Cba Says Colts Can't Watch Manning Throw

[BleedingBlue]

Strange rule.

If it is going to happen it probably will be at the last possible moment.

Some can use this as an arguement that PM won't be back, or they would have seen him already. I would have to agree with that assessment.

[UndecidedFrog]

My guess would be there is something else in the CBA that says a coach being present even if it's just to watch counts as directing or supervising. That's the issue it doesn't say they can't work out at the club's facalities it just says the Colts coaches can't supervise or direct them. What isn't made clear is is a coach watching count as directing or supervising judging by the media's response to this and the fact the Colts have not watched him I think the answer to that question is yes it does.

Also I doubt the Colts are going to try to skate the rules on this by putting up a camrea to watch as someone else suggested and even if they did they are sure as heck aren't going to admit to doing it in a public press conference.

Watching is not directing or supervising. If the coaches watch in a room via direct closed circuit TV cameras, how can they direct or supervise?

If there is uncertainty about the intent of the CBA language, I am sure there is a mechanism to resolve this in the CBA itself.

On priniciple, what sense is there in making a decision on whether or not to release a player that is coming off injury, to do so without such observations?

[CS Colts Fan]

well said GOColts...

that would have been the best response from our FO and even from the so-called expert analysis to have mentioned ... I agree with your comments on Grigson too .. he is focused on what he needs to be focused on.. I for one am looking forward to this up coming draft and off season ..

[Wyld1]

Watching is not directing or supervising. If the coaches watch in a room via direct closed circuit TV cameras, how can they direct or supervise?

If there is uncertainty about the intent of the CBA language, I am sure there is a mechanism to resolve this in the CBA itself.

On priniciple, what sense is there in making a decision on whether or not to release a player that is coming off injury, to do so without such observations?

Exactly! It makes little to no sense....

[GoColts8818]

Watching is not directing or supervising. If the coaches watch in a room via direct closed circuit TV cameras, how can they direct or supervise?

If there is uncertainty about the intent of the CBA language, I am sure there is a mechanism to resolve this in the CBA itself.

On priniciple, what sense is there in making a decision on whether or not to release a player that is coming off injury, to do so without such observations?

Depends on how you define it, that's why I said I would GUESS that since people are saying the Colts can't watch him throw and those people aren't just posters on an internet message board that it is definded somewhere that to the NFL watching IS directing or supervising. I am sure if there was a loop hole the Colts thought they could use they would.

Again I doubt the Colts are going to skirt the rules on this because I doubt the NFL would look too kindly on this. Remember what happened to the Pats when they skirted the rules with cameras? I know this isn't the exact same but the league doesn't tend to look kindly on you when they think you are trying to get one over on them and get around the rules.

Also if the Colts are doing that I really doubt they are going to come out and say hey we are doing this in a press conference.

I am sure the Colts would like to watch Peyton Manning but if the CBA prevents them from doing it then they have to live by the CBA rather it's in their best interest or not.

[Smonroe]

Watching is not directing or supervising. If the coaches watch in a room via direct closed circuit TV cameras, how can they direct or supervise?

If there is uncertainty about the intent of the CBA language, I am sure there is a mechanism to resolve this in the CBA itself.

On priniciple, what sense is there in making a decision on whether or not to release a player that is coming off injury, to do so without such observations?

If you look at the section it just says a team can't REQUIRE a player to workout. It also says a player can workout at a team's facility if he wants.

We shouldn't get rapped around the axle on the rule. IMHO Peyton will show he can throw before he forces the club to make a decision.

[ruksak]

Watching is not directing or supervising. If the coaches watch in a room via direct closed circuit TV cameras, how can they direct or supervise?

I have supervised employees for years on via CCTV. My motto has always been; If you want to know how an employee truly works, watch them when they don't know they're being watched.

Anywho....I would think monitoring them via CCTV would be termed as supervision.

[ruksak]

If you look at the section it just says a team can't REQUIRE a player to workout. It also says a player can workout at a team's facility if he wants.

We shouldn't get rapped around the axle on the rule. IMHO Peyton will show he can throw before he forces the club to make a decision.

This is what I was eluding to earlier. It seems only sensible for the player to have the option to be watched. Otherwise the 'protection' language actually works against him. This player (Manning) is trying to show he has rehabbed successfully. If he can't opt to display such, what protection was extended? He has to be able to showcase otherwise the CBA actually presents itself as a liability because it could lead directly to him getting cut.

[UndecidedFrog]

This is what I was eluding to earlier. It seems only sensible for the player to have the option to be watched. Otherwise the 'protection' language actually works against him. This player (Manning) is trying to show he has rehabbed successfully. If he can't opt to display such, what protection was extended? He has to be able to showcase otherwise the CBA actually presents itself as a liability because it could lead directly to him getting cut.

...which may not be a totally bad idea. Maybe the CBA rules are forcing a cut, then renegotiate strategy.

Afterall, after the cut, the team is no longer the player's club.

As a team that has cut a player, they can require and supervise and direct workouts of FAs to determine if they want to sign them, or is there a CBA rule that prevents that?

[CS Colts Fan]

good catch GoColts.. guess everyone else is catching up on your find !

Colts: Only medical staff can watch Manning before March 8

By NFL.com Staff |

Published: February 25th, 2012 | Tags: Peyton Manning, Albert Breer, Chuck Pagano, Indianapolis Colts, Jeff Saturday, Jim Irsay, Ryan Grigson

INDIANAPOLIS — Colts center Jeff Saturday was emphatic Saturday during NFL Network’s combine coverage that if the team really wants Peyton Manning, it should call the quarterback and schedule a throwing session to check his health.

The problem, the Colts told NFL Network’s Albert Breer, is that no team officials outside of medical personnel can watch Manning throw until April because of rules in the new collective bargaining agreement. Since Manning failed his exit physical after neck surgery, only trainers are permitted to observe him and can report back, but by rule can’t tape any workouts.

So owner Jim Irsay, general manager Ryan Grigson and coach Chuck Pagano won’t have a firsthand look at how Manning is performing before March 8, the deadline for the team to decide whether or not to pay him a $28 million roster bonus.

Saturday also said on NFL Network that Manning “absolutely” would play next season, adding, “I hope it’s here (in Indianapolis), but he’ll be playing somewhere.

[ruksak]

good catch GoColts.. guess everyone else is catching up on your find !

Colts: Only medical staff can watch Manning before March 8

By NFL.com Staff |

Published: February 25th, 2012 | Tags: Peyton Manning, Albert Breer, Chuck Pagano, Indianapolis Colts, Jeff Saturday, Jim Irsay, Ryan Grigson

INDIANAPOLIS — Colts center Jeff Saturday was emphatic Saturday during NFL Network’s combine coverage that if the team really wants Peyton Manning, it should call the quarterback and schedule a throwing session to check his health.

The problem, the Colts told NFL Network’s Albert Breer, is that no team officials outside of medical personnel can watch Manning throw until April because of rules in the new collective bargaining agreement. Since Manning failed his exit physical after neck surgery, only trainers are permitted to observe him and can report back, but by rule can’t tape any workouts.

So owner Jim Irsay, general manager Ryan Grigson and coach Chuck Pagano won’t have a firsthand look at how Manning is performing before March 8, the deadline for the team to decide whether or not to pay him a $28 million roster bonus.

Saturday also said on NFL Network that Manning “absolutely” would play next season, adding, “I hope it’s here (in Indianapolis), but he’ll be playing somewhere.

In this light, it seems a gamble that cripples an owners ability to properly evaluate. How odd?

[Smonroe]

In this light, it seems a gamble that cripples an owners ability to properly evaluate. How odd?

It's also funny that no one can actually cite that specific rule. Even if true, the trainers and medical staff are allowed to watch him.

[CS Colts Fan]

I hear ya Ruk.. I think this will let us know where both parties stand.. I would think that they will move the date back and I would like to see PM re-do his contract to where he can get what he wants in the $$ , but much more cap friendly... if he will and i think he will we could be back and competing ....

[GoColts8818]

It's also funny that no one can actually cite that specific rule. Even if true, the trainers and medical staff are allowed to watch him.

I think you have to go back to what the blogger said it's just in a bunch of legalize. Frankly I got my understanding of it from the second paragraph where it said coaches can't supervise or direct players during this time. That was barried in there and you had to get threw a lot of legal mumbo jumbo to get to it and then you had to make sense of it and even then it doesn't fully answer the question because it doesn't define what supervising or directing is per the NFL rules. It would look like to the NFL just watching counts as that. Also I didn't find where it says you can't video tape it in there but the later story does have it in there. It looks like it's a combnation of a few rules so you can't just point to one line and says it covers all this.

[wercolts]

I just think it's amazing the tone of the forum is largely that this isnt a done deal, when elsewhere in the outside world it is.

Who in the "outside world" gets any input on if, when or how a deal between Peyton and the Colts is done? People on this forum know as much about whether Peyton will be a Colt next year as Schefty, La Canfora or Rob Lowe for that matter. You can probably count on one hand the number of people that have any true knowledge of any kind of deal, and It's reasonable to think even they have not come to any conclusions. The only people that matter, or know anything with certainty, are Tom Condon, Jim Irsay and Peyton Manning, and if it was a "done deal" the debate would have been ended with those three signatures..

[Warhorse]

Predictions are like weeds. They pop up whether you want them or not. You eradicate them and they come back. They interrupt a nice landscape with a trashy look, and they serve no purpose other than to provide a little existence time to the poor miserable plant.

Unfortunately, the predictions around here are like Kudzu.....everywhere, resilient, and nearly unkillable. Even logic and FACTS....not unlike Roundup, will remove them.

[rockywoj]

su·per·vise/ˈso͞opərˌvīz/

Verb:

• Observe and direct the execution of (a task, project, or activity).
  
• Observe and direct the work of (someone).
  

Still, utterly ridiculous that a team cannot observe a player to determine that player's health, before having to commit to tens of millions of dollars in exercising a bonus option. If I were owner, simply put, I would circumvent that rule if the player agrees. That would be the day I would let a term of a CBA stand in the way of making a crucially informed business decision.

[GoColts8818]

su·per·vise/ˈso͞opərˌvīz/

Verb:

• Observe and direct the execution of (a task, project, or activity).
  
• Observe and direct the work of (someone).
  

Still, utterly ridiculous that a team cannot observe a player to determine that player's health, before having to commit to tens of millions of dollars in exercising a bonus option. If I were owner, simply put, I would circumvent that rule if the player agrees.

even if you get caught and have to pay the fines that were listed and then have to risk losing your off-season practices? No thanks...

It says doctors and medical people can watch him. That includes the Colts medical people. They know what football players look like and if a guy is healthy or not and they can tell the Colts what they saw. No it's not as good as having Pags or Grigson there watching but it's not like the Colts are completely in the dark here.

[Ohio Colt]

Yea we're just as informed as those who know people inside the NFL. Keep telling yourself that. We know as much as Schefter, Peter king, Mort, etc. I'm sure everyone here has tons of NFL players and people around the league in their cell phones. Cmon. People who are on the inside and have connections on the inside of course have probably heard stuff closer to the truth than we have

[Larry Horseman]

If you believe we are drafting Andrew Luck and you're logical, you cannot think we are bringing back Manning. It truly is one or the other.

Letting Peyton go elsewhere won't make sense any more after next season than it does now. It won't. Luck isn't sitting two years. So it won't make sense after 2013 either. PM is not coming back because we are drafting Luck.

I'm not saying PM will be back, but I've taken a few diversity conferences and there is something called a both/and. Speaking in absolutes is a slippery slope.

[jtcoltsfan]

Something interesting that I read was Article 21 Section 9 under Offseason Participation Contract:

"..an Unrestricted Free Agent whose Player Contract with that Club has expired, may enter into an Offseason Workout Program and Minicamp Participation Agreement in order to participate in the offseason workout program and minicamp(s) of that Club."

[JWF]

That sounds ridiculous.

Not calling out the OP btw. More so questioning the article.

[John Dee]

That makes no sense.....If he's working out and rehabbing at the Colts facility, how can they not be allowed to watch him throw???

That makes no sense.....If he's working out and rehabbing at the Colts facility, how can they not be allowed to watch him throw???

the Colts know exactly where Manning stands "health" wise.

[GoColts8818]

That sounds ridiculous.

Not calling out the OP btw. More so questioning the article.

That's fair to question the rule. I am not really sure how I feel about this rule. I am sure there is a reason. Might be a good reason for someone to call into Polian's radio show and ask him about it because I would bet he would be able to explain why it's set up the way it is.

[Ohio Colt]

the Colts know exactly where Manning stands "health" wise.

100% right. They already know what they're going to do. No one should be naive and believe they do not.

[UndecidedFrog]

That's fair to question the rule. I am not really sure how I feel about this rule. I am sure there is a reason. Might be a good reason for someone to call into Polian's radio show and ask him about it because I would bet he would be able to explain why it's set up the way it is.

And since BP has stated on his radio show that he has seen PM throw in December, isn't that admitting that as the Vice Chairman of the Colts at the time, he was violating the CBA rules at that time?

[MR. Blueblood]

Would it be possible for Peyton to have an observed throwing session at a non team facility, say like at Duke when he was there? What are any of your thoughts about a meeting occurring at a neutral site? Against CBA, loophole, etc????

[Ohio Colt]

Would it be possible for Peyton to have an observed throwing session at a non team facility, say like at Duke when he was there? What are any of your thoughts about a meeting occurring at a neutral site? Against CBA, loophole, etc????

My honest thoughts are probably; of course they could set that up. But I think behind the scenes there are too many reasons why that will not be necessary. I truly think that Manning wants to move on and Irsay also wants to move on and neither wants to look like the bad guy in this situation and like they were the reason this ended. They've known for a while a release was coming. That's why we hear reports of other teams 'preparing to make a run for peyton manning when he comes available'. In league circles, NFL personnel people think it's a sure bet that he's going to be a free agent. If he truly wasn't they would know that. Where there is smoke there's always usually a fire. There's just too much smoke here for him not to end up released.

[MR. Blueblood]

And since BP has stated on his radio show that he has seen PM throw in December, isn't that admitting that as the Vice Chairman of the Colts at the time, he was violating the CBA rules at that time?

The regular season ended Jan 1st for the Colts so that IMO wouldn't be part of the off season restriction, idk I could very well be wrong about how it was worded. I just took it as being prohibited in the off season.

[MAC]

It is inconceivable that the Colts and Manning would enter into a contract - with a special provision built in for the sole purpose of protecting the Colts in the event that Manning has a problem with his neck - in which that provision has to be exercised blind because the team isn't allowed to watch him.

Common sense dictates that the purpose of the CBA in this case is to both prevent teams from forcing players to "work" during certain times of the year when the union has negotiated to allow them NOT to work, and equally to prevent a team from gaining an unfair advantage over other teams by performing football activities with their players at times of the year when other teams are not. Without these provisions teams would be forcing their players to work 24/7 year round.

They can't force Peyton to work out, they can't institute a new play book in February, but the thought that they can't "observe" him throwing a football on the eve of committing to a cap crushing contract based largely on his being able to throw a football is just insane. How could that possibly be?

[CS Colts Fan]

But BP seeing PM in December was during the season.. didn't it state during the Offseason? and when does the season officially begin? FA is March 13th ?

[JCPatriot]

Otherwise the 'protection' language actually works against him. This player (Manning) is trying to show he has rehabbed successfully. If he can't opt to display such, what protection was extended? He has to be able to showcase otherwise the CBA actually presents itself as a liability because it could lead directly to him getting cut.

...but here is the interesting part that everybody glosses over...

"Nothing herein shall prevent a Club from permitting an individual player to work out on his own prior to the commencement of the Club’s official offseason workout program using the Club facilities if the player wishes to do so, except that no club official may indicate to a player that such individual workouts are not voluntary, or that a player’s failure to participate in such workouts will result in the player’s failure to make the Club (or that a player’s failure to participate in a workout program or classroom instruction will result in the player’s failure to make the Club or result in any other adverse consequences affecting his work-ing conditions)."

...so, by the CBA, not seeing him throw cannot be the reason that they cut him......but then they have to go by the most recent evaluation that they have.....which is before the season ended.....and they will almost definitely cut him based on that evaluation. But if they would have kept him if they saw him throw but they don't because they didn't see him throw...... It is dicey. I hate rules that make you judge intent or reasons for decisions.

[John Dee]

It is inconceivable that the Colts and Manning would enter into a contract - with a special provision built in for the sole purpose of protecting the Colts in the event that Manning has a problem with his neck - in which that provision has to be exercised blind because the team isn't allowed to watch him.

Common sense dictates that the purpose of the CBA in this case is to both prevent teams from forcing players to "work" during certain times of the year when the union has negotiated to allow them NOT to work, and equally to prevent a team from gaining an unfair advantage over other teams by performing football activities with their players at times of the year when other teams are not. Without these provisions teams would be forcing their players to work 24/7 year round.

They can't force Peyton to work out, they can't institute a new play book in February, but the thought that they can't "observe" him throwing a football on the eve of committing to a cap crushing contract based largely on his being able to throw a football is just insane. How could that possibly be?

What did Indy do Last Year.. er... Peyton's contract? LAST SEASON..... ?

[John Dee]

The "big" rumor was that Polian and the team game Manning a "physical"... Really?

Whatever...

Now ... here we are 2 years later... Bill fired, 75% of the staff fired, and Manning still...... not healthy........

WOW...

[John Dee]

What if the team took Manning on his word .. 2 years ago on the contract? I think this is a big issue.

[CS Colts Fan]

John you mean 1 year right? his contract was made last year.. am I missing something? I too have questioned the so-called physical and his health ..but it isn't my money either

[John Dee]

John you mean 1 year right? his contract was made last year.. am I missing something? I too have questioned the so-called physical and his health ..but it isn't my money either

Right;... we are on the "second" year of his deal..... I worded it wrong... sorry.

[JCPatriot]

I was wondering the same thing. I was hoping he would take those last three posts and try to wrap them up into some kind of coherent statement because I am having a hard time deciphering what he is trying to say.

[John Dee]

But at any rate .. Bill P swears Manning passed a physical... really?

Maybe this is why Polian got fired for "one" losing season.... ??? 2

What a soap opera??

[John Dee]

I was wondering the same thing. I was hoping he would take those last three posts and try to wrap them up into some kind of coherent statement because I am having a hard time deciphering what he is trying to say.

Sorry... I know Pat fans need things spelled out ... one letter at a time.

hehe...