Our New Strength And Conditioning Coach... Thoughts?

[GoGoColts]

He seems like a good hire. I hope that the team gets away from all this Crossfit style nonesense and gets to some good hard weight training.

I don't know what the old S&C guy was thinking. I think that he was trying to get too cute with the programs. Commnig from college, I hope that our new guy gets them back to basics.

Our New S& C Coach

http://www.colts.com/team/coaches/Roger-Marandino/b1cb3fd0-f20f-42d3-aec3-22b525f4758c

http://brownbears.co...no_roger00.html

[Andy]

My cousin went to Brown University, played hockey there. I spoke to him just after this happened and he told me he's a "pro" and "is a nice guy." Looks like we got a good one. Hopefully, he trains these guys properly and the Colts avoid being the team with the most injuries for a 45th straight year...

[21isSuperman]

Hopefully this will lead to less injuries...bring back Bob Sanders!

[chad72]

We could use some levitation techniques, LOL , some yoga and maybe some pilates too .

[The Peytonator]

I won't pretend to know anything about our previous S&C coach and his programs, but I do know we've been the most injury riddled team the last three years, and a change was needed there.

[Captain Americolt]

So does that mean Bob will play 3 games this year?

[wordofmouth]

He seems like a good hire. I hope that the team gets away from all this Crossfit style nonesense and gets to some good hard weight training.

I don't know what the old S&C guy was thinking. I think that he was trying to get too cute with the programs. Commnig from college, I hope that our new guy gets them back to basics.

Our New S& C Coach

http://www.colts.com...c3-22b525f4758c

http://brownbears.co...no_roger00.html

Just curious as to what you base any of this on?

[GoGoColts]

Just curious as to what you base any of this on?

I saw a few random things about the Colts several years ago. One was on Dwight Freeney. I forget who was featured in the other one. Anyway, they mentioned the Colts S&C program. He had them doing a lot of Crossfit style nonesense.

[Fatboyslim11]

I won't pretend to know anything about our previous S&C coach and his programs, but I do know we've been the most injury riddled team the last three years, and a change was needed there.

True dat. Our injuries were also partly due to our smallish players not being able to physically take the pounding associated with playing NFL football. As long as we don't trot out the 5' 9" 190 lbs midgets in 2012, coupled with a better S&C program, our injuries will hopefully decrease.

[No 1 Manning Fan]

I saw a few random things about the Colts several years ago. One was on Dwight Freeney. I forget who was featured in the other one. Anyway, they mentioned the Colts S&C program. He had them doing a lot of Crossfit style nonesense.

What studies have you read or done that suggest that traditional weightlifting is superior to Crossfit in developing strength and preventing injuries?

[doogansquest]

What studies have you read or done that suggest that traditional weightlifting is superior to Crossfit in developing strength and preventing injuries?

You pose a valid question, because there is no study to suggest which is more effective.

Troy Polamalu was on a traditional weights program, but was riddled with injuries throughout the early portion of his career. Less than two years ago, he actually cut back on the weights, and says he focused less on strength training in general. He decided to focus more on fundamental football, and has seen a drastic reduction in injuries, without dipping in production.

Guys who are weight training hard tend to carry more weight on their frame than they should, and become more recklessly aggressive in competition.

Our injuries probably had more to do with having smallish players staying on the field for 10 minutes at a time.

[NagelHausForge]

Why don't you ask Bob Sanders how lifting all those weights helped him prevent injuries... You have to have a solid mix of both weight training, aerobics and resilience training (such as yoga, etc).

I didn't play football in school but I did wrestle and those wrestlers that soley focused on weight training were always blowing bicepts or hamstrings. Our program split our S&C program into 3rds. weights/aerobics/resilience. All equal parts. I never suffered any major injuries during my wrestling days.

[GoGoColts]

What studies have you read or done that suggest that traditional weightlifting is superior to Crossfit in developing strength and preventing injuries?

Cross fit itself is built on junks science and is a fad. You will see some legitimate strength coaches use similar elements, but it's not Crossfit if you don't buy into the philosopy. Here is something from yahoo. http://health.yahoo.net/articles/fitness/inside-cult-crossfit

Crossfit is full of disingenuous claims. The article eludes to it, but does not state it explicitly. one of their claims is that Crossfit, a conditiong workout is superior to building muscle than a bodybuilding style program in the absence of steroids. This is patently false. The experts in this article support that. Crossfit is not the best way to just add some muscle!

From what I understood, the Colts were doing a lot of conditiong style training and not doing any standard weights really. Those programs are fine if it is put into the context of complete routines. Periodization is the key.

In any event, the results that the Colts had is pretty clear. Another way to look it it is to look around at the S& C in college football. You won't see crossfit gurus running S&C at bigtime programs. The weight training is pretty standard. Crossfitters are religated to training athletes at Roast Beef Tech and Hot Dog University.

[GoGoColts]

Why don't you ask Bob Sanders how lifting all those weights helped him prevent injuries... You have to have a solid mix of both weight training, aerobics and resilience training (such as yoga, etc).

I didn't play football in school but I did wrestle and those wrestlers that soley focused on weight training were always blowing bicepts or hamstrings. Our program split our S&C program into 3rds. weights/aerobics/resilience. All equal parts. I never suffered any major injuries during my wrestling days.

Periodization is the optimum. I agree 100% However, Concerning Bob All those weights? Bob was a Colt. I think that they were doing a lot of hybrid conditiiong programs that involved weights, but not strict weight training. They were doing a lot of icing with no cake so to speak. Hence all the injuries.

[NagelHausForge]

To look at Bob Sanders you can tell he spend a lot of time, too much if you ask me, in the gym lifting weights... He had too much muscle for his frame... which made him prone to injury... Hence tendons being torn in his bicepts and what not.

[GoGoColts]

To look at Bob Sanders you can tell he spend a lot of time, too much if you ask me, in the gym lifting weights... He had too much muscle for his frame... which made him prone to injury... Hence tendons being torn in his bicepts and what not.

I see Bob as just ain injury prone guy. I doubt that he was lifting weights any differently than other Colts. Although, it's possible.

[No 1 Manning Fan]

Cross fit itself is built on junks science and is a fad. You will see some legitimate strength coaches use similar elements, but it's not Crossfit if you don't buy into the philosopy. Here is something from yahoo. http://health.yahoo.net/articles/fitness/inside-cult-crossfit

Crossfit is full of disingenuous claims. The article eludes to it, but does not state it explicitly. one of their claims is that Crossfit, a conditiong workout is superior to building muscle than a bodybuilding style program in the absence of steroids. This is patently false. The experts in this article support that. Crossfit is not the best way to just add some muscle!

From what I understood, the Colts were doing a lot of conditiong style training and not doing any standard weights really. Those programs are fine if it is put into the context of complete routines. Periodization is the key.

In any event, the results that the Colts had is pretty clear. Another way to look it it is to look around at the S& C in college football. You won't see crossfit gurus running S&C at bigtime programs. The weight training is pretty standard. Crossfitters are religated to training athletes at Roast Beef Tech and Hot Dog University.

That is not exactly exhaustive research, it is one guy's anecdotal ecidence. I will concede that the randomness and lack of rest periods do not seem conducive to football fitness. However, there are some elements of Crossfit in the article that I prefer over a standard weightlifting programming that emphasizes bodybuilding over power. The Olympic lifts and plyometrics are great power builders. That type of power is more useful to a football player because it teaches explosive movements. It is a fast game that doesn't allow for slow muscle contraction, which is trained by traditional weightlifting. It requires quick, powerful moves.

[JWF]

I won't pretend to know anything about our previous S&C coach and his programs, but I do know we've been the most injury riddled team the last three years, and a change was needed there.

Im sure the S&C had something to do with it. I always felt having a team of smaller, less physical players played a role. Bad luck is always a big contributor to injuries too obviously.

[Boiler_Colt]

To look at Bob Sanders you can tell he spend a lot of time, too much if you ask me, in the gym lifting weights... He had too much muscle for his frame... which made him prone to injury... Hence tendons being torn in his bicepts and what not.

I think steroids probably had something to do with that. Very common occurrences for juicers.

[wordofmouth]

That is not exactly exhaustive research, it is one guy's anecdotal ecidence. I will concede that the randomness and lack of rest periods do not seem conducive to football fitness. However, there are some elements of Crossfit in the article that I prefer over a standard weightlifting programming that emphasizes bodybuilding over power. The Olympic lifts and plyometrics are great power builders. That type of power is more useful to a football player because it teaches explosive movements. It is a fast game that doesn't allow for slow muscle contraction, which is trained by traditional weightlifting. It requires quick, powerful moves.

You are exactly right!

[GoGoColts]

That is not exactly exhaustive research, it is one guy's anecdotal ecidence. I will concede that the randomness and lack of rest periods do not seem conducive to football fitness. However, there are some elements of Crossfit in the article that I prefer over a standard weightlifting programming that emphasizes bodybuilding over power. The Olympic lifts and plyometrics are great power builders. That type of power is more useful to a football player because it teaches explosive movements. It is a fast game that doesn't allow for slow muscle contraction, which is trained by traditional weightlifting. It requires quick, powerful moves.

I don't care to do an exhaustive search because it matters to me about zero if you believe me. Crossfit uses mostly legitimate exercises. The problem is that that Crossfit it'self is built on one man's research that also isn't exhaustive. Crossfit is pseudo science, on a surface level it seems valid as it has trappings of what proper training should be, but the exercises are poorly taught, sequenced, and the people in it are programmed to avoid seeking legitimate information.

For example, get on youtube and you will see a lot of exercises that people are performing because they have unusual joint flexibility or are basically double jointed. They have no conception about how to train someone into some of those positions. Do a youtube search.

[doogansquest]

That is not exactly exhaustive research, it is one guy's anecdotal ecidence. I will concede that the randomness and lack of rest periods do not seem conducive to football fitness. However, there are some elements of Crossfit in the article that I prefer over a standard weightlifting programming that emphasizes bodybuilding over power. The Olympic lifts and plyometrics are great power builders. That type of power is more useful to a football player because it teaches explosive movements. It is a fast game that doesn't allow for slow muscle contraction, which is trained by traditional weightlifting. It requires quick, powerful moves.

Well said.

I don't care to do an exhaustive search because it matters to me about zero if you believe me. Crossfit uses mostly legitimate exercises. The problem is that that Crossfit it'self is built on one man's research that also isn't exhaustive. Crossfit is pseudo science, on a surface level it seems valid as it has trappings of what proper training should be, but the exercises are poorly taught, sequenced, and the people in it are programmed to avoid seeking legitimate information.

For example, get on youtube and you will see a lot of exercises that people are performing because they have unusual joint flexibility or are basically double jointed. They have no conception about how to train someone into some of those positions. Do a youtube search.

Which is it? Junk science, or pseudo science? Two very different things. Also keep in mind, this is the same model P90X is built on. These are fads, and are designed only for the short term. They are not life-long regimens. For most people, it gets them into manageable shape quickly. The avenues for explosive moves and respiratory stamina are there, however, and I imagine there were plenty of self-taught exercises among the players too. They spent time in weight rooms without the organized training, I'm sure.

And please stop telling people to do YouTube research. That will provide them nothing. It's less reliable than even Clinical trials, which can be performed by 2 people.

Study Anatomy and Physiology - not the theoretical, "evolutionary leftovers" ^cowpatties^, either, just the real, observable science: that will teach you more about the human body than any trainer. I've been studying it for 10 years. So much of what is out there is bad information, or designed for a very specific health status, body type, etc., but they become headlines and sound-bytes that people accept without researching it for themselves.

Sadly, what you have offered is no better. You are just accepting some guys' experience as proof of the falsehoods behind the program. The truth is, there are simpler, more effective ways for athletes to achieve desired results than a marathon of weights. Bulking up does not prevent injury, or necessarily make someone stronger. Every person's body type, metabolism, resting heart rate, and "twitch" has to be carefully examined to optimally utilize the cross bridges for strength and flexibility training.

Before this becomes a book, I will stop there and note that I'm glad we got a new S&C coordinator, as it follows the theme of cleaning out the coaches. Get them all in at the same time, forming the same brain trust, etc. But that doesn't mean that the last guy was THE reason for all of the injuries.

[HGRekks]

I posted this before, but nonetheless:

Article by Marandino about lifting

He's credited as a USWF Olympic Weightlifting coach, which is pretty stellar. I'm just curious about the conditioning side.

[chad72]

Brady Quinn looks like a LB, maybe he should focus on his QB mechanics and concepts instead of body building . I look at the other QBs and Tebow is built a bit like Brady Quinn too but then Tebow's style of QB play warrants a little extra strength because of his FB tendencies on the field.

I am just guessing that certain body types go well with certain positions, and so do certain muscles as well based on how they play.

How many conditioning programs actually emphasize on swimming as part of your conditioning? Just curious.

[No 1 Manning Fan]

I don't care to do an exhaustive search because it matters to me about zero if you believe me. Crossfit uses mostly legitimate exercises. The problem is that that Crossfit it'self is built on one man's research that also isn't exhaustive. Crossfit is pseudo science, on a surface level it seems valid as it has trappings of what proper training should be, but the exercises are poorly taught, sequenced, and the people in it are programmed to avoid seeking legitimate information.

For example, get on youtube and you will see a lot of exercises that people are performing because they have unusual joint flexibility or are basically double jointed. They have no conception about how to train someone into some of those positions. Do a youtube search.

I'm not defending Crossfit, I'm saying you haven't done enough research for your opinion to be worth jack squat. I tried to phrase it nicely the first time. You can say you don't like it and discuss it, but you are dismissing it out of hand. I read your article and I commented on the ARTICLE not being exhaustive or empirical. You are getting defensive because this article is not an expert analysis, rather one guy's experience.

I am not arguing that Crossfit is the way to go or not. I have not seen any research that links Crossfit to injuries, which you alluded to in your first post.

I was trying to have a real discussion about this and see if you knew something about Crossfit and any links to injury, but apparently conjecture and hearsay are good enough for you.

[chrisfarley]

I won't pretend to know anything about our previous S&C coach and his programs, but I do know we've been the most injury riddled team the last three years, and a change was needed there.

Once we lost our S&C coach to VP of Sales, we went downhill with injuries. Just look up the injury stats since he left. Coincidental, I don't know, I hope this is a breath of fresh air.

[No 1 Manning Fan]

Here is a quote from Navy Times entitled, 'Lawsuit alleges CrossFit workout damaging'

BY BRYAN MITCHELL - STAFF WRITER | POSTED : SATURDAY AUG 16, 2008 8:55:43 EDT

http://www.navytimes.com/mobile/index.php?storyUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.navytimes.com%2Fnews%2F2008%2F08%2Fmarine_crossfit_081608w%2F

"Gray Cook, a physical therapist who consults with a host of NFL teams on strength and conditioning, said CrossFit is not dangerous unless performed by people not physically prepared for its intensity.

Cook stressed that he did not want to disparage CrossFit, and that the program has inherent benefits, such as keeping people active and preventing boredom by mixing up workouts. His concern is that novice participants don’t know what they’re getting into.

“Football players practice a lot more than they play for a reason,” Cook said. “You are not supposed to test drive the system as much as you tune it up.”

[GrizzColt]

I know of only 2 people/programs that I trust. The first one is Jack Lalanne, who basically invented the way we train for sports and the 2nd is the Phoenix Suns training dept. If you ever have time, read Jack Lalanne interviews and you'll see that he's the smartest dude that ever lifted a weight. He proved it by his feats of strength and the longevity with which he did it. The Phoenix Suns trainers are constantly being lauded as the best training dept in the NBA. Here is a link. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/paul_forrester/01/22/suns-trainers/index.html

[Coffeedrinker]

I think the the coach needed replacing because of the injuries, but one thing I will say about the Colts for the past several years is their stamina was top notch and it's one of the reasons why the Colts were able to have multiple 4th quarter comebacks. I hope the new guy develops a system that can maintain the stamina but increase injury prevention and strength.

[No 1 Manning Fan]

I think the the coach needed replacing because of the injuries, but one thing I will say about the Colts for the past several years is their stamina was top notch and it's one of the reasons why the Colts were able to have multiple 4th quarter comebacks. I hope the new guy develops a system that can maintain the stamina but increase injury prevention and strength.

I completely agree. The players have to stay healthy. That's why I would love to see a program that emphasizes flexibility. In sports, strength is no good without flexibility. Flexibility allows for fluid movement and helps protect against strained muscles and sprains because the body is already used to moving through the full range of motion.

I would also like to see a program that teaches people how to protect themselves when taking a hit or falling, but I am probably getting a little greedy there. It just seems like a football team could afford to bring in some judo or Greco-roman wrestling experts to teach players how to protect themselves from harm during a collision or take down.

[GoGoColts]

Well said.

Which is it? Junk science, or pseudo science? Two very different things. Also keep in mind, this is the same model P90X is built on. These are fads, and are designed only for the short term. They are not life-long regimens. For most people, it gets them into manageable shape quickly. The avenues for explosive moves and respiratory stamina are there, however, and I imagine there were plenty of self-taught exercises among the players too. They spent time in weight rooms without the organized training, I'm sure.

And please stop telling people to do YouTube research. That will provide them nothing. It's less reliable than even Clinical trials, which can be performed by 2 people.

Study Anatomy and Physiology - not the theoretical, "evolutionary leftovers" ^cowpatties^, either, just the real, observable science: that will teach you more about the human body than any trainer. I've been studying it for 10 years. So much of what is out there is bad information, or designed for a very specific health status, body type, etc., but they become headlines and sound-bytes that people accept without researching it for themselves.

Sadly, what you have offered is no better. You are just accepting some guys' experience as proof of the falsehoods behind the program. The truth is, there are simpler, more effective ways for athletes to achieve desired results than a marathon of weights. Bulking up does not prevent injury, or necessarily make someone stronger. Every person's body type, metabolism, resting heart rate, and "twitch" has to be carefully examined to optimally utilize the cross bridges for strength and flexibility training.

Before this becomes a book, I will stop there and note that I'm glad we got a new S&C coordinator, as it follows the theme of cleaning out the coaches. Get them all in at the same time, forming the same brain trust, etc. But that doesn't mean that the last guy was THE reason for all of the injuries.

Just to keep it simple. You are a horrible poster. You know nothing of statistics. I nearly burst out laughing when you claimed to work with statistical data every day. Anyhow, if you can't wrap your mind around the idea that junk science and pseudo science are synomous, you should drop out of the conversation as it is over your head. What could you learn from a clinical trial with your complete lack of knowlege of statistics? LOL... If you can't use youtube to look at the performance of unqualifed Crossfitters, it is another reason for you to drop from the conversation.

[GoGoColts]

Here is a quote from Navy Times entitled, 'Lawsuit alleges CrossFit workout damaging'

BY BRYAN MITCHELL - STAFF WRITER | POSTED : SATURDAY AUG 16, 2008 8:55:43 EDT

http://www.navytimes...sfit_081608w%2F

"Gray Cook, a physical therapist who consults with a host of NFL teams on strength and conditioning, said CrossFit is not dangerous unless performed by people not physically prepared for its intensity.

Cook stressed that he did not want to disparage CrossFit, and that the program has inherent benefits, such as keeping people active and preventing boredom by mixing up workouts. His concern is that novice participants don’t know what they’re getting into.

“Football players practice a lot more than they play for a reason,” Cook said. “You are not supposed to test drive the system as much as you tune it up.”

Still it is founded on essentially junk science and administered by unqualified trainers. Just look at a few youtube videos and you can see that if you ever exercised in your life. Most "Crossfit" exercises in the hands of qualified trainers at top facilities service it's clientel well. it's the low rent unqualified crossfitters that are the problem.

[WSO]

CrossFit is a complete fad. The biggest knock against CrossFit is "newbies" are taught to do exercises with poor form which results in major injuries. Yes the exercises are legitimate and DO get you in shape but it is based on a total different philosophy. It's targeted for "newbies" or people looking to get into shape.

This for example is completely hilarious:

If you train the WODs hard, and eat right and get lots of sleep, you will definitely gain lean mass, lose fat, and yes, you can build muscle mass with the crossfit protocol. More specifically, according to Coach,

Here is a hierarchy of training for mass from greater to lesser efficacy:

1. Bodybuilding on steroids

2. CrossFitting on steroids

3. CrossFitting without steroids

4. Bodybuilding without steroids

The bodybuilding model is designed around, requires, steroids for significant hypertrophy.

The neuroendocrine response of bodybuilding protocols is so blunted that without "exogenous hormonal therapy" little happens.

The CrossFit protocol is designed to elicit a substantial neuroendocrine whollop and hence packs an anabolic punch that puts on impressive amounts of muscle though that is not our concern. Strength is.

Natural bodybuilders (the natural ones that are not on steroids) never approach the mass that our ahtletes do. They don't come close.

Those athletes who train for function end up with better form than those who value form over function. This is one of the beautiful ironies of training.

complete bull^chiz^

[GoGoColts]

CrossFit is a complete fad. The biggest knock against CrossFit is "newbies" are taught to do exercises with poor form which results in major injuries. Yes the exercises are legitimate and DO get you in shape but it is based on a total different philosophy. It's targeted for "newbies" or people looking to get into shape.

This for example is completely hilarious:

complete bull^chiz^

That is precisly my point. Their coaches only go to weekend certifications which is why it is so bad. I think that they coaches spend a lot of time bad-mouthing legitimate training so that the newbies that survive are totally brainwashed.

[Coffeedrinker]

Once we lost our S&C coach to VP of Sales, we went downhill with injuries. Just look up the injury stats since he left. Coincidental, I don't know, I hope this is a breath of fresh air.

I agree 100%, Zup was awesome.

[GoGoColts]

I posted this before, but nonetheless:

Article by Marandino about lifting

He's credited as a USWF Olympic Weightlifting coach, which is pretty stellar. I'm just curious about the conditioning side.

That's legit.

[No 1 Manning Fan]

Still it is founded on essentially junk science and administered by unqualified trainers. Just look at a few youtube videos and you can see that if you ever exercised in your life. Most "Crossfit" exercises in the hands of qualified trainers at top facilities service it's clientel well. it's the low rent unqualified crossfitters that are the problem.

I have extensively searched out the best w

[Restored]

As long as he can get players into better condition so they stop getting hurt so much it doesnt matter what workout program he implements.

[No 1 Manning Fan]

Still it is founded on essentially junk science and administered by unqualified trainers. Just look at a few youtube videos and you can see that if you ever exercised in your life. Most "Crossfit" exercises in the hands of qualified trainers at top facilities service it's clientel well. it's the low rent unqualified crossfitters that are the problem.

I have extensively searched out the best workouts because I have injured myself working out and playing sports. I have had physical therapists and personal trainers. So, I do have an eye for good form and good teaching. I have also seen an excellent Crossfit instructor that has successfully trained numerous mma fighters, practitioners of jiu jitsu, judo, high school wrestlers, football players, and competitive olympic style weightlifters. I've personally seen him in action. The sessions were difficult but they were safe and proper form was taught. I'm not saying that is typical. That was just one session. I will say that I saw a lot of positive results from the workouts in the physique and stamina in the fighters at my dojo. It just didn't fit into my schedule or my budget.

I don't have a dog in this race. I could really care less if crossfit is legit or not. However, you can't just make a blanket statement that all of the trainers train wrecklessly and don't look after the safety of their trainees. You are taking a few YouTube videos and an article as empirical data and it is not.

Furthermore, it was your assertion that Crossfit may have been responsible for Colts being injured. I pointed you to a legal case with expert opinions and in the opinion of a therapist, Crossfit should not be dangerous to people who are as physically fit as football players.

Like I said in response to another poster, I am glad to see someone fresh come in because whatever was going on was not working. I hope that the new regimen will help keep players on the field. However, I am not going to blame it all on Crossfit unless I see some hard data. And watching some YouTube video is not is not going to provide that. So pardon me if I don't find your YouTube argument to be conclusive.

[No 1 Manning Fan]

CrossFit is a complete fad. The biggest knock against CrossFit is "newbies" are taught to do exercises with poor form which results in major injuries. Yes the exercises are legitimate and DO get you in shape but it is based on a total different philosophy. It's targeted for "newbies" or people looking to get into shape.

This for example is completely hilarious:

complete bull^chiz^

I agree with you here. It is complete crap. The way Crossfit workouts by nature burn calories and even begin to burn muscle. By the nature of the workout, hypertophy, which is needed to bulk up for bodybuilding, won't occur. However, a tight "ripped" physique is possible.

But, a bodybuilder's physique is not the goal of athletes. It is more important to workout for functional strength and explosive power.

I am not advocating Crossfit. I am advocating power lifting, core stability, endurance, and flexibility. Those form the physical foundation for an athlete of a contact sport.