The role of the qB.

[DougDew]

1 hour ago, Smonroe said:

 

Maybe because you're complaining about it being boring.  Like I said, no one is forcing you to watch it.

Why wouldn't I watch it?  The other stuff about football besides the boring low skilled but athletic guy taking snaps is interesting.  Its not like I focus on just one player when I watch sports.  There are many things going on at the same time.

 

But running QBs in general might take it to the point of being unwatchable.  If all 22 players are simply athletes running, jumping, and dodging, it can get kind of repetitive. 

[jvan1973]

51 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Why wouldn't I watch it?  The other stuff about football besides the boring low skilled but athletic guy taking snaps is interesting.  Its not like I focus on just one player when I watch sports.  There are many things going on at the same time.

 

But running QBs in general might take it to the point of being unwatchable.  If all 22 players are simply athletes running, jumping, and dodging, it can get kind of repetitive. 

I guess you don't enjoy college football.  

[hoosierhawk]

2 hours ago, DougDew said:

Another thing about those teams.  The receivers were blockers.  They had a fullback who was basically a dedicated blocker too.  Only the QB and the halfback were runners.  2 out of 11 players touched the ball, basically.  Yes, they surprised defenses with a fullback trap play, and one receiver was a wing back like an APB that lined up on the LOS, but he was 50% blocker.

 

Having that kind of interesting running game requires much more devotion to blocking than what NFL fans will tolerate and probably what can be achieved in the NFL.

 

If fans want receivers to gather receiving yards during a season, TEs too, and not have a lead blocker, then NFL offenses will always be about passing first and foremost, with a rushing QB being just a surprise thing that gains yards once in a while.  JMO. 

You are kinda all over the place. you don't want running QBs in the NFL but yet you indicate that you loved the old college FB games between NE and OK because only 2 guys touched the ball, the QB and the running back, (The old NE vs OU running-based games were great, but in order to have that kind of offense, the receivers were blockers.). But now if the NFL goes to running QBs the game will be bad. ( To the extent that the NFL is regressing back to athleticism dominating the game from the QB position, it's a de-evolution of the sport.  Sweep left, sweep right, up the gut, throw deep after one read.  College football is probably 50% there.). 

You quit watching basketball because they scored too many points(You must think that scoring a lot of points via athleticism is interesting.  A lot of sports are kinda being dumbed down that way for viewers just like you apparently. I stopped watching basketball for good about 20 years ago.) but then I think you're saying with running QBs we will be scoring fewer points with the 

( Sweep left, sweep right, up the gut, throw deep after one read.). But then again I guess I don't know what you are really trying to say.
 

[compuls1v3]

12 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

9 qbs had more than 4000 yards passing last year.   Mahomes had over 5000

 

Joe Montana and Troy Aikmen, never had a 4000 yard season 

Rules are now heavily favored towards passing too.

[Nickster]

15 hours ago, VikingsFanInChennai said:

to be fair, soccer is or at least used to be very exciting to watch until the players, coaches and teams started making driving and feigning as an art. 

 

Well, the game is not an art anymore, and there are many wonderful sports and games (online, video, board, cards) that are more interesting and artistic than soccer right now. 

If you ever enjoyed soccer, watch Manchester City’s Erling Haaland today.

 He’s pretty much the best team sport athlete in the world and he’s only 22.  
 

 

City and Real Madrid are maestros.  Unless Madrid parks the bus today you will see plenty of beautiful soccer from both teams. 
 

I agree on the diving.  I wish they’d pull out more simulation cards.

[azcolt]

On 5/16/2023 at 5:31 AM, DougDew said:

The position being dumbed down to focus on athleticism.  Its simpler. Yawn.  Partly because colleges go for the money/win now attitude, and players leave for the money early, so colleges don't have the time to teach QBing anymore.  

 

The position started long ago as a muscle bound running game, then it evolved into something involving more precision and elegance.  Now its regressing back into the musclebound athletic running game again.  Yawn.

Did you forget the #1 pick in the draft was one of the shortest, lightest qb picks in at least the last 50 years. Brains still matter. As does good health.

 

Teams will still need to protect their franchise qb’s, especially given the much longer season than years ago. A handful will run the ball a lot but most will avoid hard hits. We only need to recall Andrew Luck congratulating tacklers for hard hits on him in his first few seasons — that he should have avoided — to remember why that’s probably a good idea.

[Nickster]

19 hours ago, DougDew said:

Another thing about those teams.  The receivers were blockers.  They had a fullback who was basically a dedicated blocker too.  Only the QB and the halfback were runners.  2 out of 11 players touched the ball, basically.  Yes, they surprised defenses with a fullback trap play, and one receiver was a wing back like an APB that lined up on the LOS, but he was 50% blocker.

 

Having that kind of interesting running game requires much more devotion to blocking than what NFL fans will tolerate and probably what can be achieved in the NFL.

 

If fans want receivers to gather receiving yards during a season, TEs too, and not have a lead blocker, then NFL offenses will always be about passing first and foremost, with a rushing QB being just a surprise thing that gains yards once in a while.  JMO. 

 

OK ran Wishbone triple option almost exclusively The belly play between the guards in the triple option is very important for wishbone option attacks.  I am not old enough to remember exactly what was going in the NE/OK heyday, but the way I think remember it is it was a true triple option ie. the FB Dive/Belly was the key to the offense from OK.   At least that is what the theory of the play dictates if I'm misremembering.  If you don't threaten the FB Dive, then the MIKEs and SSs would simply cheat outside the guards making the triple option much less effective when they don't account for the FB dive.  It's almost like having an extra defender or two on the field if the FB dive isn't the first priority of the defense.   So I'm not sure the 2 of 11 thing is what I recall OK doing.  The 1st option to the FB is the key to the whole thing the way I understand it. 

 

I was reading about NE running it out of the I and FB dives were almost always called so it wasn't a true triple option and that they did other stuff. 

[DougDew]

15 hours ago, hoosierhawk said:

You are kinda all over the place. you don't want running QBs in the NFL but yet you indicate that you loved the old college FB games between NE and OK because only 2 guys touched the ball, the QB and the running back, (The old NE vs OU running-based games were great, but in order to have that kind of offense, the receivers were blockers.). But now if the NFL goes to running QBs the game will be bad. ( To the extent that the NFL is regressing back to athleticism dominating the game from the QB position, it's a de-evolution of the sport.  Sweep left, sweep right, up the gut, throw deep after one read.  College football is probably 50% there.). 

You quit watching basketball because they scored too many points(You must think that scoring a lot of points via athleticism is interesting.  A lot of sports are kinda being dumbed down that way for viewers just like you apparently. I stopped watching basketball for good about 20 years ago.) but then I think you're saying with running QBs we will be scoring fewer points with the 

( Sweep left, sweep right, up the gut, throw deep after one read.). But then again I guess I don't know what you are really trying to say.
 

I enjoyed watching college football teams running a college offense rather than college football teams trying to run a pro offense.  And big plays made in the college game is exciting to see.   Pro offense require much more timing and precision in the passing game. and college students inherently don't execute that as well.  

 

Another sport, Little League Baseball.  I love it for what it is.  But usually it comes down to the team that wins is the team that commits the fewest errors.  Fun in its own way, but that level of incompetence is difficult to watch when the players are older and professional or trying to be professionals.

 

I like execution of precise offenses, and execution of smart defenses in response.  A high scoring game, IMO, means defenses are outmatched and probably incompetent compared to the defenses, so high scoring games by their nature are not that much fun to watch.  Back and forth up the field or on the court is as boring as watching tennis.  JMO.

 

So the idea that our professional QBs are going to look more like college QBs means to me that the passing game is going to be much less complex, and much more about athleticism making plays off structure.  People like to watch Mahomes.  Personally, I root for a defender taking out a knee every time he tries his *.  Which will probably happen to AR when any defender has a good opportunity.

 

Bill Polian used to say that you have to bring a certain level of physicality to the game, but, the game is won by executing a game of precision better than the other team, and not because one guy being a better athlete than the other.  The latter being a big yawn.

[CheezyColt]

9 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Personally, I root for a defender taking out a knee every time he tries his *. 

Sigh...

[stitches]

The role of the QB is to move the offense and score points efficiently. From then on we can all have our own preferences for style and flair of the offense, but those IMO are secondary to the primary goals and role of the QB. 

[DougDew]

52 minutes ago, Nickster said:

 

OK ran Wishbone triple option almost exclusively The belly play between the guards in the triple option is very important for wishbone option attacks.  I am not old enough to remember exactly what was going in the NE/OK heyday, but the way I think remember it is it was a true triple option ie. the FB Dive/Belly was the key to the offense from OK.   At least that is what the theory of the play dictates if I'm misremembering.  If you don't threaten the FB Dive, then the MIKEs and SSs would simply cheat outside the guards making the triple option much less effective when they don't account for the FB dive.  It's almost like having an extra defender or two on the field if the FB dive isn't the first priority of the defense.   So I'm not sure the 2 of 11 thing is what I recall OK doing.  The 1st option to the FB is the key to the whole thing the way I understand it. 

 

I was reading about NE running it out of the I and FB dives were almost always called so it wasn't a true triple option and that they did other stuff. 

Well, my history has various ties to the Husker program, so it was a staple for me in the 70s. 80s, and 90s.

 

Yes, as much as those teams got credit for the splash option play, it was the runs up the gut that were the key to their offenses.  Their FBs were the key.

 

OU had the FB dive, but the key was that every running play started with the same handoff motion to the FB.  Either the QB handed it off or he kept it to then run sideways...sort of like an NFL Read-Option.  Defenses did not know where the ball was going, either up the gut or around the end or to which halfback until OU got a few steps on them.  Hand off to the FB, keep it, or pitch it outside.  Triple option.  For OU, it was 4 players carrying the ball, and the TE was the most frequent target of passing plays (maybe 3 or 4 per game)

 

Nebraska's bread and butter play was the up the gut pitch isolation play to the I back.  QB turned and pitched......not waited for the I back to come to the LOS...but pitched the ball back to the I back.  FB lead through the hole.  This pitch back also allowed better concealment of the traditional pitch around the end.  Up the gut or around the side started the same way.  Osborne always said that NE was a power running game, with the option play developed as an alternative to the pass because of the harsh wind and weather in NE.  (I thought that was a nonsense reason, it was probably because of recruiting challenges to get a drop back guy to play in the weather).  From that, a bunch of different plays were developed, and as he got faster players, they contended for the national championship....and the teams who prepared against pro style offenses just never saw that level of sophistication in the running game and blocking schemes.  

 

But yeah, for NE it was basically the QB (Tommie Frazier) with the option or the I back (Lawrence Phillips) with the Iso-pitch or wide-pitch play.  2 players.  The other guys blocked and some of them carried it or caught it on the other plays designed to play off of the success of those two positions.  

 

The blocking FB was the key.  Interestingly, teams figured out that if the DL could stop the FB from getting to his man, the running game failed.  

 

FB was the key to the running game, and the Colts or many teams don't even have a FB.  That's why I have always said that if you don't have a FB, you're not a serious running team.  Two TE's...LOL.  You're a passing team that succeeds with the run as a counter balance to your pass first offense.   The NFL has phased out the FB as it has become a passing league.

 

Good luck to the Colts with AR or to any run first team in the NFL.  The NFL running game is a different thing.

 

41 minutes ago, CheezyColt said:

Sigh...

Not ruin the knee, but tackle him that way.

[2006Coltsbestever]

53 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Well, my history has various ties to the Husker program, so it was a staple for me in the 70s. 80s, and 90s.

 

Yes, as much as those teams got credit for the splash option play, it was the runs up the gut that were the key to their offenses.  Their FBs were the key.

 

OU had the FB dive, but the key was that every running play started with the same handoff motion to the FB.  Either the QB handed it off or he kept it to then run sideways...sort of like an NFL Read-Option.  Defenses did not know where the ball was going, either up the gut or around the end or to which halfback until OU got a few steps on them.  Hand off to the FB, keep it, or pitch it outside.  Triple option.  For OU, it was 4 players carrying the ball, and the TE was the most frequent target of passing plays (maybe 3 or 4 per game)

 

Nebraska's bread and butter play was the up the gut pitch isolation play to the I back.  QB turned and pitched......not waited for the I back to come to the LOS...but pitched the ball back to the I back.  FB lead through the hole.  This pitch back also allowed better concealment of the traditional pitch around the end.  Up the gut or around the side started the same way.  Osborne always said that NE was a power running game, with the option play developed as an alternative to the pass because of the harsh wind and weather in NE.  (I thought that was a nonsense reason, it was probably because of recruiting challenges to get a drop back guy to play in the weather).  From that, a bunch of different plays were developed, and as he got faster players, they contended for the national championship....and the teams who prepared against pro style offenses just never saw that level of sophistication in the running game and blocking schemes.  

 

But yeah, for NE it was basically the QB (Tommie Frazier) with the option or the I back (Lawrence Phillips) with the Iso-pitch or wide-pitch play.  2 players.  The other guys blocked and some of them carried it or caught it on the other plays designed to play off of the success of those two positions.  

 

The blocking FB was the key.  Interestingly, teams figured out that if the DL could stop the FB from getting to his man, the running game failed.  

 

FB was the key to the running game, and the Colts or many teams don't even have a FB.  That's why I have always said that if you don't have a FB, you're not a serious running team.  Two TE's...LOL.  You're a passing team that succeeds with the run as a counter balance to your pass first offense.   The NFL has phased out the FB as it has become a passing league.

 

Good luck to the Colts with AR or to any run first team in the NFL.  The NFL running game is a different thing.

 

Not ruin the knee, but tackle him that way.

I am probably the biggest Cornhuskers fan you will ever chat with. Been a fan since 1983 when they had Turner Gill and Mike Rozier. They ran the same offense from 1983-1995 and nobody could stop it. Their 1995 team is the greatest team ever and will argue that until the day I die. Difference between the 1995 team and teams they had in 1983 and 1987 was, they lack speed on defense in 83 and 87. They didn't have the speed on defense to beat teams like Miami for example back in the 80's. That changed in 1994 and IMO it was their Offensive Line play and speed on defense that was superior in 94 and 95. That is why they thrashed everyone. Everyone knew they were going to run in 94 and 95 but they couldn't stop it because their O.Line was like an NFL O.Line. Tommie Frazier was also the best option QB of all-time. 

 

Miami ran a pro-style offense in 1994 and Florida did in 1995 and Nebraska beat both to win it all. The Huskers could play against any team today because many run a pro-style and they would get to the QB so fast it would not matter. Defense!

[DougDew]

26 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I am probably the biggest Cornhuskers fan you will ever chat with. Been a fan since 1983 when they had Turner Gill and Mike Rozier. They ran the same offense from 1983-1995 and nobody could stop it. Their 1995 team is the greatest team ever and will argue that until the I die. Difference between the 1995 team and teams they had in 1983 and 1987 was, they lack speed on defense in 83 and 87. They didn't have the speed on defense to beat teams like Miami for example back in the 80's. That changed in 1994 and IMO it was their Offensive Line play and speed on defense that was superior in 94 and 95. That is why they thrashed everyone. Everyone knew they were going to run in 94 and 95 but they couldn't stop it because their O.Line was like an NFL O.Line. Tommie Frazier was also the best option QB of all-time. 

 

Miami ran a pro-style offense in 1994 and Florida did in 1995 and Nebraska beat both to win it all. The Huskers could play against any team today because many run a pro-style and they would get to the QB so fast it would not matter. Defense!

Agree on most points.  I saw every home game from the student section that Gill, Rozier, and Fryar played.  I didn't appreciate what it was to have a perennially top 5 ranked team at my school.  I just thought it was normal.

 

When TO got faster DBs, got away from the thumper ILBs and moved his displaced bigger Safeties down to play ILB, he won championships.   Coach Monte Kiffin was a big part of those defenses, who went on to be the father of the Tampa 2 that Dungy gets credit for in the media.

 

Another classic game was the 1978 OU NE game in Lincoln.  NE was outclassed but won.  Keith Jackson play-by-play.  I'm sure its on youtube.

 

That was before Turner Gill and the option play being a staple, since NE had more drop back passer type of QBs.  If anybody wants to see a contrast between OUs wishbone running game working on all cylinders (Billy Sims) and NEs power running game, that 1978 game is a good example. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

10 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Agree on most points.  I saw every home game from the student section that Gill, Rozier, and Fryar played.  I didn't appreciate what it was to have a perennially top 5 ranked team at my school.  I just thought it was normal.

 

When TO got faster DBs, got away from the thumper ILBs and moved his displaced bigger Safeties down to play ILB, he won championships.   Coach Monte Kiffin was a big part of those defenses, who went on to be the father of the Tampa 2 that Dungy gets credit for in the media.

 

Another classic game was the 1978 OU NE game in Lincoln.  NE was outclassed but won.  Keith Jackson play-by-play.  I'm sure its on youtube.

 

That was before Turner Gill and the option play being a staple, since NE had more drop back passer type of QBs.  If anybody wants to see a contrast between OUs wishbone running game working on all cylinders and NEs power running game, that 1978 game is a good example. 

Cool I never knew were a Huskers fan. I didn't go to Nebraska but back then being from the mid-west, you either liked Notre Dame of course, Oklahoma, or Nebraska. I chose Nebraska as a kid. I loved their playing style. Their 83 team was regarded the best ever but they lost to Miami 31-30, had they just kicked the PAT and tied the game, Osborne would have had his championship there. Fryar was an awesome WR. The 1987 team had Steve Taylor and Neil Smith on defense, they were thrashing everyone too but the stinkin Sooners upset them in Lincoln when both teams were 10-0. I thought Steve Taylor was very good.

[King Colt]

On 5/16/2023 at 12:57 PM, Nickster said:

 

From a pure entertainment standpoint for me, I'd like to see Nebraska v. Miami type of game.  A contrasts of styles.  

 

I like watching great athletes do athletic things. 

 

But most of all I just want my teams to win.  That's what makes things interesting to me.  Rooting and getting excited and cussing and sitting around arguing about what the team should do etc.   

 

Right now being a Colts, Pacers, Cubs, St. Louis Blues fan has been rough.  Big Purdue fan and the regular seasons have been great, but as Boiler fan you just wait for them to blow it in the playoffs lol.

 

Watching my sports teams is about like watching paint dry right now. 

I too am a Colts & Cubs fan and yes it has been a rocky road but when the Cubs were and are down & out Wrigley is packed with great fans since day one.

[Lucky Colts Fan]

On 5/16/2023 at 8:31 AM, DougDew said:

The position being dumbed down to focus on athleticism.

 

This is such an awful take, and you know it.

 

No position in the NFL is being "dumbed down".  Every position is just being filled with more and more athletic people that are just as "not dumb" as their predecessors.

[hoosierhawk]

On 5/17/2023 at 12:38 PM, DougDew said:

I enjoyed watching college football teams running a college offense rather than college football teams trying to run a pro offense.  And big plays made in the college game is exciting to see.   Pro offense require much more timing and precision in the passing game. and college students inherently don't execute that as well.  

 

Another sport, Little League Baseball.  I love it for what it is.  But usually it comes down to the team that wins is the team that commits the fewest errors.  Fun in its own way, but that level of incompetence is difficult to watch when the players are older and professional or trying to be professionals.

 

I like execution of precise offenses, and execution of smart defenses in response.  A high scoring game, IMO, means defenses are outmatched and probably incompetent compared to the defenses, so high scoring games by their nature are not that much fun to watch.  Back and forth up the field or on the court is as boring as watching tennis.  JMO.

 

So the idea that our professional QBs are going to look more like college QBs means to me that the passing game is going to be much less complex, and much more about athleticism making plays off structure.  People like to watch Mahomes.  Personally, I root for a defender taking out a knee every time he tries his *.  Which will probably happen to AR when any defender has a good opportunity.

 

Bill Polian used to say that you have to bring a certain level of physicality to the game, but, the game is won by executing a game of precision better than the other team, and not because one guy being a better athlete than the other.  The latter being a big yawn.

Agree with a lot you said with the exception of the bolden paragraph. First off, I don't agree that using a duel threat QB is dumbing down the game. I think it can every bit as complex. The other thing I strongly disagree with you on is ever rooting for someone to take another guys knee out. I have two knee replacements and I would never wish that on anyone.

[LJpalmbeacher2]

Football in yesteryear was a lot more conservative than it has been for awhile. One coach said "only three things can happen when you throw a forward pass, and two of them are bad"...... LombardI's era was know as three yards and a cloud of dust. 

Slowly the passing game became more prevalent along with new rules to help the passing game. 

Oddly though, in the more conservative run oriented era QBs called their own plays and now with the heavy passing attacks the QBs mostly run what play is signaled in. I realize management wants more control of play calling now than decades ago. If Unitas and Jones played in today's games they would probably pass for over 5000 yards regularly, especially with the expanded schedule. 

[King Colt]

Up until 1906 the forward pass was illegal. When the Bears beat the Redskins in the 1940 national championship game 73-0 they had Sid Luckman and used the T formation for the first time ever. I have no idea who the QB was for Washington but with a score like that maybe there wasn't one!