Can we stop blaming Whalen now?

[ZAZA418]

Are you serious? With 3 defenders over the top of you? There is no way anything good comes out of snapping the ball. Pagano's reaction afterward pretty much confirms that ball was to stay planted on the ground. The kid f'd up plain and simple..

Wasn't the purpose of the play to catch the Pats with too many men on the field trying to react to the formation? So in that case you would snap the ball to get the penalty. According to Mccafee's explaination that was the plan. Which leads me to my second point, did Pagano really think a Belichick coached team would fall for that? and lastly, even if the Pats had tried to substitute and had too many men on the field, the Colts were still lined up illegally so it would have offset. poorly coached all around 

[Valpo2004]

Not really. Griff can't see if the pats have more than 11 on the field. The play originally was designed to be snapped if Colt put his hands on Griffs rear end. A timeout should have been called

 

 

You can make an excuse for Whalen all you want but the truth is the truth, don't snap the ball!

 

The above quoted post perfectly describes why it might have been snapped.  If the guy gave Griff the signal he was to snap it because we had caught the Pats with more then 11 on the field.  

 

You can't get that penalty without snapping the ball.

[Valpo2004]

Didn't we just confirm that Whalen snapped the ball when he wasn't supposed to?

 

Yes but he's not aware of that fact.  This article describes it perfectly

 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/griff-whalen-was-never-part-of-colts%E2%80%99-fake-punt-play-in-practice/ar-AAfFl6a?li=AAa0dzB

 

to simplify

 

1. Play is to get Pats to substitute and get too many men on field or burn timeout

2. Clayton Geathers is normal person who snaps ball.  Whalen doesn't practice this.

3. Geathers is injured so Whalen is sent in

4. Wrinkle was added to the play that isn't in the playbook where we take a delay of game

5. Whalen is unaware of wrinkle in play.

6. Playbook says if guy gets under center then snap

7. Guy gets under center

8. Whalen follows playbook, snaps ball.

 

Remember original idea is to catch too many men on field.  Whalen can't keep an eye on how many men are on the field, it's the guy under center's job to do that.  That guy gave him the pre-determined signal to snap based on the playbook.  The wrinkle that was added in practice where he doesn't snap the ball was not communicated to him.  

 

Any statements made in front of Pat's players about not snapping the ball can easily be written off as an effort to trick them.  Why would you say in front of the opposing team what the plan is????  Who does that??

 

This essentially means that this is nothing other then an epic coaching goof.  

[BleedBlu8792]

Wasn't the purpose of the play to catch the Pats with too many men on the field trying to react to the formation? So in that case you would snap the ball to get the penalty. According to Mccafee's explaination that was the plan. Which leads me to my second point, did Pagano really think a Belichick coached team would fall for that? and lastly, even if the Pats had tried to substitute and had too many men on the field, the Colts were still lined up illegally so it would have offset. poorly coached all around 

 

Not really. Griff can't see if the pats have more than 11 on the field. The play originally was designed to be snapped if Colt put his hands on Griffs rear end. A timeout should have been called

 

Just food for thought, Whalen came running down to the ball from the Pat's sideline. He would have noticed the substitutions if they were happening. Nobody ran off the field, up past him. On top of that Colt had his hands underneath Whalen for a good 2-3 seconds, with supposedly Colt telling him to not snap the ball. I don't see in any way, with the 3 defenders hovering over him, that Whalen thought it would have been a good idea to snap the ball.

[BleedBlu8792]

Yes but he's not aware of that fact.  This article describes it perfectly

 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/griff-whalen-was-never-part-of-colts%E2%80%99-fake-punt-play-in-practice/ar-AAfFl6a?li=AAa0dzB

 

to simplify

 

1. Play is to get Pats to substitute and get too many men on field or burn timeout

2. Clayton Geathers is normal person who snaps ball.  Whalen doesn't practice this.

3. Geathers is injured so Whalen is sent in

4. Wrinkle was added to the play that isn't in the playbook where we take a delay of game

5. Whalen is unaware of wrinkle in play.

6. Playbook says if guy gets under center then snap

7. Guy gets under center

8. Whalen follows playbook, snaps ball.

 

Remember original idea is to catch too many men on field.  Whalen can't keep an eye on how many men are on the field, it's the guy under center's job to do that.  That guy gave him the pre-determined signal to snap based on the playbook.  The wrinkle that was added in practice where he doesn't snap the ball was not communicated to him.  

 

Any statements made in front of Pat's players about not snapping the ball can easily be written off as an effort to trick them.  Why would you say in front of the opposing team what the plan is????

 

To the bolded: Because Colt was well aware the Pats hadn't substituted anyone. He, and Griff as well, had the best field of view to see that the Patriots didn't bring anyone on or off the field.

[CR91]

you would think the first thing you would ask is whether or not to snap the ball. even if he didnt know, you have to understand the situation. its 2 against 5, where in your right mind do you think this will go well if you snap the ball

[Superman]

Yes but he's not aware of that fact. This article describes it perfectly

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/griff-whalen-was-never-part-of-colts%E2%80%99-fake-punt-play-in-practice/ar-AAfFl6a?li=AAa0dzB

to simplify

1. Play is to get Pats to substitute and get too many men on field or burn timeout

2. Clayton Geathers is normal person who snaps ball. Whalen doesn't practice this.

3. Geathers is injured so Whalen is sent in

4. Wrinkle was added to the play that isn't in the playbook where we take a delay of game

5. Whalen is unaware of wrinkle in play.

6. Playbook says if guy gets under center then snap

7. Guy gets under center

8. Whalen follows playbook, snaps ball.

Remember original idea is to catch too many men on field. Whalen can't keep an eye on how many men are on the field, it's the guy under center's job to do that. That guy gave him the pre-determined signal to snap based on the playbook. The wrinkle that was added in practice where he doesn't snap the ball was not communicated to him.

Any statements made in front of Pat's players about not snapping the ball can easily be written off as an effort to trick them. Why would you say in front of the opposing team what the plan is???? Who does that??

This essentially means that this is nothing other then an epic coaching goof.

The play was obviously not executed well. It's been a coaching failure all along.

But Whalen isn't off the hook. He should not have snapped the ball.

[Cynjin]

On a side note, Pat going on the air with that explanation is not going to look good for him or the team. I know he was probably just trying to support a teammate, but it could easily be taken for throwing the coaches under the bus. He should have just kept it in the locker room.

[SurfinKal]

There is no longer any doubt in my mind that Coach Pagano needs to be fired.

[Mr.Debonair]

The control that Bill B and NE have over this orginaztio nod crazy

[chrisfarley]

I hope the mods let this stay up as I think it needs its own thread. But the guy who originally was supposed to be the center was Clayton Geathers. That's right, we used Whalen who never even practiced this ONCE in practice. It makes me question even more why the hell did we run this play? Just totally inexcusable by this coaching staff.

http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/nfl/colts/2015/10/20/indianapolis-colts-fake-punt-griff-whalen-colt-anderson-clayton-geathers/74273206

don't know how true it is but on 1070 the Fan, JMV just said something about Pagano could be gone as early as the bye week.  Was he speculating, or does he know something we don't????

[chrisfarley]

The play was obviously not executed well. It's been a coaching failure all along.

But Whalen isn't off the hook. He should not have snapped the ball.

Coaching failures of this magnitude, at this level of play, in this game, are inexcusable.  I am stunned at these new developments.

[1959Colts]

On ESPN NFL Live they are slamming Pagano for this.

The one reporter mentioned that the entire right side of the line was lined up illegally. Right in front of the Colts sidelines, yet the coaches didn't call time out.

[-JJ-]

Yes but he's not aware of that fact.  This article describes it perfectly

 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/griff-whalen-was-never-part-of-colts%E2%80%99-fake-punt-play-in-practice/ar-AAfFl6a?li=AAa0dzB

 

to simplify

 

1. Play is to get Pats to substitute and get too many men on field or burn timeout

2. Clayton Geathers is normal person who snaps ball.  Whalen doesn't practice this.

3. Geathers is injured so Whalen is sent in

4. Wrinkle was added to the play that isn't in the playbook where we take a delay of game

5. Whalen is unaware of wrinkle in play.

6. Playbook says if guy gets under center then snap

7. Guy gets under center

8. Whalen follows playbook, snaps ball.

 

Remember original idea is to catch too many men on field.  Whalen can't keep an eye on how many men are on the field, it's the guy under center's job to do that.  That guy gave him the pre-determined signal to snap based on the playbook.  The wrinkle that was added in practice where he doesn't snap the ball was not communicated to him.  

 

Any statements made in front of Pat's players about not snapping the ball can easily be written off as an effort to trick them.  Why would you say in front of the opposing team what the plan is????  Who does that??

 

This essentially means that this is nothing other then an epic coaching goof.  

I heard McAffee on the radio today which is pretty much word for word described above. There was an audible not to snap if NE didn't fall for it and take a delay of game and then punt. Whalen was never told about the audible.

[Solon]

Shouldn't have been sent out to snap the ball.

 

I understand that, but even if he didn't know about the play adjustment, why hike it when you're clearly outnumbered with Colt saying don't snap the ball?

[SilentHill]

This thread is ridiculous. It's Whalen's fault. I don't care who has a man crush on him.

[jvan1973]

This thread is ridiculous. It's Whalen's fault. I don't care who has a man crush on him.

Partially his fault. There is plenty of blame to go around

[1959Colts]

No. He still snapped the ball.

 

McAfee mentioned how one of the options Colt Anderson had was to try to catch the Patriots with 12 men on the field.

If Anderson counted 12 men, then he would have the Center snap the ball, and draw the penalty.

So there is a situation, in which the center is supposed to snap the ball.

 

McAfee also says, that Whalen was never told of the new wrinkle, that was just added to the trick play, where Anderson would use the "hard count", to try to draw the Pats offsides.

Whalen can not be expected to count all the Patriots players while he is bent over...

That would be Anderson's job.

Maybe Whalen thought Anderson noticed 12 men on the field, so he snapped it.

 

And if he didnt know the coaches had changed the design of the play (with the addition of the "hard count")...

In hindsight, can you still blame Whalen?

[Superman]

Coaching failures of this magnitude, at this level of play, in this game, are inexcusable.  I am stunned at these new developments.

 

As ugly as it was at the time, this isn't that big of a coaching failure. 

[Superman]

In hindsight, can you still blame Whalen?

 

Yes. He snapped the ball when he wasn't supposed to.

[The Fish]

Yes. He snapped the ball when he wasn't supposed to.

My first thought was, I'll bet he was telling himself over and over "don't snap the ball".

 

It's really a good example about why practice and preparation matters.

[1959Colts]

Pat McAfee provides best explanation yet of fake punt fiasco

[1959Colts]

Yes. He snapped the ball when he wasn't supposed to.

How do you know he snapped it when he wasnt supposed to?

Maybe Anderson goofed it up, and called for the ball to be snapped.

[chrisfarley]

As ugly as it was at the time, this isn't that big of a coaching failure. 

IYO

[backshoulderfade]

They still were nor lined up on the line of scrimmage. I would imagine all 8 players on the right side had practiced this play befor, starting early this spring. So it tells me that the coaching staff did not properly prepare the players. Pagano should fall on the sword and move. It's a pity his ego is getting in the way.

He has done nothing but take the blame for this. I'm sure he wants to move on but the media qill repeat these questions over and over.

[1959Colts]

Nine of our players line up illegally, right in front of our coaches, yet nobody thinks to call time out.

But of course... It's all Griff Whalen's fault!

[Dustin]

McAfee mentioned how one of the options Colt Anderson had was to try to catch the Patriots with 12 men on the field.

If Anderson counted 12 men, then he would have the Center snap the ball, and draw the penalty.

So there is a situation, in which the center is supposed to snap the ball.

McAfee also says, that Whalen was never told of the new wrinkle, that was just added to the trick play, where Anderson would use the "hard count", to try to draw the Pats offsides.

Whalen can not be expected to count all the Patriots players while he is bent over...

That would be Anderson's job.

Maybe Whalen thought Anderson noticed 12 men on the field, so he snapped it.

And if he didnt know the coaches had changed the design of the play (with the addition of the "hard count")...

In hindsight, can you still blame Whalen?

Yes

[Dustin]

How do you know he snapped it when he wasnt supposed to?

Maybe Anderson goofed it up, and called for the ball to be snapped.

Anderson literally said "don't snap the ball"

[Flash7]

Yes. He snapped the ball when he wasn't supposed to.

You may have already heard this, but this is what I know about the situation:

 

1. They practiced the play throughout the week with Geathers as the Center. Geathers was hurt and Whalen subbed in for him.

2. Whalen had not practiced this play and did not know the audible.

3. The play was designed to fool NE into thinking the punt team was running off of the field. If NE subbed extra guys in, then the Colts would snap the ball to get the penalty called on NE.

4. Anderson was supposed to look for this and only get under center if he expected the snap.

5. Anderson got under center but said the audible, which Whalen did not know. Then Whalen snapped the ball and we all know what happened after.

 

Hence the "miscommunication' that they have claimed all along. You can blame Whalen for snapping the ball, but in that situation he was the center with his head down and he had to trust Anderson playing the QB position, who was supposed to look at NE's defensive substitution.

[Superfly Jay]

How do you know he snapped it when he wasnt supposed to?

Maybe Anderson goofed it up, and called for the ball to be snapped.

Nope. Word on the street is that Colt told Griff three times not to snap the ball.

[Superman]

How do you know he snapped it when he wasnt supposed to?

Maybe Anderson goofed it up, and called for the ball to be snapped.

 

Just look at Anderson's reaction after the play. He didn't call for the ball to be snapped. And we all know that the ball wasn't supposed to be snapped.

[Superman]

Nine of our players line up illegally, right in front of our coaches, yet nobody thinks to call time out.

But of course... It's all Griff Whalen's fault!

 

Doesn't matter if they don't snap the ball.

[Superman]

IYO

 

This is an Internet message board. 

[Superman]

You may have already heard this, but this is what I know about the situation:

 

1. They practiced the play throughout the week with Geathers as the Center. Geathers was hurt and Whalen subbed in for him.

2. Whalen had not practiced this play and did not know the audible.

3. The play was designed to fool NE into thinking the punt team was running off of the field. If NE subbed extra guys in, then the Colts would snap the ball to get the penalty called on NE.

4. Anderson was supposed to look for this and only get under center if he expected the snap.

5. Anderson got under center but said the audible, which Whalen did not know. Then Whalen snapped the ball and we all know what happened after.

 

Hence the "miscommunication' that they have claimed all along. You can blame Whalen for snapping the ball, but in that situation he was the center with his head down and he had to trust Anderson playing the QB position, who was supposed to look at NE's defensive substitution.

 

I'm aware of all of that. Doesn't change the fact that he wasn't supposed to snap the ball. Whether from practice and preparation or on the basis of common sense, there is no way to justify him snapping the ball.

 

I feel bad for him, because he was obviously put in a bad situation, and it's obviously an oversight calling this play when he wasn't aware of the new wrinkle, but he still shouldn't have snapped the ball. And if he doesn't, worst case scenario is that we take the penalty and punt. By way of contrast, if he does snap -- even when logic tells you not to -- the worst case scenario is what we saw. 

[Flash7]

I'm aware of all of that. Doesn't change the fact that he wasn't supposed to snap the ball. Whether from practice and preparation or on the basis of common sense, there is no way to justify him snapping the ball.

 

I feel bad for him, because he was obviously put in a bad situation, and it's obviously an oversight calling this play when he wasn't aware of the new wrinkle, but he still shouldn't have snapped the ball. And if he doesn't, worst case scenario is that we take the penalty and punt. By way of contrast, if he does snap -- even when logic tells you not to -- the worst case scenario is what we saw. 

I agree that you can place blame on Whalen. He shouldn't have snapped the ball.

 

If I was able to place a percentage of blame, a much larger percentage would be placed on the coaches, followed by Whalen, then followed by Anderson. They can all be blamed, and the ALL should be blamed -- not just Whalen.

[1959Colts]

I'm aware of all of that. Doesn't change the fact that he wasn't supposed to snap the ball. Whether from practice and preparation or on the basis of common sense, there is no way to justify him snapping the ball...

 

 

According to Pat McAfee... Whalen was instructed to snap it. He was never told otherwise.

 

..."Griff has no idea we're trying to draw the guy offsides because in the play, it says if we get under center, snap it. So Colt Anderson is trying to draw a guy offsides to pick up an easy five yards. If not, we just don't snap it. We take a delay of game. ... So this is a 100 percent miscommunication. It's literally a miscommunication."

 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/13932517/griff-whalen-did-not-practice-indianapolis-colts-botched-fake-punt-according-punter-pat-mcafee

[Coffeedrinker]

Yes. He snapped the ball when he wasn't supposed to.

That is not true according to the article that 1959Colts linked.

[chrisfarley]

That is not true according to the article that 1959Colts linked.

Correct, he snapped the ball as soon as he felt CA's hands contacting his posterior.  

[Coffeedrinker]

I guess overall, I'm a bit confused by the thread.  Whether or not he should have snapped the ball can be argued till the cows come home and it's obvious no one is going to change his/her mind.

 

But if Colt was telling him to not snap the ball and then he puts his hands under center (the signal to snap the ball) then that seems like Colt's fault more than Whalens.  That is kind of like calling an audible.

 

But do people think that this actually cost the Colts the game?  There were a lot worse mistakes than the punt play that cost the Colts the game.

 

Lastly, I will say, we all do bone headed things at times at work.  I guarantee you that if I came an observed anyone on this forum at work, I'm sure I could find several bone headed things that you do.

[Superman]

That is not true according to the article that 1959Colts linked.

 

It's absolutely true. He wasn't supposed to snap the ball. Maybe he wasn't aware that he wasn't supposed to snap it, but he wasn't.