Grigson and his interest (obsession?) in finding the "diamond in the rough"

[ProblChld32]

He has no choice but to do so, With the way Cap is looking. you have guys that Luck, Hilton, Fleener, Allen that will command new contracts. you want to be able to save where you can. Not to mention we lost out on a first round pick with the Trent Richardson trade. Believe it or not that set the Franchise back. So looking for the Diamond in the Rough is needed and has to be done. 

[OffensivelyPC]

The question is... is too much time and effort spent finding these diamonds in the rough, and not the exhaustive degree of due diligence required to ensure we hit in the draft in FA?

 

Sure, we can expand our scouting team, but all decision making comes down to Grigson and his core team.

I get that that's the question, but that's really an impossible question to answer without knowing how much time each scout spends on a per prospect basis.  So it's not really a valid question without any meaningful way to answer it. All we know is that those guys work around the clock scouting prospects.  I highly doubt that they would neglect potential impact players to the extent it means we could find a smaller developmental prospect who's ceiling isn't naturally going to be as high as 1st round talents.

[ColtStronger]

I don't have a problem with him looking within the CFL for potential talent.  Actually, I love the idea!  However I do have a HUGE problem if he stays content with them.  The more I hear speculation about Carter, the more I like him, but thinking he will be a big asset is not something to bank on.  They should definitely re sign Nicks merely for competition, mentoring, and an insurance policy.  I do believe Nicks is probably better than Carter (as of right this second), but think he would be surpassed rather quickly.  If not we always have something to fall back on!

 

Same thing with Ben Heenan.  When I first saw this I was extremely happy, but then suddenly realized, it's going to come down to him and Thornton, which leaves me scratching my head.  Grigson hasn't gotten the point!!  Can we really afford to have another experiment?  Or should we just buy talent?  I prefer buying talent!! 

 

WE WILL NOT have a good OL once again if Grigson thinks finding diamonds in the rough is the way to go, to fulfill a major need on the OL.  It seems they get the point when it comes to the DL.  We NEED to draft a monster 350+ guy that WILL come in and do the job preferrably #1 or #2 round pick.  I'm not so convinced Grigson "gets it" when it comes to the OL.  I have NEVER been a critic of his before, but BET if we see the same ol song and dance at OL this year, I will be calling for his job!  Get it right or get out!  D.A. said it best, "We need offensive balance"!  Without a dominating OL we will simply never achieve that.

 

It is time we stop the plug n play, or finding this high prospect to hopefully do a good job.  NOW it's time to "get the job done"!  Don't get me wrong, I love both of the signings, but if that's all we get at G, then I better see a pro bowl RT brought in sometime during the offseason.  Even then Holmes Mewhort and whoever plays G will need to step up in a big way.

[JR Indy]

What does hide behind the bowling ball full of knives comment mean?  I know it is what Pagano said about TR but not sure what you mean by hiding?

what I meant was depending on T-rich or players you can not depend on. It seem like the team got better when they went in another direction as far as the running game. I hope they continue, truth be told there are quite a few of these nice guys they need to let go, the Colts need some real players

[JR Indy]

Right now is precisely the right time to sign guys from Canada.

 

We can't hold the draft now.    That's in 12 weeks.

 

We can't sign NFL free agents now.     That's in 5 weeks.

 

There's a 90 man off-season roster to build.    You're only as good as your weakest players.     So signing CFL players now is the exact right thing to do.

 

It may not be glamorous or sexy or exciting enough for you and many others here,  but this is what happens in February.   Teams are trying to get better.

 

Oh,  and your rant about big time colleges?     Feel free to go through Grigson's three years of drafts.    You'll find that almost every player comes from a Big Boy School.    SEC,  Big-10,  Pac-12,  Big-12,  ACC,  Big East,  you name it.     He drafts from big schools.

 

Welcome to the website....

at this time yeah, take chances, reach on these guys. The guys from Canada and where ever I have never heard of. But early in the draft and early in free agency. WHY not get in the running car? The guys/cars the Colts pass up is having pretty good seasons while the guys they take a chance on that most people hardly know about is getting worked when we play the New England and Pittsburgh, and Dallas. Remember those games. I hope they bring in Mr. Shu but time will tell

[Superman]

Hmm... I think many have misinterpreted the intent behind these comments.

No one is arguing the merits of signing a low-risk, potential medium/high reward player that has not followed the conventional route to the NFL. This makes sense given the salary cap, pre-season roster and practice squads.

Where it may potentially derail things, is when a GM and his scouting teams are devoting too much time on these areas, whilst not performing the same level of due diligence on potential draft picks and well-known free agents, so as to ensure, beyond all reasonable doubt, that they are a fit for the franchise.

Now I don't think any of us can say how much time our scouting teams split their time with these evaluations, it would be interesting to know exactly how these scouting teams are made up and their process, but I have never been able to source such information.

Anyway, I like the fact that Grigson and co. scour all crevices to unearth talent, but it is interesting to hear someone play devil's advocate to entertain how this may be in some way detrimental.

Why would scouting CFL players be less important than scouting collegiate free agents, or even late round picks? Particularly when we're talking about highly regarded CFL players.

Unless there's some reason to think that there's an inordinate amount of time being devoted to scouting non-traditional talent pools, I don't get the concern.

[Superman]

Will the final roster of 53 also be expanded?

I think they should be. Doesn't look like there's any momentum in that direction though.

[masterlock]

Sure, most diamonds-in-the-rough won't become stars, but neither will most draft picks. That's just how it goes with ANY personnel moves in ANY organization, at all levels, simply because people are unpredictable.

 

But that's not an argument against continuing to try to find talent anywhere you can. Grigson should be commended for his resourcefulness, and willingness to keep an open mind. That will come in handy when the big contracts start coming due in a couple years.

[Gavin]

Without finding diamond in the roughs there would have been no:

 

Tony Romo

Jeff Saturday

London Fletcher

Priest Holmes

Adam Vinatieri

Arian Foster

Brian Water

Wes Welker

James Harrison

John Randle

Antonio Gates

Warren Moon

Kurt Warner

 

 

Some of which played in other leagues, Thing is when GM's and scouts look for these players and find them many don't bring them in expecting to be a star but just like something they saw on film or in person that they thought that could lead them to contributing to the team, Not every player is brought in with the expectation to be a star or start....But it sure is great when you land a Kurt Warner or Jerrell Freeman for that matter or Jeff Saturday 

[NewColtsFan]

at this time yeah, take chances, reach on these guys. The guys from Canada and where ever I have never heard of. But early in the draft and early in free agency. WHY not get in the running car? The guys/cars the Colts pass up is having pretty good seasons while the guys they take a chance on that most people hardly know about is getting worked when we play the New England and Pittsburgh, and Dallas. Remember those games. I hope they bring in Mr. Shu but time will tell

 

 

Who is Mr. Shu?

 

Sorry,  but you lost me with the reference......

[Luck_Is_Skilled]

Who is Mr. Shu?

 

Sorry,  but you lost me with the reference......

 

[JR Indy]

Who is Mr. Shu?

 

Sorry,  but you lost me with the reference......

my bad I spot you the letters and you could not unscramble them. Ok I stand to be corrected. His name Ndamkong Suh, current team Detroit Lions, current number 90. He is the definition of a running car. It looks like he is about to break the bank with Oakland, or Jacksonville according to bleacher report. It might have been nice to see Suh in Colts blue

[loudnproudcolt]

As far as Suh, his agent says Detroit is still the favorite to retain him. They are even considering franchising him. Calvin Johnson has said he will do whatever it takes to keep him. He is going to get JJ Watt money, 16M/yr. I would love to have him, but it is tough to give QB money to a DL, although we do need the nasty he brings.

[NewColtsFan]

Without finding diamond in the roughs there would have been no:

 

Tony Romo

Jeff Saturday

London Fletcher

Priest Holmes

Adam Vinatieri

Arian Foster

Brian Water

Wes Welker

James Harrison

John Randle

Antonio Gates

Warren Moon

Kurt Warner

 

 

Some of which played in other leagues, Thing is when GM's and scouts look for these players and find them many don't bring them in expecting to be a star but just like something they saw on film or in person that they thought that could lead them to contributing to the team, Not every player is brought in with the expectation to be a star or start....But it sure is great when you land a Kurt Warner or Jerrell Freeman for that matter or Jeff Saturday 

 

Nicely said.    One of your best posts -- ever!     

[Rally5]

By the way take a peak at the Duron Carter Highlights.  There's a lot to like there...now I understand they don't make lowlight media clips but I'm rather optimistic on this signing.

[cmgww]

My original point was made in other posts....but my concern is depending too much on UDFAs and CFL players. That's what I DON'T want happening. I am fine with turning over every rock looking for unrealized talent. However, I just hope he isn't spending too much time doing this instead of scouting college players. Our last draft wasn't too hot (it's still early, so it could pan out). A good mix of UDFAs, good draft, and impact FA signings is what works the best. Polian's flaw, IMO, was not doing more in free agency. Grigson is almost the opposite. Landry, RJF, Walden, Cherilus, Thomas, etc. I hope it balances out.

[bap1331]

Well, when you keep getting among the last picks in the league every draft for the pas 3 seasons, youre gonna have to look for the diamond in the rough.

[ED29_1659yards]

JMV had one of the local media guys on the other day, and they were discussing the offseason. I think it was Conrad Brunner, but it could have been Mike Chappell. Anyway, the conversation turned to Grigson and Duron Carter. Conrad (now I think it was him after all) said something to the effect of: "Grigson seems to want to be the GM that finds 'the guy' that no one else in the NFL has heard of...and turn him into a star." I think he made a valid point. Grigson started as a scout and still has that blood in him to find the hidden gem. But more often than not it has not worked. Freeman has made an impact, but most of the the others have not....or were cut due to off the field issues.

We have seen it with Adongo, Henoc Muamba, Da'Rick Rogers, McNary and others. Freeman is solid, and Whalen to a lesser extent, but the rest have been kinda duds or the jury is still out.

Sure, every team gets a few UDFAs that turn into impact players. Polian was good at it (Jeff Saturday, Dominic Rhodes, etc). But it seems that unlike Polian, Grigson takes a few too many chances and goes with guys that have some real problems off the field. Maybe it's just me, but the conversation on the radio, and the recent signings of Carter and Heenan (both CFL standouts) got me to thinking about this. Is Grigson too much of a gambler? Or is it still too early to tell....

This may be an old topic, but its my first time seeing this post,on this forum. Your description of Grigson's experiences put this into perspective for me and helps me to understand his mindset somewhat clearer. My fear/concern is that it seems that he has slowly fallen under the "Polian Spell" of drafting Grade A offensive talent, and C grade, CFL defensive talent. there's a reason those guys are playing there, and it aint all because they were overlooked. The espn analyst aren't always right, but if losing to all the top teams in the AFC conference, doesn't turn the light on, then we need another electrician who can fix the breakage/shortages in our wiring setup. Why not have a conversation with, or pay attention to a Dick Labeau, or experienced espn analyst, and try to acquire some nuggets of defensive wisdom from them before the draft. The Colts need to go in a different direction with the offensive line coaching as well. All the Colts have are pass blockers, who can only sustain blocks for a minimal amount of time. Run blocking regardless of strategy, requires strength at the point of attack, which the colts struggle with. Hopefully our offseason patchwork, will bring in some earth movers on both sides of the OL/DL.

[OLD FAN MAN]

JMV had one of the local media guys on the other day, and they were discussing the offseason. I think it was Conrad Brunner, but it could have been Mike Chappell. Anyway, the conversation turned to Grigson and Duron Carter. Conrad (now I think it was him after all) said something to the effect of: "Grigson seems to want to be the GM that finds 'the guy' that no one else in the NFL has heard of...and turn him into a star." I think he made a valid point. Grigson started as a scout and still has that blood in him to find the hidden gem. But more often than not it has not worked. Freeman has made an impact, but most of the the others have not....or were cut due to off the field issues.

We have seen it with Adongo, Henoc Muamba, Da'Rick Rogers, McNary and others. Freeman is solid, and Whalen to a lesser extent, but the rest have been kinda duds or the jury is still out.

Sure, every team gets a few UDFAs that turn into impact players. Polian was good at it (Jeff Saturday, Dominic Rhodes, etc). But it seems that unlike Polian, Grigson takes a few too many chances and goes with guys that have some real problems off the field. Maybe it's just me, but the conversation on the radio, and the recent signings of Carter and Heenan (both CFL standouts) got me to thinking about this. Is Grigson too much of a gambler? Or is it still too early to tell....

I like his no name signings, we get them for cheap and some may be good

[ticat]

Some people need to uderstand the CFL is not a ''c'' league, or something as good as college. It is alot better then college and the difference between the 2 teams is not as far off as the salaries are. The biggest difference is size, because of the field.

[dgambill]

Signing CFL guys isn't finding a diamond in the rough, anymore than signing UDFAs. It's just another talent pool you can use to build your team, without committing big resources.

Adongo and Swoope are interesting cases, but with the offseason roster expansion to 90 and the practice squad expansion to 10, teams are better able to hold on to developmental prospects, again at little cost.

Out of all the ways you can criticize a GM, signing low risk developmental players and players from other leagues isn't one of them. This is a nitpick, and one that has no merit.

I agree. I have absolutely no problem with these guys being on the practice squad or on the early 90 man rosters. I also like how Grigson/Pagano turnover the bottom of our roster fairly consistantly. Like hey...you do your job and work hard we will reward you or if you get complacent...bam out the door. Sends a good message to me imo.

 

There could be some minimal negatives to this like is he spending too much time researching/scouting in the wrong areas. Is he pressuring the coaches to keep some of his projects instead of people more able to contribute. Do the coaches have to spend too much of their time trying to teach some of these raw players. (That last one to me is my concern....that or the coaches just aren't up to snuff in bringing these guys along) I will say though it doesn't hurt bringing in Carter, Freeman and others....you might hit on something but as long as it doesn't stop you from finding more certain players or signing them I'm all for it. If the GM wants to scour the world and work 20hrs a day no problem. Just don't bypass talent that can help this team just because he is a known given commodity rather than looking for those mythical unicorns. I think Grigson has kinda done both. I think he has had a really mixed bag of results. Main thing is he hasn't handicapped the team in any of his signings. The Trent trade has clearly been his worst move and I would say trading for Vonte and moving up to get TY were his best moves. Everything else is somewhere in between. I would love for us to have another good draft like his first one and perhaps sign a couple upgrades as well. Jury is still out but I would say if by year 5 he hasn't surrounded Luck with SB talent...well it would be time to access his qualifications.

[Superman]

I agree. I have absolutely no problem with these guys being on the practice squad or on the early 90 man rosters. I also like how Grigson/Pagano turnover the bottom of our roster fairly consistantly. Like hey...you do your job and work hard we will reward you or if you get complacent...bam out the door. Sends a good message to me imo.

 

There could be some minimal negatives to this like is he spending too much time researching/scouting in the wrong areas. Is he pressuring the coaches to keep some of his projects instead of people more able to contribute. Do the coaches have to spend too much of their time trying to teach some of these raw players. (That last one to me is my concern....that or the coaches just aren't up to snuff in bringing these guys along) I will say though it doesn't hurt bringing in Carter, Freeman and others....you might hit on something but as long as it doesn't stop you from finding more certain players or signing them I'm all for it. If the GM wants to scour the world and work 20hrs a day no problem. Just don't bypass talent that can help this team just because he is a known given commodity rather than looking for those mythical unicorns. I think Grigson has kinda done both. I think he has had a really mixed bag of results. Main thing is he hasn't handicapped the team in any of his signings. The Trent trade has clearly been his worst move and I would say trading for Vonte and moving up to get TY were his best moves. Everything else is somewhere in between. I would love for us to have another good draft like his first one and perhaps sign a couple upgrades as well. Jury is still out but I would say if by year 5 he hasn't surrounded Luck with SB talent...well it would be time to access his qualifications.

 

To me, there's no indication of any of the bolded, so I'm not very convinced of this being an issue at all.

 

As for Grigson, I think this is a make-or-break year for him. I'm in his corner, from a macro perspective, but there's no question that he's made some mistakes that have hurt the team. The micro-criticisms of his free agents are kind of petty, if you ask me, but they aren't necessarily adding to his standing, either.

 

But now, he's well removed from the weights he inherited from the previous regime. He's not handicapped by dead money, he has a full complement of picks, and he's not trying to fill holes all over the roster. He also doesn't have to worry about big salaries for his 2012 draft picks just yet. This is the sweet spot. He has a ton of cap flexibility, good draft standing, and the best young QB in the league. As much as a smaller market in middle America can be a destination, Indy is. There's really no excuse for him not to significantly upgrade this roster prior to the 2015 season. I don't think we have to suddenly be the best team in the NFL, but the goodwill he built up for the quick turnaround has run out. Time to take the next step.

[dgambill]

To me, there's no indication of any of the bolded, so I'm not very convinced of this being an issue at all.

 

As for Grigson, I think this is a make-or-break year for him. I'm in his corner, from a macro perspective, but there's no question that he's made some mistakes that have hurt the team. The micro-criticisms of his free agents are kind of petty, if you ask me, but they aren't necessarily adding to his standing, either.

 

But now, he's well removed from the weights he inherited from the previous regime. He's not handicapped by dead money, he has a full complement of picks, and he's not trying to fill holes all over the roster. He also doesn't have to worry about big salaries for his 2012 draft picks just yet. This is the sweet spot. He has a ton of cap flexibility, good draft standing, and the best young QB in the league. As much as a smaller market in middle America can be a destination, Indy is. There's really no excuse for him not to significantly upgrade this roster prior to the 2015 season. I don't think we have to suddenly be the best team in the NFL, but the goodwill he built up for the quick turnaround has run out. Time to take the next step.

I agree 1000%. The next two years imo will be make or break for both he and Pagano. This team should be playing in championship games (afc/sb) consistantly from here on out minus some catastrophies. I think he feels a lot of pressure...and rightfuly so for all the reasons you stated.

 

There is no proof like you said but we have limited scouts. We've all seen the series on building the Giants team and how little time the scouts have to go all over and get limited view of kids. There is only so many resources and so far it seems we are doing ok so I support your claim....but eventually you can only cover so much territory. I will say though I like using the CFL as a pipeline. The more opportunities we give these guys the easier it should become to build ties to these organizations and to send a message to any stars in the league that we are a place desirable to get a shot at the big time. Kinda building a pipeline that hasn't been exploited. I like it...but like I said as long as its to bring in camp guys and give them a shot thats fine...if we are bringing them in and then marking off a proven FA talent because we expect something from these guys well then I would have a problem. (not that this even seems close to being the case)

 

Honestly its the signing of FAs from the NFL that have yet to prove themselves to more than modest contracts that I worry about. I know we've touched on this and agree we had to build a team so it made sense but if he continues to bypass on named talent just because they are well known commodities for these "hungry" guys who may or may not become anything is something I would have issues with. Nothing wrong you have to have depth and you can't fill a roster full of big contracts but we are at the stage where to get better he needs to hit on some of those guys or go out and sign some proven talent if we are to get over the top. To me if he is still signing the RJF's and Waldens and Thomas's down the road hoping to hit on a diamond with them then thats where I would say he may have some issues. We will see. I don't think he is afraid of taking big swings. I would say Nicks and Cherilus and Trent were big names on the market or through trades he has gone after so he isn't opposed to going after a big name if he feels it will fit us. I like the guy...he seems to have a formula or game plan. He isn't all over the place. I'm willing to trust him the next couple years to keep us at the top.

[Superman]

There is no proof like you said but we have limited scouts. We've all seen the series on building the Giants team and how little time the scouts have to go all over and get limited view of kids. There is only so many resources and so far it seems we are doing ok so I support your claim....but eventually you can only cover so much territory. I will say though I like using the CFL as a pipeline. The more opportunities we give these guys the easier it should become to build ties to these organizations and to send a message to any stars in the league that we are a place desirable to get a shot at the big time. Kinda building a pipeline that hasn't been exploited. I like it...but like I said as long as its to bring in camp guys and give them a shot thats fine...if we are bringing them in and then marking off a proven FA talent because we expect something from these guys well then I would have a problem. (not that this even seems close to being the case)

 

 

We're on the same page regarding Grigson.

 

As for the scouting, I don't have those same concerns. The CFL season is mostly during summer. It starts in June, which is after the NFL draft, after free agency, when there's almost nothing happening in the NFL. There's no college ball being played, either, aside from the occasional practice here and there, and those aren't all that valuable from a scouting standpoint. There's probably two months where the CFL is all that's going on. 

 

And there's only 9 teams. It's not that hard to scout 9 teams. Especially if you're just picking out a few guys from each team that are worth your attention.

 

I'd even argue that the ratio of NFL-caliber talent to overall players in the CFL isn't that far off from college. There are 128 D1 teams, with probably 40 players eligible to come out in any given year per team. That's over 5,000 players that are draft eligible (juniors, seniors, red-shirt seniors). Only 256 will be drafted. The CFL is about 400 players altogether, with maybe 10% of them even being worthy of a second look. Some of them -- like Duron Carter or Jerrell Freeman -- are already on the radar for one reason or another. If you have 5-10 guys in mind by the time you get to training camp, then it's nothing to keep an eye on those guys for the rest of the season.

 

Also, the Colts pay two(?) independent scouting services for pre-draft scouting. 

 

I just don't think it's a concern, really. 

[esmort]

Some people need to uderstand the CFL is not a ''c'' league, or something as good as college. It is alot better then college and the difference between the 2 teams is not as far off as the salaries are. The biggest difference is size, because of the field.

 

CFL is closer to college level than NFL level

[ticat]

CFL is closer to college level than NFL level

Not even close.

[esmort]

Not even close.

 

The average CFL player abilities is on par with a good college player, take the 2 players the colts just signed for example if they were in the draft where do you think they would be drafted. Just taking a wild guess here ...  Carter maybe 2nd rnd and Heenan maybe 3rd (potentially both go much lower); and those are a couple of the best players the CFL has to offer.

 

Lets say the 3 leagues were to play each other .... The best team in the CFL vs. best college team ... or ... best team in CFL vs. best NFL team (Patriots/Seahaks this year) .... which game would be more competitive?  I do not even believe the best CFL team would beat the All SEC, All Big 10, or All PAC 12 teams.

 

I have nothing against the CFL and like watching the games, but the talent level across the board in the CFL is not nearly as good as you believe. 

[Superman]

The average CFL player abilities is on par with a good college player, take the 2 players the colts just signed for example if they were in the draft where do you think they would be drafted. Just taking a wild guess here ...  Carter maybe 2nd rnd and Heenan maybe 3rd (potentially both go much lower); and those are a couple of the best players the CFL has to offer.

 

Lets say the 3 leagues were to play each other .... The best team in the CFL vs. best college team ... or ... best team in CFL vs. best NFL team (Patriots/Seahaks this year) .... which game would be more competitive?  I do not even believe the best CFL team would beat the All SEC, All Big 10, or All PAC 12 teams.

 

I have nothing against the CFL and like watching the games, but the talent level across the board in the CFL is not nearly as good as you believe. 

 

Thing is, there are over 10,000 players in D1 college football. The vast majority of them aren't coming anywhere near the NFL. The majority of them probably won't ever be good enough for the CFL. It's only the very best of the best of college football players that are good enough to play in the NFL, and most of them are scrubs in the first couple of years. CFL players are ALL pros, don't have to carry 16 units/semester and stay academically eligible, aren't playing football for fun but as a career, etc.

 

It's not that the CFL is teeming with NFL caliber talent, but this idea that the CFL can't pump out a couple NFL prospects every year is just misguided. Doesn't mean they'll be stars, but putting them on par with mid to late round draft prospects is appropriate.

[esmort]

Thing is, there are over 10,000 players in D1 college football. The vast majority of them aren't coming anywhere near the NFL. The majority of them probably won't ever be good enough for the CFL. It's only the very best of the best of college football players that are good enough to play in the NFL, and most of them are scrubs in the first couple of years. CFL players are ALL pros, don't have to carry 16 units/semester and stay academically eligible, aren't playing football for fun but as a career, etc.

 

It's not that the CFL is teeming with NFL caliber talent, but this idea that the CFL can't pump out a couple NFL prospects every year is just misguided. Doesn't mean they'll be stars, but putting them on par with mid to late round draft prospects is appropriate.

 

I agree that the CFL isn't only as good as your average college team, but do you really think that a CFL team would be that much better than elite programs in the the power conferences ... not to mention the all conference teams of that conference?  

 

A more competitive game a CFL team vs. top college team ... or ... CFL team vs. NFL team?

 

I agree that their is NFL talent to be had in the CFL and we should definitely look there, but disagree with the poster that I  responded to .... that the CFL was as close to the NFL level as he seemed to be insinuating.

 

I also think many more college players than currently do have the talent to play in the CFL if they had chosen to pursue that, but the CFL doesn't pay enough for many who probably could play there to choose that route. 

[Superman]

I agree that the CFL isn't only as good as your average college team, but do you really think that a CFL team would be that much better than elite programs in the the power conferences ... not to mention the all conference teams of that conference?  

 

A more competitive game a CFL team vs. top college team ... or ... CFL team vs. NFL team?

 

I agree that their is NFL talent to be had in the CFL and we should definitely look there, but disagree with the poster that I  responded to .... that the CFL was as close to the NFL level as he seemed to be insinuating.

 

I also think many more college players than currently do have the talent to play in the CFL if they had chosen to pursue that, but the CFL doesn't pay enough for many who probably could play there to choose that route. 

 

I don't really know if it's possible to quantify that, to be honest. I don't watch a lot of CFL games; I caught pieces of a few last year. I think the QBing is probably better than in college, in general, but they don't have big, strong athletic guys like Cardale Jones, either. Take Calgary vs. Ohio State, and I have no idea what might happen. I wouldn't argue with you if you said Calgary wouldn't stand a chance.

 

But if you look at Calgary's roster, you'll see like 20 guys from Power 5 schools. Now grown men, now playing professionally. And not just West Virginia and Colorado, but guys from Tennessee, Alabama, UCLA, etc. 

 

Thing is, if you can hang on an NFL practice squad for a season, you'll make $40K more than you will on a CFL active roster. If you can make on an NFL active roster for two regular season weeks, you're pretty much matching CFL money for the year. So you'll see more guys sign to the 90 man roster out of college as a UDFA rather than go to the CFL. So it's mostly guys getting steered toward chasing the dream by their agents for 10 times the money, whereas they'd probably be better off trying the CFL for a year or two.

 

If the NFL could partner with the CFL to build up their operation a bit, and increase the pay, they'd be able to establish a better farm system than the NCAA, without all the ridiculous limitations. I think they will, eventually.

[Defjamz26]

Only thing I think is a major problem is the fans, and sometimes Grigson to a lesser extent put too much stock in these players and have bigger expectations of them than they should. Henoc Muamba is one example. Yes he had other teams trying to get him, but people here were singing his praises as if he was a future starting ILB of our D. From the little we've seen, it's likely he'll be a good rotational guy and depth, nothing more.

 

An example of when Grigson puts too much stock in those guys are last off-season. When they asked him why he didn't address safety (this was post 2014 draft) one of the things he said was that "I liked what we have in-house" which at the time was Landry and Delano Howell. Sure there was still hope for Landry, but Howell was an UDFA who was just barely "okay" in 2013. Really confused me.

 

That's my only issue with Grigson. It's okay to try and find that diamond in the rough, but he just shouldn't put so much stock in them when they're unproven or under-performing. There's talent everywhere, but let's not forget that people go undrafted and end up in the CFL for a reason. Not every guy is Warren Moon or Arian Foster. As fans I think we should do the same. Hope for the best, but don't expect greatness from every signing so if a guy washes out (which is likely) it's not such a shocker and disappointment.

[ticat]

Not even close, a CFL team would destroy any college team out there. 90% of college players will never play in the NFL or the CFL. A college player does not sign with a CFL team and then start, it could take 2-3 yrs before that happens ,but there are exceptions, like the NFL. All you have to do is listen to interviews with players when they come to the league to hear the difference when going pro. And how many super college stars ,hiemans trophy winners that failed in the CFL , many, just like many NFL'ers have failed to break into this league. 2 different games.

[Superman]

Not even close, a CFL team would destroy any college team out there. 90% of college players will never play in the NFL or the CFL. A college player does not sign with a CFL team and then start, it could take 2-3 yrs before that happens ,but there are exceptions, like the NFL. All you have to do is listen to interviews with players when they come to the league to hear the difference when going pro. And how many super college stars ,hiemans trophy winners that failed in the CFL , many, just like many NFL'ers have failed to break into this league. 2 different games.

 

I don't know that I agree with you, but an example of what you're talking about is Troy Smith. Heisman winner, but was pretty bad in the CFL. That's partly why I said I think the QBing in the CFL is better than in college. You actually have to throw the ball in the CFL, and you have to be accurate and have at least decent arm strength. Half of the QBs in D1 football have terrible arms, and are running or even option QBs. Not in the CFL. Tebow wouldn't make it in the CFL, for instance.

[esmort]

Not even close, a CFL team would destroy any college team out there. 90% of college players will never play in the NFL or the CFL. A college player does not sign with a CFL team and then start, it could take 2-3 yrs before that happens ,but there are exceptions, like the NFL. All you have to do is listen to interviews with players when they come to the league to hear the difference when going pro. And how many super college stars ,hiemans trophy winners that failed in the CFL , many, just like many NFL'ers have failed to break into this league. 2 different games.

 

Too bad there is no way to ever see this, because I would take that bet, and if it was an all conference team I would even give you odds.  IMO there are a lot more college players than you think that could play in the CFL, but choose not to pursue it because it doesn't pay enough; and the NFL is not pulling players out of the CFL in high enough numbers for most players to consider it a legitimate alternate path to the NFL. I think that could change though if like Superman suggested the NFL & CFL worked to make the CFL more of a legitimate farm system for the NFL; but as of now that is not the case. 

[ticat]

Too bad there is no way to ever see this, because I would take that bet, and if it was an all conference team I would even give you odds.  IMO there are a lot more college players than you think that could play in the CFL, but choose not to pursue it because it doesn't pay enough; and the NFL is not pulling players out of the CFL in high enough numbers for most players to consider it a legitimate alternate path to the NFL. I think that could change though if like Superman suggested the NFL & CFL worked to make the CFL more of a legitimate farm system for the NFL; but as of now that is not the case.

We are a totally different league and we don't want anything to do with feeding NFL teams, it is our league. We don't mind seeing CFLers make the big league, but that is it. Size is the big difference and the NFL is looking more and more at the CFL because it is getting a lot better. To many good athletic footballs players out there, for all to fit into the NFL. It seems like people think once the NFL is done picking players ,there is no good ones left. We even have ^players that turn down a NFL tryout, because they are happy where they are and dont want to take a chance of getting cut and being nowhere. Like Brandon banks of the ticats ,(former redskin) had a few teams wanting him to try out this yr and he said no. The NFL is #1, CFL is #2. A former colt just resigned with the ticats,Justin Hickman ,he spent a couple yrs with your team. And now we get a chance to see if john skelton can play the Canadian game, just read the als are going to give him a chance to compete for a job.

[Superman]

We are a totally different league and we don't want anything to do with feeding NFL teams, it is our league. We don't mind seeing CFLers make the big league, but that is it. Size is the big difference and the NFL is looking more and more at the CFL because it is getting a lot better. To many good athletic footballs players out there, for all to fit into the NFL. It seems like people think once the NFL is done picking players ,there is no good ones left. We even have ^players that turn down a NFL tryout, because they are happy where they are and dont want to take a chance of getting cut and being nowhere. Like Brandon banks of the ticats ,(former redskin) had a few teams wanting him to try out this yr and he said no. The NFL is #1, CFL is #2. A former colt just resigned with the ticats,Justin Hickman ,he spent a couple yrs with your team. And now we get a chance to see if john skelton can play the Canadian game, just read the als are going to give him a chance to compete for a job.

 

I think that's a little close-minded. The CFL can't afford to pay their players true pro-league compensation. If they partnered with the league, they could increase their pay, snag more young, talented players, and put a better product on the field. They'd attract more college football fans and more NFL fans, and their only competition for eyeballs would be the long, dull MLB season.

[John Dee]

JMV just states facts...     And out of all the media in INDy he is the most "connected" ...  he knows someone in the Colt organization that is way up there.    He breaks big Colt news before ANY one including national media..   He hears "whispers" weeks before the hammer drops.    

 

The whole "diamond" in the rough thing...   what else is a team supposed to do?   Grigs major issue so far is missing on early picks.   Not his FA signings.       EVERY team tries to find the "big splash" FA...     EVERY TEAM...     that is working hard.

 

JMV and DD for that matter are just too hard to listen too because they are so full of themselves.      But when they stick to sports the are both pretty good.

Finding a diamond in the rough is a good thing.    Period.

 

You're finding players that will outperform their first contract, and maybe even their second contract.

 

That's a good thing.    Period.

 

Too much of a gambler?     What does that mean.    Signing a CFL players costs the Colts (or any NFL team) minimal money.   It's like getting extra free agent players after the draft.  

 

I don't know who JMV is,  but he seems to be trying to turn a positive into a negative.    That's his problem.    Most stuff on AM-Sports Talk radio is nonsense said by people who have no shortage of opinions,  but most have ill-informed opinions.

 

There's no downside risk and only upside risk to signings like Carter and the new OL,  Heenon (sp?)

 

Not sure what else to say,  other than the radio guy doesn't know what he's talking about.    Sorry.

[ticat]

I think that's a little close-minded. The CFL can't afford to pay their players true pro-league compensation. If they partnered with the league, they could increase their pay, snag more young, talented players, and put a better product on the field. They'd attract more college football fans and more NFL fans, and their only competition for eyeballs would be the long, dull MLB season.

We are our own league in our country, we do not want to be a feeder leagues to the NFL.We would only lose control of the league.