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Sell me on Datone Jones at 24


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Grigson also said in the presser that none of the mocks for the Colts were accurate and Datone Jones was mocked for us by a lot of gurus.

 

 

Well....

 

I personally wouldn't read too much into that particular response...

 

Honestly, I took it to mean 'no,  but even if the answer was yes, I wouldn't tell you anyway!!'

 

That was my read anyway.....

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Looking at the video above wouldn't you say the word is wrong, whoever said said that 

They were discussing him on NFL network...concensus was he was a very good pass rusher but not so good against the run.

They did not say that he NEVER made a play against the run.

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They were discussing him on NFL network...concensus was he was a very good pass rusher but not so good against the run.

They did not say that he NEVER made a play against the run.

What was there reason for saying that and who said that? just curious

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Is that why he went and got a 290lbs Francios to play DE, and played with Pernell McPhee at 280lbs at DE in Baltimore in 2011

 

Pernell McPhee played limited downs and was not drafted in round 1. You dont draft a limited down DE in round 1, IMO.

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They were discussing him on NFL network...concensus was he was a very good pass rusher but not so good against the run.

They did not say that he NEVER made a play against the run.

 

That was based on the game he played vs Stanford and other Pac-12 teams, he got pushed around in the running game. I have heard that from folks that have watched Pac-12 games a lot as well.

 

If Grigson drafts him, I will obviously be on board with it but I just feel the odds are less.

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Pernell McPhee played limited downs and was not drafted in round 1. You dont draft a limited down DE in round 1, IMO.

He was a rookie and started to see significant time towards the latter part of the season like most rookies do. McPhee collected 6.0 sacks as a rookie for the Ravens in 2011, plus 23 tackles and a forced fumble while playing in all 16 regular season games.

A lot of players drafted in the 1st last year was like that(Whitney Mercilus, Donte Hightower, Bruce Irvin was just a situational rusher until Clemons went down then he took over)

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I don't think Jones will be the pick, but if we did go this route I would be fine with it. He would immediately make our OLB's better because he demands attention. He DOES play the run well because as an inside man he can get into the backfield quickly and is versatile...so he could be a 3-down player. The more tape I see of him the more I like him.

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D. Jones is solid. That's as far as ill go as I'm banking on Teo being the pick at 24.

That can only be the desire of a Colts fan of ND or other personal reasons. Not sure what he could possibly add to our team at a significant delta to what we already have or could draft in a later round.

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That can only be the desire of a Colts fan of ND or other personal reasons. Not sure what he could possibly add to our team at a significant delta to what we already have or could draft in a later round.

 

Interior pass rush, plain and simple, where he'd be an immediate upgrade on everyone, including Redding, on our roster at the moment.

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That can only be the desire of a Colts fan of ND or other personal reasons. Not sure what he could possibly add to our team at a significant delta to what we already have or could draft in a later round.

I'm a Miami Hurricane fan. As for why I'm so enamored with Teo? I look at all of our games from last year and though there are several spots that could have used a shot in the arm, MLB stood out to me.

Freeman, unexpectedly, did a solid job

Angerer was hurt but when he came back, it was barely noticeable.

Conner is a thumper, I like him but he isn't the answer, especially considering he lost playing time to Moise Fokou.

Teo is one of the most sure fire players in this draft and I for the life of me cannot understand how people let 1 game erase 4 years of production. No way does Grigson and Pagano let Teo slip past 24.

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I'm a Miami Hurricane fan. As for why I'm so enamored with Teo? I look at all of our games from last year and though there are several spots that could have used a shot in the arm, MLB stood out to me.

Freeman, unexpectedly, did a solid job

Angerer was hurt but when he came back, it was barely noticeable.

Conner is a thumper, I like him but he isn't the answer, especially considering he lost playing time to Moise Fokou.

Teo is one of the most sure fire players in this draft and I for the life of me cannot understand how people let 1 game erase 4 years of production. No way does Grigson and Pagano let Teo slip past 24.

Biggest thing is the baggage.  Will he not be able to handle a stressful situation in the NFL?  Another thing is IMO there are about 40 guys I would take instead of him at #24.  I really dont think he is really that good.

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I'm a Miami Hurricane fan. As for why I'm so enamored with Teo? I look at all of our games from last year and though there are several spots that could have used a shot in the arm, MLB stood out to me.

Freeman, unexpectedly, did a solid job

Angerer was hurt but when he came back, it was barely noticeable.

Conner is a thumper, I like him but he isn't the answer, especially considering he lost playing time to Moise Fokou.

Teo is one of the most sure fire players in this draft and I for the life of me cannot understand how people let 1 game erase 4 years of production. No way does Grigson and Pagano let Teo slip past 24.

Well said and completely valid.  Teo may be just as you describe - a sure fire player of impact.  I don't put much stock in 1 bad game either, nor would I be surprised if the professionals agree with you in the end.  In the end, I think he falls out of the 1st Rd and maybe into the 3rd for 2 reasons.  First is talent - what made him special at ND simply might not stand out in the NFL.  Second is intangibles - the real story behind the story.  I don't know exactly what it is, but I am pretty sure we don't know it and I'd guess teams do or have drawn their own conclusions.  I think the catfishing fiasco hurt him way more than a DUI or Marijuana test would.

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Manusky seems to favor the type of system he coached under with Wade Phillips as defensive coordinator of the Chargers.

Here is a question a reporter asked Manusky about his defense:

Q: Are you taking a little of what you learned with Wade Phillips and a little of what you learned from Mike Nolan?

Manusky: “Yes, I’m trying to take what I learned with Wade Phillips and the same thing with Mike, and combine them together and try to get the best fit for the players we have here. Sometimes you don’t want to stick that round peg in that square hole. You try to fit it to what the players can do and what they can’t do.”

Here is the article he answers more questions about his defense when he was with the 49ers.

http://49ers.pressdemocrat.com/2008/11/injury-updates/manusky_says_3-4_defense_is_the_teams_best_fit/

 

That's from five years ago.

 

I do believe that our defense combines a lot of different elements, and it's overly simplistic to call it a 1-gap or a 2-gap front. But it does lean more toward being a 2-gap front, and I think it will lean more that way as we get more 2-gap players.

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Meh Justin Smith, Brent Kiesel, Tyson Jackson, Francios, Tyrone Crawford, Pernell Mcfee, Antonio Smith, Ray McDonald all play 3-4 DE at roughly the same size as Datone Jones

 

None of that means he's not a tweener. I just don't think he's a good fit for our defense, and would think other options at #24 would have a better chance to make an impact for us right away.

 

If we ran Wade Phillips defense, by the way, I'd think of Jones as more of an Antonio Smith kind of prospect. But even then, Smith was drafted to be a three-tech in a four man front, not a five-tech in a three man front. And Smith was a fifth rounder, not a first rounder. And I believe Smith has the motor to make up for a little lacking size, something that's hard to duplicate. I'm not sure Jones has that kind of mentality.

 

I could be wrong, but I don't think he's a great prospect for us. JMO.

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None of that means he's not a tweener. I just don't think he's a good fit for our defense, and would think other options at #24 would have a better chance to make an impact for us right away.

If we ran Wade Phillips defense, by the way, I'd think of Jones as more of an Antonio Smith kind of prospect. But even then, Smith was drafted to be a three-tech in a four man front, not a five-tech in a three man front. And Smith was a fifth rounder, not a first rounder. And I believe Smith has the motor to make up for a little lacking size, something that's hard to duplicate. I'm not sure Jones has that kind of mentality.

I could be wrong, but I don't think he's a great prospect for us. JMO.

Yea it was 5 years ago but you don't change your philosophy over night and can't change who you learned under, and saying you are taking things from what they did. He attacks gaps and blitzes just as much as Wade Phillips if not more, 2-gap defenses don't do that they are more of reading and reacting defense, every time you hear Pagano/Manusky and his defensive players all you hear is we are an attacking defense and we want to dictate what the offense does instead of sitting and reacting like you would be in a 2-gap, as far as the tweeter part I wasn't denying it I was just stating that he isn't too small to play 5-tech that you stated he was.
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Yea it was 5 years ago but you don't change your philosophy over night and can't change who you learned under, and saying you are taking things from what they did. He attacks gaps and blitzes just as much as Wade Phillips if not more, 2-gap defenses don't do that they are more of reading and reacting defense, every time you hear Pagano/Manusky and his defensive players all you hear is we are an attacking defense and we want to dictate what the offense does instead of sitting and reacting like you would be in a 2-gap, as far as the tweeter part I wasn't denying it I was just stating that he isn't too small to play 5-tech that you stated he was.

 

Five years isn't exactly overnight. Especially not when you've coached on two different staffs with two different head coaches since then.

 

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but I do think Pagano and Manusky are leaning more and more toward a 2-gap front. Attacking gaps and blitzing aren't strategies that are exclusive to a 1-gap front.

 

As for Jones, perhaps he's not absolutely too small to play five tech. But he's not of ideal size, which is something Grigson said the other day he and the rest of the staff do consider important along the defensive line. You can always find examples of successful players who aren't quite as big or as fast as the so-called prototype at their position, but that doesn't mean your team should ignore whatever the ideals are at that position.

 

I think Jones would be a decent pick for the Texans at #27. He'd be in that gap shooter role in a 3-4/5-2, 1-gap front. But I think he's more Raheem Brock than Antonio Smith. I don't think he'd be a good pick for us at #24. He'd kind of be a jack of all trades, master of none, a liability against the run, and not able to make up for it with consistent pass rush ability.

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Five years isn't exactly overnight. Especially not when you've coached on two different staffs with two different head coaches since then.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but I do think Pagano and Manusky are leaning more and more toward a 2-gap front. Attacking gaps and blitzing aren't strategies that are exclusive to a 1-gap front.

As for Jones, perhaps he's not absolutely too small to play five tech. But he's not of ideal size, which is something Grigson said the other day he and the rest of the staff do consider important along the defensive line. You can always find examples of successful players who aren't quite as big or as fast as the so-called prototype at their position, but that doesn't mean your team should ignore whatever the ideals are at that position.

I think Jones would be a decent pick for the Texans at #27. He'd be in that gap shooter role in a 3-4/5-2, 1-gap front. But I think he's more Raheem Brock than Antonio Smith. I don't think he'd be a good pick for us at #24. He'd kind of be a jack of all trades, master of none, a liability against the run, and not able to make up for it with consistent pass rush ability.

He still had the same philosophy in 2011:

San Diego Chargers

Head Coach: Norv Turner

Offensive Coordinator: Clarence Shelmon

Defensive Coordinator: Greg Manusky (replaces Ron Rivera)

"What to expect on defense: Greg Manusky coached under Wade Phillips as an assistant in San Diego before heading to the 49ers as the coordinator. He returns and implement the same aggressive, one gap 3-4 scheme that Phillips used in his tenure. Manusky doesn't use a lot of pre-snap misdirection, and favors constant pressure. The key, as with anything, is whether he has the horses in the secondary to play single coverage against the outside receivers."

http://subscribers.footballguys.com/2011/11wood_coaching.php

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He still had the same philosophy in 2011:

San Diego Chargers

Head Coach: Norv Turner

Offensive Coordinator: Clarence Shelmon

Defensive Coordinator: Greg Manusky (replaces Ron Rivera)

"What to expect on defense: Greg Manusky coached under Wade Phillips as an assistant in San Diego before heading to the 49ers as the coordinator. He returns and implement the same aggressive, one gap 3-4 scheme that Phillips used in his tenure. Manusky doesn't use a lot of pre-snap misdirection, and favors constant pressure. The key, as with anything, is whether he has the horses in the secondary to play single coverage against the outside receivers."

http://subscribers.footballguys.com/2011/11wood_coaching.php

What is evident by your quotes is that Manusky should have enough background to adapt well to the schemes Pagano wants to run - but the focus should be on what Pagano runs not Manusky. 1 gap in SD 2 gap in SF. He has a year here in Indy and what he has done here is most indicative of what we'll do in the future. He ran what Pagano ran in Baltimore minus some of the more exotic stuff they had personnel for. We were 2 gap on running downs.  I think that is what defines your base D.  Philosophically, this staff wants D lineman that can anchor.  Pagano says its a big man's game.  Grigson basically supports that with quotes about playing under tackles at DE last year.  On passing downs, the same definitions don't really apply, and that is probably true for most teams using multiple fronts.  

 

I'm sold on Datone Jones as a 1st Rd. talent, just not sold that he would be picked by our staff in the 1st.

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What is evident by your quotes is that Manusky should have enough background to adapt well to the schemes Pagano wants to run - but the focus should be on what Pagano runs not Manusky. 1 gap in SD 2 gap in SF. He has a year here in Indy and what he has done here is most indicative of what we'll do in the future. He ran what Pagano ran in Baltimore minus some of the more exotic stuff they had personnel for. We were 2 gap on running downs.  I think that is what defines your base D.  Philosophically, this staff wants D lineman that can anchor.  Pagano says its a big man's game.  Grigson basically supports that with quotes about playing under tackles at DE last year.  On passing downs, the same definitions don't really apply, and that is probably true for most teams using multiple fronts.  

 

I'm sold on Datone Jones as a 1st Rd. talent, just not sold that he would be picked by our staff in the 1st.

 

I agree!!!

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It is looking more like WR Cordarelle Patterson will be there at #24...do we take this 'project' at #24?

 

Rams have worked out DeAndre Hopkins twice and Vikes, if they don't land Tavon Austin, most likely will go for Cordarelle Patterson. With all WRs we have tried out, we have sent out enough smokescreens that I expect Vikes to go WR with their first of 2 first round picks.

 

Thus, I doubt he will be there. I do have the sneaky feeling that Sly Williams is going to be up there.

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It is looking more like WR Cordarelle Patterson will be there at #24...do we take this 'project' at #24?

He is my top wr honestly, Wouldn't blow a fuse if we took him but there will be a pass rusher there for the taking for us and if the stars align then Cooper as well

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INSIDE THE COLTS' DEFENSE

Defensively, the Colts are led by defensive coordinator Greg Manusky and much of the system appears to be what he ran in San Diego as well as what head coach Chuck Pagano ran in Baltimore as its defensive coordinator.

The front seven consists of the 3-4 and 4-3 fronts and much of it is from the under and over schemes, which were typically associated in the past with primarily pure 4-3 defenses. With NFL defenses continuing to rely heavily on the 1-gap philosophy, the implementation of the under and over fronts has been significant and crucial.

Further, the under front consists of a 1-technique (outside shoulder of center) nose tackle on the strong side (to the tight end side) of the formation while the 3-technique (outside shoulder of a guard) defensive tackle is on the weak side of the set.

Conversely, the over front has the 1-technique on the weak side of the formation while the strong side has the 3-technique.

The Colts have also gone to double 3-techniques, leaving the center and both A-gaps uncovered, on passing downs. This is another front that's been used quite a bit throughout the NFL, particularly on obvious passing downs such as third-and-long.

http://mobile.boston.com/art/40/sports/football/patriots/extra_points/2012/11/inside_the_matc_28?single=0&p=2

This is what we run majority of the time and its more 1 gap than 2 gap

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Rams have worked out DeAndre Hopkins twice and Vikes, if they don't land Tavon Austin, most likely will go for Cordarelle Patterson. With all WRs we have tried out, we have sent out enough smokescreens that I expect Vikes to go WR with their first of 2 first round picks.

 

Thus, I doubt he will be there. I do have the sneaky feeling that Sly Williams is going to be up there.

Williams would be perfect.

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Rams have worked out DeAndre Hopkins twice and Vikes, if they don't land Tavon Austin, most likely will go for Cordarelle Patterson. With all WRs we have tried out, we have sent out enough smokescreens that I expect Vikes to go WR with their first of 2 first round picks.

 

Thus, I doubt he will be there. I do have the sneaky feeling that Sly Williams is going to be up there.

Sly Willams.  I hope.

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INSIDE THE COLTS' DEFENSE

Defensively, the Colts are led by defensive coordinator Greg Manusky and much of the system appears to be what he ran in San Diego as well as what head coach Chuck Pagano ran in Baltimore as its defensive coordinator.

The front seven consists of the 3-4 and 4-3 fronts and much of it is from the under and over schemes, which were typically associated in the past with primarily pure 4-3 defenses. With NFL defenses continuing to rely heavily on the 1-gap philosophy, the implementation of the under and over fronts has been significant and crucial.

Further, the under front consists of a 1-technique (outside shoulder of center) nose tackle on the strong side (to the tight end side) of the formation while the 3-technique (outside shoulder of a guard) defensive tackle is on the weak side of the set.

Conversely, the over front has the 1-technique on the weak side of the formation while the strong side has the 3-technique.

The Colts have also gone to double 3-techniques, leaving the center and both A-gaps uncovered, on passing downs. This is another front that's been used quite a bit throughout the NFL, particularly on obvious passing downs such as third-and-long.

http://mobile.boston.com/art/40/sports/football/patriots/extra_points/2012/11/inside_the_matc_28?single=0&p=2

This is what we run majority of the time and its more 1 gap than 2 gap

Always thought we ran both, over the 1 tech and 0 with Johnson, I think the intention will be going more with the 1 moving forward but still using both, Johnson looked to struggle quite a bit at the 1 in my opinion compared to Tevasue which is why I believe Johnson is out of a job right now

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Always thought we ran both, over the 1 tech and 0 with Johnson, I think the intention will be going more with the 1 moving forward but still using both, Johnson looked to struggle quite a bit at the 1 in my opinion compared to Tevasue which is why I believe Johnson is out of a job right now

Yea Johnson was just out of position when it came to NT, he played hard though, gained weight and bought in to the best of his ability though
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Yea Johnson was just out of position when it came to NT, he played hard though, gained weight and bought in to the best of his ability though

Would have made a pretty solid backup NT if we were going to use the primarily 0 Tech in my opinion, Not sure if you have the Colts/Redskins game again but Johnson made Will Montgomery look silly quite a bit in that game playing the 0 tech

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INSIDE THE COLTS' DEFENSE

Defensively, the Colts are led by defensive coordinator Greg Manusky and much of the system appears to be what he ran in San Diego as well as what head coach Chuck Pagano ran in Baltimore as its defensive coordinator.

The front seven consists of the 3-4 and 4-3 fronts and much of it is from the under and over schemes, which were typically associated in the past with primarily pure 4-3 defenses. With NFL defenses continuing to rely heavily on the 1-gap philosophy, the implementation of the under and over fronts has been significant and crucial.

Further, the under front consists of a 1-technique (outside shoulder of center) nose tackle on the strong side (to the tight end side) of the formation while the 3-technique (outside shoulder of a guard) defensive tackle is on the weak side of the set.

Conversely, the over front has the 1-technique on the weak side of the formation while the strong side has the 3-technique.

The Colts have also gone to double 3-techniques, leaving the center and both A-gaps uncovered, on passing downs. This is another front that's been used quite a bit throughout the NFL, particularly on obvious passing downs such as third-and-long.

http://mobile.boston.com/art/40/sports/football/patriots/extra_points/2012/11/inside_the_matc_28?single=0&p=2

This is what we run majority of the time and its more 1 gap than 2 gap

 

Not really.  The guy who wrote that probably knows football, just like it is obvious you do.  However, he didn't very effectively describe Pagano's hybrid (not really his).  We do a lot of different things, so yes, you are right - some of the time.  But to characterize our Hybrid as more 1 than 2 gap is incorrect.  Really the 1 gap vs. 2 gap argument becomes a distraction.  The question that needs to be answered is are you philosophically trying to anchor on running downs or penetrate and disrupt?  We are clearly trying to anchor against the run and enable our LB's to make tackles.

http://www.baltimorebeatdown.com/2010/4/9/1412079/football-101-the-ravens-hybrid

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INSIDE THE COLTS' DEFENSE

Defensively, the Colts are led by defensive coordinator Greg Manusky and much of the system appears to be what he ran in San Diego as well as what head coach Chuck Pagano ran in Baltimore as its defensive coordinator.

The front seven consists of the 3-4 and 4-3 fronts and much of it is from the under and over schemes, which were typically associated in the past with primarily pure 4-3 defenses. With NFL defenses continuing to rely heavily on the 1-gap philosophy, the implementation of the under and over fronts has been significant and crucial.

Further, the under front consists of a 1-technique (outside shoulder of center) nose tackle on the strong side (to the tight end side) of the formation while the 3-technique (outside shoulder of a guard) defensive tackle is on the weak side of the set.

Conversely, the over front has the 1-technique on the weak side of the formation while the strong side has the 3-technique.

The Colts have also gone to double 3-techniques, leaving the center and both A-gaps uncovered, on passing downs. This is another front that's been used quite a bit throughout the NFL, particularly on obvious passing downs such as third-and-long.

http://mobile.boston.com/art/40/sports/football/patriots/extra_points/2012/11/inside_the_matc_28?single=0&p=2

This is what we run majority of the time and its more 1 gap than 2 gap

 

That's all great stuff, and I'm not saying any of it is wrong. But I do believe our staff when they say they want to run what our personnel allows them to run. And when we hired Pagano, it was always my hope that we'd go with more of a Wade Phillips style front because it fit our personnel better, and we didn't have the resources to completely transform our defensive front in one year.

 

I hope we keep a lot of the 1-gap stuff, because I personally prefer it. But it seems, based on comments and actions, that the team wants more prototypical 2-gap players in the defensive front. Grigson says he and the coaches want big bodies along the defensive line. They bring in a slew of big bodies to supplement our defensive front. He talked about how some of our 1-gap guys weren't great fits last year, but they fought and battled and gave it all they could. It just seems clear that they want to at least have the ability to favor a 2-gap scheme, in the name of being better against the run.

 

What you posted about Manusky is right as well. I'm not saying he's completely abandoned the 1-gap principles that he learned and coached in the past. But he's not the only coach to go from 1-gap to 2-gap, or vice versa, or back again. I think a good coach has a solid amount of both in his repertoire. A 1-gap can make up for not having a great nose tackle, while getting more out of a three-tech at potentially three different positions along the front (Antonio Smith / JJ Watt).

 

Remember, this is about Datone Jones. I just don't think he fits what the team seems to be trying to do, which is get bigger along the defensive line and play stronger and more principled against the run. He's an undersized gap shooter that doesn't have great pass rush ability, nor does he have the motor and aggressiveness to make up for being slightly undersized. He's not particularly stout at the point of attack, like Justin Smith or Brett Keisel. I think a good comparison is Ray McDonald, now that I think about it, but I think McDonald has more motor. And he was a third rounder for a 1-gap defense. I'm not sure why we'd make him a first rounder for a 1-gap/2-gap hybrid defense.

 

Just to be clear, I don't dislike Jones. I just don't think he fits what Grigson and Pagano have laid out as their vision for our defensive front, and as such, even though he's a solid pro prospect, it would seem strange for us to take him in the first round. That's all I'm saying.

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Not really.  The guy who wrote that probably knows football, just like it is obvious you do.  However, he didn't very effectively describe Pagano's hybrid (not really his).  We do a lot of different things, so yes, you are right - some of the time.  But to characterize our Hybrid as more 1 than 2 gap is incorrect.  Really the 1 gap vs. 2 gap argument becomes a distraction.  The question that needs to be answered is are you philosophically trying to anchor on running downs or penetrate and disrupt?  We are clearly trying to anchor against the run and enable our LB's to make tackles.

http://www.baltimorebeatdown.com/2010/4/9/1412079/football-101-the-ravens-hybrid

 

I've had that bookmarked for a while. Lots of great stuff in there. "Hybrid" might sound like a cute cop-out, but it really is the best way to describe our defense (and a lot of other team's defenses as well these days). We use several different concepts along the front -- over, under, 1-gap, 2-gap, etc. Trying to categorize it as one or the other is a waste of energy.

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