Prospective head coaching candidates [Merge]

[Mr. Too Proud]

Kyle Shanahan HC 
He has been a offensive coordinator since 2008. The Falcons is on pace to be his 6 offense out of 9 that would rank in the top 10. Many may point that he has never been a head coach but he has already already dealt with his share of controversy. Public disputes with Cleveland front office, Donovan McNabb, RG3 and Roddy White. I think this will be a great culture shock from Chuck. He has players that rave about his system which is one reason why Alex Mack came to Atlanta after working with him in Cleveland. Here is a quick hit on his resumé.

Houston 
Matt Schaub was a top tier QB with him. He wasn’t very mobile and Kyle made adjustment to make him good to great in Houston. Aaron Foster and Steve Slauton was pretty much unknown before running for at least 1000 yards underneath Kyle and his offense.
Redskins 
RG3 won rookie of the year. He was a mobile QB that Kyle tailored his offensive strategy to. The complete opposite of Schaub yet similar success. He help Alfred Morris break out in the run game also.
Browns
Hoyer had his best season under Kyle Shanahan and he utilize his TEs more in with this team with Josh Gordon absence. His run game with Terrance West was strong enough to open up the play action for Hoyer. 
Atlanta 
He has a WR and RB in the top of their respective positions. Similar to us the Falcons don’t have a great o-line yet he has found success in a running game. Many people point at the team falling off after starting 5-0 but if you look closely you see they are near the top of the league in turning the ball over in the red zone. Not all turn overs are Kyle fault and if they just walk away with a touchdown or 3 their record would look different.

I feel this team has more weapons than he ever had access to. Similar to his father i think he allows almost any RB to get near 1000 yards. He fits his system to the strength of the players and found success with different types of QBs (mobile, strong arm, west coast, read option, pocket QB and time managers).

Lastly at the Browns and Falcons he basically was paired with 1st time coaches whom gave him full reigns on the offensive side. I believe that gives him more insight into HC than most coordinators. 

Offense Coaches Pool

Tom Cable

He runs a vertical offense which will utilize our speedy recievers. Also he is a great o-line coach. Seahawks have not missed a beat without Beast mode. He believes in execution more so than being cute. His blue collar work ethic should improve our line immensely.

 

Chances of staying 3 or more years

Great: had a incident when he was head coach for the Raiders.

 
Aaron Kromer

He has a history of putting together good offensive lines. Twice winning awards in New Orleans for his work protecting Drew Brees. In Chicago as OC they had 2nd highest scoring team and broke franchise records in in total yards, passing yards, passing touchdowns and first downs. In Buffalo he worked with a offensive line that was successful for 3 different backs and protected a running QB. He has ties to both Marc Tressman and Sean Payton.

 

Chances of staying 3 or more years

Great: he had troubles with Jay Cutler and leaked club news to media. Front offices will not be forgetting that anytime soon.

Bill Callahan OC

The man who built the Cowboys great line into what it is today. He uses a zone scheme thats in line with the head coach. Before the Cowboys he help the Jets set franchise records rushing the ball with 3 players going to Pro Bowl. Before that his Raiders led the league in rushing then the next year passing. Bill led the Raiders to their last superbowl appearance. This would be a glorified offensive line coach position. We have young offensive line that could use some guidance.

Chances of staying 3 or more years 

Moderate: He left Dallas as soon as possible after play calling was stripped from him.

 

Defensive Coaches Pool

Mike Nolan

Head coaching pedigree with the 49ers. Work all around the league. He has experience running 4-3, 3-4 and 4-2-5. He is very scheme versatile which could have us looking different week to week depending the opponent a la the Patriots.

 

Chances of staying 3 or more years

Moderate: during his coaching career he has always been a builder of defenses. I believe with the right tools he can be successful.

Rob Ryan

Similar to Wade Phillips he often improves the team defense tremendously in the first year. He runs a base 3-4 but gives the QB multiple looks to confuse them. This may work well in our division with the young and inexperienced QBs. Chuck is a defensive coach also and this may help Ryan succeed beyond his 1st season. Both Cowboys and Saints were in their 2nd or 3rd year in transforming from a 4-3 to a 3-4 when he was let go.

 

Chances of staying 3 or more years

Moderate: he seems to wear his welcome out with his personality. Players love him and playing for his family.

Winston Moss DC

He is the assistant head coach and LBs coach of the Packers. There are only few teams that always seems to be well prepared and the Packers win or lose are one of them. He worked hand in hand to shape the defense with Don Capers. He developed AJ Hawk and Clay Matthews (both as OLB and ILB). He help transform Julius Peppers from 4-3 DE to a 3-4 OLB. His development of players and discipline/preparation of his defense would be a change from the current regime
 
Chances of staying 3 or more years 

Moderate: He is already assistant head coach for the Packers. For some reason the Packers coaches haven't been top picks for up and coming jobs.
 

[BOTT]

Cable runs a vertical offense?  When was he ever an OC?

 

the modern NFL passing game centers around quick rhythmic passing ....short to intermediate.

[IndyD4U]

No Matt Patricia? 

 

That's my choice 

[Rally5]

There comes a time in every business where you have to ask yourself, where do I want to be, for the Colts that's clearly defined as a Champion yet again.  Then you have to access whether the people you have working to that end can assuredly get you there.  I think we have that sorted out at this point.  So I vote for people that we know have what it takes to build an NFL champion franchise.  No experimental assistants or college coaches for my vote.  I can't stand the Shanahans, Mike only made the Super Bowl because of John Elway in my opinion, he's been a .500 coach otherwise which I know is a contradiction but please allow me the one. I think with the allure of Andrew Luck you could pull a legitimate coach, this is my short list of "just get it done" candidates.

 

1. Cowher
2 .Harbaugh

3. Gruden

 

That's it, go get one of these guys and let him run the franchise like we did with Polian, amateur hour over.

 

 

[csmopar]

2 minutes ago, Rally5 said:

There comes a time in every business where you have to ask yourself, where do I want to be, for the Colts that's clearly defined as a Champion yet again.  Then you have to access whether the people you have working to that end can assuredly get you there.  I think we have that sorted out at this point.  So I vote for people that we know have what it takes to build an NFL champion franchise.  No experimental assistants or college coaches for my vote.  I can't stand the Shanahans, Mike only made the Super Bowl because of John Elway in my opinion, he's been a .500 coach otherwise which I know is a contradiction but please allow me the one. I think with the allure of Andrew Luck you could pull a legitimate coach, this is my short list of "just get it done" candidates.

 

1. Cowher
2 .Harbaugh

3. Gruden

 

That's it, go get one of these guys and let him run the franchise like we did with Polian, amateur hour over.

 

 

My thoughts exactly 

[Rally5]

8 minutes ago, IndyD4U said:

No Matt Patricia? 

 

That's my choice 

 

 

What's the success rate for NFL HC results for Patriot Assistant coaches so far?

 

Weis

Cronell

McDaniel

Mangini

Al Groh

Schwartz

O'Brien

 

Great coordinators, not great HC's...

 

 

[Smoke317]

5 minutes ago, IndyD4U said:

No Matt Patricia? 

 

That's my choice 

I'm not a big fan of Patricia. The Patriots defense hasn't been nowhere near as dominant as they used to be. The Patriots win mostly because of Brady and Gronk nowadays. Don't get me wrong, they are a sound defense with guys who've been in that system for a long time. They tackle well and are always prepared.  I think they will always be sound as long as Belichick is their head coach. Plus, I feel like the majority of their special game plans still come from Belichick. Maybe Patricia has learned from Bill but he seems like another coach on the Belichick tree who will fail as a head coach and end up being a defensive coordinator for the rest of his career. 

[IndyD4U]

3 minutes ago, Rally5 said:

What's the success rate for NFL HC results for Patriot Assistant coaches so far?

 

Weis

Cronell

McDaniel

Mangini

Al Groh

Schwartz

O'Brien

 

Great coordinators, not great HC's...

 

 

That stat means diddly squat. One does not equal the other... 

[Rally5]

Ok.

[jbaron04]

Pagano is not the issue it's note grigsons mistakes that's killing us. Colts be in right plays but players have no talent 

[Rally5]

31 minutes ago, BOTT said:

Cable runs a vertical offense?  When was he ever an OC?

 

the modern NFL passing game centers around quick rhythmic passing ....short to intermediate.

 

Cable was an Offensive Line Coach battlefield promoted during the Raiders coaching carousel years. To my knowledge, he's never been a coordinator and is definitely not HC material if you go back and look at his body of work.

[Smoke317]

12 minutes ago, Rally5 said:

What's the success rate for NFL HC results for Patriot Assistant coaches so far?

 

Weis

Cronell

McDaniel

Mangini

Al Groh

Schwartz

O'Brien

 

Great coordinators, not great HC's...

 

 

If I had to give one of those guys a chance, it'd be McDaniels. He failed in his first attempt but most do and he was young and had to deal with Cutler (the kind of QB to get any coach fired)...  I think he's learned a lot since then. Even went to Dungy for advice afterwards. So he's willing to learn from others.  He started under Saban in college. Been with the Pats & Belichick for every super bowl. Worked with one of the greatest qb's of all time. I think Luck would trust him.  I think he's waiting for the right opportunity this time (can't imagine a better one than Luck) or for Bill to retire and the Pats to give him the top job. Better get him now before something happens to Bill and McDaniels and Garopolo start winning Super Bowls in the near future rather than McDaniels and Luck...

 

Plus I think McDaniels would bring in the LB or DB coach from the pats (the next Patricia if you will once he leaves) to be his D coordinator. So we'd get the best of both worlds. Plus we'd be taking away from the Pats in the process. If you can't beat em, join em. 

[BOTT]

15 minutes ago, Rally5 said:

There comes a time in every business where you have to ask yourself, where do I want to be, for the Colts that's clearly defined as a Champion yet again.  Then you have to access whether the people you have working to that end can assuredly get you there.  I think we have that sorted out at this point.  So I vote for people that we know have what it takes to build an NFL champion franchise.  No experimental assistants or college coaches for my vote.  I can't stand the Shanahans, Mike only made the Super Bowl because of John Elway in my opinion, he's been a .500 coach otherwise which I know is a contradiction but please allow me the one. I think with the allure of Andrew Luck you could pull a legitimate coach, this is my short list of "just get it done" candidates.

 

1. Cowher
2 .Harbaugh

3. Gruden

 

That's it, go get one of these guys and let him run the franchise like we did with Polian, amateur hour over.

 

 

Two of those guys have been out of the league for a long time and the other is a far away dream.

[Rally5]

6 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

If I had to give one of those guys a chance, it'd be McDaniels. He failed in his first attempt but most do and he was young and had to deal with Cutler (the kind of QB to get any coach fired)...  I think he's learned a lot since then. Even went to Dungy for advice afterwards. So he's willing to learn from others.  He started under Saban in college. Been with the Pats & Belichick for every super bowl. Worked with one of the greatest qb's of all time. I think Luck would trust him.  I think he's waiting for the right opportunity this time (can't imagine a better one than Luck) or for Bill to retire and the Pats to give him the top job. Better get him now before something happens to Bill and McDaniels and Garopolo start winning Super Bowls in the near future rather than McDaniels and Luck...

 

 

If we had to give one a chance I would agree with you. You have to ask who are we going to bet the next 5 years on, that's another 1/3 of Lucks career, I'm just not willing to take a chance on that based on the short amount of time we have with the guy.  But, I doubt Jim calls me for my advice.

[Rally5]

3 minutes ago, BOTT said:

Two of those guys have been out of the league for a long time and the other is a far away dream.

 

So was Dick Vermeil and he came back won a Super Bowl.  Gibbs came back too....it can be done.  Heck,  I could get behind Tom Coughlin at this point. 

[OLD FAN MAN]

56 minutes ago, Mr. Too Proud said:

Kyle Shanahan HC 
He has been a offensive coordinator since 2008. The Falcons is on pace to be his 6 offense out of 9 that would rank in the top 10. Many may point that he has never been a head coach but he has already already dealt with his share of controversy. Public disputes with Cleveland front office, Donovan McNabb, RG3 and Roddy White. I think this will be a great culture shock from Chuck. He has players that rave about his system which is one reason why Alex Mack came to Atlanta after working with him in Cleveland. Here is a quick hit on his resumé.

Houston 
Matt Schaub was a top tier QB with him. He wasn’t very mobile and Kyle made adjustment to make him good to great in Houston. Aaron Foster and Steve Slauton was pretty much unknown before running for at least 1000 yards underneath Kyle and his offense.
Redskins 
RG3 won rookie of the year. He was a mobile QB that Kyle tailored his offensive strategy to. The complete opposite of Schaub yet similar success. He help Alfred Morris break out in the run game also.
Browns
Hoyer had his best season under Kyle Shanahan and he utilize his TEs more in with this team with Josh Gordon absence. His run game with Terrance West was strong enough to open up the play action for Hoyer. 
Atlanta 
He has a WR and RB in the top of their respective positions. Similar to us the Falcons don’t have a great o-line yet he has found success in a running game. Many people point at the team falling off after starting 5-0 but if you look closely you see they are near the top of the league in turning the ball over in the red zone. Not all turn overs are Kyle fault and if they just walk away with a touchdown or 3 their record would look different.

I feel this team has more weapons than he ever had access to. Similar to his father i think he allows almost any RB to get near 1000 yards. He fits his system to the strength of the players and found success with different types of QBs (mobile, strong arm, west coast, read option, pocket QB and time managers).

Lastly at the Browns and Falcons he basically was paired with 1st time coaches whom gave him full reigns on the offensive side. I believe that gives him more insight into HC than most coordinators. 

Offense Coaches Pool

Tom Cable

He runs a vertical offense which will utilize our speedy recievers. Also he is a great o-line coach. Seahawks have not missed a beat without Beast mode. He believes in execution more so than being cute. His blue collar work ethic should improve our line immensely.

 

Chances of staying 3 or more years

Great: had a incident when he was head coach for the Raiders.

 
Aaron Kromer

He has a history of putting together good offensive lines. Twice winning awards in New Orleans for his work protecting Drew Brees. In Chicago as OC they had 2nd highest scoring team and broke franchise records in in total yards, passing yards, passing touchdowns and first downs. In Buffalo he worked with a offensive line that was successful for 3 different backs and protected a running QB. He has ties to both Marc Tressman and Sean Payton.

 

Chances of staying 3 or more years

Great: he had troubles with Jay Cutler and leaked club news to media. Front offices will not be forgetting that anytime soon.

Bill Callahan OC

The man who built the Cowboys great line into what it is today. He uses a zone scheme thats in line with the head coach. Before the Cowboys he help the Jets set franchise records rushing the ball with 3 players going to Pro Bowl. Before that his Raiders led the league in rushing then the next year passing. Bill led the Raiders to their last superbowl appearance. This would be a glorified offensive line coach position. We have young offensive line that could use some guidance.

Chances of staying 3 or more years 

Moderate: He left Dallas as soon as possible after play calling was stripped from him.

 

Defensive Coaches Pool

Mike Nolan

Head coaching pedigree with the 49ers. Work all around the league. He has experience running 4-3, 3-4 and 4-2-5. He is very scheme versatile which could have us looking different week to week depending the opponent a la the Patriots.

 

Chances of staying 3 or more years

Moderate: during his coaching career he has always been a builder of defenses. I believe with the right tools he can be successful.

Rob Ryan

Similar to Wade Phillips he often improves the team defense tremendously in the first year. He runs a base 3-4 but gives the QB multiple looks to confuse them. This may work well in our division with the young and inexperienced QBs. Chuck is a defensive coach also and this may help Ryan succeed beyond his 1st season. Both Cowboys and Saints were in their 2nd or 3rd year in transforming from a 4-3 to a 3-4 when he was let go.

 

Chances of staying 3 or more years

Moderate: he seems to wear his welcome out with his personality. Players love him and playing for his family.

Winston Moss DC

He is the assistant head coach and LBs coach of the Packers. There are only few teams that always seems to be well prepared and the Packers win or lose are one of them. He worked hand in hand to shape the defense with Don Capers. He developed AJ Hawk and Clay Matthews (both as OLB and ILB). He help transform Julius Peppers from 4-3 DE to a 3-4 OLB. His development of players and discipline/preparation of his defense would be a change from the current regime
 
Chances of staying 3 or more years 

Moderate: He is already assistant head coach for the Packers. For some reason the Packers coaches haven't been top picks for up and coming jobs.
 

good post

[GoColtsWin]

12 minutes ago, Rally5 said:

So was Dick Vermeil and he came back won a Super Bowl.  Gibbs came back too....it can be done.  Heck,  I could get behind Tom Coughlin at this point. 

This^

[2006Coltsbestever]

My Top 3 candidates would be:

1. Jim Harbaugh - for obvious reasons, Great as a Pro Coach and College Coach. When he took over the 49ers they were crap, then they went to a SB, he leaves and the 49ers are crap again. Look at Michigan now, they are undefeated and just beat someone 78-0.

2. Urban Meyer - Meyer is 56-4 with Ohio State, has won 3 National Championships and reminds me of Jimmy Johnson, he is only 52 years old as well.

3. Matt Patricia - Been with Belichick for a while and is very smart = great Football mind. Has a ring from 2014. He is real young too, someone the team should be able to relate too easily.

[Rally5]

6 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

My Top 3 candidates would be:

1. Jim Harbaugh - for obvious reasons, Great as a Pro Coach and College Coach. When he took over the 49ers they were crap, then they went to a SB, he leaves and the 49ers are crap again. Look at Michigan now, they are undefeated and just beat someone 78-0.

2. Urban Meyer - Meyer is 56-4 with Ohio State, has won a National Championship and reminds me of Jimmy Johnson, he is only 52 years old as well.

3. Matt Patricia - Been with Belichick for a while and is very smart = great Football mind. Has a ring from 2014. He is real young too, someone the team should be able to relate too easily.

 

I don't think anything about Urban Meyer translates to the NFL.  His system, his approach and most importantly the stress level.  This is a guy who gets hospitalized if he loses more than one game per year, had to quit Florida as a result.  FANTASTIC college coach!

[BOTT]

36 minutes ago, Rally5 said:

So was Dick Vermeil and he came back won a Super Bowl.  Gibbs came back too....it can be done.  Heck,  I could get behind Tom Coughlin at this point. 

So, one guy was successful? Lol, I kid.

 

according to JMV, Gruden is a no-go with Irsay

[coach kline]

I think Irsay. Has given up on this year  and we'll see new things next year.

[Rally5]

Just now, BOTT said:

So, one guy was successful? Lol, I kid.

 

according to JMV, Gruden is a no-go with Irsay

 

I think one fo the reasons we still have Chuck is because there is a lack of elite NFL HC's out there, Irsay needs to decide what matters most to him I suppose....it's his team, we're just the customers. 

 

 

[BOTT]

1 minute ago, Rally5 said:

I think one fo the reasons we still have Chuck is because there is a lack of elite NFL HC's out there, Irsay needs to decide what matters most to him I suppose....it's his team, we're just the customers. 

 

 

Apparently, Irsay was interested in 3  of coaches, but couldn't get any of them/they were unavailable.  One being Sean Payton.

[Rally5]

...

[2006Coltsbestever]

Coughlin will always have beating the Patriots twice in the SB. How he did it I have no idea but he did and I am glad he did . Having said that the Giants failed to make the Playoffs in his last 4 seasons and the Giants were making all kinds of dumb undisciplined plays to lose games last season like we are now. He is also too old as well, isn't he in his 70's? 

[Rally5]

1 minute ago, BOTT said:

Apparently, Irsay was interested in 3  of coaches, but couldn't get any of them/they were unavailable.  One being Sean Payton.

 

Hmm, interesting, any insights as to why?

[Rally5]

1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Coughlin will always have beating the Patriots twice in the SB. How he did it I have no idea but he did and I am glad he did . Having said that the Giants failed to make the Playoffs in his last 4 seasons and the Giants were making all kinds of dumb undisciplined plays to lose games last season like we are now. He is also too old as well, isn't he in his 70's? 

 

All true, you have to believe you could get three good years.

[1959Colts]

Jon Gruden

[richard pallo]

Very nice analysis and some good choices.  Personally If he makes a change I think it would be a head coach from one of the major universities. I don't see him going the assistant route from another team.  No time to take a chance on seeing whether an assistant can do the job. If he comes from college he will run the whole show.   The no.1 guy is Saban especially if he wins another championship.   I think he would be ready to move and Luck, obviously,  would be hard to pass up.  Others;  Harbaugh, Meyer and Ferentz.  Harbaugh too soon, Ferentz and Meyer maybe.  I think it will Saban if he makes a change.  Gruden is the only one of the announcers I would consider.  But I think Saban would be the target if he wins another.  

[BOTT]

9 minutes ago, Rally5 said:

Hmm, interesting, any insights as to why?

I don't know who the other two were.

[Mr. Too Proud]

1 hour ago, BOTT said:

Cable runs a vertical offense?  When was he ever an OC?

 

the modern NFL passing game centers around quick rhythmic passing ....short to intermediate.

He was head coach for the Raiders so yes it was a different time in the NFL. I look at our success with Bruce Arians and how Luck was throwing the ball down the field. 

[Colts_Fan12]

25 minutes ago, BOTT said:

I don't know who the other two were.

How you feel about Mike Pettine? I thought I had seen you bring him up once before 

[Boiler_Colt]

24 minutes ago, BOTT said:

I don't know who the other two were.

I believe JMV alluded to the 3 being Harbaugh, Saban, and Payton. The first two gave Irsay a hard pass and Payton was still under contract and he wanted too much $ and the Saints wanted two draft picks in return.

[Mr. Too Proud]

1 hour ago, FACE REALITY said:

good post

Thanks

[Mr. Too Proud]

8 minutes ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

How you feel about Mike Pettine? I thought I had seen you bring him up once before 

I actually thought about a defensive coach as head coach but i felt like we've  (the colts) have done that for so many years. He was the HC while Kyle Shanahan was in Cleveland so it may be a connection for him to come in as coordinator.

[Colts_Fan12]

1 minute ago, Mr. Too Proud said:

I actually thought about a defensive coach as head coach but i felt like we've  (the colts) have done that for so many years. He was the HC while Kyle Shanahan was in Cleveland so it may be a connection for him to come in as coordinator.

I like him he had the Browns D playing good while HC I think he could be a good coach if giving a team to work with the Browns don't count 

[Mr. Too Proud]

43 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

Very nice analysis and some good choices.  Personally If he makes a change I think it would be a head coach from one of the major universities. I don't see him going the assistant route from another team.  No time to take a chance on seeing whether an assistant can do the job. If he comes from college he will run the whole show.   The no.1 guy is Saban especially if he wins another championship.   I think he would be ready to move and Luck, obviously,  would be hard to pass up.  Others;  Harbaugh, Meyer and Ferentz.  Harbaugh too soon, Ferentz and Meyer maybe.  I think it will Saban if he makes a change.  Gruden is the only one of the announcers I would consider.  But I think Saban would be the target if he wins another.  

The job security of College football makes it hard to leave. Saban gets top recruiting classes every year and for the most part total control. Why leave that for the NFLwhere any given Sunday someone can win and the draft where great teams normally do not get the best players.

[Mr. Too Proud]

2 minutes ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

I like him he had the Browns D playing good while HC I think he could be a good coach if giving a team to work with the Browns don't count 

Lets be honest..... I love my Colts but in their current condition are they really a team at the top of the list when it comes to NFL coaching gigs? I look at McDaniels and Patrica why leave a superbowl contender for us? Why would Gurden leave a well paid cushy job for the Colts. Why would Harbaugh leave Michigan for us. And thats why I looked at a young coordinator

[Colts_Fan12]

1 minute ago, Mr. Too Proud said:

Lets be honest..... I love my Colts but in their current condition are they really a team at the top of the list when it comes to NFL coaching gigs? I look at McDaniels and Patrica why leave a superbowl contender for us? Why would Gurden leave a well paid cushy job for the Colts. Why would Harbaugh leave Michigan for us. And thats why I looked at a young coordinator

If we fire that Jack * Grigson then sure this would be a good job. If we keep him then no one would want it and I wouldn't blame them. Honestly you get Luck and the offense is pretty damn good. We just need smart coaches and a better GM that knows what talent looks like and we could turn this around. if we were to get a top 5 pick this year and a better GM we could really do some good in the draft.

[Mr. Too Proud]

1 hour ago, Rally5 said:

Cable was an Offensive Line Coach battlefield promoted during the Raiders coaching carousel years. To my knowledge, he's never been a coordinator and is definitely not HC material if you go back and look at his body of work.

Yes i agree I would want Kyle Shanahan like Sean Payton was doing in New Orleans call the plays. I don't mind a glorified offensive line coach if they can fix the line issues. He also has been in a couple of offenses since then so game planning would be a plus from someone who has HC experience. But there are other options listed and not listed