Irsay Says that He Wants the Colts to Have "All Chips In" for 2022! Can this be true?

[EastStreet]

17 hours ago, TimetobringDfence! said:

Rivers won games with presnap awareness and adjustments. He also has a nice quick release and used Hines and checkdowns way more than CW. Carson tried the deep ball to often and our line can pass block good enough for that...

Wentz did not throw the deep ball too often. He wasn't even top half of the league in deep ball attempts.

He was however #6 in deep ball accuracy, so he should have thrown more... 

[EastStreet]

14 hours ago, richard pallo said:

Ballard was probably told by Irsay to bring TY back which stopped him in his tracks to add his replacement in FA.  

 

While it would not surprise me if Irsay put his finger on the scale, I don't think it was a bad move.

What was a bad move was using TY as a possession guy in the flat and on the sideline. 

The routes they gave him sucked.

[coltsfan_canada]

31 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

While it would not surprise me if Irsay put his finger on the scale, I don't think it was a bad move.

What was a bad move was using TY as a possession guy in the flat and on the sideline. 

The routes they gave him sucked.

 

I really wished TY was used as slot like Wes Welker or Edelman I think he can still be very useful as slot

[EastStreet]

27 minutes ago, coltsfan_canada said:

 

I really wished TY was used as slot like Wes Welker or Edelman I think he can still be very useful as slot

He'd be great in the slot. He would have been good in the Z too, but he simply needs Z (or slot) routes that allow speed and spacing. If you look at his route charts vs someone like Kupp's, it's really depressing. It's simply scheme / play calling.

[TimetobringDfence!]

6 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Wentz did not throw the deep ball too often. He wasn't even top half of the league in deep ball attempts.

He was however #6 in deep ball accuracy, so he should have thrown more... 

I don't know what is considered deep, I do know he must have been in 10 -15 yard range then... he didn't use checkdown enough... except when he was buried on a play and going for shovel passes or left handed throws. Good QBs will throw a ball away in 2 secs or less if nothing is there... we had the personal to do much shorter passes and more screens and we got away from that this year...Hines got paid and not used as much in my opinion.. 

[philba101]

On 1/19/2022 at 9:23 PM, EastStreet said:

It's a business. Part of the business is marketing and selling. 

I was called cynical for making a similar comment lol... But it's simple reality. 

I don't doubt Jim's desire to win though. 

Big question to me, is Irsay himself willing to make tweaks in the FO and scheme to improve things as well. 

I wonder if you look at all games/snaps lost this season due to Covid, what % is vax'd vs un-vax'd. 

Wentz didn't miss games/snaps due to covid.... Missed practice though. But so did a lot of vax'd guys. 

 

 

Before I continue, I'll say that it's completely obvious that Rivers is elite in short level one passing (L1). He's one of the best. And Carson is more of an extending L2 and L3 guy, from a skills perspective.... You also know I'm a Rivers fan, and wanted him back... 

 

That said, I'm not so sure we can be emphatic that WRs looked better, or worse, with either....

• OL was top 10 last year for Rivers, and bottom 3 in pass pro for Wentz. Rivers would have looked very different under the same circumstance, and his stats would have been closer to his 2019 season in LAC, which was not very good. And River's OL was not even as bad IIRC in 2019.... And even if you compare all the stats and quality ratings/rankings between the two, there's simply a very mixed bag which one could make a case either way.....
• As far as pass catcher stats... 
  • Pittman (PFF grade / YPG) - clearly better with Wentz
    • 2020  62.6  / 38.7
    • 2021:  78.0 /  63.6
    • Comment: Sure you can chalk a lot up to simply no longer being a rook, but there is no doubt whatsoever that Wentz and Pitt had chemistry. And one could argue Pitt and Wentz are simply good fits (both excel in L2/3 type of play). 
  • TY - push (due to decreased snaps, targets, and games, usage type, and simply age...) 
    • 2020:  77.7 / 50.8
    • 2021:  70.1 / 33.1
    • Comments:  Sure, better with Rivers in pure stats/grades, but what this doesn't show is that his snaps decreased significantly as did he targets per game. He started 6 less games this year due to issues. So the grading and YPG difference, isn't actually something you can hang your hat on if trying to look at QB impact. And if you're going to weight Pitt's improvement due to year 2 improvement (not being a rook), you have to also extend the same rational for TY who's older and declining.... 
  • Jack Doyle - better with Wentz 
    • 2020:  67.0 / 17.9
    • 2021:  71.6 / 17.8
    • Comments:  no difference in YPG, but graded about 5pts higher, and increased his 1D catches 38% with Wentz....
  • Pascal - better with Rivers 
    • 2020:  64.2 / 39.3
    • 2021:  52.7 / 24.0
    • Comments:  His air yards went from 5.6 to 3.5, so obviously he ran different routes and used differently in 2021. Overall, he stepped into a #2 role this year, and had similar snaps to our #1, so obviously getting more attention from Ds this year too. Used a ton in blocking this year as well, more so than last year's %. Most believe he's a WR4, so not a huge shock to see him regress in a bigger role, getting more attention. 
  • Taylor - push or slightly better with Wentz
    • Note: I'll use passer rating when targeted instead of PFF since RB grades are mixed.
      • 2020:  107.2 / 19.9
      • 2021:  109.2 / 21.2
      • Comments:  Taylor ate into Hines' carries and targets from last year, and made small improvements in the passing game, which is pretty impressive his use and production in the running game.
  • Hines - not going to list him as his use dropped big time (40+% less rushes, 25% less targets). Need to get him back in the mix.

The Hines numbers really stand out and are puzzling to me. The Colts made a point of signing him to a new contract early and then significantly used him less? Forty percent less rushes and 25% less targets is not a minor change in production and usage.

[Solid84]

8 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

Again... OL was 30th this year.... Brissett... He had a top 5 OL when he was here.

So any comp really isn't accurate. 

 

Wentz made a lot of mistakes and needs to work on several things. I'm not sold on him being anything for us. But at the same time, a 30th ranked OL and probably similar ranked WR group, simply will make it hard on most QBs. You can sometimes make it work with one of those two units being bad. Not both. 

Well how much of Wentz not taking the checkdowns and missing the open target is part of the WR group looking bad? While not great they were much better last year. Wentz hardly ever used Taylor or Hines as checkdowns which is a big part of Hines touches being almost halved this season.

[EastStreet]

11 hours ago, TimetobringDfence! said:

I don't know what is considered deep, I do know he must have been in 10 -15 yard range then... he didn't use checkdown enough... except when he was buried on a play and going for shovel passes or left handed throws. Good QBs will throw a ball away in 2 secs or less if nothing is there... we had the personal to do much shorter passes and more screens and we got away from that this year...Hines got paid and not used as much in my opinion.. 

 

Throwing deep, and not hitting checking downs are two separate and distinct things. Wentz's IAY (intended air yards) was not top 16, and his deep ball attempts per adv stats was not top 16 either. So while he didn't hit check downs, he wasn't throwing deep as the alternative. 

 

I disagree about good QBs throwing it away under 2 seconds. And Wentz is an extender, and that was no secret coming in. 

 

Hines not playing as much was a Reich call. He simply got less snaps. Less carries, and less targets too. While Wentz may impact targets, he certainly doesn't control snaps... JT's snaps went up as did his carries, which is the primary reason Hines was on the sideline more.... But I do agree Reich should have had him more active in the game plans. 

[EastStreet]

10 hours ago, philba101 said:

The Hines numbers really stand out and are puzzling to me. The Colts made a point of signing him to a new contract early and then significantly used him less? Forty percent less rushes and 25% less targets is not a minor change in production and usage.

I don't mind less up the gut rushes, but I did think we'd see more wide rushes. I'm OK between the tackles, enough to keep teams honest, just not on 3rd or 4th and short. The overall snap decrease is really hard to swallow after making him a top 10 paid RB... Purely my opinion, but he should have been given slot routes off and on in place of Pascal. 

[EastStreet]

10 hours ago, Solid84 said:

Well how much of Wentz not taking the checkdowns and missing the open target is part of the WR group looking bad? While not great they were much better last year. Wentz hardly ever used Taylor or Hines as checkdowns which is a big part of Hines touches being almost halved this season.

 

I did a breakout comparison of 2021 vs 2020. Some did better, some did worse.

[jszfunk]

On 1/19/2022 at 3:21 PM, RollerColt said:

Again, I refer to this wisdom:

 

Watch what they do, not what they say. 

 

We'll see what constitutes "all in" for Irsay. 

Agree. We should be all use to Jim's tweets and his schtick when it comes to that. We got awhile, so just sit back and relax.

[ChuggaBeer]

1 minute ago, EastStreet said:

I don't mind less up the gut rushes, but I did think we'd see more wide rushes. I'm OK between the tackles, enough to keep teams honest, just not on 3rd or 4th and short. The overall snap decrease is really hard to swallow after making him a top 10 paid RB... Purely my opinion, but he should have been given slot routes off and on in place of Pascal. 

That's on Wentz.    (and Reich for not just saying RUN THE DAMN PLAY). 

[EastStreet]

27 minutes ago, ChuggaBeer said:

That's on Wentz.    (and Reich for not just saying RUN THE DAMN PLAY). 

Wentz does not control snaps played by Hines.

[ChuggaBeer]

Just now, EastStreet said:

Wentz does not control snaps played by Hines.

My bad I thought you meant WHEN Frank calls a play to Hines. Wentz checks out of it for a contested deep ball.  LOL 

[EastStreet]

5 minutes ago, ChuggaBeer said:

My bad I thought you meant WHEN Frank calls a play to Hines. Wentz checks out of it for a contested deep ball.  LOL 

Wentz was top 10 (#6 IIRC) in deep ball accuracy, and Pittman was top or near the top of the league in contested catches. 

 

But, Wentz was bottom half of the league IIRC in deep ball attempts...

 

So, sorry, we didn't throw deep a lot. But when we did, we were highly successful. We should have done it more.

[ChuggaBeer]

12 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Wentz was top 10 (#6 IIRC) in deep ball accuracy, and Pittman was top or near the top of the league in contested catches. 

 

But, Wentz was bottom half of the league IIRC in deep ball attempts...

 

So, sorry, we didn't throw deep a lot. But when we did, we were highly successful. We should have done it more.

Need some more weapons.   If I am not mistaken this is a good yr for WR/TE.   We REALLY need a TE.    Maybe Ertzor Tonya

Maybe Granson makes a jump

[EastStreet]

Just now, ChuggaBeer said:

Need some more weapons.   If I am not mistaken this is a good yr for WR/TE.   We REALLY need a TE.    Maybe Ertzor Tonya

Maybe Granson makes a jump

 

Definitely need to upgrade WR. 

But not sure Reich's scheme will really take advantage of speed/space.

We've under utilized TE the last 3 years, so not sure adding a TE will make much difference. 

Reich wants Granson to be Burton 2.0... Which is the opposite to how he was used in college.

Anyway, not a huge fan of Burton, or using an undersized TE/HB out of the slot in the short passing game. 

I'd rather use Hines, or a speed slot WR.... 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

1 hour ago, EastStreet said:

Wentz does not control snaps played by Hines.

Hines only had 4% less snaps then in 2020.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Reich hasn’t had the same QB to have any consistancy with play calling. No matter what you think about it until he has a longer term answer more then one year it’s going to be inconsistent.

[EastStreet]

Just now, TaylorTheStudMuffin said:

Hines only had 4% less snaps then in 2020.

When you sign a guy to a top 10 RB salary, you increase his snaps. Not decrease them. 

His rushing attempts decreased by 40%.... 

[ChuggaBeer]

1 minute ago, EastStreet said:

When you sign a guy to a top 10 RB salary, you increase his snaps. Not decrease them. 

His rushing attempts decreased by 40%.... 

Quick question and maybe you will know.    I don't understand AT ALL the Marlon Mack situation.  WHY WHY WHY. have him on the roster if your not going to use him or at least dress him for a game.  Could have traded him for a 6-7th rounder.   

 

Anyway   My actual question.   Is Mack NOW a FA and can sign with a playoff team?  Or does he have to wait until the season is over?  

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

10 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

When you sign a guy to a top 10 RB salary, you increase his snaps. Not decrease them. 

His rushing attempts decreased by 40%.... 

well that won’t happen when you have Taylor.  That means he had more chances in the passing game and Wentz missed. If his snaps barely went down and his rushing attempts decreased that much then Wentz missed him.

[EastStreet]

21 minutes ago, ChuggaBeer said:

Quick question and maybe you will know.    I don't understand AT ALL the Marlon Mack situation.  WHY WHY WHY. have him on the roster if your not going to use him or at least dress him for a game.  Could have traded him for a 6-7th rounder.   

 

Anyway   My actual question.   Is Mack NOW a FA and can sign with a playoff team?  Or does he have to wait until the season is over?  

No team playoff team is going to sign Mack. It's just too late to try and insert a new guy who hasn't really played.

 

As far as his use... I have zero clue. Didn't make much sense. But cutting Hines' carries by 40% didn't make sense to me either. Either he's lost a step, or Reich just thought he wasn't a top 2 back for us. Guessing he was kept only as insurance if JT went down. 

 

We could get answers next season if he goes somewhere and gets to play. If he's lost a step though, he might just fade away totally. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

You all were complaining hines didn’t get more passing opportunities. Well if his snaps were only down 4% and his rushes were cut that much that says he was used more in the passing game and Wentz didn’t target him. Ballard mentioned getting him more involved has to be a priority next season. Hines hasn’t lost a step lol.

[EastStreet]

22 minutes ago, TaylorTheStudMuffin said:

well that won’t happen when you have Taylor.  That means he had more chances in the passing game and Wentz missed. If his snaps barely went down and his rushing attempts decreased that much then Wentz missed him.

No... 

 

JT's targets increased 31%...

Hines' targets decreased by 36%..

 

JT's snaps increased from 511, to 767... That's a 50% increase over 2020..... 

 

So it's JT eating into Hines' carries, targets, and snaps. 

 

You guys probably blame Wentz for the JFK assassination and sinking of the Titanic lol...

There is only one person to blame for Hines' reduced role... And that person is Frank Reich.

[TimetobringDfence!]

12 hours ago, Solid84 said:

Well how much of Wentz not taking the checkdowns and missing the open target is part of the WR group looking bad? While not great they were much better last year. Wentz hardly ever used Taylor or Hines as checkdowns which is a big part of Hines touches being almost halved this season.

Then Frank should be questioned for giving Wentz that control... If your QB can't handle the decisions step in whisperer...

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

5 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

No... 

 

JT's targets increased 31%...

Hines' targets decreased by 36%..

 

JT's snaps increased from 511, to 767... That's a 50% increase over 2020..... 

 

So it's JT eating into Hines' carries, targets, and snaps. 

 

You guys probably blame Wentz for the JFK assassination and sinking of the Titanic lol...

There is only one person to blame for Hines' reduced role... And that person is Frank Reich.

We aren’t talking about JT. Reich used him and Hines a ton more together this year. Some blame has to go on the QB. You hate Reich so everything is his fault.

[TimetobringDfence!]

41 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

When you sign a guy to a top 10 RB salary, you increase his snaps. Not decrease them. 

His rushing attempts decreased by 40%.... 

We paid him for his rec ability and Frank didn't make sure that happened. We could have ran more screens to him or or be a coach and yell your QB get him the ball more. Frank is regressing in my opinion and scapegoating Wentz...Luck and Rivers made him look better than he is...good coaches make young players better... Frank needs already good players...

[EastStreet]

1 minute ago, TimetobringDfence! said:

Then Frank should be questioned for giving Wentz that control... If your QB can't handle the decisions step in whisperer...

 

Folks blaming Wentz for Hines' decreased role are simply lazy (ignoring stats that are very clear), or just default to blaming Wentz for everything... 

 

JT's numbers in every area (targets, rushes, snaps) went up, meaning someone else's have to go down. Some folks just can't do simple math....

 

And even if the stats weren't so freaking obvious... If the QB is checking out of plays, then you coach that player not to do that... This whole Wentz narrative on Hines is just stupid. Folks want to gush over Reich... But Reich is the guy that probably pushed for Wentz. Reich is the guy that failed to "whisper-fix" the QB... And Reich is the guy that ran a conservative short passing scheme, which is not Wentz's strength in the first place.... All the Reich worship is hilarious to me. 

[EastStreet]

4 minutes ago, TaylorTheStudMuffin said:

We aren’t talking about JT. Reich used him and Hines a ton more together this year. Some blame has to go on the QB. You hate Reich so everything is his fault.

JT and Hines weren't on the field a ton together. It happened, but was not frequent at all. Certainly not enough to skew things. 

 

These are simple stats.... and you ignore them... Sorry if you can't see the obvious. 

 

Just answer this... Why where JT's targets, rushes, and snaps all up a ton.... Is that Wentz's fault too lol.... 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

2 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

Folks blaming Wentz for Hines' decreased role are simply lazy (ignoring stats that are very clear), or just default to blaming Wentz for everything... 

 

JT's numbers in every area (targets, rushes, snaps) went up, meaning someone else's have to go down. Some folks just can't do simple math....

 

And even if the stats weren't so freaking obvious... If the QB is checking out of plays, then you coach that player not to do that... This whole Wentz narrative on Hines is just stupid. Folks want to gush over Reich... But Reich is the guy that probably pushed for Wentz. Reich is the guy that failed to "whisper-fix" the QB... And Reich is the guy that ran a conservative short passing scheme, which is not Wentz's strength in the first place.... All the Reich worship is hilarious to me. 

Targets don’t mean nothing because Reich used them at the same time a lot more. Plus we ran a hell of a lot  with JT this year.

[EastStreet]

7 minutes ago, TimetobringDfence! said:

We paid him for his rec ability and Frank didn't make sure that happened. We could have ran more screens to him or or be a coach and yell your QB get him the ball more. Frank is regressing in my opinion and scapegoating Wentz...Luck and Rivers made him look better than he is...good coaches make young players better... Frank needs already good players...

Yup.

And Wentz had zero problem tossing to JT, or handing the ball to JT... So not sure why he'd simply choose to use one guy and not the other. And Wentz doesn't control who's in the game. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Reich was trying to figure out how to play to Wentz strengths. It’s his 4 th QB who have all had different strengths. You don’t build consistency in a offense having a different QB every year. Give the man a break. Not to mention a new OC. A QB who missed camp on too of it.

[EastStreet]

2 minutes ago, TaylorTheStudMuffin said:

Targets don’t mean nothing because Reich used them at the same time a lot more. Plus we ran a hell of a lot  with JT this year.

lol... 

so Wentz had no problem throwing JT (his targets increased), but had a problem throwing to Hines... 

lol... 

 

I'd say we had 2 backs on the field 7% or less of the time, and most of that was RZ, and short situation, where the ball was carried more than thrown. Also used two back sets to give extra blocking help when our tackles were getting roller skated... which wouldn't equate to a pass to one of them anyway... 

[EastStreet]

8 minutes ago, TaylorTheStudMuffin said:

Reich was trying to figure out how to play to Wentz strengths. It’s his 4 th QB who have all had different strengths. You don’t build consistency in a offense having a different QB every year. Give the man a break. Not to mention a new OC. A QB who missed camp on too of it.

It's no secret what Wentz's strengths are. He's never been a good quick short thrower. He's been a good play action, play extending, level 2 and level 3 guy. And we simply used him a lot more doing things he's never been good at. And at the same time, the OL sucked, and we had poor pass catching... Our WRs have been bottom 5 in the league in YAC for 2 or 3 straight years. And that's with having Pitt in the top 25.... 

 

Poor Frank... such a victim... 

[Captain_Colts1317]

We have a good wr in Pittman. A great RB in Taylor, and an under used explosive weapon in Hines. If we could get an explosive vertical wr threat and a dynamic TE this offense could be awesome. Staying out of the QB debate in this one. Just thinking about the rest of the offense. 

[LJpalmbeacher2]

On 1/24/2022 at 10:18 AM, richard pallo said:

Ballard was probably told by Irsay to bring TY back which stopped him in his tracks to add his replacement in FA.  

 

I think TY was a very late signing and irsay seen Ballard wasn't signing any significant wr FA's and that's when he stepped in. I could be wrong on the timeline/intent ?

[LJpalmbeacher2]

25 minutes ago, Captain_Colts1317 said:

We have a good wr in Pittman. A great RB in Taylor, and an under used explosive weapon in Hines. If we could get an explosive vertical wr threat and a dynamic TE this offense could be awesome. Staying out of the QB debate in this one. Just thinking about the rest of the offense. 

 

Irsay said as much in last off season 

[Btown_Colt]

19 hours ago, TaylorTheStudMuffin said:

Reich was trying to figure out how to play to Wentz strengths. It’s his 4 th QB who have all had different strengths. You don’t build consistency in a offense having a different QB every year. Give the man a break. Not to mention a new OC. A QB who missed camp on too of it.

Hmm, if only Frank & Wentz had previously worked together and new each other. You think you’re defending Frank, the guy that wanted Wentz, but you’re making him look worse. 
 

One of the benefits of this trade was the familiarity the coach & QB had with each other. But don’t let none of that stand in your way. 

[Believe blue1306]

On 1/19/2022 at 12:46 PM, philba101 said:

Of course, "All Chips In" is a gambling term. "No risk it, no biscuit" as Bruce Arians likes to say. So, are the Colts really ready to roll the dice and go "all in" for the 2022 season? I hope I am wrong but I feel like the following would be Ballard and Reich's version of "All In." Tell me if you think Irsay will be good with this for one more year and what your "All In" would be if you had the choice for 2022!

1. Bring Back Wentz (Save ourselves from eating $15 million in dead cap and throwing away a first and third rounder)

2. Bring in a veteran backup for Wentz to motivate him to play better (Has this been tried before?)

3. Develop the receiving corps that has so much potential (Potential is so much more risky than actual Production); maybe consider drafting a 6th-round receiver as well?

4. Spend no money signing free agents (Instead re-sign T.Y. and see if you can get 6 more games out of him on the cheap); of course the same strategy with Doyle as well.

5. Trade higher draft picks so we can get more lower drafts picks so that we can then develop them over the next five years (delayed gratification at its finest)

6. Patchwork the offensive line (re-sign anyone who is currently on the team but is not making big money yet)

7. Patch the holes in the secondary (sign futures agreements with any defenders who are currently not on any playoff teams)

8. Re-think everything because this is way to much risk for one 

So basically have the same season as this year?