I JUST GOT INTO A FIGHT! HOW MANY TROPHIES DO WE HAVE?!

[mahagga73]

I refuse to glorify senseless violence so I will spare you the details. Let's just say I strongly voiced my opinion through unconventional means to a fellow patron that the colts have two trophies, superbowl 5 and the superbowl we won with Peyton Manning. Long story short, am I wrong?

I was being rational until the drunkard I was talking to decided words were not enough to prove his case.

The record books do not differenciate between the LA Raiders and Oakland Raiders titles, the LA Rams NFL titles and SB win, and the same is the case for the Colts.  No you are not wrong, cities do not own teams, this is not college. Irsay retains all records accorded his franchise in Baltimore and Indy much like any other company . This is just the reason why this flukish SB run by the Ravens has caused me a lot of consternation, I hate a lot of their crybaby insulting fans and the stupid things the team does like not putting Colt's on the scoreboard.  Why this is so much a bigger deal with the Colt's than say the Raiders is a mystery to me. You never hear LA fans crying that the 51 title or 83 Raiders SB win belong to them. I probably  speak for a lot of the older guys and gals on here when I say I root for the team, the helmet, the tradition, and not the city, though I love Indy. If they move Tommorrow, which they won't. I will bleed blue there too.

[mahagga73]

Technically, they have 5 NFL titles. In 1968 they were NFL Champs when they played the Jets who were AFL Champs.

 

Technically, they have 5 NFL titles. In 1968 they were NFL Champs when they played the Jets who were AFL Champs.

Yeah that's true, in some places it counts as a title, and in some it don't.  Same goes for the AFL teams. The Bills won 3 of those I believe.

[Dark Superman]

Cowboys fans.. Always talkin trash. Same with Eagles fans.

[JoKeR]

Sounds like a good reason to get in a fight

[coltsfan_nyc]

Sounds like a good reason to get in a fight

 

Not really, I didn't want to fight actually but I had to defend myself. After that stupid fiasco, I just wanted to at least know that I was right and by reading this thread it appears that I was, LOL!

[Thewholefnshow28]

Sounds like a good reason to get in a fight

 

Yeah you always got to get into fights because their team wears another color of laundry.  Why in the world do you fight over something this stupid?

[JoKeR]

Yeah you always got to get into fights because their team wears another color of laundry.  Why in the world do you fight over something this stupid?

Because the other team sucks, that's why. Lol

[MAC]

See, I knew we had two, he said we had one, and lost superbowl 3, I told him about superbowl 5 and he started getting super hostile! Very wierd moment, the last fight I been in was in highschool, this feels like a dream or something, like did this realy happen?

Well if he "credits" us with losing Super Bowl three, than clearly this has nothing to do with Baltimore. Too bad those seizing this as a reason to revisit that sorry topic (AGAIN) didn't catch that.

 

Perhaps he was just a bad drunk with limited knowledge of football. Are you quite sure that you didn't point these personality flaws out to him a bit too accurately?

 

Thanks for reminding me of one of the many reasons why I've never gone to a sports bar to watch the Colts (or anybody else for that matter).

[Nostrils]

See, I knew we had two, he said we had one, and lost superbowl 3, I told him about superbowl 5 and he started getting super hostile! Very wierd moment, the last fight I been in was in highschool, this feels like a dream or something, like did this realy happen?

 

 

yeah man I feel you... when someone is gonna get mad over pro sports, its like really.. im 25 years old Im not perfect ive been in many dumb situations over dumb things, IM NOT PERFECT... but as i get older I realize the Colts, Lakers, LA Kings or whoever else I root for aren't paying my bills, we pay their salary, and with how SHADY pro sports have always been, and even more so than ever today (personal opinion) ill be darned if I let them affect my physical health anymore.. flipping out or getting all emo over a win/loss... I will always ride for my teams but there is a line..

 

and with that said, I really wish you would have just slept and stomped dude once or twice.. sometimes a whooping is the only thing that makes people grow up and stop acting stupid, as cruel as that sounds.. what an iiii*... glad nothing crazy happened my man

[OldManP]

So true! Still makes you laugh though! They've won two sb's with their new browns/ravens team. I don't think they are as bitter as years past, but it's still there.

The team won two SBs. The fans may have won the office pool, or even a bet with a bookie.  No fan ever won a SB.

[OldManP]

Not really, I didn't want to fight actually but I had to defend myself. After that stupid fiasco, I just wanted to at least know that I was right and by reading this thread it appears that I was, LOL!

Did you actually come here expecting any fanboy to tell you to grow up, stop saying "WE", and watch sports for the entertainment?

[Dustin]

Did you actually come here expecting any fanboy to tell you to grow up, stop saying "WE", and watch sports for the entertainment?

 

Do you actually know what fanboy means? You use it an awful lot and it's wrong almost every single time.

[Fx Stryker]

Well if he "credits" us with losing Super Bowl three, than clearly this has nothing to do with Baltimore. Too bad those seizing this as a reason to revisit that sorry topic (AGAIN) didn't catch that.

 

See that's what confused me. My initial assumption was that he liked the Cowboys. Then he said Ravens fan.

 

Like you said he might not know his football history.

[Carlos Danger]

pretty sure they have 5... but technically only one Lombardi trophy because the city of Baltimore won a lawsuit that brought the Lombardi from SB 5 back to them... We have 2 (maybe 3) Ed Thorpe trophies (but technically there is only 1 thorpe trophy and I think it is housed in Canton) sooo. depending on the semantics of the argument.... the colts physically house 1 trophy: the Lombardi that Peyton brought home... they have won 5 championships... 2 Superbowls...

 

The 2 in the Superbowl era are the two that people remember and that you can explain the most easily...  unless the guy you are trying to explain it to has you in a camel clutch or a figure four leg lock...

 

there are questions about the 68' championship, but who cares.. if someone is willing to fight over that then you might as well argue about which actor played "Brand" in The Goonies...

 

edit: if anyone cares, hint: the actor who played Brand played George W. Bush in a somewhat recent movie....

 

edit 2: took out the "we's" and replaced them with "theys" lol... for u OMP

[Dustin]

pretty sure we have 5... but technically only one Lombardi trophy because the city of Baltimore won a lawsuit that brought the Lombardi from SB 5 back to them... We have 2 (maybe 3) Ed Thorpe trophies (but technically there is only 1 thorpe trophy and I think it is housed in Canton) sooo. depending on the semantics of the argument.... we physically house 1 trophy: the Lombardi that Peyton brought home... we have won 5 championships... 2 Superbowls...

 

The 2 in the Superbowl era are the two that people remember and that you can explain the most easily...  unless the guy you are trying to explain it to has you in a camel clutch or a figure four leg lock...

 

No we still have the one from Baltimore. You're think about the Browns-Ravens lawsuit I think. Art Modell was forced to leave behind the Brown's history.

[Carlos Danger]

No we still have the one from Baltimore. You're think about the Browns-Ravens lawsuit I think. Art Modell was forced to leave behind the Brown's history.

we had to give the trophy back to them, not the credit for it... I think its the only time its ever happened... (a team having to give the physical trophy back to their former city)

[Tony Sullivan]

pretty sure they have 5... but technically only one Lombardi trophy because the city of Baltimore won a lawsuit that brought the Lombardi from SB 5 back to them... We have 2 (maybe 3) Ed Thorpe trophies (but technically there is only 1 thorpe trophy and I think it is housed in Canton) sooo. depending on the semantics of the argument.... the colts physically house 1 trophy: the Lombardi that Peyton brought home... they have won 5 championships... 2 Superbowls...

By that logic the Raiders didn't win superbowl 18. Do the Titans no longer get to claim the successes of the Houston Oilers and everything Moon did for them? There was a lot of uproar recently about Old Navy branding an Oiler AFL win as a Texans win.

This whole discussion is silly, the Colts won 2 superbowls.

[Carlos Danger]

By that logic the Raiders didn't win superbowl 18.

not sure what you mean... I am not trying to say that the Colts didn't win any of them... only that we only physically have 1 trophy... 1 of ours is in Baltimore, the other championships used a traveling trophy, unlike the Lombardi, which is made new every year and given to the winners to keep... It is possible that I missed 1 or added an extra, but I am not saying that the Colts didn't win them, just that the OP said that his fight was about "how many trophies we have" and we only have 1...

[Tony Sullivan]

not sure what you mean... I am not trying to say that the Colts didn't win any of them... only that we only physically have 1 trophy... 1 of ours is in Baltimore, the other championships used a traveling trophy, unlike the Lombardi, which is made new every year and given to the winners to keep... It is possible that I missed 1 or added an extra, but I am not saying that the Colts didn't win them, just that the OP said that his fight was about "how many trophies we have" and we only have 1...

Oh, my apologies, misinterpretted the discussion. Having Lombardi trophies is used so colloquially for winning the superbowl I misunderstood.

[Carlos Danger]

Oh, my apologies, misinterpretted the discussion. Having Lombardi trophies is used so colloquially for winning the superbowl I misunderstood.

ah.. i see.. ya, i probably could've written that more coherently as well... no worries

[Hammer]

That would have been SB3 in 1969. A sad sad day indeed.

It was the '68 season, the Super Bowl took place in Jan. of '69. Thanks for the correction on which Super Bowl. Major brain fart on my part. 

[willysp]

I refuse to glorify senseless violence so I will spare you the details. Let's just say I strongly voiced my opinion through unconventional means to a fellow patron that the colts have two trophies, superbowl 5 and the superbowl we won with Peyton Manning. Long story short, am I wrong?

I was being rational until the drunkard I was talking to decided words were not enough to prove his case.

Depends on how you define "we / Colts", I guess. To me, the "Indy" Colts won one. There are other answers if you define "we" to include the Colts franchise since day 1. But the definition of "we" is not worth getting into a fight over, IMO.

[NewEra]

Because the other team sucks, that's why. Lol

Exactly! Lol...but I'm an ex boxer and love a good scrap, even though I know better. It's taboo to have a disagreement and go settle it out in the parking lot now days

[jvan1973]

Do you actually know what fanboy means? You use it an awful lot and it's wrong almost every single time.

No he doesn't, and he will never respond to any of his critics. He is a sad old man

[jvan1973]

Did you actually come here expecting any fanboy to tell you to grow up, stop saying "WE", and watch sports for the entertainment?

Who are you to tell sometime how to watch sports?

[The Old Crow]

 Here is the answer:

 

Baltimore Colts 1958, 1959, 1968 NFL Champions  1970 Super Bowl V  It is all the record books as Baltimore Colts and does not mention Indy. The Super Bowl V replica trophy was awarded by the NFL to Baltimore,  and currently resides at Sports Legends at Camden Yards Museum. The NFL has basically admitted that these Championships belong to Baltimore, despite the silly franchise arguments.  This is why a Giant's fan scoffs that Indy has won two Super Bowls, and why you don't see Baltimore era banners and Championships in Indy. At least Irsay had the sense not to do this. The Baltimore Ravens won in 2000 and 2012, giving them six NFL Championships, while Indy has won one in 2006.  

 

If the Indy fan wants to claim the Baltimore Championships, they can try, but you'll get a universal argument from most NFL fans from other cities, that these events never happened there. Most of the teams that were stolen or relocated, stunk, and most never won anything. The Baltimore Colts were different because of their storied history. The only other equivilent may be the Brooklyn Dodgers, but their history wasn't nearly as golden as the Baltimore Colts. The Irsays may have bought the franchise, but they don't own history. The best thing they could do is abandon the old Championships, and let the old Hall of Famers move under the Ravens, as they all want to do. I know Johnny Unitas's son wants this. For the Baltimore Colts fan that moved from Baltimore to Indy, I guess you would follow the Colts whether they eventually moved to LA, or Timbucktoo. I would think if that would ever happen, the Indy fan would be outraged, especially if the city tried to claim Indy's 2006 Championship, and put Peyton Manning in an LA Colts section. After this happened, lets say Indianapolis was awarded a new team, the 500's. What would you do as an Indianapolis fan ? Support the team that left to LA and stole your records, or your new team ?Wouldn't you still want the Championship that was won in your city, that you have great memories of ? This is what the " Get over it," crowd will never understand. It's about empathy and fairness.

[GoColts8818]

Here is the answer:

Baltimore Colts 1958, 1959, 1968 NFL Champions 1970 Super Bowl V It is all the record books as Baltimore Colts and does not mention Indy. The Super Bowl V replica trophy was awarded by the NFL to Baltimore, and currently resides at Sports Legends at Camden Yards Museum. The NFL has basically admitted that these Championships belong to Baltimore, despite the silly franchise arguments. This is why a Giant's fan scoffs that Indy has won two Super Bowls, and why you don't see Baltimore era banners and Championships in Indy. At least Irsay had the sense not to do this. The Baltimore Ravens won in 2000 and 2012, giving them six NFL Championships, while Indy has won one in 2006.

If the Indy fan wants to claim the Baltimore Championships, they can try, but you'll get a universal argument from most NFL fans from other cities, that these events never happened there. Most of the teams that were stolen or relocated, stunk, and most never won anything. The Baltimore Colts were different because of their storied history. The only other equivilent may be the Brooklyn Dodgers, but their history wasn't nearly as golden as the Baltimore Colts. The Irsays may have bought the franchise, but they don't own history. The best thing they could do is abandon the old Championships, and let the old Hall of Famers move under the Ravens, as they all want to do. I know Johnny Unitas's son wants this. For the Baltimore Colts fan that moved from Baltimore to Indy, I guess you would follow the Colts whether they eventually moved to LA, or Timbucktoo. I would think if that would ever happen, the Indy fan would be outraged, especially if the city tried to claim Indy's 2006 Championship, and put Peyton Manning in an LA Colts section. After this happened, lets say Indianapolis was awarded a new team, the 500's. What would you do as an Indianapolis fan ? Support the team that left to LA and stole your records, or your new team ?Wouldn't you still want the Championship that was won in your city, that you have great memories of ? This is what the " Get over it," crowd will never understand. It's about empathy and fairness.

the trophy is there but the title is still recognized with the Colts franchise. If you look it up officially the Colts have played in four Super Bowls (all in Miami just for the record) and won two of them. Just like how the Colts recognize the retired numbers and team records from Baltimore.

http://espn.go.com/blog/sportscenter/post/_/id/26121/colts-super-bowl-history

http://www.colts.com/team/history.html

Read the last line it gives the official team history for championships. They belong to franchises not cities.

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/team/history/all-time-results-and-statistics.html

There is the ravens official team history notice none of the Baltimore Colts marks are included they are a different franchise.

That would be like the rams including the old cardinals numbers into their history from St. Louis. It doesn't work that way.

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

If you were arguing with a bitter Baltimorian they will say the Colts have 1 Super Bowl.

 

They won't credit the Super Bowl V trophy to us, nor the '58 and '59 championships for that matter.

 

But many fans here have watched those games.

 

So we have two. One in Baltimore and one in Indy. It all depends on who you are talking to.

 

I'v had many conversations on this subject . The bottom line is all Colts history belong to the Colts franchise . The city tried to take the team away using imminent domain as cover . Hence the Mayflowers . It was & still is a hot political issue in Baltimore . Fans there say we still have the Lombardi our Baltimore Colts won we'll never give it up . Sour grapes is all its about . The citizens & politicians blew it & hold a grudge . They have as much right to the COLTS franchises Trophies as the Cleveland Browns have a right to claim the Ravens 2 SB trophies . As much as some fans complain & try to make the Irsay's look bad the truth is he protected his investment . After reading the history the villains were clearly based in Baltimore . And to this day the river denial flows wide & deep in Maryland ..

[Fx Stryker]

I'v had many conversations on this subject . The bottom line is all Colts history belong to the Colts franchise . The city tried to take the team away using imminent domain as cover . Hence the Mayflowers . It was & still is a hot political issue in Baltimore . Fans there say we still have the Lombardi our Baltimore Colts won we'll never give it up . Sour grapes is all its about . The citizens & politicians blew it & hold a grudge . They have as much right to the COLTS franchises Trophies as the Cleveland Browns have a right to claim the Ravens 2 SB trophies . As much as some fans complain & try to make the Irsay's look bad the truth is he protected his investment . After reading the history the villains were clearly based in Baltimore . And to this day the river denial flows wide & deep in Maryland ..

 

I don't think the comparison between the Colts and Browns/Ravens is the same at all. Like many pointed out here the Rams or Cardinals is a better comparison   Old topic and old subjest. They've even started putting Colts back on the scoreboard.

 

I'm pretty sure though Rosenbloom took his Super Bowl trophy with him. That is why Bob didn't get it. Baltimore wanted to keep the replica in Baltimore also. As the city does have a right to have at the Colts museum because theirs is a replica. If Jim wanted he can just get another replica made so we have two trophies in our case. Idk if we do. I've never been to Indy.

[jemack]

The Colts have four titles. 58.59.70, and 2007.   That crap about Baltimore and Indy is stupid.   The Rams have been in three cities.  Cleveland, LA, and St Louis.  The Colts are the Colts.  Doesn't matter where they move.

Actually they have 5 Nfl titles. They won it in the '68 season, but lost to the Afl Jets in the SB

[The Old Crow]

I don't think the comparison between the Colts and Browns/Ravens is the same at all. Like many pointed out here the Rams or Cardinals is a better comparison   Old topic and old subjest. They've even started putting Colts back on the scoreboard.

 

I'm pretty sure though Rosenbloom took his Super Bowl trophy with him. That is why Bob didn't get it. Baltimore wanted to keep the replica in Baltimore also. As the city does have a right to have at the Colts museum because theirs is a replica. If Jim wanted he can just get another replica made so we have two trophies in our case. Idk if we do. I've never been to Indy.

 

Actually, the family of deceased Ram's owner Georgia Frontiere , widow of Carroll Rosenbloom, has the original Super Bowl 5 trophy. Baltimore won the lawsuit for the replica Super Bowl 5 trophy, and it safely rests at Sports legends at Camden Yards museum. I'm not sure why the Cleveland Browns have the right to the Baltimore Ravens Super Bowl titles, as they are still called , and currently have a team known as the Cleveland Browns. The Baltimore Colts have ceased to exist, so it's not the same as the Browns/Ravens scenario.

 

I'm not replaying the reasons for the Colts move to Indy, there was plenty of blame to go around between Bob Irsay and the City of Baltimore. Although the NFL and Indy believes the history and heritage belongs to the franchise, any fan in Baltimore, or any other NFL city, would pan the Indianapolis claim to NFL Championships in 1958, 59, 68, and Super Bowl 5 in 1970. The fact that Baltimore has the Super Bowl 5 trophy, a Johnny Unitas statue, and the only Ring of Honor at M & T Bank Stadium with the old Hall of Fame Colts, are just some of the reasons people link the old Colts history to Baltimore, and the Ravens. All the Championships in the record books say Baltimore Colts, when Indy didn't have a team in existance. This is why Jim Irsay won't hang the old Championship banners, or put old Baltimore Colts in the Indianapolis Ring of Honor. Only the dopic bureaucrats at the pro football Hall of Fame in Canton, and the NFL Franchise apologists, credit these wins to another city that didn't exist in the NFL at the time, and a family that didn't own the team then.

 

If I was an Indy Colts fan, I would only want credit for the well earned Championship in 2006. Baltimore lays no claim to Indy's football history post-1984. With Peyton Manning and Luck, it's been a nice run, and now Indy has their own history. It's best to leave the old history where it belongs, in Baltimore, and in the memory of those in the city that went to the games, and lived it.

[GoColts8818]

Actually, the family of deceased Ram's owner Georgia Frontiere , widow of Carroll Rosenbloom, has the original Super Bowl 5 trophy. Baltimore won the lawsuit for the replica Super Bowl 5 trophy, and it safely rests at Sports legends at Camden Yards museum. I'm not sure why the Cleveland Browns have the right to the Baltimore Ravens Super Bowl titles, as they are still called , and currently have a team known as the Cleveland Browns. The Baltimore Colts have ceased to exist, so it's not the same as the Browns/Ravens scenario.

 

I'm not replaying the reasons for the Colts move to Indy, there was plenty of blame to go around between Bob Irsay and the City of Baltimore. Although the NFL and Indy believes the history and heritage belongs to the franchise, any fan in Baltimore, or any other NFL city, would pan the Indianapolis claim to NFL Championships in 1958, 59, 68, and Super Bowl 5 in 1970. The fact that Baltimore has the Super Bowl 5 trophy, a Johnny Unitas statue, and the only Ring of Honor at M & T Bank Stadium with the old Hall of Fame Colts, are just some of the reasons people link the old Colts history to Baltimore, and the Ravens. All the Championships in the record books say Baltimore Colts, when Indy didn't have a team in existance. This is why Jim Irsay won't hang the old Championship banners, or put old Baltimore Colts in the Indianapolis Ring of Honor. Only the dopic bureaucrats at the pro football Hall of Fame in Canton, and the NFL Franchise apologists, credit these wins to another city that didn't exist in the NFL at the time, and a family that didn't own the team then.

 

If I was an Indy Colts fan, I would only want credit for the well earned Championship in 2006. Baltimore lays no claim to Indy's football history post-1984. With Peyton Manning and Luck, it's been a nice run, and now Indy has their own history. It's best to leave the old history where it belongs, in Baltimore, and in the memory of those in the city that went to the games, and lived it.

Again it's not about Indy Colts fans only claiming Baltimore history.  It's about Colts fans claiming the history of the Colts which his well with in their right to do so.  It doesn't really matter what draws someone to a team or when they are drawn to it but once they are people tend like to celebrate the history of the team they are a fan of if it's worth celebrating and in the Colts case it is.  Also take a look around here we have several fans who say their fanhood of the Colts goes back to when the team was in Baltimore.  Are they not aloud to celebrate the history that they witnessed or cheered for just because the team moved cities? 

 

Also Indianapolis doesn't claim those championships.  The Colts franchise claims them and there is a big difference.  The city of Indianapolis it's self doesn't claim any championships for the Colts because they didn't win them.  The Colts franchise won them.  The only thing Indianapolis claims is being the home of last year's Super Bowl and the home of the Colts who have won Championships in their franchise history.  It goes back to the franchise. 

 

Frankly the Colts have pretty much publically ignored their Baltimore past.  They don't display their titles won from that time period in their new stadium or the retired numbers.  They just honor them in their official team history and in the media guide and in the case of the retired numbers they don't hand them out anymore.  The Colts have gone out of their way to not rub the city of Baltimore's nose in the move while retaining their history which is there right to do.  If Irsay wanted to display those things he most certainty could but he knows it would be in poor taste which is why he doesn't. 

 

The fact that Baltimore has those things is a sign that they are proud of a rich football history in their town which I have zero issue with.  Make no mistake though the history belongs to the Colts.  Not the city of Baltimore and not the city of Indianapolis, heck not even Jim Irsay, but the Colts franchise it's self.  What I mean by the last part is if Jim Irsay ever sells the Colts the Colts history doesn't just go away with a new owner it's still credited to the franchise.  Example when Magic Johnson bought the Dodgers all their history didn't go away with a new owner it was still and frankly part of why it costs so much more to buy a team like the Dodgers than say the Diamondbacks is that you are paying for the team history and since the Dodgers have such a rich one it helps make the value go up. 

 

Frankly most people in Indianapolis could really care about the Baltimore history they just get tired of it being brought up and having to listen to people from Baltimore who can't let go of the Colts even though they left years ago and can't fully embrace a team that has now brought their city two Super Bowl Titles (one more than the Colts did).  Honestly if you listen to some Baltimore fans if they could trade the Ravens to have "their" Colts back they would do it in a heart beat.  I don't get that part myself frankly I would much rather embrace the team that has proven it wants to be there than keep crying about the team that didn't want to be there anymore.  If Colts fans want to celebrate the whole franchise's history fine why do people in Baltimore care so much?  I would think they would be much more interested in celebrating their Super Bowl Championship they just won than reliving something that happened almost 30 years ago. 

[The Old Crow]

If you are a fan of just the Colts, I guess it's like the DVD, you enjoy both eras and can enjoy them both. I applaud Jim Irsay for not displaying the Baltimore titles, but don't understand why he'd oppose the Championship banners being flown in Baltimore.

 

As far as reliving something that happened 30 years ago, it's all relative. The Ravens 2000 Championship and Indy Colts 2006 Championship are as much in the past as the 58,59, 68, and 70 Championships. Should we not celebrate these old victories ? God knows Steelers fans celebrate those old 70's Championships, as well their current two. This is how it is for Raven's fans. We certainly are thrilled with our team, and are proud of our two latest Super Bowls. But we also honor our old Champions of the Baltimore Colts, that are as much a part of Baltimore history as Fort Mchenry ,and the Star Spangled Banner.

 

When the Browns moved to Baltimore, the history and records stayed with Cleveland, and did not move to Baltimore, so an owner does not have to take the records when he is moving a franchise.  We have had the honor in Baltimore to have two of the most successful franchises in the Carroll Rosenbloom Baltimore Colts of 1958-1972, and the current Baltimore Ravens. To most of us, it is one history, but considered two seperate franchises. Both histories should always be honored and cherished, as they were unbelievable eras of winning football. The Jim Irsay/Peyton manning era was a great one for Indy with two Super Bowl appearances. The future looks bright for both the Ravens and Colts, but there will always be this link because of the dual histories. It was another unitended consequence that comes with franchise shifting.

[schwamm]

If you are a fan of just the Colts, I guess it's like the DVD, you enjoy both eras and can enjoy them both. I applaud Jim Irsay for not displaying the Baltimore titles, but don't understand why he'd oppose the Championship banners being flown in Baltimore.

 

As far as reliving something that happened 30 years ago, it's all relative. The Ravens 2000 Championship and Indy Colts 2006 Championship are as much in the past as the 58,59, 68, and 70 Championships. Should we not celebrate these old victories ? God knows Steelers fans celebrate those old 70's Championships, as well their current two. This is how it is for Raven's fans. We certainly are thrilled with our team, and are proud of our two latest Super Bowls. But we also honor our old Champions of the Baltimore Colts, that are as much a part of Baltimore history as Fort Mchenry ,and the Star Spangled Banner.

 

When the Browns moved to Baltimore, the history and records stayed with Cleveland, and did not move to Baltimore, so an owner does not have to take the records when he is moving a franchise.  We have had the honor in Baltimore to have two of the most successful franchises in the Carroll Rosenbloom Baltimore Colts of 1958-1972, and the current Baltimore Ravens. To most of us, it is one history, but considered two seperate franchises. Both histories should always be honored and cherished, as they were unbelievable eras of winning football. The Jim Irsay/Peyton manning era was a great one for Indy with two Super Bowl appearances. The future looks bright for both the Ravens and Colts, but there will always be this link because of the dual histories. It was another unitended consequence that comes with franchise shifting.

Again, Old Crow, this is what I don't get:  you are obsessed with "owning" championships.  It is absolutely OK for Baltimore to embrace their history, which included the Colts, and for Colts fans to embrace the team's history, which included a time in Baltimore.  One does not have to exclude the other.

 

I think it is a little loony for you to be ranting your revisionist history theory all over a Colts Fan Forum, as if you are going to convince someone here, and the team will suddenly decide to send everything back to Maryland.  I'm sure this stuff gets much better traction on Raven's sites, so maybe you can take it back there for better success.

[GoColts8818]

If you are a fan of just the Colts, I guess it's like the DVD, you enjoy both eras and can enjoy them both. I applaud Jim Irsay for not displaying the Baltimore titles, but don't understand why he'd oppose the Championship banners being flown in Baltimore.

Because the Ravens franchise didn't win them his did.  To be honest I am sure the Raven's franchise wouldn't be thrilled about displaying titles their franchise didn't win either.  The Ravens have a very good franchise history that stands on it's own and it doesn't need the Colts history to make it stand on it's own.  If people in Baltimore want to embrace the football history in their town go for it.  I don't think anyone would really care but when the Ravens franchise starts trying to take credit for something that isn't really theirs it looks kinda cheap.  It would be like the Jets trying to take credit for the Giants history just because they are both from the same city.  They are still different franchises. 

As far as reliving something that happened 30 years ago, it's all relative. The Ravens 2000 Championship and Indy Colts 2006 Championship are as much in the past as the 58,59, 68, and 70 Championships. Should we not celebrate these old victories ? God knows Steelers fans celebrate those old 70's Championships, as well their current two. This is how it is for Raven's fans. We certainly are thrilled with our team, and are proud of our two latest Super Bowls. But we also honor our old Champions of the Baltimore Colts, that are as much a part of Baltimore history as Fort Mchenry ,and the Star Spangled Banner.

Not really.  People in Indianapolis really don't care and Colts fans who just follow the Colts don't really care about it and never really have.  People who were jaded in Baltimore seem to be the ones that keep this alive and frankly as the older generation gets older it becomes less and less of an issue.  If the people in Baltimore want to honor the titles won in Baltimore go for it.  No one has ever said Baltimore shouldn't be proud of what the Colts did in Baltimore.  With that said in terms of who the title officially belongs to it's the Colts not the city of Baltimore.  So to answer the original question that started this thread the Colts franchise has officially won two Super Bowl Titles one in Baltimore and one in Indianapolis. 

When the Browns moved to Baltimore, the history and records stayed with Cleveland, and did not move to Baltimore, so an owner does not have to take the records when he is moving a franchise.  We have had the honor in Baltimore to have two of the most successful franchises in the Carroll Rosenbloom Baltimore Colts of 1958-1972, and the current Baltimore Ravens. To most of us, it is one history, but considered two seperate franchises. Both histories should always be honored and cherished, as they were unbelievable eras of winning football. The Jim Irsay/Peyton manning era was a great one for Indy with two Super Bowl appearances. The future looks bright for both the Ravens and Colts, but there will always be this link because of the dual histories. It was another unitended consequence that comes with franchise shifting.

Yeah because Art made the choice to leave the history behind.  Bob Irsay choose to take it with him because he owned and could do with it as he pleased.  If that makes Bob Irsay a jerk in Baltimore fans eyes then fine that is their right to feel that way.  I am sure if you go ask Cleveland Browns fans they aren't going to see Art as the hero he is seen in Baltimore even though he left the history in Cleveland.  The hate him just about as much as Baltimore fans hate Bob Irsay.  While they still have the team history and the team colors Art took a team that went on to win two Super Bowls from them and left them with a team that has played one playoff game since the move.  Cleveland fans hate Art so much the franchise had to pull plans to honor Art after he died earlier this year because their fanbase wasn't having it because they hate Art so much. 

 

No one has ever said Baltimore shouldn't embrace the Colts history on their town that is well with in their right to do so but just because they want to celebrate it doesn't mean they own it.  The Colts franchise it's self owns the history.  Frankly I think the Colts have gone out of their way not to rub the city of Baltimore's face in the move and frankly let Baltimore celebrate the history they witnessed.  With that said the Colts franchise has wanted to protect it's history.  Not all the ex-Colt players were like Johnny U that pretty much disowned the Colts when they moved.  Several former Colts view themselves as they played for the Colts not the city of Baltimore.  Most notably Raymond Berry who has been on the Indianapolis Colts sidelines more than once and presented the Super Bowl Trophy in Indianapolis last year.  When asked once why he did that stuff he said something to the effect of he was proud of playing in Baltimore but he was a Colt not a Raven.  Should he not be aloud to be celebrated by the franchise he played for just because they are in a different town?

 

It's a gray area for sure but in terms of who officially own the history it's the Colts franchise.  Should the people of Baltimore be able to celebrate what they witnessed themselves?  Sure, but it doesn't mean they own it.  By the same token Colts fans should be able to embrace the history of their franchise no matter where it happened.  Neither party is in the wrong for wanting to celebrate their past. 

[BIGugly]

I'm soooo confused.

 

so when we beat baltimore are we beating .... cleveland .... or ourselves .... or somebody else????

[schwamm]

I realize I've already spouted off on this issue too much, to the point I'm just ranting to myself...

But I feel like what happened in the Browns-becoming-the-Ravens deal is akin to a Stalin-esque attempt to erase history. As if the NFL wishes for future fans to be oblivious to what happened.

I prefer the honesty and transparency of the Colts-to-Indy event. There is no attempt to hide what happened, and the whole affair has more integrity to me, if for no other reason than everyone knows what a jerk Irsay was, and everyone knows how close Maryland came to legalizing theft. It is what it is, warts and all.

[The Old Crow]

I think the hardest thing is that there is really no place for these old Baltimore Colts and their fans to celebrate their past glories. As pointed out, some of the old 1970's Colts, Shula, and Berry have been to Indianapolis, but the majority of others, Unitas, Donovan, Matte, Stan White among others, see the Ravens as a natural extension of the Baltimore Colts, and will only go to M & T Bank Stadium. This is the city vs. franchise argument. I'm not sure it's transparent, I think it's downright confusing.I feel that the Baltimore/Cleveland and IndianapolisBaltimore moves are more like apples and oranges, than apples to apples. I think in the case of Raymond Berry, he really didn't keep his ties to Baltimore like most of the other old Colts did. Maybe because he was a coach for the Patriots, who knows. It's almost like this era of Colts football is in limbo.

[The Old Crow]

 

Because the Ravens franchise didn't win them his did.  To be honest I am sure the Raven's franchise wouldn't be thrilled about displaying titles their franchise didn't win either.  The Ravens have a very good franchise history that stands on it's own and it doesn't need the Colts history to make it stand on it's own.  If people in Baltimore want to embrace the football history in their town go for it.  I don't think anyone would really care but when the Ravens franchise starts trying to take credit for something that isn't really theirs it looks kinda cheap.  It would be like the Jets trying to take credit for the Giants history just because they are both from the same city.  They are still different franchises. 

Not really.  People in Indianapolis really don't care and Colts fans who just follow the Colts don't really care about it and never really have.  People who were jaded in Baltimore seem to be the ones that keep this alive and frankly as the older generation gets older it becomes less and less of an issue.  If the people in Baltimore want to honor the titles won in Baltimore go for it.  No one has ever said Baltimore shouldn't be proud of what the Colts did in Baltimore.  With that said in terms of who the title officially belongs to it's the Colts not the city of Baltimore.  So to answer the original question that started this thread the Colts franchise has officially won two Super Bowl Titles one in Baltimore and one in Indianapolis. 

Yeah because Art made the choice to leave the history behind.  Bob Irsay choose to take it with him because he owned and could do with it as he pleased.  If that makes Bob Irsay a jerk in Baltimore fans eyes then fine that is their right to feel that way.  I am sure if you go ask Cleveland Browns fans they aren't going to see Art as the hero he is seen in Baltimore even though he left the history in Cleveland.  The hate him just about as much as Baltimore fans hate Bob Irsay.  While they still have the team history and the team colors Art took a team that went on to win two Super Bowls from them and left them with a team that has played one playoff game since the move.  Cleveland fans hate Art so much the franchise had to pull plans to honor Art after he died earlier this year because their fanbase wasn't having it because they hate Art so much. 

 

No one has ever said Baltimore shouldn't embrace the Colts history on their town that is well with in their right to do so but just because they want to celebrate it doesn't mean they own it.  The Colts franchise it's self owns the history.  Frankly I think the Colts have gone out of their way not to rub the city of Baltimore's face in the move and frankly let Baltimore celebrate the history they witnessed.  With that said the Colts franchise has wanted to protect it's history.  Not all the ex-Colt players were like Johnny U that pretty much disowned the Colts when they moved.  Several former Colts view themselves as they played for the Colts not the city of Baltimore.  Most notably Raymond Berry who has been on the Indianapolis Colts sidelines more than once and presented the Super Bowl Trophy in Indianapolis last year.  When asked once why he did that stuff he said something to the effect of he was proud of playing in Baltimore but he was a Colt not a Raven.  Should he not be aloud to be celebrated by the franchise he played for just because they are in a different town?

 

It's a gray area for sure but in terms of who officially own the history it's the Colts franchise.  Should the people of Baltimore be able to celebrate what they witnessed themselves?  Sure, but it doesn't mean they own it.  By the same token Colts fans should be able to embrace the history of their franchise no matter where it happened.  Neither party is in the wrong for wanting to celebrate their past.

 

As I've already pointed out , Baltimore got a crummy franchise when Cleveland moved to Baltimore. They had three straight losing seasons with Ted Marchibroda from 1996-1999, until Steve Biscotti got involved in 2000, and infused the need money into the team. You forget that Modell had to borrow money to sign Andre Rison when he was still in Cleveland. So I would argue that without Baltimore money, the Ravens would have never won in 2000 or 2012. Cleveland would never have won in 2000, as Modell didn't have a pot to do you know what in. So this Baltimore stole Cleveland's Super Bowls is extremely bogus.Also, Art won only won Super Bowl as he had passed away and had sold the team long before 2012.

[NewEra]

No city won anything. It's the team as in Colts team. If Irsay for what ever his reason being was to move HIS team to Indy that is his business and his teams accomplishments to take with him. Totally different with Cleveland. They moved their team and changed it to the ravens. Leaving the browns name and whatever else with the city. Raiders, rams and others have bounced around and their history has went with them. Baltimore is just * cause the team left. Well if they were handling their business right I see no reason why to pick up and move. So the eggs on their face. IMHO of course ;)