Luck as a running threat

[Valpo2004]

He seems more hesitant to run this year.  It may be a product of knowing he has more time in the pocket though.

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

The Colts did'nt want a Running QB thats why RG3 is a Redskin who's desire to run has kept him on the side line & most likely cut his career short  , Luck is durable yes & he runs as good as Cam Newton but he has taken alot of abuse & ran for his life alot the last couple of years , We want him to run if necessary but thats it .

[ztboiler]

IMO , there's a very fine line when you talk about Luck running more. If you're talking about a goal line play or a critical 3rd down play , I'm OK with that. If you're talking about utilizing his running ability more in our basic offense , I disagree with that.

I agree.  However, this isn't about injury risk to me.  It's about offensive rhythm.  QB's like Rogers and Luck who maximize their skill players as threats all over the field, while forcing defenses to account for a QB scramble on occasion are the most dangerous now and in the future.  There are plenty of ways to design safe QB's runs, but they still come with an opportunity cost - idling your skill players.  Luck can, and probably will, take off and run more than he has so far this year - but his first job is the same as a PG in basketball, and that is to get everyone else involved as a threat and into the rhythm of the game.  He has balanced this dynamic extremely well for a young QB of considerable athleticism.

[ricker182]

Run the ball with Andrew on an as needed basis.

If he has no open receivers and space in the middle, take off. 5 yards is better than no yards.

If we're down late shake things up with a read option or bootleg.

[Chase]

There are times I wish Luck would run when he clearly has an open path to gain significant yardage, but I do not want to see him become like Newton, RGIII, or Kapernick.

[BOTT]

Read option. One time. That's all I want.

Once or twice a game would be great. Hell, if Nick Foles and Kirk Cousins can do it a couple times and pick up yardage anyone can. Merciless was crashing down so hard in that Texas game, Luck could have ran for a first down rather easily.

[zibby43]

I agree.  However, this isn't about injury risk to me.  It's about offensive rhythm.  QB's like Rogers and Luck who maximize their skill players as threats all over the field, while forcing defenses to account for a QB scramble on occasion are the most dangerous now and in the future.  There are plenty of ways to design safe QB's runs, but they still come with an opportunity cost - idling your skill players.  Luck can, and probably will, take off and run more than he has so far this year - but his first job is the same as a PG in basketball, and that is to get everyone else involved as a threat and into the rhythm of the game.  He has balanced this dynamic extremely well for a young QB of considerable athleticism.

 

Completely agree.  This is exactly the point I was trying to make.  I never said I wanted Luck to become a run-first QB or any nonsense like that. 

 

But, unfortunately, half of the people that responded to my OP either didn't read it or posted irrelevant statistical dribble that smacked of complacency. 

[zibby43]

Once or twice a game would be great. Hell, if Nick Foles and Kirk Cousins can do it a couple times and pick up yardage anyone can. Merciless was crashing down so hard in that Texas game, Luck could have ran for a first down rather easily.

 

Good observation.  Having re-watched several of our games, there were many opportunities where Luck could've safely, and I emphasize the word safely, scrambled/run for a first down instead of forcing a dangerous incomplete/tipped pass. 

[wordofmouth]

Lucks best option is to keep his health. Having him run more than he already is just advances the risk of injury. He is leading the NFL doing what he is doing. He seems to know when it's time to take off on his own without designed plays for him to run. Pep takes a lot of heat already so what could be worse than getting Luck hurt on a play called by Pep? This forum would blow up.

Again, I am not talking about designed run plays. I am talking about taking off and running when it is the best option, just as he did on his TD runs and several first down runs. I  don't think anyone would suggest he just flops down and gives up, or he throw a pass that shouldn't be thrown. Sometimes running is the best option and he doesn't always recognize this.

Every player has things they can improve on and I think ( based on not very scientific observation) that Luck could still be better in this area.

[crazycolt1]

Again, I am not talking about designed run plays. I am talking about taking off and running when it is the best option, just as he did on his TD runs and several first down runs. I  don't think anyone would suggest he just flops down and gives up, or he throw a pass that shouldn't be thrown. Sometimes running is the best option and he doesn't always recognize this.

Every player has things they can improve on and I think ( based on not very scientific observation) that Luck could still be better in this area.

I understand what you are saying but Luck's brain is geared as a QB and that means throwing the ball as he has been trained to do most of his life.

[wordofmouth]

I understand what you are saying but Luck's brain is geared as a QB and that means throwing the ball as he has been trained to do most of his life.

Fair enough, but one of Luck's strengths is his brain, as well as his legs. So that brain needs to know when those legs are going to be a safer and more productive option than his arm.

That isn't the case often, but, when it is, he needs to do a better job of recognizing it.

[zibby43]

I understand what you are saying but Luck's brain is geared as a QB and that means throwing the ball as he has been trained to do most of his life.

 

Have you watched any of his (i.e., Luck's) tape from high school, Stanford, or his first two years at as a Colt?  Not trying to sound sarcastic when saying that; I'm genuinely asking you.  If you have, you should already know that he has always run quite a bit more than someone like Manning (who is a statue in comparison).  If you haven't, I encourage you to do so. 

 

Luck is a pass-first QB, unquestionably, but throughout his entire career he has been a very effective (fast and physical) and opportunistic runner.   That's a small but critical part of what has made him so successful (mobility and strength both in the pocket and outside of it). 

[ColtsBTM12]

Cool story bro. 

 

 

I agree.

 

 

Well said.

 

 

And he's not in harm's way every time he drops back?

 

 

Because it can be truly effective.  I explained the benefits pretty thoroughly in my first post.  Not only do the plays have the potential to be effective but they will open up other elements of the offense. 

He's in harms way every time he drops back but the risk is still that much greater if he's doing designed runs. What Luck brings to the table athletically isn't anything that the rest of the offensive weapons can't do. Luck's ability when the play breaks down to scramble for first downs is a huge asset to this team however when it comes to designed runs the risk is far greater than the reward.

[crazycolt1]

Have you watched any of his (i.e., Luck's) tape from high school, Stanford, or his first two years at as a Colt?  Not trying to sound sarcastic when saying that; I'm genuinely asking you.  If you have, you should already know that he has always run quite a bit more than someone like Manning (who is a statue in comparison).  If you haven't, I encourage you to do so. 

 

Luck is a pass-first QB, unquestionably, but throughout his entire career he has been a very effective (fast and physical) and opportunistic runner.   That's a small but critical part of what has made him so successful (mobility and strength both in the pocket and outside of it). 

No sarcasm taken. I know exactly what you are saying but the day he entered the NFL he has coaches telling him not to run as much. More than likely they are telling him this is not high school or collage and the opposing players are bigger, faster and stronger. NFL players are trying to hurt you every opportunity they can. JMO respectfully.

[Gavin]

If he slides down more consistently then getting him out scrambling 2-3 times a game would be fine....(He has one hell of an ugly slide most of the time and personally I think if he don't learn to improve it he will get hurt...Not just by an oncoming defender but by getting a leg trapped or twisted wrong or caught in the grass or turf)

[braveheartcolt]

Completely agree.  This is exactly the point I was trying to make.  I never said I wanted Luck to become a run-first QB or any nonsense like that. 

 

But, unfortunately, half of the people that responded to my OP either didn't read it or posted irrelevant statistical dribble that smacked of complacency.

You said you wanted Luck to run more. That is all your OP really said. Some folk agree, some don't. No unfortunately about it. And if you think you can embark on only 'safe' runs, you don't watch enough football.

I think we all held our breath when he was slow to get up after a hit against the Ravens?

Not for me, thanks. When a game is on the line, you take a chance, but you do not put your Franchise on the line for any Tom, Dick or Harry play.

[Gavin]

You said you wanted Luck to run more. That is all your OP really said. Some folk agree, some don't. No unfortunately about it. And if you think you can embark on only 'safe' runs, you don't watch enough football.

I think we all held our breath when he was slow to get up after a hit against the Ravens?

Not for me, thanks. When a game is on the line, you take a chance, but you do not put your Franchise on the line for any Tom, Dick or Harry play.

This isn't my debate but that's not all his/her post really said, He/she was clear about having a few designed runs and about keeping Luck safe and his health a top priority but getting Luck on the move and scrambling could be beneficial...I happen to agree as long as Luck was smart about sliding and not diving head first repeatedly unless it was a must

[braveheartcolt]

This isn't my debate but that's not all his/her post really said, He/she was clear about having a few designed runs and about keeping Luck safe and his health a top priority but getting Luck on the move and scrambling could be beneficial...I happen to agree as long as Luck was smart about sliding and not diving head first repeatedly unless it was a must

It's a forum, anyone can join in.

Top level management summary was zibby wants Luck to run more. Fact. I don't. We think differently on it. No big deal.

[Gaucho781]

I would love to see him run more than he does at the moment, you can't wrap him in cotton wool. The more you worry about potential injuries, the more likely they are to occur, regardless of how Luck operates. 

[SteelCityColt]

I would love to see him run more than he does at the moment, you can't wrap him in cotton wool. The more you worry about potential injuries, the more likely they are to occur, regardless of how Luck operates. 

 

Eh? How does that work?

[braveheartcolt]

Eh? How does that work?

Don't worry about it.....or you may crack a rib or something.

[Gaucho781]

Eh? How does that work?

 

If you're anxious about something, you become tense, if you're tense, you're more susceptible to doing things differently and if you change your natural game, you can put your body in compromising positions thus leading to an injury.

 

Bringing this context back to Luck; if a concerted effort is made to avoid run-plays and if they are deemed as "the elephant in the room" so to speak. When a run is made Luck could potentially go against his natural habits and his body could become compromised.

 

I'm not saying this would happen. However i would be in the camp of favouring a natural-but-cautious-approach. Andrew Luck is a 25 year old athlete in the prime of his physical condition, and as such should be allowed to play football in the most natural way possible. I'm not advocating him turning into a Wilson or Newton or steaming in and taking huge hits. Yet an occasional safe premeditated run play, should be an obvious step in his progression as a footballer, especially at his age. There will be a time in his career when a safer approach will become a necessity, but to argue that a big strong 25 year old should be mollycoddled is frankly absurd. 

[SteelCityColt]

If you're anxious about something, you become tense, if you're tense, you're more susceptible to doing things differently and if you change your natural game, you can put your body in compromising positions thus leading to an injury.

 

Bringing this context back to Luck; if a concerted effort is made to avoid run-plays and if they are deemed as "the elephant in the room" so to speak. When a run is made Luck could potentially go against his natural habits and his body could become compromised.

 

I'm not saying this would happen. However i would be in the camp of favouring a natural-but-cautious-approach. Andrew Luck is a 25 year old athlete in the prime of his physical condition, and as such should be allowed to play football in the most natural way possible. I'm not advocating him turning into a Wilson or Newton or steaming in and taking huge hits. Yet an occasional safe premeditated run play, should be an obvious step in his progression as a footballer, especially at his age. There will be a time in his career when a safer approach will become a necessity, but to argue that a big strong 25 year old should be mollycoddled is frankly absurd. 

 

I'm sorry but I think that's a huge reach on your part especially if you try to directly relate it to Luck. If anything he's not fearful enough of contact. 

 

The best result is where the defense fear Luck's legs (which I think most do) causing them to have to allow for trying to contain him in the pocket. If you've already established that I don't see the need to force it with predetermined runs, sure let him run when the play breaks down but outside that I don't want to gamble with the health of the franchise, and I do mean the franchise. What Luck has other some other QBs is that even if you do manage to contain him in the pocket he can still hurt you, other QBs.. once you take away their mobility aren't nearly the same threat. 

 

That's not to say I don't think there aren't designed QB runs in the play books, but they filed away under "only in case of emergency". 

[BlueShoe]

I like the way he runs. He only runs when he needs to. Quarterbacks throw the ball first. That is exactly what Luck does.

[Gaucho781]

I'm sorry but I think that's a huge reach on your part especially if you try to directly relate it to Luck. If anything he's not fearful enough of contact. 

 

The best result is where the defense fear Luck's legs (which I think most do) causing them to have to allow for trying to contain him in the pocket. If you've already established that I don't see the need to force it with predetermined runs, sure let him run when the play breaks down but outside that I don't want to gamble with the health of the franchise, and I do mean the franchise. What Luck has other some other QBs is that even if you do manage to contain him in the pocket he can still hurt you, other QBs.. once you take away their mobility aren't nearly the same threat. 

 

That's not to say I don't think there aren't designed QB runs in the play books, but they filed away under "only in case of emergency". 

 

I added the part about Luck to contextualize it within the discussion. You initially questioned my theory that a heightened fear of injuries could increase the risk of them occurring. But this theory is proven within the field of sports science and sports science is becoming one of the most integral aspects of any sport. 

 

Back to Luck and your opinion that 'he's not fearful enough of contact.' It's a pertinent point but i'd have to argue that there are probably very few 25 year olds within sport, that are.

 

However if you create a culture of fear surrounding Luck, you cannot say that it will not be detrimental to some degree. If you are constantly hearing about the risk of injury and damage to the franchise as a whole that it would cause. Then this would undoubtedly have some impact on him either consciously or subconsciously; thus looping back to my initial point about doing things "naturally" 

[Smash Mouth]

I have been somewhat disappointed that Luck's running abilities haven't been utilized more effectively this season.

 

Many defenses are almost wholly unprepared to deal with quality mobile QBs.

 

For example, look at what Seattle is doing with Wilson (he gouged the Redskins) and what Carolina is doing with Newton (he's racking up yards against the Bengals).  Both guys are ripping off huge chunk plays via designed runs. 

 

Last year, Luck's running abilities were utilized often in the red zone and in goal-to-go situations (the naked bootleg where he went untouched for 6 comes to mind).

 

I realize that the Colts want to protect their franchise QB (and I agree that keeping him healthy is a top priority) but I would like to see some more designed QB runs.  Luck seems to be scrambling even less this year.  I would rather see him scramble for positive yardage than force throws into tight windows (which thus far has resulted in a lot of tipped balls and interceptions).

 

Not only do I think the runs will be effective, but the runs will open up other opportunities for our offense.  QB runs disrupt blitzing and force defenses to keep a spy up around the line of scrimmage (great for our WRs).

 

My two cents. 

Running QBs get hurt.  Luck runs when he has to which is enough for me.

[SteelCityColt]

I added the part about Luck to contextualize it within the discussion. You initially questioned my theory that a heightened fear of injuries could increase the risk of them occurring. But this theory is proven within the field of sports science and sports science is becoming one of the most integral aspects of any sport. 

 

Back to Luck and your opinion that 'he's not fearful enough of contact.' It's a pertinent point but i'd have to argue that there are probably very few 25 year olds within sport, that are.

 

However if you create a culture of fear surrounding Luck, you cannot say that it will not be detrimental to some degree. If you are constantly hearing about the risk of injury and damage to the franchise as a whole that it would cause. Then this would undoubtedly have some impact on him either consciously or subconsciously; thus looping back to my initial point about doing things "naturally" 

 

While I agree the part about fear can lead to injury, this is something that was know well before sports psychology, I was saying it's a reach to apply it to this discussion.

 

Being mindful or not exposing a key player to unnecessary contact is not creating a a "culture of fear" it's sensible coaching. You're making something out of nothing here. 

[Jim H.]

Tell me why San Francisco, Philadelphia, Seattle, and Carolina (just to name a few) have all made a concerted effort to keep defenses honest with occasional QB runs.

 

 

 

He's established that he's made of glass.  Wilson is tiny compared to Luck and he seems to be doing just fine.  Newton as well (although he's built similarly to Luck). 

 

Foles burned us with runs, too.  Other teams seem to have no problem with it. 

Russell Wilson has yet to take "the" hit yet.  When he does, at his size, it could be devastating to him and the Seahawks.

[SteelCityColt]

Russell Wilson has yet to take "the" hit yet.  When he does, at his size, it could be devastating to him and the Seahawks.

 

Give Wilson his due, he's a savvy runner and avoids contact pretty well. 

 

You could argue all QBs are open to "the hit" even if they aren't runners, but I'd agree those who leave the pocket repeatedly up the risk factor. I'm not sure if the QB protection rules change once they set off and run? 

[Gaucho781]

While I agree the part about fear can lead to injury, this is something that was know well before sports psychology, I was saying it's a reach to apply it to this discussion.

 

Being mindful or not exposing a key player to unnecessary contact is not creating a a "culture of fear" it's sensible coaching. You're making something out of nothing here. 

 

we're clearly never going to agree on this, so should leave it now. I do find it completely incomprehensible however, that you can agree with the principle, yet believe it to be "a reach" in this situation. If a fundamental sports psychology is not applicable to one of the most pertinent sports stars in the world, when is it applicable? 

[Gaucho781]

we're clearly never going to agree on this, so should leave it now. I do find it completely incomprehensible however, that you can agree with the principle, yet believe it to be "a reach" in this situation. If a fundamental sports psychology principle is not applicable to one of the most pertinent sports stars in the world, when is it applicable? 

[SteelCityColt]

we're clearly never going to agree on this, so should leave it now. I do find it completely incomprehensible however, that you can agree with the principle, yet believe it to be "a reach" in this situation. If a fundamental sports psychology is not applicable to one of the most pertinent sports stars in the world, when is it applicable? 

 

I'd say it applies to people who have a fear of contact, which Luck clearly doesn't.... quite the opposite in fact. So yes I can agree with the principle, and also understand it's not applicable here. 

 

I find it equally incomprehensible that you've projected sensible limiting the contact Luck is exposed to as creating a culture of fear. 

 

Let's extend this.. by your theory we shouldn't be telling Luck to slide right?

[BOTT]

Again, I am not talking about designed run plays. I am talking about taking off and running when it is the best option, just as he did on his TD runs and several first down runs. I  don't think anyone would suggest he just flops down and gives up, or he throw a pass that shouldn't be thrown. Sometimes running is the best option and he doesn't always recognize this.

Every player has things they can improve on and I think ( based on not very scientific observation) that Luck could still be better in this area.

I actually want a couple designed runs per game off the read option. That's just cheap yardage that's safe and easy.

[basketballsteve]

The rule interpretation of the QB that runs a read option is that he become the same as a running back and loses his "protections" by rule of what cannot be done to a QB in terms of hits not just when the QB keeps it the football and actually does run but also when he leaves it in the belly of the RB. In other words the QB can be hit like any other player even when he hands it off or after the handoff...........no thanks.

[wesd2890]

When your good a passing the ball you dont have to run

[zibby43]

It's a forum, anyone can join in.

Top level management summary was zibby wants Luck to run more. Fact. I don't. We think differently on it. No big deal.

 

By broadening/generalizing my statement, you ignored my message.

 

There's a marked difference between running 1-2 times more a game, and running on every other play.

 

Both courses of action constitute running more.

 

It's not my fault you chose to deliberately misconstrue my OP and my follow-up posts. 

 

No hard feelings though.  The vast majority of people ITT understood my point. 

[zibby43]

Eh? How does that work?

 

When you play tentatively, you are more likely to get hurt.  You end up receiving blows instead of delivering them and when you're tentative, your form diminishes.  Proper running and tackling forms exist for a reason - to maximize production and safety. 

 

At every level of football I played (high school and college), this message was preached over and over again.  For example, if you're a defender making a tackle, using the right form and exploding into the tackle (head up, consistent angle running from your elbows through your knees) results in a situation in which you are delivering the blow rather than receiving it.

[Draztik]

I think they obviously don't want an injury when he has multiple people to throw to anyways.

Plus seems they save bootlegs and what not for big games at the end of the year and playoffs. Catch other teams off guard thinking he hasn't had designed runs all year.

[braveheartcolt]

By broadening/generalizing my statement, you ignored my message.

 

There's a marked difference between running 1-2 times more a game, and running on every other play.

 

Both courses of action constitute running more.

 

It's not my fault you chose to deliberately misconstrue my OP and my follow-up posts. 

 

No hard feelings though.  The vast majority of people ITT understood my point.

Don't be silly. You never quantified how many more times per game you would like him to run. Just run more. And apart from some obvious comments about wanting to protect him, and the rewarding 'surprise' element a mobile QB can bring, you never brought much into the debate. Your point was fine on it's own, and although I didn't agree with you, it was your whining about those posters who disagreed with you that caught my eye.

Oh, by the way, Luck is averaging 4.3 attempts per game right now. His average in his first two seasons was 3.9.

And the vast majority of people 'ITT' certainly do not.

No hard feelings on my part, and no parting shot either. I like your passion, just not your beligerent tone when some of your fellow Colts fans opined differently.

Go well.

[zibby43]

Don't be silly. You never quantified how many more times per game you would like him to run. Just run more. And apart from some obvious comments about wanting to protect him, and the rewarding 'surprise' element a mobile QB can bring, you never brought much into the debate. Your point was fine on it's own, and although I didn't agree with you, it was your whining about those posters who disagreed with you that caught my eye.

Oh, by the way, Luck is averaging 4.3 attempts per game right now. His average in his first two seasons was 3.9.

And the vast majority of people 'ITT' certainly do not.

No hard feelings on my part, and no parting shot either. I like your passion, just not your beligerent tone when some of your fellow Colts fans opined differently.

Go well.

 

Belligerent (I read this board often throughout the week and if you classify what I said as belligerent, I'd love to know how you feel about some of the other posts that grace this board, particularly on game day)?  Whining (Are you "whining" about my posts?)?  Hardly. 

 

It's just not a fun discussion when one-liners such as "You can't be happy with one of the top offenses," "Ugh," etc. are thrown out.  That's not bringing much to the table - at all.  Quite frankly, there weren't many well-developed rebuttals.  A few "specter" of injury posts. 

 

Didn't bring much to the debate?  I cited previous running plays utilized by Pep (e.g., the naked bootleg against SF), referenced several other successful teams effectively utilizing their QBs' mobility, etc. 

 

Again, I don't think you read the entirety of my posts.  Nor did you read the entirety of my replies. 

 

I'm not going to lose sleep over it.  Neither are you.  Hopefully we'll get along more amicably with respect to other topics. 

 

PS - I don't get bent out of shape by comments like (and I'm paraphrasing), "You need to watch more football" - braveheartcolt.  I've played and coached football at a high level.  I hate to name drop (I'll PM you if you'd like) but I'm friends with a legendary NCAA football coach that has won a national championship. 

 

You and others can disagree with my opinion all you want but it's funny to me when folks base their disagreement on their "football knowledge."  Where is that football knowledge coming from?  From watching a lot of games?  From being a former player?  From being a current or former coach? 

 

Some on here act like they know more than the Colts coaching staff.  Perhaps there are a few folks here with credentials strong enough to back their assertions. 

 

I was throwing a topic out there for discussion.  I can certainly handle opposing viewpoints but for someone to say "No" like it's the "right" answer and is backed by some kind of authoritative football knowledge is humorous to me.  Clearly, in the NFL world, there are two lines of thinking.  Chip Kelly certainly doesn't mind hanging one of his franchise players out to dry as the Eagles frequently (and succesfully) run the read option. 

 

CK in SF has, to an extent, revolutionized the game with his dual threat abilities (cannon of an arm and thoroughbred legs).  People can argue whether he's overrated until they're blue in the face but SF's record under Harbaugh (Alex Smith is another guy that runs quite a bit) and CK's record pretty much speak for themselves.

 

If we wanted to make this a thorough debate, let's compare Luck's attempts per game to Wilson's, Alex Smith's, CK's, Nick F.'s, Cam Newton's, etc. 

 

Have a good one buddy.