Why do our DL tend to have so few tackles per game?

[rock8591]

IMO it's a sign that the LBs and Secondary is being overburdened. I remember the days when Bob Sanders, Melvin Bulliet, Antoine Bethea all had 100+ tackles a year, which is insanely high for DBs. It's been like that ever since our Cover-2 and now in our 3-4 days.

 

e.g. people say that RJF had a comeback season, but he has only had 25 tackles and 3 sacks thusfar. The only DL that would start for opposing teams is Art Jones; in only 8 games this year and far fewer snaps, he's had similar stats - 22 tackles and 2 sacks.

 

My ideal offseason: release Walden, RJF, Landry...Redding likely retires. Make a push for a difference maker on the DL, ala Muhammed Wilkerson type. Saints are in salary cap hell with underwhelming seasons from both Cameron Jordan and Akiem Hicks; maybe they'll let one of them go or trade one of them to us. Draft OL, LB, and Safety strictly in the draft. That way, our team can at least have both Hakeem Nicks and Akiem Hicks.

[bestQBever]

I agree. We have no difference makers on our line. It will help when Rob Mathis comes back next year but who know how effective we'll be. Art Jones is a keeper but we need another anchor on our line. Cameron Jordan would be a dream come true.

[Moncrief]

In a 3-4 your LBs are supposed to have the tackle numbers. Your DL are supposed to occupy the blockers. I don't see it as a big deal.

[rock8591]

I wouldn't mind an offseason like the following IMO.

 

sign - James Carpenter, Terrance Knighton

release - Landry, Walden, RJF

 

draft - LB, Safety, OL in the first 3 rounds.

 

Keeps our salary cap in good shape, and also addresses several needs.

[Superman]

Tackles is among the worst of ways to grade the play of any defender, especially a lineman.

[a06cc]

They can't get off of blocks.

[csmopar]

Walden has actually been better this year by far than last year. I'd like to see him have 1 more year and see what he does if we can pick up a couple pieces yet. We really lack a mean NT. Chapman is okay but seems to give up on some plays

[rock8591]

Tackles is among the worst of ways to grade the play of any defender, especially a lineman.

 

But a high number of tackles for a DL is a good number...means he's stopping lots of plays at the Line of Scrimmage, or at least in the vincinity...instead of yards up the field.

[cmgww]

In a 3-4 D, the linemen shouldn't have high tackle numbers. They are supposed to occupy linemen to let the LBs (and stand up ends depending on how you define them) make the plays. Really, for the most part, the line has played pretty solid against the run in most games. Where they start to get gashed (Pittsburgh, Dallas) has been later in games where they have been worn down. Well, New England was a different story....we got out coached in that game. They played essentially 8 linemen most of the game bc we were sooo concerned with Gronk (who didn't have a big day compared to most games). They kept him back to block and ran all over us. That's on the coaches, not the D line. I think a few upgrades for depth and we are ok. Safety is still our biggest issue on D.

[cmgww]

But a high number of tackles for a DL is a good number...means he's stopping lots of plays at the Line of Scrimmage, or at least in the vincinity...instead of yards up the field.

It's good if a DT does happen to have high tackle numbers, but it isn't the end of the world if they don't...by design of this defense

[OLD FAN MAN]

In a 3-4 your LBs are supposed to have the tackle numbers. Your DL are supposed to occupy the blockers. I don't see it as a big deal.

tell that to jj watt, then next time we play them he wont be in lucks face. I read the same article that said what you are saying, but I have seen a lot 3-4 lines get a lot of push into the backfield and make tackles for losses, imo if a lineman can make the tackle come off the block and make the tackle for a loss, don't wait for the lb, he may not get there

[John Dee]

yes...    BUT..   our ILB'ers are making tackles 5 yards off the ball not at the LOS. 

 

MLB is an issue...   but it is secondary to the OL and OLB...  

In a 3-4 your LBs are supposed to have the tackle numbers. Your DL are supposed to occupy the blockers. I don't see it as a big deal.

[John Dee]

Esp  ... a LB'r.. .  

 

truth...

 

Tackles is among the worst of ways to grade the play of any defender, especially a lineman.

[Jason_]

So this is what it's like in the twilight zone

[NewColtsFan]

But a high number of tackles for a DL is a good number...means he's stopping lots of plays at the Line of Scrimmage, or at least in the vincinity...instead of yards up the field.

 

 

In a 3-4,  the D-lineman's primary job is to occupy o-lineman and free-up the LBers to make the tackles.

 

So, our LBers have lots of tackles is by design.      If our d-lineman can make the tackle -- then great.   But that's not their primary function.

[Superman]

tell that to jj watt, then next time we play them he wont be in lucks face. I read the same article that said what you are saying, but I have seen a lot 3-4 lines get a lot of push into the backfield and make tackles for losses, imo if a lineman can make the tackle come off the block and make the tackle for a loss, don't wait for the lb, he may not get there

 

If we're using JJ Watt as the measuring stick, then we need to start asking where the defensive touchdowns and red zone receiving TDs are, not to mention why our linemen aren't racking up double digit sacks each season.

[Jason_]

tell that to jj watt, then next time we play them he wont be in lucks face. I read the same article that said what you are saying, but I have seen a lot 3-4 lines get a lot of push into the backfield and make tackles for losses, imo if a lineman can make the tackle come off the block and make the tackle for a loss, don't wait for the lb, he may not get there

 

 

Couple things...JJ Watt is one of the best defensive players, possibly ever, so if you expect all DLinemen to play like he does then you're setting yourself up for disappointment.  Second, he plays in a different style of 3-4..at least he did under Wade Phillips.  He is more of a gap penetrator, which is why he worked so well in Wade's 1-gap 3-4.  the Colts run a 2-gap/hybrid 3-4...not the same thing.  

 

also, NFL.com lists Watt at 6'5" 289 lbs.  The Colts' leanest DLinemen is RJF at 6'3" 297 lbs.  Most of our DL are over 310.  That alone should tell you that Watt is a very different style of player than the guys the Colts have on the DL.  In our base defense, Watt would more likely be an OLB, not a DE.  So comparing Watt to our Defensive linemen is entirely irrelevant.

[Gavin]

Colts D Line assignments vary on down and distance and situation, Sometimes we are a 1 gap team, sometimes we are a 2 gap team. There first job on 1st down and 2nd down is stop the run as is our Linebackers BUT on 3rd down and some other situations where the pass is evident then guys like Redding, RJF, Kerr are asked to go after the QB. It varies....We are however not ALL of 1 thing but the first job is to stop the run when they think its coming

[rock8591]

Now that I think of it...on the plus side, there are lots of players in the rotation.

 

Redding - 37 tackles

Jones - 22 tackles

RJF - 25 tackles

Kerr - 16 tackles

Chapman - 19 tackles

Hughes - 10 tackles

 

Divided amongst 3 starters, that's roughly 43 tackles per starter, which is not a bad number for a 3-4.

[oldunclemark]

In a 3-4 your LBs are supposed to have the tackle numbers. Your DL are supposed to occupy the blockers. I don't see it as a big deal.

Listen to AC

[DougDew]

As others have said, the 34 requires more tackles to be made by the LBs rather than the 3 down lineman.

I seriously hope that the days of relying upon players like McNary, Muamba, etc... to develop into consistently good players is over.

[OffensivelyPC]

tell that to jj watt, then next time we play them he wont be in lucks face. I read the same article that said what you are saying, but I have seen a lot 3-4 lines get a lot of push into the backfield and make tackles for losses, imo if a lineman can make the tackle come off the block and make the tackle for a loss, don't wait for the lb, he may not get there

lol. Pretty much no one can meet the expectations of Watt as consistently as he does. So if you are gonna act like finding a JJ Watt is so easy, find one for the Colts first before you make such an outrageous point. JJ is the goal, not the norm.

[Gavin]

As others have said, the 34 requires more tackles to be made by the LBs rather than the 3 down lineman.

I seriously hope that the days of relying upon players like McNary, Muamba, etc... to develop into consistently good players is over.

Why would hoping undrafted players turn into good players be over? We will have some undrafted players on our roster every year most likely, Finding and developing solid undrafted players is something all teams will try to do.....some work out...most wont for various reasons....But if you can find just 1 that works out well every year out of all the ones you bring in then that's one less spot you have to worry about

[GOCOLTS_ROLLTIDE]

I was watching our line that last 2 weeks. ... They actually seem to help open up the wholes for the running back

[DougDew]

Why would hoping undrafted players turn into good players be over? We will have some undrafted players on our roster every year most likely, Finding and developing solid undrafted players is something all teams will try to do.....some work out...most wont for various reasons....But if you can find just 1 that works out well every year out of all the ones you bring in then that's one less spot you have to worry about

I don't disagree with your thinking here...but I think McNary and Muamba were given roster spots as a means to see how they develop, hoping that they turn into something more than special teams players. The Colts ILBs have not been anything more than journeyman type of players going back years, including Brackett and Angerer (yes I know it was a different defense then), and the Colts have gotten gashed in the run game going back years too.

I just think that it is time to invest either high draft picks or FA money into ILBs that we know can play, instead of investing low and hoping to hit a home run.

[Gavin]

I don't disagree with your thinking here...but I think McNary and Muamba were given roster spots as a means to see how they develop, hoping that they turn into something more than special teams players. The Colts ILBs have not been anything more than journeyman type of players going back years, including Brackett and Angerer (yes I know it was a different defense then), and the Colts have gotten gashed in the run game going back years too.

I just think that it is time to invest either high draft picks or FA money into ILBs that we know can play, instead of investing low and hoping to hit a home run.

Freemans not a journeyman, He has been dealing with injuries all year so his production has severely dropped. when we have struggled against the run (Pittsburgh, NE) its been because of our D linemen (RJF and Redding specifically) have abandon there run fits and charged up field,

[DougDew]

Freemans not a journeyman, He has been dealing with injuries all year so his production has severely dropped. when we have struggled against the run (Pittsburgh, NE) its been because of our D linemen (RJF and Redding specifically) have abandon there run fits and charged up field,

That's fine.  He still needs to be the second best ILB on the team, not the best, which he is now. 

[Superman]

lol. Pretty much no one can meet the expectations of Watt as consistently as he does. So if you are gonna act like finding a JJ Watt is so easy, find one for the Colts first before you make such an outrageous point. JJ is the goal, not the norm.

 

Not even a realistic goal. He's a once in a generation player. There hasn't been a defensive player period -- lineman, linebacker, corner, safety -- who has had the consistent impact and production of JJ Watt since Lawrence Taylor.

 

That includes Warren Sapp, Michael Strahan, Ed Reed, Charles Woodson, Ray Lewis, Brian Urlacher, Deion Sanders, Darrelle Revis, Patrick Willis, Bruce Smith, Ronnie Lott, Rod Woodson, Reggie White, and anyone else. Watt is only in his fourth year, so I'm not saying he's greater than those guys or will have a better career than them (you can argue that some of those guys, like Bruce Smith, for instance, had a better career than LT), but the way he's playing right now, he's setting himself apart from everyone else.

[Gavin]

Not even a realistic goal. He's a once in a generation player. There hasn't been a defensive player period -- lineman, linebacker, corner, safety -- who has had the consistent impact and production of JJ Watt since Lawrence Taylor.

 

That includes Warren Sapp, Michael Strahan, Ed Reed, Charles Woodson, Ray Lewis, Brian Urlacher, Deion Sanders, Darrelle Revis, Patrick Willis, Bruce Smith, Ronnie Lott, Rod Woodson, Reggie White, and anyone else. Watt is only in his fourth year, so I'm not saying he's greater than those guys or will have a better career than them (you can argue that some of those guys, like Bruce Smith, for instance, had a better career than LT), but the way he's playing right now, he's setting himself apart from everyone else.

Well....there was that Reggie White guy.......12 years of double digit sacks including 9 years in a row and 10 out of his first 12 years.....as a matter of fact he only had 3 years where he had single digit sacks and 1 of those was his last season.....Watt for my money is the best defensive player in the game today but even White had 16 more sacks in his first 4 years then Watt has had

[Superman]

Well....there was that Reggie White guy.......12 years of double digit sacks including 9 years in a row and 10 out of his first 12 years.....as a matter of fact he only had 3 years where he had single digit sacks and 1 of those was his last season.....Watt for my money is the best defensive player in the game today but even White had 16 more sacks in his first 4 years then Watt has had

 

I think LT was a notch above, especially in terms of overall impact. 

[OffensivelyPC]

Not even a realistic goal. He's a once in a generation player. There hasn't been a defensive player period -- lineman, linebacker, corner, safety -- who has had the consistent impact and production of JJ Watt since Lawrence Taylor.

 

That includes Warren Sapp, Michael Strahan, Ed Reed, Charles Woodson, Ray Lewis, Brian Urlacher, Deion Sanders, Darrelle Revis, Patrick Willis, Bruce Smith, Ronnie Lott, Rod Woodson, Reggie White, and anyone else. Watt is only in his fourth year, so I'm not saying he's greater than those guys or will have a better career than them (you can argue that some of those guys, like Bruce Smith, for instance, had a better career than LT), but the way he's playing right now, he's setting himself apart from everyone else.

Agree.  It's one thing ask a guy to aspire to a great player such as all the guys you list, including active players like JJ Watt.  But to make a comparison to that type of player as if it were the norm is just ridiculous.  JJ Watt dominates games... all the time.  Bjorn, for instance, should aspire to be Watt, but  he's not a guy you should ever expect JJ Watt production on a regular basis.  That's just stupid.  Bjorn shows that consistency of domination and maybe we can have such a conversation.  But until then, the conversation should be checked by realistic expectations.

[Surge89]

A strong NT and play making ILB will fix almost 70% of the defenses problems... problem is both of those are really hard to come by and we had no first this past year in which a bunch of star middle LBERS came into the league... as always we have the worst Luck for our young GM to make a mistake in a year where we could have taken a huge step forward... oh well.

Apologies still trying to get over it... lol

[Gavin]

I thought Werner had a decent 2nd year, I was personally hoping he could reach 6 sacks in his second year(Though he don't have the elite acceleration off the snap I know), He did get some pressures however and he improved significantly in the run game....Overall certainly an improvement was made from year 1 to year 2.

[Jason_]

A strong NT and play making ILB will fix almost 70% of the defenses problems... problem is both of those are really hard to come by and we had no first this past year in which a bunch of star middle LBERS came into the league... as always we have the worst Luck for our young GM to make a mistake in a year where we could have taken a huge step forward... oh well.

Apologies still trying to get over it... lol

 

we already have an incredibly strong NT.  I do agree about a playmaking ILB though

[Surge89]

we already have an incredibly strong NT.  I do agree about a playmaking ILB though

 

Apologies, not what I meant by strong, I meant as in a strong player one that can play more than one down in a series and make more impact plays and consistently demand attention from the opposing oline.

[Jason_]

Apologies, not what I meant by strong, I meant as in a strong player one that can play more than one down in a series and make more impact plays and consistently demand attention from the opposing oline.

 

He can play more than one down per series.  They just pull him out on any kind of passing down because we have better interior pass rushers.  He also does consistently demand attention from the opposing OL, usually in the form of double teams which is why he doesn't make a ton of impact plays, but then again most NTs don't make a ton of impact plays.  I'm perfectly happy with what we've gotten from Chapman so far.

[Surge89]

He can play more than one down per series.  They just pull him out on any kind of passing down because we have better interior pass rushers.  He also does consistently demand attention from the opposing OL, usually in the form of double teams which is why he doesn't make a ton of impact plays, but then again most NTs don't make a ton of impact plays.  I'm perfectly happy with what we've gotten from Chapman so far.

 

I agree with you.  I'm happy with what we have gotten from Chapman considering the situation he came to us in.  My issue is that he gets winded very easily.  Yes he may play more than one down in a series but its quite obvious that his stamina isn't one of his strong suits.  My whole point of the post thought was not to rag on Chapman but the need for a player to make Chapman a rotate player for our true starter.  Someone of impact in which we don't need to rotate to a better interior rusher and able to handle the upper tier of QBs who run a ton of no huddle with no substitutions.  But alas I also pointed out that getting a player like that his hard and rare, but if that piece was attained the defense as a whole would perform remarkably better especially with a play making LBer. Maybe a player comparison would be more sufficient... say Casey Hampton like.

[Gavin]

I agree with you.  I'm happy with what we have gotten from Chapman considering the situation he came to us in.  My issue is that he gets winded very easily.  Yes he may play more than one down in a series but its quite obvious that his stamina isn't one of his strong suits.  My whole point of the post thought was not to rag on Chapman but the need for a player to make Chapman a rotate player for our true starter.  Someone of impact in which we don't need to rotate to a better interior rusher and able to handle the upper tier of QBs who run a ton of no huddle with no substitutions.  But alas I also pointed out that getting a player like that his hard and rare, but if that piece was attained the defense as a whole would perform remarkably better especially with a play making LBer. Maybe a player comparison would be more sufficient... say Casey Hampton like.

I was kinda sitting here thinking Gilbert Brown, Same size, same build. I like Carl Davis in the draft out of Iowa...He isn't 320+ but size in a NT alone means nothing if the strength is not there....Davis is 315lbs 6'5", strong, can shed blocks well

[Surge89]

I was kinda sitting here thinking Gilbert Brown, Same size, same build. I like Carl Davis in the draft out of Iowa...He isn't 320+ but size in a NT alone means nothing if the strength is not there....Davis is 315lbs 6'5", strong, can shed blocks well

 

Don't know much about Gilbert Brown, but I do like Carl Davis :-)

[Gavin]

Don't know much about Gilbert Brown, but I do like Carl Davis :-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert_Brown

 

 

Gilbert is 2 inches taller but same type of player....I think Chapman could stand to lose 15-20lbs to help his stamina...Just my opinion, But he is a fine rotational NT