I SAY LETS WIN NOW..

[Jaric]

That would not have been the plan until the rookie scale can in place. I am not talking about Trent Dilfer. How about a Kaepernick or a Wilson or a Flacco. That worked out pretty well. But, yes, I would have traded the pick since it would have brought a haul of draft picks unmatched in NFL history. I would have done two or three drafts and then looked for a franchise QB if I had not already drafted him with the picks I would have gotten for Luck.

Trade Luck? This is a joke right?

[Beauregarde]

Trade Luck? This is a joke right?

Knowing what we know now? Yes, I would have taken the boat load of picks for Luck and built the team with a great defense and then two or three years later, I would have started looking for a franchise QB. I think what the Colts did represents the old model for building a team and it failed as often as it succeeded. The last two years have shown us that there is another method for developing a championship team and that is the route I would have gone. And, no, I am not joking. But, since we have Luck, lets surround him with great free agent talent and another solid draft and go for winning this thing while he is on his rookie contract.

[Jaric]

Knowing what we know now? Yes, I would have taken the boat load of picks for Luck and built the team with a great defense and then two or three years later, I would have started looking for a franchise QB. I think what the Colts did represents the old model for building a team and it failed as often as it succeeded. The last two years have shown us that there is another method for developing a championship team and that is the route I would have gone. And, no, I am not joking. But, since we have Luck, lets surround him with great free agent talent and another solid draft and go for winning this thing while he is on his rookie contract.

Yeah, I can't take you seriously anymore sorry.

[Beauregarde]

Yeah, I can't take you seriously anymore sorry.

Nothing to be sorry about. When Luck was drafted, I would have taken him too because that was the model then. It isn't the model now and if it happened again, I would not draft him but take the load of picks that would have come for him. But that is hindsight. It will be interesting to watch how other teams do it from now on. You asked the question and I gave you a truthful answer. I doubt that I am alone on that at least other than in Indy. I like the kid too but I am not sure this building model works any more.

[Jaric]

Nothing to be sorry about. When Luck was drafted, I would have taken him too because that was the model then. It isn't the model now and if it happened again, I would not draft him but take the load of picks that would have come for him. But that is hindsight. It will be interesting to watch how other teams do it from now on. You asked the question and I gave you a truthful answer. I doubt that I am alone on that at least other than in Indy. I like the kid too but I am not sure this building model works any more.

Trading Andrew Luck would be one of those moves that would haunt this franchise forever. We have a true difference maker at the most important position in all of team sports. The idea of trading him is beyond absurd for so many reasons I cannot even begin to list them all here.

By the way, the team you're talking about building is pretty much the Cincinnati Bengals.

[SLILLINGTON10]

Fleener as a second year player  accomplished what D Allen accomplished as a rookie  you are correct .

 

But as rookies D . Allen proved his self to be much better at everything  compared to Fleener .

 

Fleener needed that extra season to catch up  IMO ..

Which is fine i am not saying when allen's contract is up we should start a rookie. i am just saying he is replaceable. specially if next year we grab a TE and work with him for a year. There is no need to break the bank for allen or fleener imo

[SLILLINGTON10]

Stats are similar between one's rookie year and the others second year, as mentioned, but that's entirely stat focused. Allen doesn't have to leave the field - he's a complete TE. He's a reliable target and a solid blocker. Fleener replaced part of Allen's game, but he still left a big hole in the blocking game that Allen provided.

I would say that in today's league blocking TE are overrated. Also, we can find any other blocking TE in pretty much every draft class.

[SteelCityColt]

I would say that in today's league blocking TE are overrated. Also, we can find any other blocking TE in pretty much every draft class.

But can you easily find a TE who's good at blocking and a legitimate receiving threat? We already have issues with telegraphing that we are running the ball.

[HGRekks]

I would say that in today's league blocking TE are overrated. Also, we can find any other blocking TE in pretty much every draft class.

 But Allen is not purely a blocking TE, as you pointed out with his stats that, as you mentioned, nearly mirrored Fleener's. Being a good blocker and a solid receiver means Allen isn't a 'tell' when on the field, as he can legitimately do either on any given play. He also doesn't ever have to leave the field, as he's just as valuable in 3rd and short as he is in 3rd and long. Fleener doesn't provide that, though he looks like he might be a better mid-range to deep threat and a more explosive athlete. As of now, though, that blocking is a huge difference in both predictability and effectiveness.

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

Which is fine i am not saying when allen's contract is up we should start a rookie. i am just saying he is replaceable. specially if next year we grab a TE and work with him for a year. There is no need to break the bank for allen or fleener imo

 

 

Lets just watch Allen in 2014 .

 

IMO he is not replaceable he was a first round talent that slide into the 3'rd round & showed more IMO in 1 year as a all around TE which means blocking than Fleener has in 2 ..

[Beauregarde]

Trading Andrew Luck would be one of those moves that would haunt this franchise forever. We have a true difference maker at the most important position in all of team sports. The idea of trading him is beyond absurd for so many reasons I cannot even begin to list them all here.

By the way, the team you're talking about building is pretty much the Cincinnati Bengals.

No, the teams I am talking about are the 49ers, Seahawks and Ravens. Having Andrew Luck and never getting to a SB will also haunt the team.

[Jaric]

No, the teams I am talking about are the 49ers, Seahawks and Ravens. Having Andrew Luck and never getting to a SB will also haunt the team.

Dear Lord.

He just finished his second freaking season. It might be a little premature to declare the window is closing.

[Beauregarde]

Dear Lord.

He just finished his second freaking season. It might be a little premature to declare the window is closing.

It will just about slam shut when he gets his $20 million slice. I am not saying he is not worth it. I am saying, get it done before that happens. Other teams will be doing it a different way and adding their QB on a rookie scale after the rest of the team is built. Wilson could win a couple of more SBs in the next two or three years and then Seattle will have the same problem and they will have to start letting some great talent go because Wilson will break the bank.

[Beauregarde]

Dear Lord.

He just finished his second freaking season. It might be a little premature to declare the window is closing.

The next team to take that route to the SB may be the Texans if they draft Clowney this year and take a less expensive QB.

[Nesjan3]

i dont understand why everyone says "build a Super Bowl contender and make a run". Why not get all the pieces in place and develop a team that can make multiple Super Bowl runs...example the 49ers of the 80s and 90s, the Cowboys of the 90s, the Pats of the early 2000 era, even the Bills in the early 90s, these are not teams that just made a run, a few successful drafts, good coaching and a little bit of patience to get all the pieces in right and these teams were able to make multiple runs for years, THIS is what we need to do with LUCK

[Jaric]

It will just about slam shut when he gets his $20 million slice.

Yeah not so much.

[Jaric]

The next team to take that route to the SB may be the Texans if they draft Clowney this year and take a less expensive QB.

Ok, now I know you're just trolling.

[Patagonia Chris]

Threads like this are the reason that Robert Mathis gets on here when he needs a good laugh.

[Beauregarde]

Ok, now I know you're just trolling.

Not at all. That is a very good team. Drafting Clowney will make a very good defense even better. Fill a few more holes, let Schaub go and next year bring in the best QB you can draft and they will be very good and have several cap friendly years to get the job done. Why aren't you trolling Superman, he started this thread, I just happen to agree with him.

[cbear]

I think its funny fans on the internet legitimately think they have the slightest clue on how an organization should be run.  

 

It's the degree of self-delusion that's the difference.  We all think we know a little something.  Others think they know a lot of something.  We probably know about 10% of what we think we know.  But hey, what's the internet for???  ;)

[Jaric]

Not at all. That is a very good team. Drafting Clowney will make a very good defense even better. Fill a few more holes, let Schaub go and next year bring in the best QB you can draft and they will be very good and have several cap friendly years to get the job done. Why aren't you trolling Superman, he started this thread, I just happen to agree with him.

Yeah, such a good team they lost 14 straight football game.

[Beauregarde]

Yeah, such a good team they lost 14 straight football game.

KC made a huge turnaround this season. The Texans were not a 14 loss football team. They have a good defense and some good pieces on offense. They could make an eight game or more turn around in my opinion. I am watching them carefully. If they draft a QB, then they buy the take a franchise QB when have the chance philosophy. If they draft Clowney or trade down then they might head the way of the Seattle Seahawks and look for a QB next year or in later rounds this year.

[BLUEx40]

Yeah, I can't take you seriously anymore sorry.

everything the guy writes is garbage he has a thread started that states he wants to trade for harbaugh  

[Beauregarde]

everything the guy writes is garbage he has a thread started that states he wants to trade for harbaugh  

I did not say anything about trading for Harbaugh. I said they should hire him if he is really available and several people agreed. Pagano is a weak link in getting this team to the SB. He may turn into a decent coach but he is way short of Harbaugh right now. If what I wrote was garbage, there wouldn't have been so many people agreeing with me.

[Jaric]

I did not say anything about trading for Harbaugh. I said they should hire him if he is really available and several people agreed. Pagano is a weak link in getting this team to the SB. He may turn into a decent coach but he is way short of Harbaugh right now. If what I wrote was garbage, there wouldn't have been so many people agreeing with me.

Robert Mathis thought you'd lost your mind. I'll trust his opinion versus some fans on the internet.

[Beauregarde]

Robert Mathis thought you'd lost your mind. I'll trust his opinion versus some fans on the internet.

What ever you want to think. Ariens was a better coach than Pagano and he should have won coach of the year again. How in the world could a player on the team say anything against Pagano without making themselves look bad. Tell Mathis he should try tackling a running back just once in a while.

[jskinnz]

Knowing what we know now? Yes, I would have taken the boat load of picks for Luck and built the team with a great defense and then two or three years later, I would have started looking for a franchise QB. I think what the Colts did represents the old model for building a team and it failed as often as it succeeded. The last two years have shown us that there is another method for developing a championship team and that is the route I would have gone. And, no, I am not joking. But, since we have Luck, lets surround him with great free agent talent and another solid draft and go for winning this thing while he is on his rookie contract.

 

So the franchise QB model is a thing of the past?  I don't think the evidence comes close to supporting that claim.  QB is the most important position in all of sports.  They are the one player whose performance most dictates winning and losing.  I don't believe their value can be overestimated.  In the AFC alone, 10 of the last 11 QB's in the Super Bowl were elite, franchise-level QB's in Brady, Manning and Big Ben.  The lone exception is Flacco who some would argue is elite himself.  That tells me to win, you have to have a great QB.  And when you get one, you hold onto them like grim death and pay whatever is necessary. 

 

I look at teams with talented rosters but lack at the QB position - Cincy, Houston, etc and the one reason they don't win is because they dont have the QB.

[Beauregarde]

So the franchise QB model is a thing of the past?  I don't think the evidence comes close to supporting that claim.  QB is the most important position in all of sports.  They are the one player whose performance most dictates winning and losing.  I don't believe their value can be overestimated.  In the AFC alone, 10 of the last 11 QB's in the Super Bowl were elite, franchise-level QB's in Brady, Manning and Big Ben.  The lone exception is Flacco who some would argue is elite himself.  That tells me to win, you have to have a great QB.  And when you get one, you hold onto them like grim death and pay whatever is necessary. 

 

I look at teams with talented rosters but lack at the QB position - Cincy, Houston, etc and the one reason they don't win is because they dont have the QB.

How about Seattle and San Francisco? I like their model.

[jskinnz]

How about Seattle and San Francisco? I like their model.

 

Ummm, are not their QB's franchise level players in the making?

 

Does Seattle win the whole thing this year if Matt Flynn is their QB?  That answer lies somewhere between no and heck no.

[Beauregarde]

Ummm, are not their QB's franchise level players in the making?

 

Does Seattle win the whole thing this year if Matt Flynn is their QB?  That answer lies somewhere between no and heck no.

You miss my point and I'll make it one last time and let anyone else answer that wants to do it. The last CBA has changed the game and the rookie scale has changed the game. What Seattle, the 49ers and Baltimore did was have a very good team and they added a QB with it and surrounded him with all of the talent they could and played to win it all while that QB was still on his rookie contract. That is all I am saying. You have a two year window of opportunity with Luck before he scores the big bucks to surround him talent and make the same kind of run. I vote we do it. Others want to be conservative and build through the draft and a few conservative free agents. That slow approach may result in Luck never getting to a SB at all. Watch Houston closely. If they draft a QB with that first round pick then everything is status quo. But, if they take Clowney or trade down and make do with a QB they already have or draft one later in the draft, the game is on. That is the next team that could take that template the three teams I mentioned earlier used and make it work for them. I can't wait to see what happens.

[jskinnz]

How about Seattle and San Francisco? I like their model.

 

And San Fran, who had been to the NFCCG the season before, thought their best chance to win it all was to change to Kaepernick midseason.  They thought they had all the ingrediants except QB.

[BLUEx40]

I did not say anything about trading for Harbaugh. I said they should hire him if he is really available and several people agreed. Pagano is a weak link in getting this team to the SB. He may turn into a decent coach but he is way short of Harbaugh right now. If what I wrote was garbage, there wouldn't have been so many people agreeing with me.

I guess your a glass half full kind of a guy because there were plenty of people disagreeing with you to

[jskinnz]

You miss my point and I'll make it one last time and let anyone else answer that wants to do it. The last CBA has changed the game and the rookie scale has changed the game. What Seattle, the 49ers and Baltimore did was have a very good team and they added a QB with it and surrounded him with all of the talent they could and played to win it all while that QB was still on his rookie contract. That is all I am saying. You have a two year window of opportunity with Luck before he scores the big bucks to surround him talent and make the same kind of run. I vote we do it. Others want to be conservative and build through the draft and a few conservative free agents. That slow approach may result in Luck never getting to a SB at all. Watch Houston closely. If they draft a QB with that first round pick then everything is status quo. But, if they take Clowney or trade down and make do with a QB they already have or draft one later in the draft, the game is on. That is the next team that could take that template the three teams I mentioned earlier used and make it work for them. I can't wait to see what happens.

 

I missed no such point.  They are not so evolved to have escaped me. 

 

The Colts are going to be good for the next decade because they have Luck, no matter what he costs.  Simple as that.  See the QB's I mentioned from the AFC and look at how much those guys count towards the cap, when it was smaller than it is now or will be.  It can be done.  You can't win in the league without great QB play and you have to pay for it.   

 

Your two year window argument is weak and absolute nonsense.  The point that the conservative approach may never result in a Super Bowl - well duh.  Nothing is certain.  Kind of like your throw caution to the wind approach - that ain't no certainty either.  Not even close.  And can't a team with an expensive QB take advantage of the rookie wage scale too? 

 

If Houston tries to make due with the QB's they already have, they are doomed to repeat their past failures. 

[Patagonia Chris]

You miss my point and I'll make it one last time and let anyone else answer that wants to do it. The last CBA has changed the game and the rookie scale has changed the game. What Seattle, the 49ers and Baltimore did was have a very good team and they added a QB with it and surrounded him with all of the talent they could and played to win it all while that QB was still on his rookie contract. That is all I am saying. You have a two year window of opportunity with Luck before he scores the big bucks to surround him talent and make the same kind of run. I vote we do it. Others want to be conservative and build through the draft and a few conservative free agents. That slow approach may result in Luck never getting to a SB at all. Watch Houston closely. If they draft a QB with that first round pick then everything is status quo. But, if they take Clowney or trade down and make do with a QB they already have or draft one later in the draft, the game is on. That is the next team that could take that template the three teams I mentioned earlier used and make it work for them. I can't wait to see what happens.

1. Flacco's rookie contract was under the old CBA. The Ravens didn't go out and "go for it all" in one season. The majority of their key players (Flacco, Lewis, Pitta, Torrey Smith, Suggs, Oher, B. Pierce, Dickson, Ed Reed, Ngata, Kruger, Arthur Jones, Ellerbee, McClain, Upshaw, Tucker, Yanda) All began their careers with Baltimore and the other contributors who weren't (Boldin, Williams, Pollard) Had all been on the team at least the previous season. The one free agent acquisition who contributed? Corey Graham who had started a total of 10 games in his career before joining the Ravens. So if you're going to use a terrible example at least make sure it's a correct example. 

2. With Seattle and San Francisco, they kind of lucked into the situation. The 49ers were one of the best teams in the league with Alex Smith at QB (And he was making $11 Mil per at that time.) Did they become better because they freed up cap space or did they become better because Kaepernick added a new dimension to their offense? If you look at the 49ers and Seahawks rosters you'll see that a majority of their key contributors have all been drafted by their respective teams. 

3. If you look it up you'll see that "going for it", while it might be the right thing to do on prom night after a couple of cold ones, isn't exactly a winning mindset in the NFL. All of the franchises you have mentioned above have built a solid foundation for the team using draft picks, which also allows them to keep the cap space adequate so that if they're one player away they have the space or resources to afford to make that one signing or trade that puts into the elite team category. Teams that have traditionally built around this strategy (Ravens, Patriots, Colts, Packers, 49ers, Seahawks) have done a lot better than the teams that have regularly "gone for it" in the off-season (Raiders, Redskins, Cowboys, "Dream Team" Eagles)

4. It is worth noting too that Grigson was a member of the Eagles front office that "went for it" and failed miserably, so I think it's safe to say he learned his lesson and will be a little more cautious when it comes to free agency, which is the right approach.

5. Also if Houston passes on a QB it's probably because they don't feel comfortable risking the future on Bortles, Bridgewater, Carr or Manziel, and that probably isn't a terrible decision. The franchise is better off with a great DE/OLB than a below-average QB.

[jskinnz]

1. Flacco's rookie contract was under the old CBA. The Ravens didn't go out and "go for it all" in one season. The majority of their key players (Flacco, Lewis, Pitta, Torrey Smith, Suggs, Oher, B. Pierce, Dickson, Ed Reed, Ngata, Kruger, Arthur Jones, Ellerbee, McClain, Upshaw, Tucker, Yanda) All began their careers with Baltimore and the other contributors who weren't (Boldin, Williams, Pollard) Had all been on the team at least the previous season. The one free agent acquisition who contributed? Corey Graham who had started a total of 10 games in his career before joining the Ravens. So if you're going to use a terrible example at least make sure it's a correct example. 

2. With Seattle and San Francisco, they kind of lucked into the situation. The 49ers were one of the best teams in the league with Alex Smith at QB (And he was making $11 Mil per at that time.) Did they become better because they freed up cap space or did they become better because Kaepernick added a new dimension to their offense? If you look at the 49ers and Seahawks rosters you'll see that a majority of their key contributors have all been drafted by their respective teams. 

3. If you look it up you'll see that "going for it", while it might be the right thing to do on prom night after a couple of cold ones, isn't exactly a winning mindset in the NFL. All of the franchises you have mentioned above have built a solid foundation for the team using draft picks, which also allows them to keep the cap space adequate so that if they're one player away they have the space or resources to afford to make that one signing or trade that puts into the elite team category. Teams that have traditionally built around this strategy (Ravens, Patriots, Colts, Packers, 49ers, Seahawks) have done a lot better than the teams that have regularly "gone for it" in the off-season (Raiders, Redskins, Cowboys, "Dream Team" Eagles)

4. It is worth noting too that Grigson was a member of the Eagles front office that "went for it" and failed miserably, so I think it's safe to say he learned his lesson and will be a little more cautious when it comes to free agency, which is the right approach.

5. Also if Houston passes on a QB it's probably because they don't feel comfortable risking the future on Bortles, Bridgewater, Carr or Manziel, and that probably isn't a terrible decision. The franchise is better off with a great DE/OLB than a below-average QB.

 

Fantastic post.

 

All true and directly counters his misguided way of building a team.  There is no new model.

[Jaric]

What ever you want to think. Ariens was a better coach than Pagano and he should have won coach of the year again. How in the world could a player on the team say anything against Pagano without making themselves look bad. Tell Mathis he should try tackling a running back just once in a while.

He didn't have to say anything. He felt compelled to point out how absurd the idea of bringing in Jim Harbaugh was after reading some of the foolishness that was posted on the subject.

As to telling the reigning AFC defensive player of the year how to play football, I'll leave that up to you. If I get a chance to talk to the man I'm thanking him for what he's done for this team, and maybe ask what it felt like to finally be able to hit Peyton after all those years.

[Jaric]

Fantastic post.

All true and directly counters his misguided way of building a team. There is no new model.

But...but... The window!... Closing!...

[Gavin]

Yeah, such a good team they lost 14 straight football game.

They really are a significantly better team then what there record said last year, They lost:

 

1.There starting QB, Was Schaub great? No but the 4 straight games of throwing a pick 6 was a bit overstated....Bad stretch but good QB....Not great....Not a QB thats ever going carry you to the SB and he does appear to let bad plays linger in his mind and it affects his play at times, But overall good QB, A QB that can make a team that is a QB away from being a playoff contender an immediate playoff contender

 

2.They lost Arian Foster 8 games into the season

 

3.They lost Johnathan Joseph an All Pro Corner

 

4.Brian Cushing All Pro Linebacker (after 7 games)

 

5.Owen Daniels (after 5 games )

[Jaric]

They really are a significantly better team then what there record said last year, They lost:

1.There starting QB, Was Schaub great? No but the 4 straight games of throwing a pick 6 was a bit overstated....Bad stretch but good QB....Not great....Not a QB thats ever going carry you to the SB and he does appear to let bad plays linger in his mind and it affects his play at times, But overall good QB, A QB that can make a team that is a QB away from being a playoff contender an immediate playoff contender

2.They lost Arian Foster 8 games into the season

3.They lost Johnathan Joseph an All Pro Corner

4.Brian Cushing All Pro Linebacker (after 7 games)

5.Owen Daniels (after 5 games )

To quote the great Bill Parcells "you are what your record says you are." If you guys want to argue they're the best 2-14 team ever go nuts but that's like being the thinnest kid at fat camp.

As to injuries, we lost far more people during the season than they did and we still managed to make the playoffs plus win a playoff game.

[Gavin]

To quote the great Bill Parcells "you are what your record says you are." If you guys want to argue they're the best 2-14 team ever go nuts but that's like being the thinnest kid at fat camp.

As to injuries, we lost far more people during the season than they did and we still managed to make the playoffs plus win a playoff game.

Of course we managed to make the playoffs, we didn't lose our starting QB, Its not about always the number of people you lose, Its about who you lose, Which player did we lose outside of Wayne is an established player? There isn't one yet...Dwayne Allen will be probably but he isn't there yet, you can argue Bradshaw and Ballard