The charge against the Colts: MEDIOCRITY

[Gyworks]

After the dust is settled and all the fury and frustration of the season calmed down maybe it's worth to look back and speculate on the reasons what could possibly go wrong and how we were able to miss the playoffs for the second time in a row with arguably one of the best QBs of our time. I'm eager to hear about your thoughts and here you have mines.

I think the Colts failed because the mediocrity has been more and more tolerated in the past years. The draftees of our front office and some of the FAs became indeed starters in a relative large percentage but would they actually be starters on other playoff teams' rosters? I doubt it, they are rather just serviceable guys with 'horseshoe' character but they played mediocre and inconsistent football for us.

How about the coaching? Tell me how you felt when Pagano clapped after the missed fake field goal in Oakland or when he just listened to the justifications of Allen after the personal foul penalty instead of letting him shut up and benching him right away. Mistakes like that should be unacceptable for a HC. It's nice to have a good group of guys and a sort of family in the locker room but that's what you get when you pat the back of your players after they made mistakes: more mistakes. When you accept mediocre play justified by 'the effort was there' you will get more mediocre play.

Once I heard Mr. Irsay to call the dynasty of the Patriots as a model for success. Then maybe he should also force our FO and the coaches to follow Belichick's cruel mindset on mistakes and mediocrity. If our owner, the GM and the HC don’t expect perfectly excellent execution from the players on every play they won’t get it. As long as they tolerate the missed blocks, the missed tackles, the fumbles and interceptions they will see them on the field. As long as they set the priority of the draft board on character instead of talent they will get the Bjoerns and Thortons instead of playmakers. As long as the Colts tolerate mediocrity in our house it will slowly but steadily infiltrate every football operation. Let’s just hope that the ownership recognizes and fights it sooner rather than later.

 

[azcolt]

Colts are mediocre? We wish. Remember that .500 records in the pathetic AFC South translates to 7-9 or worse in any other division. Mediocrity would be an improvement.

[NannyMcafee]

Reggie Wayne dropped a lot of footballs his rookie season. You know how he stopped that? Practicing. Something that can't be ignored is this team doesn't practice enough, and their play makes that obvious. There is a lack of emotion when they fail, and over the top celebrations when a play succeeds (like it's supposed to?). 

 

The point is, professionals are supposed to want to be the best at that position. I know that everything I do I do to the best of my ability, and I want to be the best at it over everyone else, and you know what? More times than not I succeed. 

 

The problem isnt that we are getting character guys, colts guys. the problem is we have a head coach who doesn't want to be the best there is. If he did, we would see a completely different product on the field on Sunday's. 

 

everyone who makes excuses for this regime doesn't want to be the best they can be. The reason that the manning era was so special is because Peyton manning practiced to he the best there could be. Tony dungy wanted to be the best. Bill polian wanted to be the best. And it showed. I'm not saying Peyton manning didn't have a large portion to do with the other guys success, but Peyton was a leader, a leader that wanted to be the best, and it rubbed off on the entire team. 

 

As of right now we don't have any leaders on this team that want to be the best. Im tired of hearing excuses from fans and the organization alike. Excuses are something only losers use. I'm sorry but that's a fact whether you want to believe it or not. 

 

I have been a colts fan my entire life, and I have never been more angry at this organization. The acceptance of mediocrity is completely and utterly pathetic. 

[bluephantom87]

I agree but the problem lies with Irsay for allowing this duo to get 4yr extensions when the signs were starting to show in the last couple of seasons. The afc south is STILL putrid but the Titans and Texans have gotten a little better thus taking away the easy run from Chuck to the playoffs as the division champs while feasting on bottom feeders to pile on wins. (don't forget about Bruce's 9 wins adding to Chuck's overall win total) This is a team so FAR away from being a true SB contending team under this regime despite what some of the fans believe and it REALLY shows in the big games when everything is on the line. Take next week against the lowly Jags for instance in which the Colts will probably win to finish 8-8 (sounds like last years final against the lowly Titans) and Chuck will have them jumping around like they won the SB with the speech of how everyone counted them out but they fought till the end when no one believed in them blah blah.....

 

The sad part is that this team is regressing with no end in sight under this duo. Year 6 will bring the same ol same ol unless changes are made. The teams in the south will get better and push the Colts further down the ladder until next to or dead last will become the norm with no more excuses available. 

[Gyworks]

I couldn't agree more and I'm really fed up with all the Paganoisms 

[colts8718]

2 hours ago, Gyworks said:

After the dust is settled and all the fury and frustration of the season calmed down maybe it's worth to look back and speculate on the reasons what could possibly go wrong and how we were able to miss the playoffs for the second time in a row with arguably one of the best QBs of our time. I'm eager to hear about your thoughts and here you have mines.

 

I think the Colts failed because the mediocrity has been more and more tolerated in the past years. The draftees of our front office and some of the FAs became indeed starters in a relative large percentage but would they actually be starters on other playoff teams' rosters? I doubt it, they are rather just serviceable guys with 'horseshoe' character but they played mediocre and inconsistent football for us.

 

How about the coaching? Tell me how you felt when Pagano clapped after the missed fake field goal in Oakland or when he just listened to the justifications of Allen after the personal foul penalty instead of letting him shut up and benching him right away. Mistakes like that should be unacceptable for a HC. It's nice to have a good group of guys and a sort of family in the locker room but that's what you get when you pat the back of your players after they made mistakes: more mistakes. When you accept mediocre play justified by 'the effort was there' you will get more mediocre play.

 

Once I heard Mr. Irsay to call the dynasty of the Patriots as a model for success. Then maybe he should also force our FO and the coaches to follow Belichick's cruel mindset on mistakes and mediocrity. If our owner, the GM and the HC don’t expect perfectly excellent execution from the players on every play they won’t get it. As long as they tolerate the missed blocks, the missed tackles, the fumbles and interceptions they will see them on the field. As long as they set the priority of the draft board on character instead of talent they will get the Bjoerns and Thortons instead of playmakers. As long as the Colts tolerate mediocrity in our house it will slowly but steadily infiltrate every football operation. Let’s just hope that the ownership recognizes and fights it sooner rather than later.

 

 

There is a quote by Ed Sheeran  I can not tell you the key to success but the key to failure is trying to please everyone 

[Defjamz26]

5 hours ago, bluephantom87 said:

I agree but the problem lies with Irsay for allowing this duo to get 4yr extensions when the signs were starting to show in the last couple of seasons. The afc south is STILL putrid but the Titans and Texans have gotten a little better thus taking away the easy run from Chuck to the playoffs as the division champs while feasting on bottom feeders to pile on wins. (don't forget about Bruce's 9 wins adding to Chuck's overall win total) This is a team so FAR away from being a true SB contending team under this regime despite what some of the fans believe and it REALLY shows in the big games when everything is on the line. Take next week against the lowly Jags for instance in which the Colts will probably win to finish 8-8 (sounds like last years final against the lowly Titans) and Chuck will have them jumping around like they won the SB with the speech of how everyone counted them out but they fought till the end when no one believed in them blah blah.....

 

The sad part is that this team is regressing with no end in sight under this duo. Year 6 will bring the same ol same ol unless changes are made. The teams in the south will get better and push the Colts further down the ladder until next to or dead last will become the norm with no more excuses available. 

Well said. Especially the part In Bold. Regardless of how many QBs they got ready on a short week, I've never seen a team so exuberant to beat the team that went on to have the worst overall record in the NFL.

[southwest1]

I still am at a loss as to why Jimmy gave both Chuck & Ryan 4 yr extensions. I don't care how many tears were shed & profanity spoken behind closed doors. How bout just a 1 yr earn your keep extension Mr. Irsay? A multi-year deal? You have got to be kidding me? SMH. 

 

Get a HC & GM in here that won't get spanked by Pittsburgh, NE, or Baltimore. I don't know what's worse. Having Tennessee & Houston make strides forward or we clean the clock of Minnesota a team that we seldom see in a season. It feels good temporarily sure, but are they an AFC rival impeding our progress to a SB? Nope. 

 

The clapping at strange times, the same ole lines after a loss, & our lack of concentration just get under my skin more frequently now. If we didn't have Luck under center, we'd be so screwed as an organization. 

 

I've seen INDY dominate the Bengals, Broncos, & GB at times. I just wish we had complete games in all 3 phases more consistently. Of hades, if I'm being honest, I just want INDY to be viewed as a threat to Mike Tomlin & Bill Belichick & lose a game by 3 points as opposed to say 20. Neither NE or Steeler Nation looks at the Colts as a SB contender right now.  Chuck & Ryan have reached the end of their abilities to take us to the next level. 

 

I was opposed to Mike Shanahan before, but after listening to 3 time SB Champion TE Shannon Sharpe rave about how well Mike used RB Terrell Davis to protect HOF QB Elway on a daily basis on FS1's 'Undisputed' I'm more open to how Mike would protect Luck giving him a guaranteed ground game to keep him healthy & open up flee flicker stuff. 

[southwest1]

I'm preparing myself for 1 more yr under the stewardship of Pags & Grigs as in reading the owner tea leaves. However, it better not be more than 1 more yr. maximum. Watch, by some miracle in 2017, we go 12-4 get a first round bye...Get to the divisional round...1 & done...& Jimmy in his infinite wisdom [sarcasm] is fine with both men serving out their full contracts. 

 

Oh happy joy! You know that's dark humor/misery right? 

[oldunclemark]

Starting 3 rookies in the O-line, and with a QB on the injruy report all season....I'm okay with 8-8.

I dont think any team since the the AFL-NFL merger has started 3 rookes in the O-line and made the NFL playoffs.

 

This year was disappointing but the future is bright

[AZColt11]

13 minutes ago, southwest1 said:

I'm preparing myself for 1 more yr under the stewardship of Pags & Grigs as in reading the owner tea leaves. However, it better not be more than 1 more yr. maximum. Watch, by some miracle in 2017, we go 12-4 get a first round bye...Get to the divisional round...1 & done...& Jimmy in his infinite wisdom [sarcasm] is fine with both men serving out their full contracts. 

 

Oh happy joy! You know that's dark humor/misery right? 

Oh I could see it!  Jimmy is a passionate, caring, LOYAL owner for all of his "warts" and I could see him seeing only the positive when it comes to this regime, unfortunately.

[southwest1]

28 minutes ago, AZColt11 said:

Oh I could see it!  Jimmy is a passionate, caring, LOYAL owner for all of his "warts" and I could see him seeing only the positive when it comes to this regime, unfortunately.

That is the scary thing about a distorted reality AZC: Follow through from the man at the top. I know Jimmy means well as the horseshoe head honcho & all. 

 

But as my father is fond of saying: "The road to hades is paved with good intentions." Translation: Look at the whole Pagano/Grigson tenure. Don't get distracted with hap hazard victories that aren't necessarily indicative of longterm Championship success. 

 

The OL is improving gradually, but like others have astutely joked--This really shouldn't be an 8 yr reclamation project should it? We're not building the Panama Canal here. Just trying to win 2 rings in say 15 yrs under the Luck regime. I don't care about how a nice a coach is. I want shiny hardware darn it. 

[Superman]

1 hour ago, southwest1 said:

I'm preparing myself for 1 more yr under the stewardship of Pags & Grigs as in reading the owner tea leaves. However, it better not be more than 1 more yr. maximum. Watch, by some miracle in 2017, we go 12-4 get a first round bye...Get to the divisional round...1 & done...& Jimmy in his infinite wisdom [sarcasm] is fine with both men serving out their full contracts. 

 

Oh happy joy! You know that's dark humor/misery right? 

 

How awful it would be to win 12 games next year... How dare anyone settle for such mediocrity!

 

???

[southwest1]

1 hour ago, oldunclemark said:

This year was disappointing but the future is bright

Phil Sims said pretty much the same thing in air in the broadcast booth too OUM. I agree that Parry, Kelly, & Walden have made contributions during the regular season & that hiring Joe Philbin, much to my initial dismay, was a nice new hire. 

 

I just see Adam V., Pat McAfee, & Luck masking a lot of coaching mishaps that keep Chuck around longer than he should be. 

[southwest1]

6 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

How awful it would be to win 12 games next year... How dare anyone settle for such mediocrity!

 

???

You understand the difference between 1 solid yr & a decade of dominance competing for SBs right Superman? 

 

Has Chuck or Ryan shown you any signs that INDY can get past Pittsburgh or NE? [Crickets chirping]. 

 

Is Chip Kelly still coaching in Philly with very similar win totals to Pagano in his early yrs too? Nope. 

[Superman]

3 minutes ago, southwest1 said:

You understand the difference between 1 solid yr & a decade of dominance competing for SBs right Superman? 

 

Has Chuck or Ryan shown you any signs that INDY can get past Pittsburgh or NE? [Crickets chirping]. 

 

Is Chip Kelly still coaching in Philly with very similar win totals to Pagano in his early yrs too? Nope. 

 

I've already said my piece on both Grigson and Pagano. But if they stay, and the Colts have a good year in 2017, that's a good thing. The hope should be that they continue having good years, get better, and maybe win a SB.

 

If you've completely given up on them, that's fine, but it's strange to act like a good season under them is a bad thing. I like to root for the people running my team, regardless of what I think of them. Some seem to root against them because they don't like them anymore. 

[AZColt11]

26 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I've already said my piece on both Grigson and Pagano. But if they stay, and the Colts have a good year in 2017, that's a good thing. The hope should be that they continue having good years, get better, and maybe win a SB.

 

If you've completely given up on them, that's fine, but it's strange to act like a good season under them is a bad thing. I like to root for the people running my team, regardless of what I think of them. Some seem to root against them because they don't like them anymore. 

I don't think if Irsay keeps Chuck and Ryan that ANYBODY would have a problem with them going 12-4.  That would be insane.  Where the problem comes in is if they get walloped by NE (again) or Pitt in the playoffs.  THAT is where the rubber meets the road, at least for me.  I know they can wins some games.  I don't have any confidence as of yet they can get them to the "Promised Land".

[southwest1]

21 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I've already said my piece on both Grigson and Pagano. But if they stay, and the Colts have a good year in 2017, that's a good thing. The hope should be that they continue having good years, get better, and maybe win a SB.

 

If you've completely given up on them, that's fine, but it's strange to act like a good season under them is a bad thing. I like to root for the people running my team, regardless of what I think of them. Some seem to root against them because they don't like them anymore. 

The problem with a record breaking season is that such an event in our case might be used a false catalyst to keep everything status quo with no major changes on the horizon as an organization.

 

I understand your point about almost taking glee in a coaching staffs demise, which has a devious & unsavory connotation to it on it's surface Superman. If Pagano went 12-4, just by virtue of being here, Chuck & Ryan deserve credit for that. However, the trick is to spot an anomaly from a longterm trend or rather read the circumstance correctly as an owner. 

 

Am I biased toward letting both men go? Yes, but I won't openly take satisfaction in another man's dismissal should it come to that. I'm ready to cut ties & go in a new direction right now, but I don't own the team Jimmy does. It's his call.

 

Is this a Marty Schottenheimer situation similar to getting fired in San Diego? No, but if Pagano won 12 games, I'd still drop the hammer because to me, it's all about competing against NE & Pittsburgh & Chuck has no answers against these 2 annual playoff contenders. 

[NewColtsFan]

9 hours ago, azcolt said:

Colts are mediocre? We wish. Remember that .500 records in the pathetic AFC South translates to 7-9 or worse in any other division. Mediocrity would be an improvement.

 

The AFC South is much better than you think it is.

 

It's much better than most of the hater here think it is.

 

It's not great,  but it's better than it's been.     The competition has gotten better and we've stalled out.

 

[AZColt11]

11 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

The AFC South is much better than you think it is.

 

It's much better than most of the hater here think it is.

 

It's not great,  but it's better than it's been.     The competition has gotten better and we've stalled out.

 

Well it's certainly not the worst, which is the NFC West IMHO.

[John Waylon]

But we grind. We keep chopping wood. We have guys with grit. We've got guys who are rolling balls of butcher knives.

*

[southwest1]

48 minutes ago, AZColt11 said:

I don't think if Irsay keeps Chuck and Ryan that ANYBODY would have a problem with them going 12-4.  That would be insane.  Where the problem comes in is if they get walloped by NE (again) or Pitt in the playoffs.  THAT is where the rubber meets the road, at least for me.  I know they can wins some games.  I don't have any confidence as of yet they can get them to the "Promised Land".

I understand what both you & Superman are saying. Supe is basically saying Jimmy has made an extended commitment to both Chuck & Ryan & given the early success both men have had starting in 2012; they are entitled to a pass on 1 lousy year. A fair point. 

 

While AZC is basically saying if the objective is to win SBs & both BB & Mike Tomlin stand in the way of NFL immortality, why retain men who can't defeat INDY's 2 arch AFC nemesis teams? A ludicrous move. A very compelling argument I must say. 

 

I just know this partnership has run it's course & continuing on this HC/GM path is an exercise in futility. The only way the Colts beat Big Ben is if he mysteriously gets food poisoning the night before we face him on the field & as far as NE is concerned, they have a running game & we are still fine-tuning ours. Enough said. 

[Superman]

1 hour ago, AZColt11 said:

I don't think if Irsay keeps Chuck and Ryan that ANYBODY would have a problem with them going 12-4.  That would be insane.  Where the problem comes in is if they get walloped by NE (again) or Pitt in the playoffs.  THAT is where the rubber meets the road, at least for me.  I know they can wins some games.  I don't have any confidence as of yet they can get them to the "Promised Land".

 

To your first line, I'm 99.9% certain that there are posters on this very website who would complain all the way to Week 17 about how a good regular season is saving their jobs. That's their prerogative, I just happen to experience fandom differently.

 

As for getting walloped by anyone in the playoffs, it happens. Some seem incredibly afraid of it happening, as if it undermines any other relative accomplishments. Again, I see it differently.

 

I am not confident in this leadership group. But I would hope that, along the way to a 12-4 season and a first round bye, they would have made some decisions and guided the team in such a way that some confidence would have been gained. We play the AFC North and the NFC West next season. I'm pretty sure we go to Baltimore and Seattle. I assume we'll be playing a 2nd place schedule, which means Miami and KC, two pretty good teams this season. It won't be a walk in the park kind of season. All hypotheticals, but if the Colts have a good season, they'll have earned it.

 

Again, hypothetical, but I would think that means Grigson had a good offseason, and Pagano and his staff did a better job of gameplanning throughout the season. Those are good things, if you want to see the Colts contend in the AFC. And maybe they'd be indications that this leadership group has improved, and will continue to do so, which is again a good thing.

 

A 12-4 season and a first round bye being couched as a bad thing for the Colts is antithetical, to me.

[AZColt11]

18 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

To your first line, I'm 99.9% certain that there are posters on this very website who would complain all the way to Week 17 about how a good regular season is saving their jobs. That's their prerogative, I just happen to experience fandom differently.

 

As for getting walloped by anyone in the playoffs, it happens. Some seem incredibly afraid of it happening, as if it undermines any other relative accomplishments. Again, I see it differently.

 

I am not confident in this leadership group. But I would hope that, along the way to a 12-4 season and a first round bye, they would have made some decisions and guided the team in such a way that some confidence would have been gained. We play the AFC North and the NFC West next season. I'm pretty sure we go to Baltimore and Seattle. I assume we'll be playing a 2nd place schedule, which means Miami and KC, two pretty good teams this season. It won't be a walk in the park kind of season. All hypotheticals, but if the Colts have a good season, they'll have earned it.

 

Again, hypothetical, but I would think that means Grigson had a good offseason, and Pagano and his staff did a better job of gameplanning throughout the season. Those are good things, if you want to see the Colts contend in the AFC. And maybe they'd be indications that this leadership group has improved, and will continue to do so, which is again a good thing.

 

A 12-4 season and a first round bye being couched as a bad thing for the Colts is antithetical, to me.

Fair enough and all good points.  I think the term "success" is indeed defined differently for different people.  I am craving Superbowl appearances and I just don't see this current regime as good enough to make it there, at least not in the foreseeable future.  Perhaps when Brady hangs them up and Big Ben is long in the tooth, but not next year.  Perhaps you do, and I certainly can't prove you incorrect.  We will just have to see what happens, hope for the best, and deal with whatever comes.  But I think we ALL want the same thing, which is to see the Colts be successful.

[Superman]

1 hour ago, southwest1 said:

The problem with a record breaking season is that such an event in our case might be used a false catalyst to keep everything status quo with no major changes on the horizon as an organization.

 

I understand your point about almost taking glee in a coaching staffs demise, which has a devious & unsavory connotation to it on it's surface Superman. If Pagano went 12-4, just by virtue of being here, Chuck & Ryan deserve credit for that. However, the trick is to spot an anomaly from a longterm trend or rather read the circumstance correctly as an owner. 

 

Am I biased toward letting both men go? Yes, but I won't openly take satisfaction in another man's dismissal should it come to that. I'm ready to cut ties & go in a new direction right now, but I don't own the team Jimmy does. It's his call.

 

Is this a Marty Schottenheimer situation similar to getting fired in San Diego? No, but if Pagano won 12 games, I'd still drop the hammer because to me, it's all about competing against NE & Pittsburgh & Chuck has no answers against these 2 annual playoff contenders. 

 

False catalyst? Why not just an indication that the guys in charge are doing a better job?

 

If -- IF -- Irsay keeps Pagano and/or Grigson after this disappointing season, then I can pretty much guarantee that keeping them for another season after 12-4 wouldn't require justification. 

 

Also, big picture, it could be argued that this season is the anomaly. A 12-4 season would be more in keeping with what the Grigson/Pagano duo has presided over so far. Last season was unusual due to Luck's injury (although it wasn't going well even before he got hurt), and they changed coordinators midseason. This year is the only season in which the Colts, with a mostly healthy starting QB, have finished with fewer than 11 wins since Grigson and Pagano were hired. 

 

I'm with you, though -- this is enough for me. I don't believe in them, especially Pagano (primarily due to his preferred offensive approach, but I also take issues with his ability to strategize), so like you, if it were up to me, I'd be moving on. I would have moved on after last year. This year has been worse for Pagano, IMO. Yet, Irsay has all but committed to both of them. I highly doubt either of them goes anywhere this season, and I've felt that way all year. 

 

I'm not exactly happy about that, but while they're here, I will hope that they do a great job. If they have a good year next year and stay longer, I'm okay with that, because a good year is a good thing. Beating the Pats or Steelers is yet another step.

[NewColtsFan]

35 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

To your first line, I'm 99.9% certain that there are posters on this very website who would complain all the way to Week 17 about how a good regular season is saving their jobs. That's their prerogative, I just happen to experience fandom differently.

 

As for getting walloped by anyone in the playoffs, it happens. Some seem incredibly afraid of it happening, as if it undermines any other relative accomplishments. Again, I see it differently.

 

I am not confident in this leadership group. But I would hope that, along the way to a 12-4 season and a first round bye, they would have made some decisions and guided the team in such a way that some confidence would have been gained. We play the AFC North and the NFC West next season. I'm pretty sure we go to Baltimore and Seattle. I assume we'll be playing a 2nd place schedule, which means Miami and KC, two pretty good teams this season. It won't be a walk in the park kind of season. All hypotheticals, but if the Colts have a good season, they'll have earned it.

 

Again, hypothetical, but I would think that means Grigson had a good offseason, and Pagano and his staff did a better job of gameplanning throughout the season. Those are good things, if you want to see the Colts contend in the AFC. And maybe they'd be indications that this leadership group has improved, and will continue to do so, which is again a good thing.

 

A 12-4 season and a first round bye being couched as a bad thing for the Colts is antithetical, to me.

 

Antithetical?!?

 

I was told there would be no big SAT type words on this quiz......

 

This is not fair.....   I'd like to file an official protest,  but to whom?      ;-)

 

[Superman]

8 minutes ago, AZColt11 said:

Fair enough and all good points.  I think the term "success" is indeed defined differently for different people.  I am craving Superbowl appearances and I just don't see this current regime as good enough to make it there, at least not in the foreseeable future.  Perhaps when Brady hangs them up and Big Ben is long in the tooth, but not next year.  Perhaps you do, and I certainly can't prove you incorrect.  We will just have to see what happens, hope for the best, and deal with whatever comes.  But I think we ALL want the same thing, which is to see the Colts be successful.

 

Success is relative. Believe it or not, the Browns experienced a success Saturday. A small success, but still a success. The ultimate success is what we all hope for. And then, once you get there, you hope you can do it again.

 

I want to see the Colts win SBs also, I think we all do. But I'm not so obsessed with what will or won't happen that I'm going to miss getting there. All those steps along the way are important also, and make the outcome more meaningful. It would be awesome if there were never any missteps, but it usually doesn't work like that.

 

To go from this disappointing season to 12-4, even if you're one and done, is a measure of success. There would still be a lot of work to do, and I'm not sure the guys we have can get it done. But I'm not going to be dismissive of the accomplishments along the way.

[Gyworks]

4 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Success is relative. Believe it or not, the Browns experienced a success Saturday. A small success, but still a success. The ultimate success is what we all hope for. And then, once you get there, you hope you can do it again.

 

I want to see the Colts win SBs also, I think we all do. But I'm not so obsessed with what will or won't happen that I'm going to miss getting there. All those steps along the way are important also, and make the outcome more meaningful. It would be awesome if there were never any missteps, but it usually doesn't work like that.

 

To go from this disappointing season to 12-4, even if you're one and done, is a measure of success. There would still be a lot of work to do, and I'm not sure the guys we have can get it done. But I'm not going to be dismissive of the accomplishments along the way.

I truly believe that some winning records can be dangerous for the long term success of a franchise as it tends to conserve the status quo by making everyone believe that we are on the right track and that we are close. But the painful truth is that there's a huge difference between being good and being great. This regime proved several times that they are able to send a good team on to the field that can compete with anyone but in the past years they didn't show me any proof that they could build or coach a team to greatness. If our owner keeps this regime for any more seasons then we are once again settled with mediocrity.

[CoachLite]

12 hours ago, southwest1 said:

I'm preparing myself for 1 more yr under the stewardship of Pags & Grigs as in reading the owner tea leaves. However, it better not be more than 1 more yr. maximum. Watch, by some miracle in 2017, we go 12-4 get a first round bye...Get to the divisional round...1 & done...& Jimmy in his infinite wisdom [sarcasm] is fine with both men serving out their full contracts. 

 

Oh happy joy! You know that's dark humor/misery right? 

This could happen, but at the same time a wedge would be driven, creating a split between the Colts organization and the fans that could never be completely overcome. This may have already happened. Oh, happy joy, indeed.

[CanuckColtsFan]

15 hours ago, Superman said:

 

How awful it would be to win 12 games next year... How dare anyone settle for such mediocrity!

 

???

I know right there's some pretty emo stuff in this thread. This fan base is obsessed with the Super Bowl. Apparently if you're not in the big game the season was a waste and the organization is terrible and needs to be blown up.

[tfunky14]

Preparation, Preparation, Preparation, Preparation

We once had a guy who was the best at Preparation..

 

Till Luck does this the Colts will be stuck at 8-8..

[Restored]

15 hours ago, Superman said:

 

I've already said my piece on both Grigson and Pagano. But if they stay, and the Colts have a good year in 2017, that's a good thing. The hope should be that they continue having good years, get better, and maybe win a SB.

 

If you've completely given up on them, that's fine, but it's strange to act like a good season under them is a bad thing. I like to root for the people running my team, regardless of what I think of them. Some seem to root against them because they don't like them anymore. 

 

Superman, I've always thought of you as one of the more intelligent posters on this forum and really admire some of your posts but your contentment for mediocrity has been on display since last season when people were calling for Grigson and Pagano to be let go while you danced around the idea.

 

Yes, Colts fans have been "spoiled" with the success of the Polian/Dungy era. Given this prior history of success along with an opportunity to begin anew with another franchise QB, many would reasonably expect this era to be as successful if not more than the previous one.

 

We could sit here and dissect each and every draft and every coaching blunder to justify how Pagano and Grigson have failed but we'd be restating the obvious. They both need to go unless we want this franchise to wallow in mediocrity with a franchise QB like the Chargers did for the past decade.

[Superman]

2 hours ago, Restored said:

your contentment for mediocrity

 

Allow me to call nonsense on this once and for all.

 

I'm not running the Colts. If I were, Grigson and Pagano would have been gone after last season. Don't forget, I defended Irsay's one year offer to Pagano before the 2015 season, based on the fact that he had not proven that he was the right guy to lead the team into true contention. This is before the Indy media at large turned against Pagano, when everyone was outraged on his behalf that Irsay would dare to offer him only a "modest increase" on a one year extension. 

 

I rehash all of that to point out that I am not content with mediocrity. I want the right guy for the team, and I've been saying that the jury is out on Pagano since 2014, even though I was willing to give him time to prove himself. That doesn't mean that I'm okay with the Colts being mediocre.

 

I strongly object to that conclusion. It's a not-so-sneaky way of you undermining my fandom.

 

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Given this prior history of success along with an opportunity to begin anew with another franchise QB, many would reasonably expect this era to be as successful if not more than the previous one.

 

But this is where perspective is sorely lacking. To this point, this era has been MORE successful than the last one. It was well ahead of schedule, as a matter of fact, until last season. If Pagano is Luck's Jim Mora, this era compares very favorably to the Manning era.

 

Where I want the Colts to do better is to find someone better than Dungy, who I believe was overly conservative, overly vanilla, and overly resistant to change. I'm not exactly saying that Dungy cost the Colts a chance at more SBs, but sticking with his favored DC and STs coach didn't help. Dungy was great, big picture, but I have issues with plenty of his decisions over the years. So if I'm critical of HOFer Tony Dungy, how "content with mediocrity" can I really be?

 

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They both need to go unless we want this franchise to wallow in mediocrity with a franchise QB like the Chargers did for the past decade.

 

So, unless I pout and throw tantrums in the meantime, I'm content with the status quo? Again, I object. I will continue to root for and support this team, including the people running it, despite the fact that I don't exactly believe in them. I would rather be proven wrong and see them succeed. That doesn't mean I'm content with them being mediocre, it means I hope they get better, and if they don't, I expect them to be replaced. What I won't do is act out of a sense of entitlement.

 

Last thing, interesting you'd bring up the Chargers. Rivers has had three head coaches, been through 5 coordinator changes since he's been the starter, and they've had an extensive front office change. Meanwhile, he's played in one championship game in 11 seasons as the starter. Their current regime has been to the playoffs once in 4 seasons, despite always picking in front of the Colts in the draft and having an established veteran QB. Rivers' Chargers are a perfect example of how wholesale change doesn't guarantee success.

 

So it's not that Grigson and Pagano need to go, it's more that whoever runs the team needs to install a championship caliber operation. 

[Shive]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

Allow me to call nonsense on this once and for all.

 

I'm not running the Colts. If I were, Grigson and Pagano would have been gone after last season. Don't forget, I defended Irsay's one year offer to Pagano before the 2015 season, based on the fact that he had not proven that he was the right guy to lead the team into true contention. This is before the Indy media at large turned against Pagano, when everyone was outraged on his behalf that Irsay would dare to offer him only a "modest increase" on a one year extension. 

 

I rehash all of that to point out that I am not content with mediocrity. I want the right guy for the team, and I've been saying that the jury is out on Pagano since 2014, even though I was willing to give him time to prove himself. That doesn't mean that I'm okay with the Colts being mediocre.

 

I strongly object to that conclusion. It's a not-so-sneaky way of you undermining my fandom.

 

 

But this is where perspective is sorely lacking. To this point, this era has been MORE successful than the last one. It was well ahead of schedule, as a matter of fact, until last season. If Pagano is Luck's Jim Mora, this era compares very favorably to the Manning era.

 

Where I want the Colts to do better is to find someone better than Dungy, who I believe was overly conservative, overly vanilla, and overly resistant to change. I'm not exactly saying that Dungy cost the Colts a chance at more SBs, but sticking with his favored DC and STs coach didn't help. Dungy was great, big picture, but I have issues with plenty of his decisions over the years. So if I'm critical of HOFer Tony Dungy, how "content with mediocrity" can I really be?

 

 

So, unless I pout and throw tantrums in the meantime, I'm content with the status quo? Again, I object. I will continue to root for and support this team, including the people running it, despite the fact that I don't exactly believe in them. I would rather be proven wrong and see them succeed. That doesn't mean I'm content with them being mediocre, it means I hope they get better, and if they don't, I expect them to be replaced. What I won't do is act out of a sense of entitlement.

 

Last thing, interesting you'd bring up the Chargers. Rivers has had three head coaches, been through 5 coordinator changes since he's been the starter, and they've had an extensive front office change. Meanwhile, he's played in one championship game in 11 seasons as the starter. Their current regime has been to the playoffs once in 4 seasons, despite always picking in front of the Colts in the draft and having an established veteran QB. Rivers' Chargers are a perfect example of how wholesale change doesn't guarantee success.

 

So it's not that Grigson and Pagano need to go, it's more that whoever runs the team needs to install a championship caliber operation. 

Can this post be stickied or.....

[Restored]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

Allow me to call nonsense on this once and for all.

 

I'm not running the Colts. If I were, Grigson and Pagano would have been gone after last season. Don't forget, I defended Irsay's one year offer to Pagano before the 2015 season, based on the fact that he had not proven that he was the right guy to lead the team into true contention. This is before the Indy media at large turned against Pagano, when everyone was outraged on his behalf that Irsay would dare to offer him only a "modest increase" on a one year extension. 

 

I rehash all of that to point out that I am not content with mediocrity. I want the right guy for the team, and I've been saying that the jury is out on Pagano since 2014, even though I was willing to give him time to prove himself. That doesn't mean that I'm okay with the Colts being mediocre.

 

I'm glad you've made that clear. I and plenty of others have watched you dance around the idea of firing Pagano/Grigson well into last season as well. Don't take it personally but its how your posts came across.

 

 

 

Quote

 

I strongly object to that conclusion. It's a not-so-sneaky way of you undermining my fandom.

 

 

But this is where perspective is sorely lacking. To this point, this era has been MORE successful than the last one. It was well ahead of schedule, as a matter of fact, until last season. If Pagano is Luck's Jim Mora, this era compares very favorably to the Manning era.

 

Where I want the Colts to do better is to find someone better than Dungy, who I believe was overly conservative, overly vanilla, and overly resistant to change. I'm not exactly saying that Dungy cost the Colts a chance at more SBs, but sticking with his favored DC and STs coach didn't help. Dungy was great, big picture, but I have issues with plenty of his decisions over the years. So if I'm critical of HOFer Tony Dungy, how "content with mediocrity" can I really be?

 

I wouldn't consider this era to be "ahead of schedule" in comparison to the Mora/Manning era. This era benefitted massively by playing in one of the league's weakest divisions and having a once in a generation talent at QB that was arguably the most NFL-ready QB ever. Add in the fact that there were still some good level players held over from the previous regime and you get a first three years that appear good on paper. However, this doesn't mask the massive draft misses during those years nor the consistent coaching ineptitude against high level opponents. Of course of all this led to an inflated record.

 

And as far as Dungy goes, criticism doesn't always equate to dissatisfaction. I too had many of the same issues with Tony and Polian but I understood their line of reasoning and at the end of the day, it worked for a LONG time and produced this franchise's only Super Bowl win since arriving in Indianapolis. Pagano and Grigson haven't earned that benefit of the doubt nor did they have prior history to warrant so.

 

 

Quote

 

 

So, unless I pout and throw tantrums in the meantime, I'm content with the status quo? Again, I object. I will continue to root for and support this team, including the people running it, despite the fact that I don't exactly believe in them. I would rather be proven wrong and see them succeed. That doesn't mean I'm content with them being mediocre, it means I hope they get better, and if they don't, I expect them to be replaced. What I won't do is act out of a sense of entitlement.

 

Last thing, interesting you'd bring up the Chargers. Rivers has had three head coaches, been through 5 coordinator changes since he's been the starter, and they've had an extensive front office change. Meanwhile, he's played in one championship game in 11 seasons as the starter. Their current regime has been to the playoffs once in 4 seasons, despite always picking in front of the Colts in the draft and having an established veteran QB. Rivers' Chargers are a perfect example of how wholesale change doesn't guarantee success.

 

So it's not that Grigson and Pagano need to go, it's more that whoever runs the team needs to install a championship caliber operation. 

 

We all would rather be proven wrong than sit and watch this team tumble to the depths of which they have but that isn't reality. It's not reasonable for a fan base to expect a consistent, winning organization when their team is playing in one of the league's worst divisions with the best quarterback out of the bunch.

 

The Chargers have more or less been a dysfunctional organization from the top down for much of their history but they have been more consistent recently in having two head coaches for much of River's career outside of the one season with Marty. They stuck with Norv Turner for 5 seasons while parading around in mediocrity and epic collapses before bringing in Mike McCoy who unfortunately ended up furthering the spiral. Change is sometimes more necessary to take another step as long as it is the correct one. San Diego didn't make the right ones but its tough to argue that they WEREN'T necessary at the time. Pagano and Grigson haven't been a complete disaster but its becoming dangerously obvious that they won't be able to get this team to a championship level.

[Superman]

37 minutes ago, Restored said:

I'm glad you've made that clear. I and plenty of others have watched you dance around the idea of firing Pagano/Grigson well into last season as well. Don't take it personally but its how your posts came across.

 

I haven't danced around anything. I disagreed with people who wanted to blow Grigson and Pagano out halfway through Year 3, and I said so. At the end of Year 4, I felt they weren't the right guys, and I said so. 

 

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I wouldn't consider this era to be "ahead of schedule" in comparison to the Mora/Manning era. 

 

Well it is. Or, it was. The Manning era Colts didn't win a single playoff game until Year 6. 

 

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Of course of all this led to an inflated record.

 

There's no such thing as an inflated record. You can only play the games you're scheduled to play, and when you win with the team you constructed, you deserve credit for that. Don't forget that this regime chose to re-sign Wayne and Mathis, those holdover players that helped the team win games. And don't forget that the 2012-14 Colts beat several good teams. 

 

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Pagano and Grigson haven't earned that benefit of the doubt nor did they have prior history to warrant so.

 

No one said they did. I simply said that it was possible that a guy who had coached ~40 games might not be a finished product, and that the GM who got off course in his second year might be able to learn from his mistakes. 

 

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watch this team tumble to the depths of which they have

 

Again, perspective is sorely lacking.

 

Quote

It's not reasonable for a fan base to expect a consistent, winning organization when their team is playing in one of the league's worst divisions with the best quarterback out of the bunch.

 

I'm assuming you meant it's not unreasonable, in which case, I agree. I should just be able to say that I agree without being accused of being "content with mediocrity."

 

Quote

They stuck with Norv Turner for 5 seasons while parading around in mediocrity and epic collapses before bringing in Mike McCoy who unfortunately ended up furthering the spiral. 

 

That's easy to say with the benefit of hindsight. In real time, Turner's first year looked like a vindication for AJ Smith firing his 14-2 head coach, because they finally won a couple of playoff games and went to the AFCCG. They won another playoff game in Year 2, and were 13-3 in Year 3. Their "parading around in mediocrity" didn't start until 2010, and they really didn't have any "epic collapses," as they generally finished seasons strong, except for playoff losses. They've been worse under Mike McCoy.

 

This is not a defense of Norv Turner; it was obviously time for him to go, just like it's time for Pagano to go, IMO. But all the 'anyone would be better' kind of stuff -- the stuff I generally respond to -- shows an alarming lack of awareness for how the league really works. 

 

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Pagano and Grigson haven't been a complete disaster but its becoming dangerously obvious that they won't be able to get this team to a championship level.

 

I agree. But I continue to take exception to the idea that a) the Colts are some deeply flawed and poorly run organization that fans ought to be depressed about, and b) that if I am not out every week with my torch and pitchfork that it means I'm "content" with where they are. It's offensive, and I will continue to strenuously object to that characterization, because it's dead wrong. If that's how you read it, you read it wrong. 

[Superman]

2 hours ago, Restored said:

its becoming dangerously obvious that they won't be able to get this team to a championship level.

 

One more thing, three years ago, it was "dangerously obvious" that Ron Rivera wasn't good enough. Then, out of nowhere, they go 12-4, then win a playoff game, then go to the SB. Patience =/= contentment. 

[Defjamz26]

On 12/27/2016 at 4:56 AM, Gyworks said:

I truly believe that some winning records can be dangerous for the long term success of a franchise as it tends to conserve the status quo by making everyone believe that we are on the right track and that we are close. But the painful truth is that there's a huge difference between being good and being great. This regime proved several times that they are able to send a good team on to the field that can compete with anyone but in the past years they didn't show me any proof that they could build or coach a team to greatness. If our owner keeps this regime for any more seasons then we are once again settled with mediocrity.

Agree. It's about long term success. Okay you went 11-5 3 years in a row and went to an AFC championship but can you do it again?

 

Plus consider the factors during this winning seasons. All our division teams had top 5 draft picks (some multiple times) meaning they were the worst teams in the NFL. What happens when those teams actually improve? We've already seen the answer to that.

 

And with our regime I don't understand it. People applaud going 11-5 3 straight years in a weak division as if it's the most amazing feat ever. Better coaches and GMs with better accolades have gotten fired for less. What makes our guys so special?

 

To me the Colts are starting to resemble the Mike Smith coached Falcons. A few years ago they played in a weak division and started winning the division yearly and were yearly Super Bowl favorites. Granted they had less playoff wins than the current Colts regime, but it was the same story. Then the Panthers got better, Saints improved, and they started declining. That's who the Colts are becoming.

[coltsva]

14 hours ago, Superman said:

 

One more thing, three years ago, it was "dangerously obvious" that Ron Rivera wasn't good enough. Then, out of nowhere, they go 12-4, then win a playoff game, then go to the SB. Patience =/= contentment. 

Now one year later they have a losing record and he's an average coach again. Which just proves what we already knew...there's Belichek, and then there's everyone else.

[Restored]

14 hours ago, Superman said:

 

I haven't danced around anything. I disagreed with people who wanted to blow Grigson and Pagano out halfway through Year 3, and I said so. At the end of Year 4, I felt they weren't the right guys, and I said so. 

Again, some of your posts have made it seem like you were dancing around it but you've made it clear at this point so it's moot now.

 

14 hours ago, Superman said:

 

 

Well it is. Or, it was. The Manning era Colts didn't win a single playoff game until Year 6. 

If we're playing the lack of perspective card, I suppose I can do that here as well. While the Manning era teams didn't win a playoff game until year six, the team itself was making quantifiable progress in both the draft and eventually, in the coaching ranks as well. High Impact players like Reggie Wayne, Dwight Freeney, Dallas Clark and Edgerinn James were drafted over that time frame. Heck, even Rob Morris went on to be a serviceable for the team. What players like that have been drafted by Grigson and Pagano? Meanwhile, Grigson's misses in both free agency and the draft have made this digress after achieving some early success. 

14 hours ago, Superman said:

 

 

There's no such thing as an inflated record. You can only play the games you're scheduled to play, and when you win with the team you constructed, you deserve credit for that. Don't forget that this regime chose to re-sign Wayne and Mathis, those holdover players that helped the team win games. And don't forget that the 2012-14 Colts beat several good teams. 

Yes there is such a thing. There's a reason why this team has floated around .500 or so outside of the division since the Pagano/Grigson era began. And for Pagano and Grigson's sake, they should be glad they did re-sign Wayne and Mathis because they ended up being two of the few playmakers during those first couple of seasons. And yes, the Colts did beat several good teams but also lost BADLY to some good teams and lost to some bad/mediocre ones as well. Again, beating up on weak division teams has masked this mediocrity that is now unavoidable since even the divisional foes are improving.

14 hours ago, Superman said:

 

 

No one said they did. I simply said that it was possible that a guy who had coached ~40 games might not be a finished product, and that the GM who got off course in his second year might be able to learn from his mistakes. 

That's where the disagreement comes in. The GM didn't just "get off course" in year two. He's whiffed fairly badly free agency and in the draft by in large outside of 2012. Last year's draft was average but no definitive playmaker appears to be in the bunch like in 2012. 

14 hours ago, Superman said:

 

 

Again, perspective is sorely lacking.

How is perspective lacking? Even if we were solely going off of record, the team has gone backwards the past two seasons.

14 hours ago, Superman said:

 

 

I'm assuming you meant it's not unreasonable, in which case, I agree. I should just be able to say that I agree without being accused of being "content with mediocrity."

My point was that if you agreed with that premise, you wouldn't be content with the mediocrity which it appears you are not so we are on the same page here.

14 hours ago, Superman said:

 

 

That's easy to say with the benefit of hindsight. In real time, Turner's first year looked like a vindication for AJ Smith firing his 14-2 head coach, because they finally won a couple of playoff games and went to the AFCCG. They won another playoff game in Year 2, and were 13-3 in Year 3. Their "parading around in mediocrity" didn't start until 2010, and they really didn't have any "epic collapses," as they generally finished seasons strong, except for playoff losses. They've been worse under Mike McCoy.

They won 8 games in 2008. Yes they won a playoff game that year but they were a largely mediocre team that season as well. It's hard to understand how you your defense is that the mediocrity didn't start until 2010 even though that time frame is much larger than the few successful seasons they had prior. And ye,s there were epic collapses. 2011 they started 4-1 before losing 6 straight. 2012 they started 3-1 before losing 7 of the next 8. And in 2014 were 5-1 before finishing 9-7.

14 hours ago, Superman said:

 

This is not a defense of Norv Turner; it was obviously time for him to go, just like it's time for Pagano to go, IMO. But all the 'anyone would be better' kind of stuff -- the stuff I generally respond to -- shows an alarming lack of awareness for how the league really works. 

I agree. Not just anyone would be better but we've seen all we need to see from Pagano.

14 hours ago, Superman said:

 

 

I agree. But I continue to take exception to the idea that a) the Colts are some deeply flawed and poorly run organization that fans ought to be depressed about, and b) that if I am not out every week with my torch and pitchfork that it means I'm "content" with where they are. It's offensive, and I will continue to strenuously object to that characterization, because it's dead wrong. If that's how you read it, you read it wrong. 

 

You are generalizing in extremes here. No one is expecting you to come out and say "FIRE GRIGSON AND PAGANO THEY BOTH SUCK!!!111!!!" but your posts in the past have made it seem that you weren't exactly discontent either.