Cba Says Colts Can't Watch Manning Throw

[GoColts8818]

I know this has been a hot topic lately in several threads but I just saw it reported by Phil B. and Chap who work for the Indy Star that the Colts can NOT watch Manning throw till May because of the CBA.

http://twitter.com/#!/mchappell51

While I don't think this makes it a lock that Peyton is coming back this is clearly not the death nail that some had made it out to be that because the Colts hadn't seen Manning throw that it ment it was he out of here. I am not saying he wont still be released this is just not a sign that some have made it out to be.

Mods if you want to merge this that's cool I just figured since it was in so many threads it should have it's own thread.

[Peyton and Eli fan]

I'd like to see the language in the CBA that says that.

[icf]

That makes no sense.....If he's working out and rehabbing at the Colts facility, how can they not be allowed to watch him throw???

[GoColts8818]

I'd like to see the language in the CBA that says that.

Per Chap it says only doctors have access to a rehabbing player probably has to do with trying to keep teams from lying about a player's health or putting presure on a player to get healthy when he's really not.

[ruksak]

Perhaps the language stipulates that Manning can decide if the Colts can watch him throw? Sounds like the CBA provides protection for rehabbing players, but perhaps it is optional?

[GoColts8818]

Perhaps the language stipulates that Manning can decide if the Colts can watch him throw? Sounds like the CBA provides protection for rehabbing players, but perhaps it is optional?

I don't think so. This seems like something that is kinda cut and dry. I know I had heard it talked about before on the radio and they said then that the Colts couldn't watch Manning throw because of the CBA I just didn't want to say anything without a link.

I'd agree I think this is there to protect rehabbing players but I don't think it's optional but I could be wrong becuase clearly I am not an expert when it comes to understanding the CBA, not many are and the ones that are work for the NFL in some shape or form, but the way people have talked about it it did not seem optional.

[FireJimCaldwell]

I'd like to see the language in the CBA that says that.

Me too.. It must be in white ink on white paper.

[ruksak]

Me too.. It must be in white ink on white paper.

You no trusts the interwebz?

[GoColts8818]

Me too.. It must be in white ink on white paper.

http://www.azcentral...ntSomers/156050

"At least that’s the way I read the CBA, which contains much legalese.

According to Section 21 of the CBA, players are not allowed to participate in workouts, practices or meetings supervised by club officials until the official off-season program begins.

There are limitations even when the nine-week off-season program begins. During the first two weeks of that program, strength and conditioning coaches are the only coaches who can be on the field with players. I couldn’t find exceptions for injured players.

Quaterbacks can throw to receivers then, but the coach and position coaches can’t be there.

Violation of those rules could be costly. A head coach is subject to a $100,000 fine for the first violation and $250,000 for the second. The team is subject to a $250,000 fine for the first violation and $500,000 for the second.

Violations of the rules governing the off-season also can result in teams forfeiting off-season practices."

There you go

[GoColts8818]

It probably is also there to keep teams from bringing in free agents for workouts during the free agent period. I know that's a normal process once the season starts and this might be there to prevent teams from doing that during other parts of the year.

[Peyton and Eli fan]

http://www.azcentral...ntSomers/156050

"At least that’s the way I read the CBA, which contains much legalese.

According to Section 21 of the CBA, players are not allowed to participate in workouts, practices or meetings supervised by club officials until the official off-season program begins.

There are limitations even when the nine-week off-season program begins. During the first two weeks of that program, strength and conditioning coaches are the only coaches who can be on the field with players. I couldn’t find exceptions for injured players.

Quaterbacks can throw to receivers then, but the coach and position coaches can’t be there.

Violation of those rules could be costly. A head coach is subject to a $100,000 fine for the first violation and $250,000 for the second. The team is subject to a $250,000 fine for the first violation and $500,000 for the second.

Violations of the rules governing the off-season also can result in teams forfeiting off-season practices."

There you go

hmmm...weird. thanks.

[FireJimCaldwell]

I guess it depends on how one defined supervised, and then the difference being a player rehabbing as opposed to working out on his own.

I read that prior to white ink on white paper comment. The whole purpose of failing the physical was so that he could workout with the staff. Any player can work out at the facility, not just injured ones, they can only be monitored by a strength coach and such.

Supervised to me mean, under their direction, more so that viewing it.

[wercolts]

So Jim and Peyton won't be playing catch in Peyton's backyard? Sign the guy and trade the pick and call the secret service for protection.

[FireJimCaldwell]

I couldn’t find exceptions for injured players.

Which was the premise behind the white ink on white paper comment.

[GoColts8818]

I guess it depends on how one defined supervised, and then the difference being a player rehabbing as opposed to working out on his own.

I read that prior to white ink on white paper comment. The whole purpose of failing the physical was so that he could workout with the staff. Any player can work out at the facility, not just injured ones, they can only be monitored by a strength coach and such.

Supervised to me mean, under their direction, more so that viewing it.

I read it was for him to be able to use the facility and the Colts trainers and doctors. I don't think it was ever said the Colts coaches could watch other than maybe the strength coach and maybe there is an exception for that out of safety. Also Peyton was mostly working out with the current one when the season was still going on (well the playoffs) maybe after the playoffs that was cut off. It could also be maybe Peyton was going to down to the Stength coach and said hey what should I do and then go do it. I think they are aloud to talk to him just by what is being said here they can't watch it.

[Smonroe]

I just read Article 21. The key point that the writer is missing is the word "required".

In our case, the Colts can't REQURE Peyton to work out. It's up to him. He is entitled to work out at the team facilities if he wishes.

I wish these reporters would take a second to read the CBA before they report on it.

[GoColts8818]

Which was the premise behind the white ink on white paper comment.

That wasn't my comment that was the guy who wrote the blog's I just quoted the key part for you.

Clearly it's not just this guy who wrote that who couldn't find it I know I've heard this talked about by other people who have studyed the CBA John Clayton being one of them. Chap and Phil B. are now also reporting this as well. Add that to the fact the Colts are saying they aren't watching them I'd say they are right in saying the CBA prevents this no matter how silly that might seem to some.

[Peyton and Eli fan]

I just read Article 21. The key point that the writer is missing is the word "required".

In our case, the Colts can't REQURE Peyton to work out. It's up to him. He is entitled to work out at the team facilities if he wishes.

I wish these reporters would take a second to read the CBA before they report on it.

Please quote the part of the CBA that uses the word required. Thanks.

[Smonroe]

Please quote the part of the CBA that uses the word required. Thanks.

Section 1. Voluntary Workouts: No player shall be required to attend or participate in any offseason workout program or classroom instruction of a Club other than as pro-vided in Article 22. Any other Club offseason workout programs and classroom instruction sessions shall be strictly voluntary and shall take place in the manner and time period set forth in this Article.

(Section 2) Nothing herein shall prevent a Club from permitting an individual player to work out on his own prior to the commencement of the Club’s official offseason workout program using the Club facilities if the player wishes to do so, except that no club official may indicate to a player that such individual workouts are not voluntary...

[FireJimCaldwell]

That wasn't my comment that was the guy who wrote the blog's I just quoted the key part for you.

Clearly it's not just this guy who wrote that who couldn't find it I know I've heard this talked about by other people who have studyed the CBA John Clayton being one of them. Chap and Phil B. are now also reporting this as well. Add that to the fact the Colts are saying they aren't watching them I'd say they are right in saying the CBA prevents this no matter how silly that might seem to some.

"Nothing herein shall prevent a Club from permitting an individual player to work out on his own prior to the commencement of the Club’s official offseason workout program using the Club facilities if the player wishes to do so, except that no club official may indicate to a player that such individual workouts are not voluntary, or that a player’s failure to participate in such workouts will result in the player’s failure to make the Club (or that a player’s failure to participate in a workout program or classroom instruction will result in the player’s failure to make the Club or result in any other adverse consequences affecting his work-ing conditions)."

That to me means, Clark, if in town , can go work out, but can't be worked out by the TE coach, OC, HC etc. I take it as under their direction.

I would hope the complex has plenty of cameras in it as well...

So I still haven't seen where the colts coaching staff is prevented from watching an injured player working out.

[wercolts]

Maybe he'll be called in as a thrower for the WR's tomorrow.

[Peyton and Eli fan]

Section 1. Voluntary Workouts: No player shall be required to attend or participate in any offseason workout program or classroom instruction of a Club other than as pro-vided in Article 22. Any other Club offseason workout programs and classroom instruction sessions shall be strictly voluntary and shall take place in the manner and time period set forth in this Article.

(Section 2) Nothing herein shall prevent a Club from permitting an individual player to work out on his own prior to the commencement of the Club’s official offseason workout program using the Club facilities if the player wishes to do so, except that no club official may indicate to a player that such individual workouts are not voluntary...

Ok thanks. It's clear as mud now

[Ohio Colt]

My goodness the only folks I see thinking Manning is coming back to the Colts and grasping at every little straw are Colts fans themselves.

Every other rational person out there says he is most likely gone for reasons a,b,c,d,e and f but fellow Colts fans seem to disregard anything to do with him leaving and only want to talk about him coming back.

I guess I understand it but you're setting yourself up for heartbreak when he is elsewhere

[GoColts8818]

I just read Article 21. The key point that the writer is missing is the word "required".

In our case, the Colts can't REQURE Peyton to work out. It's up to him. He is entitled to work out at the team facilities if he wishes.

I wish these reporters would take a second to read the CBA before they report on it.

Till you read Phase 2 of Article 21 that talks about when teams may workout players.

https://images.nflplayers.com/mediaResources/files/PDFs/General/2011_Final_CBA.pdf

Page 146

It says "players are not permitted to participate in Club-Supervised workouts...Club's strength and Condentioning coaches may not direct player's individual workouts, but may supervise use of the weight room to prevent injury and correct misuse of equipment. (iv) players activites may not be directed or supervised by any coaches."

I'd say if we read the whole thing at some point it defines a coach being present even if just to watch counts as a coache directing or supervising an activity.

[Smonroe]

Ok thanks. It's clear as mud now

Yeah, I agree. I just wanted to point out that even if a reporter tweets something that he read from another reporter, who isn't sure what he's reading.... maybe we shouldn't take it as truth. Unless Shefty or LaCanora reports it, of course.

[FireJimCaldwell]

My only assumption is that they are saying "supervised" is "Watching", as opposed to conducting", Even then the injured part of the equation isn't addressed in this section.

[wercolts]

My goodness the only folks I see thinking Manning is coming back to the Colts and grasping at every little straw are Colts fans themselves.

Every other rational person out there says he is most likely gone for reasons a,b,c,d,e and f but fellow Colts fans seem to disregard anything to do with him leaving and only want to talk about him coming back.

I guess I understand it but you're setting yourself up for heartbreak when he is elsewhere

Those rational folks only have one reason Manning will be somewhere else, money, and it doesn't pass the smell test because of contracts yet to be offered, restructured or otherwise sign, including Manning's.

[GoColts8818]

My goodness the only folks I see thinking Manning is coming back to the Colts and grasping at every little straw are Colts fans themselves.

Every other rational person out there says he is most likely gone for reasons a,b,c,d,e and f but fellow Colts fans seem to disregard anything to do with him leaving and only want to talk about him coming back.

I guess I understand it but you're setting yourself up for heartbreak when he is elsewhere

Please show me one quote in this thread where someone is grasping at a straw to say Peyton is coming back because of this?

I said clearly it's not a sign he's coming back it's just not the death nail people were making it out to be. I didn't see any one else post here before you posted this that it was a saying it's a sign he's coming back.

[Ohio Colt]

If you believe we are drafting Andrew Luck and you're logical, you cannot think we are bringing back Manning. It truly is one or the other.

Letting Peyton go elsewhere won't make sense any more after next season than it does now. It won't. Luck isn't sitting two years. So it won't make sense after 2013 either. PM is not coming back because we are drafting Luck.

[Smonroe]

Please show me one quote in this thread where someone is grasping at a straw to say Peyton is coming back because of this?

I said clearly it's not a sign he's coming back it's just not the death nail people were making it out to be. I didn't see any one else post here before you posted this that it was a saying it's a sign he's coming back.

Yep, I don't think any rational person takes this as any kind of sign.

What I think it all means is that it's Peyton's option to throw for the Colts. He's under contract with a bonus date. Technically he doesn't even have to throw for them.

However, I think he will and then it will be Irsay's move.

[GoColts8818]

If you believe we are drafting Andrew Luck and you're logical, you cannot think we are bringing back Manning. It truly is one or the other.

Letting Peyton go elsewhere won't make sense any more after next season than it does now. It won't. Luck isn't sitting two years. So it won't make sense after 2013 either. PM is not coming back because we are drafting Luck.

This thread has nothing to do with Andrew Luck if you want to bash on the people who are talking about Peyton coming back please find a thread where that is being discussed there are plunty of them. No one is saying that because of this it's a sign that Peyton is for sure coming back. It's just not the death nail that he's gone that it was being made out to be. It could turn out the Colts had a very good reason not to be watching Peyton, they couldn't and it doesn't have anything to do with if Peyton is coming back or not. The leason here might be not to over react to everything that is said in a press conference like people did yesterday when the Colts said they hadn't watched Peyton throw.

[wercolts]

We're done here. Ohio Colt has cut Manning and signed Luck already. Somebody tweet Schefty and LaCanfora.

[Ohio Colt]

I just think it's amazing the tone of the forum is largely that this isnt a done deal, when elsewhere in the outside world it is.

[Smonroe]

My goodness the only folks I see thinking Manning is coming back to the Colts and grasping at every little straw are Colts fans themselves.

Every other rational person out there says he is most likely gone for reasons a,b,c,d,e and f but fellow Colts fans seem to disregard anything to do with him leaving and only want to talk about him coming back.

I guess I understand it but you're setting yourself up for heartbreak when he is elsewhere

I'm not going to say you're wrong, no one knows right now. But let me ask you - what has Irsay or Peyton said that leads you to believe "he's gone"?

[GoColts8818]

I just think it's amazing the tone of the forum is largely that this isnt a done deal, when elsewhere in the outside world it is.

First of all youa re more than welcome to have that opinion with that said though this thread isn't talking about that or at least it wasn't till you brought it up and you did it in a manor of attacking people for saying people are grasping at straws to hang on to Peyton Manning. Just one problem till you brought it up no one said in this thread that this was a sign that Peyton was coming back. Heck even now no has said this is a sign that Peyton is coming back.

This thread was just simply started to clear up something that was a big deal yesterday and say it has nothing to do with if Peyton is coming back or not. It just explains why the Colts hadn't watched Peyton throw.

I've said before and will say it again I don't think Peyton is coming back and while I would like him back I would say you would have to do some major reaching to argue that based on this it some how means he is coming back.

[Ohio Colt]

Irsay is taking Luck. They can't both play here beyond this coming season. And this situation won't remedy itself by the end of this coming season. Then you're right back here a year later, Luck has no game experience, and you have to bid Manning goodbye most likely only it's maybe after he has thrown for 4,000 or maybe it's when you have had an ugly controversy.... It just can't happen

[CS Colts Fan]

would be nice if someone would have been more upfront with this info and told the reason why they hadn't/couldn't see him throw .. IF this is what it appears to be..

Thanks for the info

[GoColts8818]

would be nice if someone would have been more upfront with this info and told the reason why they hadn't/couldn't see him throw .. IF this is what it appears to be..

Thanks for the info

That's fair, personal had it been me rather than saying I hadn't seen Peyton Manning throw I would have said "Well the CBA prevents us from watching Peyton throw the football so I can't really answer that question."

I think it just goes back to Grigson not being good with the media. Personally if Grigson is good with the other more important jobs that comes with being a GM I can live with him not being the best person when it comes to talking to the media.

[UndecidedFrog]

The team cannot require a player to workout at this time during the off-season.

However, the player can choose to workout at the team's facilities at any time.

Assuming contract details are agreeable to both parties, why would PM refuse to workout at the team's facilities to show that he can throw at the expected level to the team's representatives? Why would the team agree to sign a new contract, revise the existing contract, or pay the option bonus of the existing contract without seeing PM throw?

The way I read and understand the CBA, there is nothing that prevents PM from working out at the team's facilities at any time, and that there is nothing to prevent any team official from watching him do so.

[GoColts8818]

The team cannot require a player to workout at this time during the off-season.

However, the player can choose to workout at the team's facilities at any time.

Assuming contract details are agreeable to both parties, why would PM refuse to workout at the team's facilities to show that he can throw at the expected level to the team's representatives? Why would the team agree to sign a new contract, revise the existing contract, or pay the option bonus of the existing contract without seeing PM throw?

You have to read past the first part and go to phase two.

https://images.nflpl...1_Final_CBA.pdf

Page 146

It says "players are not permitted to participate in Club-Supervised workouts...Club's strength and Condentioning coaches may not direct player's individual workouts, but may supervise use of the weight room to prevent injury and correct misuse of equipment. (iv) players activites may not be directed or supervised by any coaches."

My guess would be there is something else in the CBA that says a coach being present even if it's just to watch counts as directing or supervising. That's the issue it doesn't say they can't work out at the club's facalities it just says the Colts coaches can't supervise or direct them. What isn't made clear is is a coach watching count as directing or supervising judging by the media's response to this and the fact the Colts have not watched him I think the answer to that question is yes it does.

Also I doubt the Colts are going to try to skate the rules on this by putting up a camrea to watch as someone else suggested and even if they did they are sure as heck aren't going to admit to doing it in a public press conference.