Manning/Gruden

[dudley dawson]

Is there anyone who would prefer we keep the status quo (Grigson/Pagano) than roll the dice on Manning/Gruden?  I'm holding out hope Jim is working on one or both of them to take over, hence the silence.

[Jackie Daytona]

Assuming Manning wants to GM, and he wants Gruden to Coach his team, and Gruden wants to coach the Colts........ Sure, I'd be happy with giving it a shot

[1959Colts]

5 minutes ago, dudley dawson said:

...  I'm holding out hope Jim is working on one or both of them to take over, hence the silence.

 

Or, like the ostrich, Jim Irsay has buried his head in the sand.

[YourNextGM]

Why torture youself with hope? Grigano will return.  

[corgi]

There's a better chance of me being shot out of a cannon than Manning/Gruden happening.

[tikyle]

20 minutes ago, dudley dawson said:

Is there anyone who would prefer we keep the status quo (Grigson/Pagano) than roll the dice on Manning/Gruden?  I'm holding out hope Jim is working on one or both of them to take over, hence the silence.

 

Why Gruden?  I don't mind giving Manning a shot at GM but why would you want Gruden as HC?  He hasn't won a playoff game since the SB in what 2002 (with Dungy's guys).  I'd rather try a new guy.  Any new guy over a (super) old retread like Gruden.  This retread culture in pro sports coaching needs to stop.  In what other profession do people continually hire people who were fired doing that same exact job recently?  Not contract not renewed but flat out fired.  Yet gets a new job the next year.  Only in pro sports.

[Coffeedrinker]

Yes, I would rather have Grigs/Pags than Manning/Gruden.  Gruden was a good coach but not a great one and very similar to Pags in that, if he has all the pieces in place he can motivate them to win but if he's missing some pieces he cannot maximize the team's strength plus he doesn't sound like he misses coaching at all.  Manning has no experience; running a football organization, scouting, managing the salary cap, building a football team, etc.  He needs some experience before thrusting him into a GM role.

[dudley dawson]

2 minutes ago, tikyle said:

 

Why Gruden?  I don't mind giving Manning a shot at GM but why would you want Gruden as HC?  He hasn't won a playoff game since the SB in what 2002 (with Dungy's guys).  I'd rather try a new guy.  Any new guy over a (super) old retread like Gruden.  This retread culture in pro sports coaching needs to stop.  In what other profession do people continually hire people who were fired doing that same exact job recently?  Not contract not renewed but flat out fired.  Yet gets a new job the next year.  Only in pro sports.

Because Gruden is proven and MUCH better than Pagano.  I would rather hire him than an unproven assistant.

[#12.]

If he's waiting on a combo, to me, Peyton/Payton seems more likely, but would I take Chuck(ie) over Chuck?  Yes.

[buccolts]

Both of their contracts were extended last off season.

I'm certain that, if justified, Jim wouldn't hesitate to can either, or both.

HOWEVER, since the extentions:

- Has Grigson done a worse job?

- Has Pagano done a worse job?

 

I can't see where Grigson has done a worse job than prior to the extension.

 

I could make a case where Pagano has done a worse job, or at least the same job. However, they also brought in a number of new coaches, and it takes time to make those adjustments. The OL got better. Luck had a good season, but I saw no improvement on the defense. Play calling is suspect.

 

My guess is Grigson stays.

Pagano may keep his job, but there may be a little bit of shuffling of the coaching staff (new OC, WR coach, etc?).

 

That's my logic, but it could be all blown out of the water if there's stuff going on behind the scenes that we're not aware of.

[OffensivelyPC]

Pretty much everyone should want to keep who we have rather than hand the keys over to a guy with zero experience and another who's been out of the league as a coach for 8 years.  I get people want change - but let's not get silly with it.

[tikyle]

Just now, dudley dawson said:

Because Gruden is proven and MUCH better than Pagano.  I would rather hire him than an unproven assistant.

Being better than Pagano is not hard but it is accurate.  But Gruden was proven in 2002's NFL (not much after and certainly) not 2016's NFL.  We need NEW BLOOD.  We have a young team.  We need a young, energetic coach that can connect with these millennials.

[Coltfreak]

Awesome.  Another thread where we can discuss the exact same thing again 

[Coffeedrinker]

6 minutes ago, dudley dawson said:

Because Gruden is proven and MUCH better than Pagano.  I would rather hire him than an unproven assistant.

Really?  How has he proven that?  I'm not a big Pagano fan but Gruden has a 54% winning percentage (51% with Tampa) and a 5-4 playoff record.  Pagano on the other hand has a 61% winning percentage and is 3-3 in the playoffs

 

There are a lot of coaches better than Pagano... Gruden is not one of them.

[Jdubu]

6 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Yes, I would rather have Grigs/Pags than Manning/Gruden.  Gruden was a good coach but not a great one and very similar to Pags in that, if he has all the pieces in place he can motivate them to win but if he's missing some pieces he cannot maximize the team's strength plus he doesn't sound like he misses coaching at all.  Manning has no experience; running a football organization, scouting, managing the salary cap, building a football team, etc.  He needs some experience before thrusting him into a GM role.

This is spot on!! I don't understand the Gruden fascination, when was the last season he actually coached? Manning was a great great QB but what makes anyone believe he has any idea how to construct a team and evaluate talents of anyone besides a QB or maybe WR? I almost want to see Grigson stay and look at another top level coach to take over for Pagano and then get another OC too. 

[jskinnz]

29 minutes ago, 1959Colts said:

 

Or, like the ostrich, Jim Irsay has buried his head in the sand.

 

If the silence means maintaining the status quo and no changes are coming, it will absolutely not be due to Irsay having his head in the sand.  

[dudley dawson]

1 minute ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Really?  How has he proven that?  I'm not a big Pagano fan but Gruden has a 54% winning percentage (51% with Tampa) and a 5-4 playoff record.  Pagano on the other hand has a 61% winning percentage and is 3-3 in the playoffs

 

There are a lot of coaches better than Pagano... Gruden is not one of them.

When did Gruden have a QB as talented as Luck?  It's obvious Luck (and a dreadful AFC South) made Pagano look competent.  Anyone objective can see Gruden is superior (he built a contender with Oakland and then won it all with TB - which I give him (not Dungy) credit for).

[Coffeedrinker]

1 minute ago, dudley dawson said:

When did Gruden have a QB as talented as Luck?  It's obvious Luck (and a dreadful AFC South) made Pagano look competent.  Anyone objective can see Gruden is superior (he built a contender with Oakland and then won it all with TB - which I give him (not Dungy) credit for).

When did Pagano ever have a D as talented at the Bucs?  And it could be argued that Rich Gannon in Oakland and then Brad Johnson in Tampa in their prime were as good as Luck is now.

 

Plus you can't really give Gruden credit for Oakland being a SB contender and then not give Dungy credit for doing the same in Tampa... Oakland didn't reach the SB until Gruden left.

[21isSuperman]

21 minutes ago, tikyle said:

 

Why Gruden?  I don't mind giving Manning a shot at GM but why would you want Gruden as HC?  He hasn't won a playoff game since the SB in what 2002 (with Dungy's guys).  I'd rather try a new guy.  Any new guy over a (super) old retread like Gruden.  This retread culture in pro sports coaching needs to stop.  In what other profession do people continually hire people who were fired doing that same exact job recently?  Not contract not renewed but flat out fired.  Yet gets a new job the next year.  Only in pro sports.

You'd rather give Manning a shot at GM when he has 0 previous experience in that role, but don't want to give Gruden a chance when he's won a Super Bowl as a head coach?

 

People can learn from their mistakes.  Bill Belichick was head coach of the Browns, Pete Carroll was head coach of the Patriots and Jets, Parcells got fired from multiple places.  Josh McDaniels has a lot of hype around him even though he ran Denver into the ground.  Someone getting fired doesn't always mean he's a bad coach

[1959Colts]

10 minutes ago, jskinnz said:

 

If the silence means maintaining the status quo and no changes are coming, it will absolutely not be due to Irsay having his head in the sand.  

How do you know what Irsay is thinking? Or doing?

He could very easily be unprepared or clueless as to what to do.

[dudley dawson]

4 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

When did Pagano ever have a D as talented at the Bucs?  And it could be argued that Rich Gannon in Oakland and then Brad Johnson in Tampa in their prime were as good as Luck is now.

 

Plus you can't really give Gruden credit for Oakland being a SB contender and then not give Dungy credit for doing the same in Tampa... Oakland didn't reach the SB until Gruden left.

For being a defensive coach, Pagano has built an embarrassment of a defense.  Is he all to blame? No, but I guarantee a more competent coach could get a better performance out of this group.  So what exactly is Pagano good for?  He's a cheerleader and cannot game-plan worth a damn.

 

I give Dungy credit for building a contender, but he didn't win with them.  Gruden did.

[#12.]

2 minutes ago, tikyle said:

We have a young team.  We need a young, energetic coach that can connect with these millennials.

Historically, the most successful coaches in college and the NFL - Belichick, Walsh, Lombardi, Saban, etc. - were demanding taskmasters who irritated and rubbed people the wrong way... and didn't care.  They weren't out to make friends. Peyton loved to quote Bill Walsh:  "Run the play right or get the **** off my field.  It's that simple."

 

I'm not worried about the coach being able to relate to the players.  A little irritation and discomfort would be a good thing for this team.

[21isSuperman]

1 minute ago, Coffeedrinker said:

When did Pagano ever have a D as talented at the Bucs?  And it could be argued that Rich Gannon in Oakland and then Brad Johnson in Tampa in their prime were as good as Luck is now.

 

Plus you can't really give Gruden credit for Oakland being a SB contender and then not give Dungy credit for doing the same in Tampa... Oakland didn't reach the SB until Gruden left.

When did Pagano coach a defense as well as the Bucs D was coached? 

 

Brad Johnson only once eclipsed 4000 passing yards, he never passed for more than 26 TDs in a season, he never had more than 140 rushing yards in a season.  He was never in the conversation for league MVP.  At no point in his career was Brad Johnson was good as Luck is now

 

Oakland went 4-12 in 1997.  Gruden came in and they didn't have a single losing season.  Not only that, but if the refs called the Tuck Rule correctly, Gruden could have won the Super Bowl that year.  Gruden not only helped Tampa beat Philly, which Dungy couldn't do, but also helped game plan almost perfectly for Gannon in the Super Bowl.

[jskinnz]

Just now, 1959Colts said:

How do you know what Irsay is thinking? Or doing?

He could very easily be unprepared or clueless as to what to do.

 

One of my pet peeves is people on here inferring they know what someone else is thinking.  So to your point above - you are correct.  I have no personal info that suggests that Irsay is engaged or not.  But everything that I hear from people in the know - Venturi, local media, people I know on 56th St - suggests that he is not unaware of what is going on with his team.   He knows.

 

So I would suggest that your sentiment that he has his head in the sand more likely means that he must be clueless because he has not done yet what YOU want him to do.  It is entirely possible he just disagrees with you, shocking as that may be.

[tikyle]

1 minute ago, 21isSuperman said:

You'd rather give Manning a shot at GM when he has 0 previous experience in that role, but don't want to give Gruden a chance when he's won a Super Bowl as a head coach?

 

People can learn from their mistakes.  Bill Belichick was head coach of the Browns, Pete Carroll was head coach of the Patriots and Jets, Parcells got fired from multiple places.  Josh McDaniels has a lot of hype around him even though he ran Denver into the ground.  Someone getting fired doesn't always mean he's a bad coach

 

You make a point but all those guys you named worked on their craft until they got another shot.  Gruden has been gas bagging in a TV booth since he's last coached.  He hasn't had to deal with a new age of athlete.  A new age of defense.  A new age of offense.  A new age of less talented or less developed offensive lineman.  A new age of most players (offensively) coming from a spread offense background.

 

My thing is I'd rather try new blood then trying a retread just because we know their name.  And most retreads fail.  There are only a handful of Carroll's and Belichick's.  Parcell's was fired b/c of his interpersonal skills, not his coaching acumen.  For ever Pete Carroll there are 10-15 Mike Mularkey, Shanahan, Jeff Fisher, Eric Mangini, Rex Ryan, Hue Jackson, etc.

[21isSuperman]

Just now, #12. said:

Historically, the most successful coaches in college and the NFL - Belichick, Walsh, Lombardi, Saban, etc. - were demanding taskmasters who irritated and rubbed people the wrong way... and didn't care.  They weren't out to make friends. Peyton loved to quote Bill Walsh:  "Run the play right or get the **** off my field.  It's that simple."

 

I'm not worried about the coach being able to relate to the players.  A little irritation and discomfort would be a good thing for this team.

I disagree.  Plenty of the NFL's successful coaches have different personalities.  Pete Carroll and Andy Reid, for example, are two guys noted as being player's coaches and being very friendly with the players.  It varies based on the guys you have in the locker room and what kind of environment you establish

[21isSuperman]

Just now, tikyle said:

 

You make a point but all those guys you named worked on their craft until they got another shot.  Gruden has been gas bagging in a TV booth since he's last coached.  He hasn't had to deal with a new age of athlete.  A new age of defense.  A new age of offense.  A new age of less talented or less developed offensive lineman.  A new age of most players (offensively) coming from a spread offense background.

 

My thing is I'd rather try new blood then trying a retread just because we know their name.  And most retreads fail.  There are only a handful of Carroll's and Belichick's.  Parcell's was fired b/c of his interpersonal skills, not his coaching acumen.  For ever Pete Carroll there are 10-15 Mike Mularkey, Shanahan, Jeff Fisher, Eric Mangini, Rex Ryan, Hue Jackson, etc.

Gruden has kept up with the game.  He studies film extensively and interviews some draft prospects every year.  For what it's worth, my only hesitation with giving Manning the GM role is he has no experience.  For all we know, he's the greatest GM in NFL history.  But he has 0 experience scouting college players, setting up a draft board, writing and managing contracts and the cap, working trades, etc.  If Irsay does want to bring him aboard, I would hope it's in an assistant role instead of giving him total control

[tikyle]

2 minutes ago, #12. said:

Historically, the most successful coaches in college and the NFL - Belichick, Walsh, Lombardi, Saban, etc. - were demanding taskmasters who irritated and rubbed people the wrong way... and didn't care.  They weren't out to make friends. Peyton loved to quote Bill Walsh:  "Run the play right or get the **** off my field.  It's that simple."

 

I'm not worried about the coach being able to relate to the players.  A little irritation and discomfort would be a good thing for this team.

 

You can still connect with your players and be a taskmaster.  See Mike Tomlin, Tom Coughlin (in NY), John Harbaugh, etc.  Today's coach has to connect with the guys as well.  Bill's run in NE is coming to an end.  You see he has problems now keeping young guys.  At some point he will not be able to scheme his way out of not keeping his top talent.  And you see how he treats Gronk.  He let's him be him b/c he knows he HAS to have that guy.  Trust me, connecting with these young fellas is an essential part of coaching in these days.

[#12.]

Just now, 21isSuperman said:

I disagree.  Plenty of the NFL's successful coaches have different personalities.  Pete Carroll and Andy Reid, for example, are two guys noted as being player's coaches and being very friendly with the players.  It varies based on the guys you have in the locker room and what kind of environment you establish

I said the "most successful."  Andy Reid wouldn't exactly qualify.  Pete Carrol might be the best example of what you were going for, but still several steps down.  

[21isSuperman]

1 minute ago, #12. said:

I said the "most successful."  Andy Reid wouldn't exactly qualify.  Pete Carrol might be the best example of what you were going for, but still several steps down.  

Even Belichick isn't strictly authoritarian.  He takes input from established vets, like Brady, when game planning.  It isn't a case of "listen to me or get off the team".  If you've earned your stripes, he will listen to your input

[CoachLite]

IF it were going to be Manning (GM) and Gruden (HC), I hope they are getting together (with Irsay) to see if this was going to be a philosophical and cultural fit, and figure out if they could work well together. This may be why it is taking Irsay soooo long to respond. If that's the reason, that's a VERY good reason.

[Coffeedrinker]

9 minutes ago, 21isSuperman said:

When did Pagano coach a defense as well as the Bucs D was coached? 

 

Brad Johnson only once eclipsed 4000 passing yards, he never passed for more than 26 TDs in a season, he never had more than 140 rushing yards in a season.  He was never in the conversation for league MVP.  At no point in his career was Brad Johnson was good as Luck is now

 

Oakland went 4-12 in 1997.  Gruden came in and they didn't have a single losing season.  Not only that, but if the refs called the Tuck Rule correctly, Gruden could have won the Super Bowl that year.  Gruden not only helped Tampa beat Philly, which Dungy couldn't do, but also helped game plan almost perfectly for Gannon in the Super Bowl.

Pagano has never had a losing season either.

 

Also Gruden won the SB with Dungy's D, the changes he made were on the offensive side of the ball.  That was one of the issues with Gruden, as the Dungy defensive players started leaving he and the GM were not able to build the D.

[21isSuperman]

1 minute ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Pagano has never had a losing season either.

 

Also Gruden won the SB with Dungy's D, the changes he made were on the offensive side of the ball.  That was one of the issues with Gruden, as the Dungy defensive players started leaving he and the GM were not able to build the D.

If Gruden won with Dungy's defense, why didn't Dungy win with them?

[Steamboat_Shaun]

2 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Pagano has never had a losing season either.

 

Also Gruden won the SB with Dungy's D, the changes he made were on the offensive side of the ball.  That was one of the issues with Gruden, as the Dungy defensive players started leaving he and the GM were not able to build the D.

 

Didn't Gruden have full control in Tampa?

[Coffeedrinker]

Just now, 21isSuperman said:

If Gruden won with Dungy's defense, why didn't Dungy win with them?

Because Dungy couldn't build up the offense well enough.  Why do you think it was a condition of him coming to Indy was that the offense was to remain as it was, same OC, same oline coach.

 

My word you're a smarter football fan than that.

[Coffeedrinker]

1 minute ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

Didn't Gruden have full control in Tampa?

No.  McKay was the GM in Tampa and then Bruce Allen

[buccolts]

8 minutes ago, CoachLite said:

IF it were going to be Manning (GM) and Gruden (HC), I hope they are getting together (with Irsay) to see if this was going to be a philosophical and cultural fit, and figure out if they could work well together. This may be why it is taking Irsay soooo long to respond. If that's the reason, that's a VERY good reason.

 

They'd also need to check with their wives, and they may all be working today.

[krunk]

10 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Pagano has never had a losing season either.

 

Also Gruden won the SB with Dungy's D, the changes he made were on the offensive side of the ball.  That was one of the issues with Gruden, as the Dungy defensive players started leaving he and the GM were not able to build the D.

They sure were not able to build the D.  To me things got worse the longer Gruden stayed.  Don't know how much of that was on him.  Personnel got worse and the coaching wasnt that great to me either.

[tikyle]

-Gruden took a team on the cusp to over the hump.

 

-Pagano took a team in the dumpster to on the cusp.

 

All in all I'd say that's about even.  I mean one guy has a ring but to me that is more circumstanial than anything.  Gruden did not sustain that success in Tampa and quite honestly he was average to below average there after his first season.  His career in Oakland was like the reverse Pagano.  His first two seasons he was 8-8.  After that 3 winning seasons with the 2nd season ending in a SB appearance.  This guys is a broadcaster.  He has 11 years HC experience and 9 years and counting broadcast experience.  He's a broadcaster now.

[21isSuperman]

50 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Because Dungy couldn't build up the offense well enough.  Why do you think it was a condition of him coming to Indy was that the offense was to remain as it was, same OC, same oline coach.

 

My word you're a smarter football fan than that.

At the end of the day, Gruden won the Super Bowl with the Bucs and Dungy didn't.  Dungy wasn't able to beat Philly, but Gruden beat them en route to a championship.