Coby Fleener

[JoKeR]

Joker...

Not saying you're wrong, but do you have a link I can see for the reference to Coby and back surgery? I've just searched and can't find anything that says that. And I don't recall that.

Would love to see that reference.

Thanks...

http://www.profootballweekly.com/prospects/player/coby-fleener-82/

Very lean build with little bulk. Average physicality and core strength — underpowered blocker. Back injury has affected lifting and requires close scrutiny —

Subtle reference, let me dig more because I brought this up around draft time. The surgery might have been way back in high school.

[NewColtsFan]

http://www.profootballweekly.com/prospects/player/coby-fleener-82/

Very lean build with little bulk. Average physicality and core strength — underpowered blocker. Back injury has affected lifting and requires close scrutiny —

Subtle reference, let me dig more because I brought this up around draft time. The surgery might have been way back in high school.

 

No need to dig anymore.

 

You and 'the Cardinal' but sited Pro Football Weekly.     That's good enough for me.

 

Guess the surgery would've been around Jan of 2010.   Interesting, that I don't recall it.    And it certainly didn't seem to bother him in his senior year at Stanford in 2011.      I don't think it was a factor in his play this year.

 

But thanks for finding that.    Good to have the 411.    

[HtownColt]

Don't know what to think about Fleener as of now. He has been pretty much invisible his rookie year. I'll just wait until midseason next year to give my opinion on Fleener

[HtownColt]

Why do we always compare Fleener to Gronk and Graham, arguably the best tight ends in the game? By that logic,

where are the:

Why isn't Vic Ballard as good as Adrian Peterson, threads

-Or-

Why isn't Hilton as good as AJ Green or Megatron, or Marvin Harrison (closer to his size).

For whatever reason, people love to pick on Fleener and in some ways he's curesed that he has measurables similar to Gronk and Graham, yet he's just a rookie playing in a different system--a system that didn't maximize his strengths.

He isn't even the best tight end on his team let alone comparable to Gronk and Graham

[gacker65]

Fleener needs to step-up his game this next season.  WCO has the TE blocking as well as short routes.

[JoKeR]

No need to dig anymore.

 

You and 'the Cardinal' but sited Pro Football Weekly.     That's good enough for me.

 

Guess the surgery would've been around Jan of 2010.   Interesting, that I don't recall it.    And it certainly didn't seem to bother him in his senior year at Stanford in 2011.      I don't think it was a factor in his play this year.

 

But thanks for finding that.    Good to have the 411.    

Right, his back is fine now but still don't expect him to be a great blocker. He's a better blocker up field when he's upright and running.

[Indyfan4life]

I think Fleener will do much better next season with the new offense we're going to run. Allen might struggle some now though.

[Warhawk]

Historically speaking, rookie TEs very rarely produce at an elite level in terms of receiving, even ones that turn out great.  Here's some notable TE's rookie years (rec/yds/tds) - all guys (other than Fleener) who have put up elite-level production (for a TE anyway) in later seasons:

 

Fleener: 26/281/2

 

Graham: 31/356/5

Gronkowski: 42/546/10

Gonzalez: 33/368/2

Clark: 29/340/1

Gates: 24/389/2

Davis: 20/265/3

Heap: 16/206/1

Witten: 35/347/1

Newsome: 38/589/2

Casper: 4/26/3 (and only had 5 catches his second year)

Sharpe: 7/99/1 (and only 22/322/1 his second year)

Smith: 28/445/2

Carmichael: 20/288/0

Coates: 10/95/1

Cooley: 37/314/6

Crumpler: 25/330/3

Winslow (the good one): 25/255/2

McMichael: 39/485/4

Wycheck: 16/113/0 (and he regressed his second year, believe it or not)

Jay Novacek had 2 catches total in his first 2 seasons.

 

Here's a few relative exceptions to the rule:

Mackey: 35/726/7 (approximately his 3rd or 4th best season, and it's fairly close)

Ditka: 56/1076/12 (by far his best season)

Shockey: 74/894/2 (best reception and yardage totals of his career)

 

So basically, in context, Fleener's season isn't really cause for concern, since TEs who end up being elite receivers very rarely have a rookie season that is even in the same ballpark statistically as they do later in their careers.

[NewColtsFan]

I think Fleener will do much better next season with the new offense we're going to run. Allen might struggle some now though.

 

Allen won't struggle more.   If anything, the new offense will target him more often!    This should be a two-tight end offense.

 

I'd expect 100 catches between Allen and Fleener next year.   That's up from 71 for the two of them this year.    This will be a move the chains and control the ball type of offense. 

 

The other team can't score if they don't have the ball.     

 

Well,  at least, that's the theory....

[Indyfan4life]

Allen won't struggle more.   If anything, the new offense will target him more often!    This should be a two-tight end offense.

 

I'd expect 100 catches between Allen and Fleener next year.   That's up from 71 for the two of them this year.    This will be a move the chains and control the ball type of offense. 

 

The other team can't score if they don't have the ball.     

 

Well,  at least, that's the theory....

I hope they both excel in the new offense. I just viewed Allen as the down field threat. It may of just been Fleener struggling with the type of offense he was in and the injures he sustained. I hope they become a Gronk/Hernandez combo next season.

[DelgadoColtsFan]

I can see the comparison when he was coming out the Draft but i'm not the type to compare ppl...they are both different and skilled players at their Position....with Allen having a great rookie year, i tend to believe Fleener will come a long Great for us next year since he does provide major problems with his size and skill.......Gronk is just an all around beast man lol but Fleener can be a majorrr threat

 

my first post btw lol heyyy colts nation

[rittdk01]

I wasn't discouraged by Fleener's numbers (or lack of) so much as his style of play.  He didn't look comfortable all year and dropped way too many passes.  I wouldn't have even noticed him if he weren't so big and drafted so high.  Allen showed great promise this year Fleener not so much.

 

And a version of Gronkowski is exactly who the Colts thought they were getting when they drafted Fleener.  They wanted a huge player that would be a mismatch and got two tight ends to imitate the Pats.  Arians didn't run the offense at all like the Pats though.  The new o coordinator plays to Fleener's skillset a lot more so we will see.

[Superman]

I wasn't discouraged by Fleener's numbers (or lack of) so much as his style of play.  He didn't look comfortable all year and dropped way too many passes.  I wouldn't have even noticed him if he weren't so big and drafted so high.  Allen showed great promise this year Fleener not so much.

 

And a version of Gronkowski is exactly who the Colts thought they were getting when they drafted Fleener.  They wanted a huge player that would be a mismatch and got two tight ends to imitate the Pats.  Arians didn't run the offense at all like the Pats though.  The new o coordinator plays to Fleener's skillset a lot more so we will see.

 

I've never seen any scout or personnel guy compare Fleener to Gronkowski. That sounds like a Bleacher Report comment.

 

I do agree that Fleener didn't seem comfortable most of the season. I don't know if it's reasonable to blame that on his injuries, or if it's a rookie thing, or if he just doesn't have that "it" factor that other players have. But I'm not overly concerned about him or his impact. I think the offensive changes we're making are going to benefit our tight ends as much as any other position, because Arians called on the tight ends to stay in and block a lot.

 

The physical tools are there, but he's not going to be a big time blocker. He has the tools to be a big time pass catcher, though, and if we nurture his talent and help him develop the skills he needs, we'll have a really good player on our hands.

[a06cc]

Coby looked afraid when he was out playing. First year will do that to you though. Not worried, he'll be fine this season coming up. Dwayne Allen is a better tight end though.

[FalseStart]

To early to give an opinion... Allen's playing like he should, now we have to wait an see for Fleener.

[The Peytonator]

I don't want to get ahead of myself here, but I foresee a pretty formidable TE duo for the next 8 years. We all know how Allen looked, but I feel like a lot of us are underrating Fleener's blocking ability. I honestly thought he looked better as a blocker than a receiver. Next year he'll probably be a lot looser, more used to the speed of the NFL, and in a more comfortable offensive style.

 

I'd still have rather seen Cordy Glenn in the 2nd, but it's just one man's opinion, and I do feel like the Fleener/Allen duo will one day be thought of as the best in the league.

[gacker65]

I don't want to get ahead of myself here, but I foresee a pretty formidable TE duo for the next 8 years. We all know how Allen looked, but I feel like a lot of us are underrating Fleener's blocking ability. I honestly thought he looked better as a blocker than a receiver. Next year he'll probably be a lot looser, more used to the speed of the NFL, and in a more comfortable offensive style.

 

I'd still have rather seen Cordy Glenn in the 2nd, but it's just one man's opinion, and I do feel like the Fleener/Allen duo will one day be thought of as the best in the league.

I do not see a duo until Fleener plays like a TE and not a small Slot Receiver.  The WCO uses the TEs to block as well as in passing routes. At Stanford, Fleener was used sparingly as a blocker, so it is time to for Fleener to man up and become the TE we all hope he will be.

 

I agree about us taking Glen over Fleener.

[TKnight24]

I think Fleener will do much better next season with the new offense we're going to run. Allen might struggle some now though.

Allen is the better blocker between him & Fleener. He won't struggle. It's a 2 TE Offense as NewColtsFan stated. Allen is use to be targeted a lot. He was the man with the plan at Clemson as they used him all over the field. He'll be fine, might even excel beyond some's expectations

[hawkeyes]

I an not ready to totally let Fleeners play this past season slide, but I will give him a second shot at proving himself - heck Ill even give him 3 games!    IF he hasn't shown any legit value in the first three games of next season I'll have no problem going with my first instinct - BUST!

[Indyfan4life]

Allen is the better blocker between him & Fleener. He won't struggle. It's a 2 TE Offense as NewColtsFan stated. Allen is use to be targeted a lot. He was the man with the plan at Clemson as they used him all over the field. He'll be fine, might even excel beyond some's expectations

Guess we'll find out!

[GoColts8818]

Honestly when you factor in Fleener played four less games than Allen this past year the number gap between Allen and Fleener isn't that great.

 

Coby caught 26 of 48 passes for 281 yards averaging 10.8 yards a catch with two TDs for 14 first downs.

 

Dwayne caught 45 of 66 passes for 521 yards averaging 11.6 yards a catch with three TDs for 30 first downs.

 

If you break it down Coby caught about 2.2 passes a game for about 23 yards a game while Dwayne caught about 2.8 passes a game for 43 yards a game. 

 

Dwayne gave the Colts a little bit more production per game but all and all the gap isn't as large as some fans make it seem like.  If you listen some talk you would think Dwayne was on the verge of going to the Pro-Bowl and Coby didn't look like he belonged in the NFL.

 

All and all I don't think the gap is that large.  I do think Coby needs to work a little more on catching passes that hit him in the hand but if he gets that fixed I think his production is going to be almost if not surpass what Dwayne was doing. 

[HtownColt]

Honestly when you factor in Fleener played four less games than Allen this past year the number gap between Allen and Fleener isn't that great.

Coby caught 26 of 48 passes for 281 yards averaging 10.8 yards a catch with two TDs for 14 first downs.

Dwayne caught 45 of 66 passes for 521 yards averaging 11.6 yards a catch with three TDs for 30 first downs.

If you break it down Coby caught about 2.2 passes a game for about 23 yards a game while Dwayne caught about 2.8 passes a game for 43 yards a game.

Dwayne gave the Colts a little bit more production per game but all and all the gap isn't as large as some fans make it seem like. If you listen some talk you would think Dwayne was on the verge of going to the Pro-Bowl and Coby didn't look like he belonged in the NFL.

All and all I don't think the gap is that large. I do think Coby needs to work a little more on catching passes that hit him in the hand but if he gets that fixed I think his production is going to be almost if not surpass what Dwayne was doing.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you clearly didn't watch the games and is going solely on ESPN stats because Allen did everything a tight end needed to do to become a complete tight end and every down tight end. And Allen was on the verge of the pro bowl I think he finished 4th in TE or something like that. You even broke it down for us as far as pass catching goes, Fleener with 2.2 catches a game for 23yrds and Allen with 2.8 catches a game for 43 yards. Now I'm no math wiz but isn't that almost double the yards with .6 more catches a game

[Dustin]

Honestly when you factor in Fleener played four less games than Allen this past year the number gap between Allen and Fleener isn't that great.

 

Coby caught 26 of 48 passes for 281 yards averaging 10.8 yards a catch with two TDs for 14 first downs.

 

Dwayne caught 45 of 66 passes for 521 yards averaging 11.6 yards a catch with three TDs for 30 first downs.

 

If you break it down Coby caught about 2.2 passes a game for about 23 yards a game while Dwayne caught about 2.8 passes a game for 43 yards a game. 

 

Dwayne gave the Colts a little bit more production per game but all and all the gap isn't as large as some fans make it seem like.  If you listen some talk you would think Dwayne was on the verge of going to the Pro-Bowl and Coby didn't look like he belonged in the NFL.

 

All and all I don't think the gap is that large.  I do think Coby needs to work a little more on catching passes that hit him in the hand but if he gets that fixed I think his production is going to be almost if not surpass what Dwayne was doing. 

 

Allen was arguably the best blocking TE in the league last year.

[GoColts8818]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you clearly didn't watch the games and is going solely on ESPN stats because Allen did everything a tight end needed to do to become a complete tight end and every down tight end. And Allen was on the verge of the pro bowl I think he finished 4th in TE or something like that. You even broke it down for us as far as pass catching goes, Fleener with 2.2 catches a game for 23yrds and Allen with 2.8 catches a game for 43 yards. Now I'm no math wiz but isn't that almost double the yards with .6 more catches a game

I watched every game this past year thank you very much so why don't you save the "you didn't watch every game" stuff.  Just because I didn't see if the way you did doesn't mean I didn't watch it.  What I saw was a guy in Allen that played really well and Fleener who did about what I would expect a rookie tightend to do.  I will fully admit Allen did a better job than Fleener did.  All I am saying, and using numbers to back my point up, is that the gap isn't as big as some fans make it seem like. 

[GoColts8818]

Allen was arguably the best blocking TE in the league last year.

Never said Allen wasn't.  I think Allen had a great rookie season for a tightend.  I just don't think Fleener was as bad as some people make him seem like he was at times.

[HtownColt]

I watched every game this past year thank you very much so why don't you save the "you didn't watch every game" stuff. Just because I didn't see if the way you did doesn't mean I didn't watch it. What I saw was a guy in Allen that played really well and Fleener who did about what I would expect a rookie tightend to do. I will fully admit Allen did a better job than Fleener did. All I am saying, and using numbers to back my point up, is that the gap isn't as big as some fans make it seem like.

If you say so

[Dustin]

Never said Allen wasn't. I think Allen had a great rookie season for a tightend. I just don't think Fleener was as bad as some people make him seem like he was at times.

I was addressing your part about scoffing at the idea that Allen was on the verge of a pro bowl. If voters actually took into account blocking then he would have got in. He was the second best TE in the league this year.

[Carlos Danger]

Allen won't struggle more.   If anything, the new offense will target him more often!    This should be a two-tight end offense.

 

I'd expect 100 catches between Allen and Fleener next year.   That's up from 71 for the two of them this year.    This will be a move the chains and control the ball type of offense. 

 

The other team can't score if they don't have the ball.     

 

Well,  at least, that's the theory....

If not three...

I have to agree with 8818 that Fleener looked like a typical 2nd round rookie TE with potential... Its not his fault that Allen was a rookie stud or that everyone expected him to produce instantly because of his relationship with Luck. (not to mention that he got hurt) He was still a rookie who had to learn a new offense in a new city ect.

 

I think that Fleener needs to add some bulk, even if it slightly reduces his speed... might be difficult for him if his back truly limits his weight lifting... Other than that, I'm not in panic mode.. Talented TEs usually improve greatly after their rookie years. Allen is better, but he was better before the draft as well.

[GoColts8818]

I was addressing your part about scoffing at the idea that Allen was on the verge of a pro bowl. If voters actually took into account blocking then he would have got in. He was the second best TE in the league this year.

He was not on the verge of going to the Pro-Bowl.  Allen had a great year for a rookie but he was not a pro-bowl Tightend.  It takes a lot more than being a great blocker to get to the Pro-Bowl as a tightend.  I think being able to block is important but it's not some trump card.  I would agree Allen is a very good blocking tightend but he has to improve the other areaes of his game (which I think he can do) to become a pro-bowl tightend. 

[Dustin]

He was not on the verge of going to the Pro-Bowl. Allen had a great year for a rookie but he was not a pro-bowl Tightend. It takes a lot more than being a great blocker to get to the Pro-Bowl as a tightend. I think being able to block is important but it's not some trump card. I would agree Allen is a very good blocking tightend but he has to improve the other areaes of his game (which I think he can do) to become a pro-bowl tightend.

Blocking is just as important as receiving. Allen was a great receiver and one of the best blockers in the league. I mean did you see who got in over him? His numbers were close to those of Gresham's but Gresham is nowhere near the blocker that Allen is. He should have easily made it in this year.

[GoColts8818]

Blocking is just as important as receiving. Allen was a great receiver and one of the best blockers in the league. I mean did you see who got in over him? His numbers were close to those of Gresham's but Gresham is nowhere near the blocker that Allen is. He should have easily made it in this year.

Allen was a very good tightend for a rookie but his numbers are not as good as the best tightends in the league when it comes to receiving.  He has room to grow in that area.  Also, unless you come in with as much fan fare as Luck did it's nearly impossible for a rookie to get the support he needs to make the Pro-Bowl as a rookie.  That's why they say you normally don't make a Pro-Bowl till two years after you earn it and you end up staying about two years after you stop deserving to be there. 

 

Also Gresham had 21 more catches than Allen over 200 yards more than Allen and nearly twice as many TDs.  In other words about the gap Allen had on Fleener Gresham had on Allen.  So people can't have it both ways.  If the gap between Allen and Fleener is HUGE the gap between Greshman and Allen can't be thought of as small.

 

Personally, I happen to think that Fleener is closer to Allen than most think and I will gladly admit Allen had the better season but I would also say the same about Allen and Gresham.  Gresham still had a better season.  Gresham also only made it as alternate.  The two starting tightends who got voted there were Gronk and Heath Miller

 

Gronk missed five games and still had more catches, more yards, and almost four times as many TDs than Allen did. 

 

Heath Miller had 71 catches for 816 yards and 8 TDs.

 

While I agree Allen's numbers were extremely good for a rookie his numbers are not that good yet.  I would agree they are within reach for Allen if improves the way I think he can and will and I wouldn't say Allen is terrible compared to others players either.  I would say they had a better season and deserved the Pro-Bowl trip more than Allen.  When looking at Fleener and Allen people try to talk about Allen like he is SO much better than Fleener.  He really isn't which is all I am saying.  I am not really taking any kind of shot at Allen.  I am more or less giving Fleener credit for being better than most thought.  With that said I would agree Allen had the better season of the two but the gap isn't what people try to make it.  If you want to say Allen is a fringe Pro-Bowl player I would say you are reaching some but fine that's not really the point I am getting at.  I am saying Fleener isn't the player that doesn't belong in the league like some try to make him out to be when compared to Allen.  He's closer to Allen than most would say.  So it's not so much scoffing at Allen it's giving Fleener credit for having a decent rookie year which most people don't like to do.  I have thought all along Fleener's biggest problem is that he had an average rookie season sandwhiched between two guys in Luck and Allen who had better rookie season than most rookies do so of course that is going to make a guy like Fleener's average season look bad in comparison.  I am just saying it wasn't as bad as most make it seem like. 

 

Also, while blocking is important it's not what people vote for the Pro-Bowl on.  If we are going on blocking even as good as Allen was the best tightend on our roster was Saunders.   Allen's biggest strength is that he can do so many things, he can block, he can play fullback if needed, there was even talk that he could have played runningback had Ballard not been able to come back in the Titans game, and he's a tightend.  He's solid at all those thing and in some case better than solid at those things.  I'll give him credit for that and I like Allen a lot.  With that said, the gap between Allen and Fleener isn't nearly as much as some make it out to be.  That's all I am saying. 

[Dustin]

 

 

Allen was a very good tightend for a rookie but his numbers are not as good as the best tightends in the league when it comes to receiving.  He has room to grow in that area.  Also, unless you come in with as much fan fare as Luck did it's nearly impossible for a rookie to get the support he needs to make the Pro-Bowl as a rookie.  That's why they say you normally don't make a Pro-Bowl till two years after you earn it and you end up staying about two years after you stop deserving to be there. 

 

Also Gresham had 21 more catches than Allen over 200 yards more than Allen and nearly twice as many TDs.  In other words about the gap Allen had on Fleener Gresham had on Allen.  So people can't have it both ways.  If the gap between Allen and Fleener is HUGE the gap between Greshman and Allen can't be thought of as small.

.

 

Gresham was targeted 94 times and made 64 catches. Allen was targeted 66 times and made 45 catches. That's a 68% catch rate for Gresham and a 68% catch rate for Allen. Dwayne also averaged more yards per catch and had only 3 less first downs on about 30 less targets. So needless to say he had higher percentage of important plays than Gresham did. 

 

And you are seriously downplaying the blocking aspect of the tight-end. When running towards Allen's side we averaged about 5 yards per carry. Compared to a little over 4 yards when the Bengals ran towards Gresham.

 

And my point wasn't that he was better than Gronk because that would be ridiculous. My point was that he should have been one of the alternates though. Blocking may not be the reasons people vote for the pro bowl and that's one of the reasons that the Pro Bowl is a joke and meaningless. People look at the names and vote strictly on that. It's the reason Saturday was on the team even though he got benched during the regular season.

 

And yeah I'll agree the Fleener will probably be a better receiver than Allen in the long run, but if I had a choice I'd take the above average receiver that was one of the best blockers in the league over and very good receiver who can't block any day of the week.

[GoColts8818]

 

 

.

 

Gresham was targeted 94 times and made 64 catches. Allen was targeted 66 times and made 45 catches. That's a 68% catch rate for Gresham and a 68% catch rate for Allen. Dwayne also averaged more yards per catch and had only 3 less first downs on about 30 less targets. So needless to say he had higher percentage of important plays than Gresham did. 

 

And you are seriously downplaying the blocking aspect of the tight-end. When running towards Allen's side we averaged about 5 yards per carry. Compared to a little over 4 yards when the Bengals ran towards Gresham.

 

And my point wasn't that he was better than Gronk because that would be ridiculous. My point was that he should have been one of the alternates though. Blocking may not be the reasons people vote for the playoffs and that's one of the reasons that the Pro Bowl is a joke and meaningless. People look at the names and vote strictly on that. It's the reason Saturday was on the team even though he got benched during the regular season.

 

And yeah I'll agree the Fleener will probably be a better receiver than Allen in the long run, but if I had a choice I'd take the above average receiver that was one of the best blockers in the league over and very good receiver who can't block any day of the week.

That's like a saying a QB was 70 of 100 on passes while the other one was 7 of 10 (granted not to that extreme) and saying both had a 70% completion percentage.  While they both did one was more impressive than the other because he had a larger sampling size. 

 

I am not downplaying it I am just telling you people don't vote on it when it comes to the Pro-Bowl.  I don't know how many times I said it's important and I like that Allen does it and I do think it adds to Allen's value.  People don't vote on it because there are no stats for it so the only way you can track it is to watch it and frankly be looking for it.  The vast majority of fans who vote on the Pro-Bowl don't follow tightends that closely to use that to vote on it. 

 

Again, my main point was not to mock the idea of Allen being a Pro-Bowl level player.  If you honestly want to stick to that fine that's not what I am talking about.  I am saying if you put Allen at that level Fleener wasn't a level where he looks like he shouldn't be in the NFL which is how some around here talk about him.  I am saying Fleener was closer to Allen in that regard.  Again, I am not going after Allen I am talking up Fleener and saying he wasn't as bad as some act like he was.  With that said I fully admit Allen still had the better season. 

 

The whole reason I brought up Gronk was he was the pro-bowl tightend along with Miller they ended up not going.  So comparing Allen's numbers to Grishman's doesn't really show what the pro-bowl level is for tightends in the AFC.  Gronk and Miller set that standard.  So if you think Allen was a Pro-Bowl level tightend Gronk and Miller are who you should be comparing him too because they were the guys who got voted there. 

 

I have no way of knowing if Fleener will be better than Allen or not.  I am just saying Fleener wasn't as bad this past year as some make him out to be.  I could easily see Allen end up having the better career.  I just don't think Fleener was the disappointment that some seem to think he was.  Like I said before I think Fleener had about your average year for a rookie tightend that missed four games and frankly had he not missed those four games his numbers would have probably been about where Allen's were.  So I just don't think the gap is as great as some think it is. 

 

With that said Fleener is not the blocker that Allen is so even if Fleener did put up the same numbers as Allen did I would go with Allen having the better season based on that. 

 

Also for years the Colts had Ben Utecht who was very good at blocking yet fans and the team never valued him as much as they did Dallas Clark.  So blocking only takes you so far.  With that said Allen has already proven to be better at pass catching than Utecht ever was so I do think Allen will have a better career than he did. 

[ColtsLegacy]

Allen was a very good tightend for a rookie but his numbers are not as good as the best tightends in the league when it comes to receiving.  He has room to grow in that area.  Also, unless you come in with as much fan fare as Luck did it's nearly impossible for a rookie to get the support he needs to make the Pro-Bowl as a rookie.  That's why they say you normally don't make a Pro-Bowl till two years after you earn it and you end up staying about two years after you stop deserving to be there. 

 

Also Gresham had 21 more catches than Allen over 200 yards more than Allen and nearly twice as many TDs.  In other words about the gap Allen had on Fleener Gresham had on Allen.  So people can't have it both ways.  If the gap between Allen and Fleener is HUGE the gap between Greshman and Allen can't be thought of as small.

 

 

Allen graded as the 2nd best TE overall in the NFL, according to PFF (+19.1 overall, +4.9 pass, +10.1 run block), while the Pro Bowler Jermaine Gresham graded out at 62 of 62 qualifying TEs (-16.4 overall, -2.3 pass, -9.5 run block). So, yeah, the gap between Allen and Gresham is huge, in Allen's favor.

 

I agree that Fleener has an upside and I expect him to grow into a very good player but Allen was clearly far and away the better rookie, outperforming what anyone could have expected from him right out of the gate. I'm excited to watch them both for years to come, I think they'll both prosper in our new more TE friendly offense.

 

Edit: Fleener is 28 of 62 TEs on PFF (+1.7 overall, -2.4 pass, +2.7 run block - blocked better than anyone wants to give credit).

[GoColts8818]

Allen graded as the 2nd best TE overall in the NFL, according to PFF (+19.1 overall, +4.9 pass, +10.1 run block), while the Pro Bowler Jermaine Gresham graded out at 62 of 62 qualifying TEs (-16.4 overall, -2.3 pass, -9.5 run block). So, yeah, the gap between Allen and Gresham is huge, in Allen's favor.

When looking at blocking stats only.  I never said Allen wasn't a good blocker.  In fact I have said I think he is a good blocker and if that didn't get threw let me say it again, Allen is a VERY good blocker.  However, while blocking is extremely important it is not what people vote for the Pro-Bowl on.  They vote for it on offensive stats.  That is also what is becoming valued by NFL teams which is why you see tightends that put up great offensive numbers highly paid over guys who are blockers.  Allen's offensive numbers aren't as good as the Pro-Bowl tightends yet.  So while I think Allen has a very good season for any tightend let alone a rookie he did not have a Pro-Bowl season.  With that said if people really want to say he was a Pro-Bowl level player fine that's not the main point I am trying to get at. 

I agree that Fleener has an upside and I expect him to grow into a very good player but Allen was clearly far and away the better rookie, outperforming what anyone could have expected from him right out of the gate. I'm excited to watch them both for years to come, I think they'll both prosper in our new more TE friendly offense.

 

Edit: Fleener is 28 of 62 TEs on PFF (+1.7 overall, -2.4 pass, +2.7 run block - blocked better than anyone wants to give credit).

Here this addresses the main point I am trying to get at.  Fleener had a better season than most give him credit for.  Again, if people want to say Allen is a Pro-Bowl level player all I am saying is that Fleener wouldn't be a scrub who shouldn't be in the NFL in comparison to Allen which is how some talk about Fleener.  Truth be told while Allen had a better season than Fleener the gap isn't that big.  Just like I would say the gap between Allen and the Pro-Bowl tightends isn't that big, although in both cases it's clear that Allen had a better season than Fleener and the Pro-Bowlers had a better season than Allen.  Again, I am NOT trying to attack Allen who I like a great deal.  I am trying to stick up for Fleener. 

[ColtsLegacy]

When looking at blocking stats only.  I never said Allen wasn't a good blocker.  In fact I have said I think he is a good blocker and if that didn't get threw let me say it again, Allen is a VERY good blocker.  However, while blocking is extremely important it is not what people vote for the Pro-Bowl on.  They vote for it on offensive stats.  That is also what is becoming valued by NFL teams which is why you see tightends that put up great offensive numbers highly paid over guys who are blockers.  Allen's offensive numbers aren't as good as the Pro-Bowl tightends yet.  So while I think Allen has a very good season for any tightend let alone a rookie he did not have a Pro-Bowl season.  With that said if people really want to say he was a Pro-Bowl level player fine that's not the main point I am trying to get at. 

Here this addresses the main point I am trying to get at.  Fleener had a better season than most give him credit for.  Again, if people want to say Allen is a Pro-Bowl level player all I am saying is that Fleener wouldn't be a scrub who shouldn't be in the NFL in comparison to Allen which is how some talk about Fleener.  Truth be told while Allen had a better season than Fleener the gap isn't that big.  Just like I would say the gap between Allen and the Pro-Bowl tightends isn't that big, although in both cases it's clear that Allen had a better season than Fleener and the Pro-Bowlers had a better season than Allen.  Again, I am NOT trying to attack Allen who I like a great deal.  I am trying to stick up for Fleener. 

 

First off, those stats weren't blocking stats only, Dwayne Allen rated 2nd best TE overall - pass game, blocking game, everything.

 

Also, I couldn't give a % about the Pro Bowl, it's a joke... but...

 

... since you keep bringing up Pro Bowl caliber TEs vs Allen and Allen vs Fleener let's discuss it. To the bolded, Allen 2nd rated TE overall... not just blocking, overall...(+19.1 overall, +4.9 pass receiving/routes not blocking, +10.1 run block) compared to Gresham (Pro Bowler) worst rated qualifying TE overall (-16.4 overall, -2.3 pass receiving/routes not blocking, -9.5 run block) and then we have Fleener  (+1.7 overall, -2.4 pass receiving/routes not blocking, +2.7 run block). These numbers are compiled by PFF from watching every single snap by each player during the season our Pro Bowler is a -16.4 overall compared to Allen's +19.1 that's a whopping +35.5 overall for Allen, sure maybe the stats for Gresham look better than Allen's but there are many variables that go into that. Also, Fleener to Allen, +1.7 to +19.1, a +17.4 for Allen, this is also a large gap in play during the season, again the stats may not show it but it's there and I think most Colts fans could see the difference.

 

Again, I think Fleener will be great in time and he had an OK rookie TE year but Allen really out played him with a fantastic season and if the Pro Bowl wasn't a name game then he should have made it over the worst rated TE (according to PFF), at least someone should have made it over him.

 

If you want to ignore PFF's analysis that's fine but I find they're pretty damn good.

[Hans Moleman]

Fleener's season was about what most rookie TE's produce (even the ones who eventually become great). I think Allen outperforming expectations has skewed our perception of what is reasonable to expect from a rookie TE. Fleener didn't perform nearly as bad as people say, and he showed steady improvement in the receiving and blocking game all year long. There's no reason to expect that improvement to stop; he's not near his peak yet.

 

Patience, people. 

[GoColts8818]

First off, those stats weren't blocking stats only, Dwayne Allen rated 2nd best TE overall - pass game, blocking game, everything.

 

Also, I couldn't give a % about the Pro Bowl, it's a joke... but...

 

... since you keep bringing up Pro Bowl caliber TEs vs Allen and Allen vs Fleener let's discuss it. To the bolded, Allen 2nd rated TE overall... not just blocking, overall...(+19.1 overall, +4.9 pass receiving/routes not blocking, +10.1 run block) compared to Gresham (Pro Bowler) worst rated qualifying TE overall (-16.4 overall, -2.3 pass receiving/routes not blocking, -9.5 run block) and then we have Fleener  (+1.7 overall, -2.4 pass receiving/routes not blocking, +2.7 run block). These numbers are compiled by PFF from watching every single snap by each player during the season our Pro Bowler is a -16.4 overall compared to Allen's +19.1 that's a whopping +35.5 overall for Allen, sure maybe the stats for Gresham look better than Allen's but there are many variables that go into that. Also, Fleener to Allen, +1.7 to +19.1, a +17.4 for Allen, this is also a large gap in play during the season, again the stats may not show it but it's there and I think most Colts fans could see the difference.

 

Again, I think Fleener will be great in time and he had an OK rookie TE year but Allen really out played him with a fantastic season and if the Pro Bowl wasn't a name game then he should have made it over the worst rated TE (according to PFF), at least someone should have made it over him.

 

If you want to ignore PFF's analysis that's fine but I find they're pretty damn good.

For the last time my point was NOT, NEVER HAS BEEN, and IS NOT to talk about if Allen was a Pro-Bowl level tightend or try to knock Allen in the slightest.  If people really want to say Allen is a pro-bowl level tightend fine I don't really care.  I don't happen to think he was but I also think Allen had a very good season by any tightend standards so frankly the gap probably just comes down to word choice. 

 

ALL I am trying to say is that if Allen is that level Fleener wasn't the scrub who shouldn't be on a NFL roster that some make him out to be.  He's MUCH closer to Allen than that.  It's not trying to bring Allen down to Fleener's level like some seem to be taking it.  It's saying Fleener was better than people like to give him credit for.

[Tark The Shark]

Fleener had rookie woes. Allen was more suited as the all around TE while Fleener should have been the slot WR in the offense like Clark was. 

 

Hopefully Pep utilizes Allen & Fleener more effectively in the offense because they are very good, they just need time.

[ColtsLegacy]

For the last time my point was NOT, NEVER HAS BEEN, and IS NOT to talk about if Allen was a Pro-Bowl level tightend or try to knock Allen in the slightest.  If people really want to say Allen is a pro-bowl level tightend fine I don't really care.  I don't happen to think he was but I also think Allen had a very good season by any tightend standards so frankly the gap probably just comes down to word choice. 

 

ALL I am trying to say is that if Allen is that level Fleener wasn't the scrub who shouldn't be on a NFL roster that some make him out to be.  He's MUCH closer to Allen than that.  It's not trying to bring Allen down to Fleener's level like some seem to be taking it.  It's saying Fleener was better than people like to give him credit for.

 

I haven't seen anyone call him a scrub that shouldn't be in the NFL, but I get your point. I do agree some people's view of Fleener is skewed because they are comparing his rookie season to Allen's which isn't fair. Fleener had a solid rookie season and I believe he's a keeper.