3-4 D

[Reddog]

It won't work without a rush LB which we don't have and Werner's not it. The secondary is playing fairly well but can be expected to cover 4 to 5+ seconds.  We better be looking for someone to fill that role if we are going to contend.

[ColtsHoosiersBB]

I like the 3-4 defense we play compared to the bend don't break 4-3 we used

to play. Except the year we won the Superbowl of course. That defense was

pretty solid, save the Patriots game though.

[akcolt]

Is there a defense that works without a pass rush?

 

I think we might need to win a couple of games if we are going to contend. The D hasn't been the problem IMO

[Surge89]

It won't work without a rush LB which we don't have and Werner's not it. The secondary is playing fairly well but can be expected to cover 4 to 5+ seconds. We better be looking for someone to fill that role if we are going to contend.

This defense won't work? OK so have I been living in the twilight zone the past 2 weeks? This DEFENSE HELD 2 OF THE BEST OFFENSE'S IN THE NFL WITHOUT ARGUABLY THEIR 2 BEST PLAYERS. What more do you want? Honestly!

This is not the defense Peyton played with for all those years. We have a respectable defense people, let's put some blame on the inability of the QB and receivers to make plays.

[Reddog]

OK, there is a lot of negativism on this board but here is the question that requires a specific response:  Who is the rush LB with Mathis out? I do not believe there is anyone on our current roster who can effectively fill that role which is essential to put pressure on the QB.  Since many of you disagree with me and purport to know so much about the 3-4, give me the NAME of the player you would start in that position.

[Reddog]

Is there a defense that works without a pass rush?

 

I think we might need to win a couple of games if we are going to contend. The D hasn't been the problem IMO

No, there is not, we agree on that.  Do you think the current pass rush is acceptable?  If so, we disagree on that.

[TKnight24]

Is there a defense that works without a pass rush?

I think we might need to win a couple of games if we are going to contend. The D hasn't been the problem IMO

We'll see tomorrow. While they are playing physical, it's still the Jags we play tomorrow

If we lose to them, might be time to start pointing some fingers

[basketballsteve]

There are pass rushers as in this guy can line up and rush the passer (it's what they do) and there is pass rush as in the under Rex Ryan the Jets have had lots of pass rush that comes from the Buddy Ryan school of let's blitz and then blitz some more and you'll never know who is coming, from which side, and where (overloads). So far it doesn't seem the Colts have been effective at either. Traditionally the Colts were effective at the former (primarily) Mathis and Freeney (Brock and a few others to lesser extents). 

[NewEra]

I don't think anyone on this board would say our current pass rush is acceptable.

[Reddog]

I like the 3-4 defense we play compared to the bend don't break 4-3 we used

to play. Except the year we won the Superbowl of course. That defense was

pretty solid, save the Patriots game though.

I like the 3-4 better also compared to the 2 deep safety 4-3 with the smaller D Line we played under Dungy.  In that 4-3 we had trouble with the run because all 4 down linemen were primarily one gap pass rushers and the LB's were caught between coverage and stopping the run.  In this 3-4 we have large DE, DT, NT who can stuff the run but are not particularly effective pass rushers.  That's why the rush LB position is so important - and I don't believe we have someone who can effectively replace Mathis. 

[BOTT]

OK, there is a lot of negativism on this board but here is the question that requires a specific response:  Who is the rush LB with Mathis out? I do not believe there is anyone on our current roster who can effectively fill that role which is essential to put pressure on the QB.  Since many of you disagree with me and purport to know so much about the 3-4, give me the NAME of the player you would start in that position.

Is has nothing to do with the defense being a 3-4. The problem is the Colts came into the season with only one legit pass rusher.

[Ja'Crispy]

We'll see tomorrow. While they are playing physical, it's still the Jags we play tomorrow

If we lose to them, might be time to start pointing some fingers

 

If we lose to Jax, I will be afraid to come on to this forum.

 

[coltsfanatic24]

What I've noticed about about 3-4 defenses and great defenses in general, is that they all have great ILB's. Ray Lewis talked about it before the Eagles game, no one knows more about that position then he does. He said he was concerned about our ILB's shedding blocks and covering the Eagles RB's in space from the game film he seen vs the Broncos, and he was right. This team needs a great ILB that can do it all, Jackson is too slow and Freeman is inconsistent. I think the pass rush will eventually step up and will see more blitzes, but the coverage of the ILB's is still a major concern.

[Reddog]

Is has nothing to do with the defense being a 3-4. The problem is the Colts came into the season with only one legit pass rusher.

Exactly with regard to the latter, but it has everything to do with playing a 3-4 as opposed to a 4-3.  See my explanation above so I don't have to type it again.  My question continues to be, who is going to be that pass rusher???

[Reddog]

What I've noticed about about 3-4 defenses and great defenses in general, is that they all have great ILB's. Ray Lewis talked about it before the Eagles game, no one knows more about that position then he does. He said he was concerned about our ILB's shedding blocks and covering the Eagles RB's in space from the game film he seen vs the Broncos, and he was right. This team needs a great ILB that can do it all, Jackson is too slow and Freeman is inconsistent. I think the pass rush will eventually step up and will see more blitzes, but the coverage of the ILB's is still a major concern.

I agree with you, Jackson is slow and can't cover, a bad FA signing IMO, I would rather had Angerer if he could stay healthy.  I like Freeman but agree again, he's not the anchor.  I'm sure we will try different blitz packages, but you still need someone who can get there or is doubled so the designated pass rusher comes with minimal resistance.  We don't have this player on the roster at least IMHO...

[ColtJ82]

I agree with you, Jackson is slow and can't cover, a bad FA signing IMO, I would rather had Angerer if he could stay healthy.  I like Freeman but agree again, he's not the anchor.  I'm sure we will try different blitz packages, but you still need someone who can get there or is doubled so the designated pass rusher comes with minimal resistance.  We don't have this player on the roster at least IMHO...

So you don't like the Jackson signing because he is slow and can't cover.......and you want Pat Angerer instead?   

I haven't been very impressed by Jackson either. The lack of pass rush is also killing the LBs trying to cover TEs. They especially can't hold coverage. Even worse, our safeties can't cover when we send the LBs. We definitely need to figure out a pass rush. Newsome has the speed, but lacks the experience. 

[BOTT]

Exactly with regard to the latter, but it has everything to do with playing a 3-4 as opposed to a 4-3.  See my explanation above so I don't have to type it again.  My question continues to be, who is going to be that pass rusher???

You fail to grasp the fact the colts would be in the same situation if they ran a 43.....they would still be without a pass rusher

[Coffeedrinker]

It won't work without a rush LB which we don't have and Werner's not it. The secondary is playing fairly well but can be expected to cover 4 to 5+ seconds.  We better be looking for someone to fill that role if we are going to contend.

QBs are not getting 4 to 5 seconds to throw.

 

The pass rush is not great so there is no need to exaggerate.  Most QBs in the league have about 2.5 seconds to throw (it has also been shown that when a QB takes more than 2.5 seconds their completion percentage drops significantly).  What the Colts pass rush has failed to do is to cause the QB discomfort in that 2.5 seconds.  They are, for the most part, still a good yard away when the QB releases the ball.

 

People want to blame Werner and he does deserve some of the blame because he has no pass rush moves once engaged but the Colts need to also get some push from that DT (Jones, RJF) or DE(Redding) spot and none of the three down lineman are providing a consistent push upfield.  I don't care about sacks from those three but they need to start pushing their guys at least two yards upfield, so the QB cannot take a step or two forward and avoid the outside pass rush.

[atapcl]

McNary was a pass rusher that we turned into an Ilb. Maybe he should be the rush lb.

[Jason_]

McNary was a pass rusher that we turned into an Ilb. Maybe he should be the rush lb.

 

The one time I saw McNary lined up as a pure pass rusher (he was lined up as a RDE in a sub package against Philly) he got thrown right to the ground by Peters.  Yes, Peters is one of the better LT's in the league, but at least Werner was putting up a fight against him.  

[DougDew]

I've posted this before.  Bill Polian said that one of the inherent problems with the 34 defense is that you have to manufacture a pass rush (like blitzing), because the three down lineman are their to stop the run, and don't penetrate the LOS.  This is why he preferred the 43 (but was more porous against the run due to quicker DE's)

 

I think Mathis was really a left over from the Polian days, and isn't really a true OLB, so comparing a new player to him is not really apples to apples comparison.

 

Has anybody noticed that our run D has been better without Mathis?

 

I think the Colts either need to better manufacture a pass rush....or trade up into the top 15 and get a player that can do all three things...pass rush...play the run....and occasionally provide some marginal pass coverage.  You can't expect to find a player like that in the bottom half of the 1st round, IMO.

 

Yes, the 34 D needs that player at OLB.  I don't think Werner or Walden was ever really expected to be that player.

 

I always think of the past NE 34, where guys like Vrabel and McGinnest never really excelled at any one thing, but always did everything well and made the right play at the right time.  You need guys like them on a successful D, and I think Werner and Walden can be versions of those.  But...the Colts do need a more athletic presence at rush OLB.

[wesd2890]

I dont know how you say our defense has looked good. Its 29thhis in the league. Last time i checked theres only 32 teams. Lol how are we playing good ranked 29th? Without a consistent pass rush dont expect the defense to finish in the top 20. We statistically have the heaviest and slowest defense in the league. Seahawks have the lightest and fastest defense in the league. Hints why theyre so good the have speed to attack the ball.. we simply do not

[Jason_]

I dont know how you say our defense has looked good. Its 29thhis in the league. Last time i checked theres only 32 teams. Lol how are we playing good ranked 29th? Without a consistent pass rush dont expect the defense to finish in the top 20. We statistically have the heaviest and slowest defense in the league. Seahawks have the lightest and fastest defense in the league. Hints why theyre so good the have speed to attack the ball.. we simply do not

 

Speed alone doesn't always get things done...see Dungy's defenses in Indy and Minnesota.  As for the Colt defense, are you taking into consideration at all that so far they've played 2 of the best offenses in the league in Denver and Philly?

[masterlock]

I dont know how you say our defense has looked good. Its 29thhis in the league. Last time i checked theres only 32 teams. Lol how are we playing good ranked 29th? Without a consistent pass rush dont expect the defense to finish in the top 20. We statistically have the heaviest and slowest defense in the league. Seahawks have the lightest and fastest defense in the league. Hints why theyre so good the have speed to attack the ball.. we simply do not

Exactly. 29th in the league in yards and 27th in passing--not exactly the kind of D you want to take into the playoffs. A good defense is what is supposed to win games when your offense has a bad day.

[Reddog]

penetrators

You fail to grasp the fact the colts would be in the same situation if they ran a 43.....they would still be without a pass rusher

If they were running the 4-3 all the personnel would be different - Smaller and faster up front, all one gap 

penetrators...we wouldn't need or have a rush linebacker...I explained this earlier, try to stay with me blood...

[Dustin]

If they were running the 4-3 all the personnel would be different - Smaller and faster up front, all one gap 

penetrators...we wouldn't need or have a rush linebacker...I explained this earlier, try to stay with me blood...

 

We don't have anyone on the roster who would excell (or even be good) at DE. We still would not have an edge rusher. 

[Reddog]

We don't have anyone on the roster who would excell (or even be good) at DE. We still would not have an edge rusher. 

Wow, this has gone full circle.  My point was we are running at 3-4 and don't have anyone on the roster who can play that position with Mathis out.  I suggest we look into Freeney and was treated rudely.  Then someone brings up the 4-3, a different D with the need for personnel which we don't currently have and why?? We are not running the 4-3!!!  So the question remains:  In our 3-4 who plays rush linebacker!!!

[dudeski]

The one time I saw McNary lined up as a pure pass rusher (he was lined up as a RDE in a sub package against Philly) he got thrown right to the ground by Peters. Yes, Peters is one of the better LT's in the league, but at least Werner was putting up a fight against him.

peters didn't even try. Mcnary was swatted like a fly

[Coffeedrinker]

Wow, this has gone full circle.  My point was we are running at 3-4 and don't have anyone on the roster who can play that position with Mathis out.  I suggest we look into Freeney and was treated rudely.  Then someone brings up the 4-3, a different D with the need for personnel which we don't currently have and why?? We are not running the 4-3!!!  So the question remains:  In our 3-4 who plays rush linebacker!!!

Freeney plays for the Chargers... how would the Colts get Freeney to come back?

[Reddog]

Freeney plays for the Chargers... how would the Colts get Freeney to come back?

We'd have to trade for him.

[Coffeedrinker]

We'd have to trade for him.

Freeney was always one of my favorite Colts and he's doing pretty well in SD (2nd in the league in QB pressures amongst OLBs) so why would SD trade him.  They are hurting at OLB right now and Freeney is playing the starters role getting about 80% of the defensive snaps.  How exactly would you pull that trade off?

[BOTT]

If they were running the 4-3 all the personnel would be different - Smaller and faster up front, all one gap 

penetrators...we wouldn't need or have a rush linebacker...I explained this earlier, try to stay with me blood...

I give up

[Coffeedrinker]

I give up

Oh come on.  Don't you get it?  The Colts have no one to replace Mathis at the moment.  So the easier thing to do, obviously, is to change the entire defensive lineman, linebackers and defensive scheme so the Colts no longer have a need for a rush linebacker.  It's almost too easy.

[SteelCityColt]

Oh come on.  Don't you get it?  The Colts have no one to replace Mathis at the moment.  So the easier thing to do, obviously, is to change the entire defensive lineman, linebackers and defensive scheme so the Colts no longer have a need for a rush linebacker.  It's almost too easy.

 

Seems Legit, anyone have Drake Nevis' number?

[SkyBane]

Seems Legit, anyone have Drake Nevis' number?

Probably right next to Caeser Rayford in the ol' rolodex.

[SteelCityColt]

Probably right next to Caeser Rayford in the ol' rolodex.

 

I heard he'd jumped onto the health food craze and was doing salads now.

[Reddog]

I give up

Good idea...

[Reddog]

Freeney was always one of my favorite Colts and he's doing pretty well in SD (2nd in the league in QB pressures amongst OLBs) so why would SD trade him.  They are hurting at OLB right now and Freeney is playing the starters role getting about 80% of the defensive snaps.  How exactly would you pull that trade off?

A third, maybe a second round draft pick, I don't think it would take lot at his age.

[Reddog]

Wow, this has gone full circle.  My point was we are running at 3-4 and don't have anyone on the roster who can play that position with Mathis out.  I suggest we look into Freeney and was treated rudely.  Then someone brings up the 4-3, a different D with the need for personnel which we don't currently have and why?? We are not running the 4-3!!!  So the question remains:  In our 3-4 who plays rush linebacker!!!

I never suggested for a second that we go to a 4-3, look above, I, in fact, was saying we certainly don't have the personnel to do it.  So I will ask the same question I have asked a half dozen times on this board, with a little more specificity...Given that we are committed to the 3-4 this season and we want to have a decent pass rush, who on the roster or potentially available would you put in the rush linebacker position now.  If no one has an answer because they don't understand the question or they have no clue, I will, graciously, give up as well...

[SteelCityColt]

I never suggested for a second that we go to a 4-3, look above, I, in fact, was saying we certainly don't have the personnel to do it.  So I will ask the same question I have asked a half dozen times on this board, with a little more specificity...Given that we are committed to the 3-4 this season and we want to have a decent pass rush, who on the roster or potentially available would you put in the rush linebacker position now.  If no one has an answer because they don't understand the question or they have no clue, I will, graciously, give up as well...

 

Moving on then to your actual question...

 

My take is the predicament we find ourselves in is because we've relied on a pass rush from just one person, the rush backer in terms of position but more worrying in terms of players it's just been Matthis. 

 

We need, IMO, to see more pressure coming from the SAM (to his credit I think Walden has done a good jon), and also from the ILBs. Problem being I don't think we have the talent at ILB outside of Freeman.