be no here... I'm not saying we necessarily need to take that risk. 

 

This is it, and that's how I saw Ballard's pushback -- he's always going to be small. So what do you do with that? Whether they were talking about Worthy or someone else, I don't think Ballard's point was that he needs to put on 10-12 pounds and he won't be able to. I think the point was you can't count on that, so judge his body as it is now.

 

As for Worthy, he's not much smaller than Josh Downs. At a certain point, small is small. If you draft a guy like that, you need to be comfortable with his size, not betting that he's going to get bigger.

[ColtStrong2013]

25 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

This is it, and that's how I saw Ballard's pushback -- he's always going to be small. So what do you do with that? Whether they were talking about Worthy or someone else, I don't think Ballard's point was that he needs to put on 10-12 pounds and he won't be able to. I think the point was you can't count on that, so judge his body as it is now.

 

As for Worthy, he's not much smaller than Josh Downs. At a certain point, small is small. If you draft a guy like that, you need to be comfortable with his size, not betting that he's going to get bigger.

I went back to last years comments about downs post draft. It was clear that Steichen preferred a variety of receiver types on the roster and they liked downs for bringing a different type/element. 
not sure they would want another small receiver. 

[Stephen]

15 minutes ago, ColtStrong2013 said:

I went back to last years comments about downs post draft. It was clear that Steichen preferred a variety of receiver types on the roster and they liked downs for bringing a different type/element. 
not sure they would want another small receiver. 

Well three big in dulin pierce and pittman. so another small cant hurt. As long as they can play

[Superman]

Just now, ColtStrong2013 said:

I went back to last years comments about downs post draft. It was clear that Steichen preferred a variety of receiver types on the roster and they liked downs for bringing a different type/element. 
not sure they would want another small receiver. 

 

I don't know whether they would or not, but I'm just saying I don't think there's a blanket objection to drafting a smallish WR.

[throwing BBZ]

42 minutes ago, ColtStrong2013 said:

I went back to last years comments about downs post draft. It was clear that Steichen preferred a variety of receiver types on the roster and they liked downs for bringing a different type/element. 
not sure they would want another small receiver. 

 

 Worthy would of course run some crossers, but he would do mostly what Pierce did. Pierce led the league in go patterns. Doing it we saw that his low 4.4 speed did not allow him to blow by people. 

 Worthy would have Tyreke + speed to put the fear in a D and require safety help. That would boad well for all other aspects of our offensive attack. We could do worse. Smith from Philly is sleight. 6' 170 

 Little Downs operates on quick hitters so often between the numbers. That is the hitting zone. He survived nicely.

[Moosejawcolt]

1 minute ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 Worthy would of course run some crossers, but he would do mostly what Pierce did. Pierce led the league in go patterns. Doing it we saw that his low 4.4 speed did not allow him to blow by people. 

 Worthy would have Tyreke + speed to put the fear in a D and require safety help. That would boad well for all other aspects of our offensive attack. We could do worse. Smith from Philly is sleight.

Does Worthy's speed show up on tape? Just going on history, I have yet to see one player who ran a 4.2 fourty have even a decent career. It is an awe stat but does it translate to being a good football player? Based just on history, I am not expecting much of a career for Worthy but he could be the first to break the 4.2 curse, lol

[richard pallo]

Since we are just killing time at this point here’s a trade idea to kick around.  Trade our entire draft ,all seven picks, to the Cardinals and draft Harrison.  Ala the Ricky Williams trade years ago.  Point being we have all 25 starters returning and the depth right now is good actually for the most part.  Then we use UDFA along with the waiver wire at cutdowns and our cap space to sign a FA or two to supplement our current roster for this year.  That’s a lot of draft capital for moving back 11 spots and we get Harrison.  Seems like a win win to me.  Maybe offer up Pierce as well if needed.  Given our current roster circumstances I think it could work.

[Moosejawcolt]

1 minute ago, richard pallo said:

Since we are just killing time at this point here’s a trade idea to kick around.  Trade our entire draft ,all seven picks, to the Cardinals and draft Harrison.  Ala the Ricky Williams trade years ago.  Point being we have all 25 starters returning and the depth right now is good actually for the most part.  Then we use UDFA along with the waiver wire at cutdowns and our cap space to sign a FA or two to supplement our current roster for this year.  That’s a lot of draft capital for moving back 11 spots and we get Harrison.  Seems like a win win to me.  Maybe offer up Pierce as well if needed.  Given our current roster circumstances I think it could work.

Sure we may score 32 points a game but I bet we give up the same on defence. Defense needs talent big time. Need a starting corner, free safety, and RDE.

2 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

Since we are just killing time at this point here’s a trade idea to kick around.  Trade our entire draft ,all seven picks, to the Cardinals and draft Harrison.  Ala the Ricky Williams trade years ago.  Point being we have all 25 starters returning and the depth right now is good actually for the most part.  Then we use UDFA along with the waiver wire at cutdowns and our cap space to sign a FA or two to supplement our current roster for this year.  That’s a lot of draft capital for moving back 11 spots and we get Harrison.  Seems like a win win to me.  Maybe offer up Pierce as well if needed.  Given our current roster circumstances I think it could work.

And even if the Colts offered all 7 picks, it wouldn't be enough lol

[NewColtsFan]

28 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I don't know whether they would or not, but I'm just saying I don't think there's a blanket objection to drafting a smallish WR.

FWIW:   In his meeting with the local media last week, Steichen was asked what qualities he valued most in a receiver.   His first answer came fast:   Quickness.  That really jumped out at me.  

[Dobbinblitz]

1 hour ago, ColtStrong2013 said:

I went back to last years comments about downs post draft. It was clear that Steichen preferred a variety of receiver types on the roster and they liked downs for bringing a different type/element. 
not sure they would want another small receiver. 

Regarding Worthy -4.21 Speed has to be accounted for by a defense whether the ball is coming his way or not. So does that potentially create more opportunities for other Colt offensive playmakers.  I would say yes.

 

I am sure the Colts have taken note of the impact of Tank Dell 5'10 165ibs (709 yds) on the Texans offense in his rookie year. If it helps take advantage of AR's physical tools and unlocks part of the Colts offensive playbook I am all for it.

 

He is a quick twitch football player and not just a track guy. He is third all time in longhorn history with TD catches in 26 of 39 games, and has caught a pass in all 39 games.

[Superman]

44 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Does Worthy's speed show up on tape? Just going on history, I have yet to see one player who ran a 4.2 fourty have even a decent career. It is an awe stat but does it translate to being a good football player? Based just on history, I am not expecting much of a career for Worthy but he could be the first to break the 4.2 curse, lol

 

There aren't a lot of them to talk about. Of the handful of WR prospects in the sub 4.3 range, Henry Ruggs is probably the best player. He ran 4.27, and was doing well halfway through his second season, but we know how that ended.

 

The best overall player in that range is Champ Bailey, who ran 4.28 back in 1999, and had a great career. Second best is Chris Johnson, who ran a 4.24, and had a strong career as well. So being fast isn't a curse, nor is it disqualifying.

 

We already know that being fast doesn't make him a good player.

[stitches]

13 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

There aren't a lot of them to talk about. Of the handful of WR prospects in the sub 4.3 range, Henry Ruggs is probably the best player. He ran 4.27, and was doing well halfway through his second season, but we know how that ended.

 

The best overall player in that range is Champ Bailey, who ran 4.28 back in 1999, and had a great career. Second best is Chris Johnson, who ran a 4.24, and had a strong career as well. So being fast isn't a curse, nor is it disqualifying.

 

We already know that being fast doesn't make him a good player.

Tyreek Hill ran 4.29 at his pro day... No idea what Waddle would have ran, he was still recovering from his injury that he returned to play in the playoffs with. Possible he runs somewhere in that range too? 

 

The problem is... there really aren't that many players who have ran so fast so the sample is not big. 

 

If we expand to other positions... you mentioned Champ Bailey and Chris Johnson. Tariq Woolen ran 4.26... which for his size is quite possibly the most impressive run of all of them.