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10 hours ago, ColtRider said:

 

To tell the truth of it all, I wouldn't mind a bit if the Colts chose Billings. I prefer Ragland at LB as opposed to the NT position Billings. Ragland, IMO, has the capacity and tools to become a very good to great LB in the NFL. That's the target of any good defensive group; their LB corps. Always has been. 

 

So, the starting point begins there. Why would anyone be opposed to that? 

Because it doesn't start there

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13 hours ago, ProblChld32 said:

Here are some Draft prospects that have already been identified as being tied to the Colts. Of the players below whom would you like to see the Colts make a play at in the Draft?

 

Prospects associated with the Colts: 
» Mackensie Alexander, CB, Clemson: Pagano chats with corner at Clemson's pro day 
» Alex Balducci, DT, Oregon: Balducci spotted with Colts at Shrine Game 
» Lloyd Carrington, DB, Arizona State: Carrington spotted with Colts at Shrine Game 
» Roger Lewis, WR, Bowling Green: Colts WR coach attends at pro day 
» Luther Maddy, DT, Virginia Tech: Maddy spotted with Colts at Shrine Game 
» Reggie Ragland, ILB, Alabama: Ragland will work out for Colts

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000644056/article/afc-south-draft-winds-rumors-connecting-players-nfl-teams

 

Gonna move this to the Colts visits thread in the draft section.

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12 hours ago, ColtRider said:

 

What? Besides coaching, are you talking about the LBs as not being the core starting point for a great defense? 

LBs aren't the core for a great defense.  If you want to know who the core of a great defense is, look who's getting paid the most money.  

 

EDIT: To clarify, off the ball linebackers are not the core of a great defense.  I guess technically a 3-4 Rush or Sam backer is technically a linebacker, but functionality-wise, they are more lineman than they are linebackers.

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2 minutes ago, OffensivelyPC said:

LBs aren't the core for a great defense.  If you want to know who the core of a great defense is, look who's getting paid the most money.

That would be the most productive players, Not necessarily a position group on defense

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42 minutes ago, OffensivelyPC said:

LBs aren't the core for a great defense.  If you want to know who the core of a great defense is, look who's getting paid the most money.  

 

EDIT: To clarify, off the ball linebackers are not the core of a great defense.  I guess technically a 3-4 Rush or Sam backer is technically a linebacker, but functionality-wise, they are more lineman than they are linebackers.

 

All I can do to respond is shake my head. Wow. 

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4 minutes ago, ColtRider said:

 

All I can do to respond is shake my head. Wow. 

Why?  I think it's pretty conclusive evidence that the top 10 DEs and 3-4OLBs are paid more money than the top 10 4-3LBs and 3-4 ILBs.  You can shake your head all you want, but when teams allocate more money to a particular position, that's the team basically saying your position is more important than positions we pay less money to.  How is that wrong?  

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2 minutes ago, OffensivelyPC said:

Why?  I think it's pretty conclusive evidence that the top 10 DEs and 3-4OLBs are paid more money than the top 10 4-3LBs and 3-4 ILBs.  You can shake your head all you want, but when teams allocate more money to a particular position, that's the team basically saying your position is more important than positions we pay less money to.  How is that wrong?  

 

DEs do not run the defensive calls or sets. The LB position is much more pivitol to a team defense than another position by the mere fact of making more money.

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8 minutes ago, OffensivelyPC said:

Why?  I think it's pretty conclusive evidence that the top 10 DEs and 3-4OLBs are paid more money than the top 10 4-3LBs and 3-4 ILBs.  You can shake your head all you want, but when teams allocate more money to a particular position, that's the team basically saying your position is more important than positions we pay less money to.  How is that wrong?  

2 minutes ago, ColtRider said:

 

DEs do not run the defensive calls or sets. The LB position is much more pivitol to a team defense than another position by the mere fact of making more money.

 

You are mistaking market inequalities with importance.  Scarcity increases value in the market but not necessarily to winning football games.  Imagine the Ravens without Ray Lewis, the 49ers without Willis and Bowman, the Bears without Urlacher, etc.  those stout defenses would not have been as good.  Even last year's Super Bowl participants relied on the leadership of the inside linebacker position.  Marshall, Treviathan, and Kuechly were just as important to the team as any another piece.  If you cannot stop the run and cover receivers, the pass rush is a moot point.  Pass rushers are paid more due to the lack of availability of good ones not that they are more important than the linebacker position.  You can have all the pass rushers you want but if you do not have good linebackers to cover and stop the run then you will not be winning much.

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5 minutes ago, Dilger85 said:

 

You are mistaking market inequalities with importance.  Scarcity increases value in the market but not necessarily to winning football games.  Imagine the Ravens without Ray Lewis, the 49ers without Willis and Bowman, the Bears without Urlacher, etc.  those stout defenses would not have been as good.  Even last year's Super Bowl participants relied on the leadership of the inside linebacker position.  Marshall, Treviathan, and Kuechly were just as important to the team as any another piece.  If you cannot stop the run and cover receivers, the pass rush is a moot point.  Pass rushers are paid more due to the lack of availability of good ones not that they are more important than the linebacker position.  You can have all the pass rushers you want but if you do not have good linebackers to cover and stop the run then you will not be winning much.

 

Exactly. And I really thought all of what you've stated here was a given by most fans.

Guess I was wrong. Old school jocks like myself have a tendency to do that nowadays. 

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26 minutes ago, Dilger85 said:

 

You are mistaking market inequalities with importance.  Scarcity increases value in the market but not necessarily to winning football games.  Imagine the Ravens without Ray Lewis, the 49ers without Willis and Bowman, the Bears without Urlacher, etc.  those stout defenses would not have been as good.  Even last year's Super Bowl participants relied on the leadership of the inside linebacker position.  Marshall, Treviathan, and Kuechly were just as important to the team as any another piece.  If you cannot stop the run and cover receivers, the pass rush is a moot point.  Pass rushers are paid more due to the lack of availability of good ones not that they are more important than the linebacker position.  You can have all the pass rushers you want but if you do not have good linebackers to cover and stop the run then you will not be winning much.

We could play that game all day regarding what certain teams would be like without so and so.  What about the 2015 Broncos without Ware and Miller, or the 2011 Giants without JPP and Justin Tuck.  Even the 49ers you mention had Aldon Smith who turned in 20 sacks that year and Ahmad Brooks who turned in another 6.5.  The Ravens, fine, but of course you're talking about a top 2 or 3 greatest ILB of all time.  I'll concede that one.  2013 Seahawks had one of the greatest defenses of all time, but their most powerful and credited positions for their success was the secondary and defensive line.

 

Scarcity increases value in the market but so does demand.  The bottom line is teams still allocate a certain percentage of cap to certain positions.  And they allocate more of their cap space to certain positions because they are more important.  ILB is down the list.  That's because the supply and demand on ILBs is such that they are more easily replaceable than pass rushing lineman.  Period.  If you're easily replaceable, you're clearly not as important.  So like I said, certain positions get paid more because they are more important.  No one disputes QB being the most important position on offense.  That's why they are paid the way tehy are.

 

To the bolded, it's just as much the lineman's responsibility to stop the run as it is the LBs, but when you have a great defensive line like all the team's I have mentioned, your MLBs job gets infinitely easier because they can roam freely behind the line.    

 

Anyhow, we have a fundamental disagreement here.  That's fine.  

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We all can debate on what our opinion are on what position is most important. Each team has their strong players and it can be any position. To say one is more important than the other really makes no difference. Football is too much of a team sport to say one position is more important than another. Some consider JJ Watt the best defensive player in the league. How many championship teams has he played on? My personal opinion is games are won in the trenches. But it is a collective unit that wins games, not one position.

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19 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

We all can debate on what our opinion are on what position is most important. Each team has their strong players and it can be any position. To say one is more important than the other really makes no difference. Football is too much of a team sport to say one position is more important than another. Some consider JJ Watt the best defensive player in the league. How many championship teams has he played on? My personal opinion is games are won in the trenches. But it is a collective unit that wins games, not one position.

Well, I agree that it is a collective unit that wins games.  I still think that your importance to a team is directly tied to how much you get paid (excluding rookies, since they don't have much room for negotiation).  There are other variables, sure.  

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1 minute ago, OffensivelyPC said:

Well, I agree that it is a collective unit that wins games.  I still think that your importance to a team is directly tied to how much you get paid (excluding rookies, since they don't have much room for negotiation).  There are other variables, sure.  

Correct, The old saying supply and demand is in full force in the NFL. Skill players seem to get the big money but they cant do their jobs without the grunts.

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52 minutes ago, OffensivelyPC said:

We could play that game all day regarding what certain teams would be like without so and so.  What about the 2015 Broncos without Ware and Miller, or the 2011 Giants without JPP and Justin Tuck.  Even the 49ers you mention had Aldon Smith who turned in 20 sacks that year and Ahmad Brooks who turned in another 6.5.  The Ravens, fine, but of course you're talking about a top 2 or 3 greatest ILB of all time.  I'll concede that one.  2013 Seahawks had one of the greatest defenses of all time, but their most powerful and credited positions for their success was the secondary and defensive line.

 

Scarcity increases value in the market but so does demand.  The bottom line is teams still allocate a certain percentage of cap to certain positions.  And they allocate more of their cap space to certain positions because they are more important.  ILB is down the list.  That's because the supply and demand on ILBs is such that they are more easily replaceable than pass rushing lineman.  Period.  If you're easily replaceable, you're clearly not as important.  So like I said, certain positions get paid more because they are more important.  No one disputes QB being the most important position on offense.  That's why they are paid the way tehy are.

 

To the bolded, it's just as much the lineman's responsibility to stop the run as it is the LBs, but when you have a great defensive line like all the team's I have mentioned, your MLBs job gets infinitely easier because they can roam freely behind the line.    

 

Anyhow, we have a fundamental disagreement here.  That's fine.  

34 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Correct, The old saying supply and demand is in full force in the NFL. Skill players seem to get the big money but they cant do their jobs without the grunts.

I agree with crazycolt1.  Importance to a team is not directly related to the players compensation.  Is Arthur Jones more important than D'Qwell Jackson because he was paid more last year.  The same market inequalities happen in the draft.  QBs, LTs, and pass rushers are all over drafted while better all around players slip.  I would start to build a defense around a solid MLB before any other pieces were in place.  I can scheme a pass rush but it is hard to scheme an attitude.  Any good defense will have quality MLB or ILBs.  The 2013 Seahawks had Bobby Wagner who has made the last two pro bowls as a MLB.

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3 hours ago, Dilger85 said:

I agree with crazycolt1.  Importance to a team is not directly related to the players compensation.  Is Arthur Jones more important than D'Qwell Jackson because he was paid more last year.  The same market inequalities happen in the draft.  QBs, LTs, and pass rushers are all over drafted while better all around players slip.  I would start to build a defense around a solid MLB before any other pieces were in place.  I can scheme a pass rush but it is hard to scheme an attitude.  Any good defense will have quality MLB or ILBs.  The 2013 Seahawks had Bobby Wagner who has made the last two pro bowls as a MLB.

 

Agreed. MLB/ILB/OLB are the starting point focus to building a formidable defense. Out of the 10 Defensive Super Bowl MVPs selected over the years, "4" have been LBs. Two of them within the last 3 years. Malcolm Smith/Seattle & Von Miller/Denver. The LB position & their core set the tone for the entire defense. The vast versatility & responsibility required by them both physically & mentality is beyond reproach by the rest of the defensive players. 

 

They are, in essence, the QBs of the defense. It's quite a well known fact that the QB of the offense is so very critical to it's success. Same goes for the flip side of the coin on defense as it relates to the LBs. They are the field generals. The decision makers & playcallers. The captains. 

 

I'll take a great LB/and or corps to develop a very good to great defense without any hesitation at all. The nucleus of any past/present/future great defensive teams.

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19 hours ago, Dilger85 said:

I agree with crazycolt1.  Importance to a team is not directly related to the players compensation.  Is Arthur Jones more important than D'Qwell Jackson because he was paid more last year.  The same market inequalities happen in the draft.  QBs, LTs, and pass rushers are all over drafted while better all around players slip.  I would start to build a defense around a solid MLB before any other pieces were in place.  I can scheme a pass rush but it is hard to scheme an attitude.  Any good defense will have quality MLB or ILBs.  The 2013 Seahawks had Bobby Wagner who has made the last two pro bowls as a MLB.

Agree to disagree.

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regardless of base salary at a position, or which positions get more money, its the players that out play their salary that make for a great defense...  You need players who are willing to look past the amount of money and play because they have the will and desire to always play to the next level.  I feel like Manning had that.  Never satisfied, and only thinks of the money when it was time to think of the money.  we need more of that mindset to have a stellar defense. 

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I'm not sure that this is the place for it but:

Quote

 

 

Campbell
Defensive tackle Greg Milhouse looked terrific at Campbell pro day.

He measured 6013, 295 pounds, completed 26 reps on the bench, posted a vertical jump of 33.5 inches and a broad of 9-3. His 40s were clocked in the 4.8s and he posted a 3-cone time of 7.5.

I'm told afterward he interviewed with a bunch of teams including the Dallas Cowboys, New York Giants, Miami Dolphins, Indianapolis Colts and Philadelphia Eagles.

Milhouse is described as "the real deal" by scouts and a "hard worker who'll make an NFL roster".

 

http://walterfootball.com/proday.php

 

I haven't heard of this guy, anybody watched him?

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Here's the updated NFL.com list.

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000644056/article/afc-south-draft-winds-rumors-connecting-players-nfl-teams?akmobile=ios&akcarrier=other

 

New additions include:

-Jordan Jenkins (scheduled workout)

-Su'a Cravens (workout)

-Graham Glasgow

-Shilique Calhoun

-Austin Blythe (workout with Philbin)

-Yannick Ngakoue 

 

Some of these have been mentioned in topics on the board, but this is a condensed list.

 

Also IDK about Calhoun. It just says that Grigson was there, but he and Philbin were also there apparently looking at Conklin and Allen.

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On 3/17/2016 at 0:57 PM, Dilger85 said:

 

You are mistaking market inequalities with importance.  Scarcity increases value in the market but not necessarily to winning football games.  Imagine the Ravens without Ray Lewis, the 49ers without Willis and Bowman, the Bears without Urlacher, etc.  those stout defenses would not have been as good.  Even last year's Super Bowl participants relied on the leadership of the inside linebacker position.  Marshall, Treviathan, and Kuechly were just as important to the team as any another piece.  If you cannot stop the run and cover receivers, the pass rush is a moot point.  Pass rushers are paid more due to the lack of availability of good ones not that they are more important than the linebacker position.  You can have all the pass rushers you want but if you do not have good linebackers to cover and stop the run then you will not be winning much.

 

The lack of availability of good pass rushers is exactly why they are more valuable than ILBers. 

 

And Marshal and Trevethan were nowhere near as important as Derek Wolfe, Malik Jackson, and Von Miller were. 

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2 hours ago, Dustin said:

 

The lack of availability of good pass rushers is exactly why they are more valuable than ILBers. 

 

And Marshal and Trevethan were nowhere near as important as Derek Wolfe, Malik Jackson, and Von Miller were. 

We are arguing semantics.  Those three you mentioned would not be as effective either without MLBs to stuff the run and cover the short outlet passes.  In order for pass rushers to be effective they need the other team to pass.  If the offense can run the ball effectively, execute a short passing game, and get rid of the ball quickly then those high priced pass rushers will not be as effective.  Justin Houston makes more money than Luke Kuechly but who do you think is more important to their team?

 

The pass rushers get the headlines because of who they are hunting.  Quarterbacks get paid more than the offensive line yet they are not nearly as effective with a bad Oline.  If a pass rusher is not put in situations that allow them to use their skills then they are not nearly as effective.  Being higher paid and more valuable does not necessarily mean more important to a team defense.

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4 hours ago, Dilger85 said:

We are arguing semantics.  Those three you mentioned would not be as effective either without MLBs to stuff the run and cover the short outlet passes.  In order for pass rushers to be effective they need the other team to pass.  If the offense can run the ball effectively, execute a short passing game, and get rid of the ball quickly then those high priced pass rushers will not be as effective.  Justin Houston makes more money than Luke Kuechly but who do you think is more important to their team?

 

The pass rushers get the headlines because of who they are hunting.  Quarterbacks get paid more than the offensive line yet they are not nearly as effective with a bad Oline.  If a pass rusher is not put in situations that allow them to use their skills then they are not nearly as effective.  Being higher paid and more valuable does not necessarily mean more important to a team defense.

 

Justin Houston.

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6 minutes ago, Dustin said:

 

Justin Houston.

I think you are crazy but agree to disagree.  Give me a guy that can cover, stop the run, and blitz any day of the week.

 

Just looking at the stat line from last year:

Houston 30 tackles, 7.5 sacks, 1 forced fumble, 2 ints, 6 Pdefs, 1 TD

Kuechly 118 tackles, 1.0 sack, 2 forced fumble, 4 ints, 10 Pdefs, 1 TD

 

4.5 sacks from Houston were in the 4th quarter (2.5 with margins over 7 points)

Kuechly had a relatively even amount of tackles over all four quarters 38,44,27,36

 

These stats were from the respective player profile pages on NFL.com

Houston http://www.nfl.com/player/justinhouston/2495493/profile

Kuechly http://www.nfl.com/player/lukekuechly/2533056/profile

 

My view is the player that has the most impact on the most amount of plays through the game is the more difficult player to loose hence more important.  Players like Houston and Kuechly do not grow on trees but I would take a stud middle linebacker with a second tier pass rusher than the other way around.  Why did the Packers shift Matthews inside?  Matthews was/is an elite pass rusher correct but they wanted a better run defense so they switched the best pass rusher they had to play inside because it was important to the rest of the defense.

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Arkansas State

Tight end Darion Griswold, who participated in the Shrine Game and Senior Bowl, measured 6034, 250 pounds, timed in the high 4.7s/low 4.8s in the 40 and posted a vertical jump of 32 inches.

 

Griswold met a bit with the Green Bay Packers and also spent significant time with the Indianapolis Colts.

 

Receiver J.D. McKissic measured 5100, 187 pounds, timed 4.58 in the 40, touched 37 in the vertical jump and 10-2 in the broad jump. He also completed 17 reps on the bench. After a good positional workout, running routes and catching passes, McKissic fielded punts for a while.

 

It should be noted several people told me the workout surface at Arkansas State was a slow, sticky one.

 

http://walterfootball.com/proday.php

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3 hours ago, Dilger85 said:

I think you are crazy but agree to disagree.  Give me a guy that can cover, stop the run, and blitz any day of the week.

 

Just looking at the stat line from last year:

Houston 30 tackles, 7.5 sacks, 1 forced fumble, 2 ints, 6 Pdefs, 1 TD

Kuechly 118 tackles, 1.0 sack, 2 forced fumble, 4 ints, 10 Pdefs, 1 TD

 

4.5 sacks from Houston were in the 4th quarter (2.5 with margins over 7 points)

Kuechly had a relatively even amount of tackles over all four quarters 38,44,27,36

 

These stats were from the respective player profile pages on NFL.com

Houston http://www.nfl.com/player/justinhouston/2495493/profile

Kuechly http://www.nfl.com/player/lukekuechly/2533056/profile

 

My view is the player that has the most impact on the most amount of plays through the game is the more difficult player to loose hence more important.  Players like Houston and Kuechly do not grow on trees but I would take a stud middle linebacker with a second tier pass rusher than the other way around.  Why did the Packers shift Matthews inside?  Matthews was/is an elite pass rusher correct but they wanted a better run defense so they switched the best pass rusher they had to play inside because it was important to the rest of the defense.

 

Tackles are a completely worthless stat.

 

http://vikingsterritory.com/2014/analysis/minnesota-vikings-chad-greenway-has-been-bad-at-football-for-three-years

 

Sacks are also a completely worthless stats. Sacks are a handful of plays over a sample size of hundreds of snaps. Houston got a ton pressure and QB hits over the course the his season. 

 

ILBers aren't that valuable because the difference between a good one and an average one is negligible. 

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15 hours ago, Dustin said:

 

Tackles are a completely worthless stat.

 

http://vikingsterritory.com/2014/analysis/minnesota-vikings-chad-greenway-has-been-bad-at-football-for-three-years

 

Sacks are also a completely worthless stats. Sacks are a handful of plays over a sample size of hundreds of snaps. Houston got a ton pressure and QB hits over the course the his season. 

 

ILBers aren't that valuable because the difference between a good one and an average one is negligible. 

I read through that article that you posted and nowhere does it state that they are completely useless.  It states that they are unofficial, unreliable, yada, yada, but it also does not list QB hits and QB pressures as being a official stat so are those worthless as well?  The article also alludes to the design of most defenses is to funnel the ball carriers to the tackle making linebackers which makes them more important than you are giving them credit for because what happens when a linebacker has a high missed tackle rate, what happens when a linebacker cannot cover?  Another reason that pass rushers are paid more is that Sacks are an official stat and can be used as incentives in contracts which raises the overall cost of the contract.

 

The difference between a good and average pass rushers is negligible as well.  It is the elite or great pass rushers that stand out and the same can be said for ILBs.

 

I am not budging on my belief that a pass rusher is not more important to a defense than a middle linebacker and I never will.  It is obvious that you will not change your mind either.  It is hard to stop a running game without solid to great linebacker play just as it is hard to pressure the quarterback without solid to great pass rushers but what happens when your defense cannot stop the run?  Your defense will be ineffective because the offense is still two dimensional and less predictable or you are getting the ball ran down your throat and those high priced pass rushers are useless.

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5 hours ago, Dilger85 said:

I read through that article that you posted and nowhere does it state that they are completely useless.  It states that they are unofficial, unreliable, yada, yada, but it also does not list QB hits and QB pressures as being a official stat so are those worthless as well?  The article also alludes to the design of most defenses is to funnel the ball carriers to the tackle making linebackers which makes them more important than you are giving them credit for because what happens when a linebacker has a high missed tackle rate, what happens when a linebacker cannot cover?  Another reason that pass rushers are paid more is that Sacks are an official stat and can be used as incentives in contracts which raises the overall cost of the contract.

 

The difference between a good and average pass rushers is negligible as well.  It is the elite or great pass rushers that stand out and the same can be said for ILBs.

 

I am not budging on my belief that a pass rusher is not more important to a defense than a middle linebacker and I never will.  It is obvious that you will not change your mind either.  It is hard to stop a running game without solid to great linebacker play just as it is hard to pressure the quarterback without solid to great pass rushers but what happens when your defense cannot stop the run?  Your defense will be ineffective because the offense is still two dimensional and less predictable or you are getting the ball ran down your throat and those high priced pass rushers are useless.

 

Well I guess if you won't change your view in spite of the obvious overwhelming evidence against it then there's no reason to continue. 

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15 minutes ago, Dustin said:

 

Well I guess if you won't change your view in spite of the obvious overwhelming evidence against it then there's no reason to continue. 

Well we can agree that there is no reason to continue.  I just do not buy into the notion that a particular position group is more important than another given the affect that each position group has on the other.  I am not really seeing your overwhelming evidence either.

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Texas A&M
Germain Ifedi, the highest-rated Aggie, will sit on his Combine marks and just participate in position drills. Yesterday, Ifedi met with the New Orleans Saints and Indianapolis Colts. After the workout, he will meet with the Cleveland Browns.

 

Quote

Georgia Southern
Little-mentioned Antonio Glover had a solid pro day at GSU.

The safety measured 6004, 186 pounds, completed 16 reps on the bench, touched 37 inches in the vertical jump and a broad jump of 10-7. His 40 timed in the 4.5s, but the time was adjusted downwards to the 4.42s area as players ran the 40 on a soccer field due to the condition of the football field.

Glover, who has solid game film, met with the Tennessee Titans last night and the Detroit Lions this morning. He's flying to see the Indianapolis Colts on an official "30" visit.

 

 

Quote

Utah State
Kyler Fackrell had a very busy day at pro day. He completed 16 reps on the bench, one more than his Combine mark. He then completed both defensive end and linebacker drills.

The New York Jets ran Fackrell through a gauntlet of pass-rushing drills, allowing him to display his ability off the edge out of a three-point stance. Later, both the Jets and Indianapolis Colts pushed Fackrell through linebacker drills. I'm told the position drills lasted 45 minutes, and the Jets seem enamored with Fackrell.

Fackrell weighed in at 245 pounds, looked the part and moved well in drills. He was very good in coverage drills.

http://walterfootball.com/proday.php

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