I JUST GOT INTO A FIGHT! HOW MANY TROPHIES DO WE HAVE?!

[The Old Crow]

Sooo.... if the Green Bay Packers move to L.A. wll they be "The L.A. Green Bay Packers" ?

 

Orrr....does the entire city of Green Bay have to move to L.A.

 

Orrr....does the city of L.A. become Green Bay California

 

Orrr...????

 

I'm soooo confused.

 

(being facetious here, TRYING to be funny)

 

 

It is funny and confusing.

[The Old Crow]

A name doesn't really make an organization - its just a name, and I don't subscribe to any settlement that lets Cleveland retain the history of an organization that relocated!

 

Art Modell moved the Browns to Baltimore in 1996 and they slapped a new name "Ravens" on the existing organization!   Obviously that left the city of Cleveland without a team / organization.  Sure after a legal settlement or two, the city won the right to keep the name "Browns" so that they could use the name for a future team which came into the league in 1999 - and in the same division as the original Browns - HAH!

 

 

Cleveland got a team back in three years along with logos, records, colors, hall of famers, and Championships. Baltimore lost a team, lost records, logos, etc, and lost out to two mediocre NFL cities in expansion, Jacksonville and Charlotte. The Irsays did not support an expansion franchise for Baltimore, we had to wait twelve years, and Tagiabue told us to build a museum. I'm not saying what Baltimore or Modell did was right, quite the contrary, but don't tell me Cleveland had it harder than Baltimore ! HAH-HAH

[The Old Crow]

I am originally from SE PA, about 80 miles from Baltimore, and 60 miles from Philly. I grew up with the Baltimore Colts. I would go down to 2-3 games a year, to watch Lydell Mitchell, Bert Jones, the Sack Pack..among many other beloved Colts. I loved the Baltimore Colts Band, their uniforms were awesome...As a kid, I got on TV during one game against the Steelers, when me, a 15 year old kid, totally decked out in Colt Blue, with hats, uniform, and all kid of accessories, got up with another fan (I think he was a hired mascot, and we spelled out C-O-L-T-S with our bodies)...I was there when the plane crashed into the stadium, and for the last 2 years, I had season tickets. I loved and I still love the City of Baltimore.

 

Yes, I was angry when the Colts left for Indy, but I wasn't mad at the team I grew to love..I was mad at Irsay for moving the team away from my beloved Baltimore. The following year, the Colts played at Philly, and we got tickets, and myself and a bunch of other friends and Colt fans wore bags over their head with IRSAY S%$^S..Even die hard Philly fans gave us sympathy and thought it wasn't right either.

 

You know what I came to realize, which many Baltimore fans can't or refuse to understand...That it wasn't the players fault they moved. They were still the same team I grew to love. And I was, and still am loyal to the Colts..no matter where they hang their hat. I never forgave the elder Irsay for leaving, but I still cheered on my favorite team and players, even if I couldn't go to any games. And my heart broke years later when they tore down my beloved Memorial Stadium...I swore I would never go to the new stadium, and I never will...Nothing beat watching a game at Memorial Stadium....

 

I love the city of Baltimore...I have many memories there, of games, the Inner Harbor, the 3 dollar tickets from Giant that we could go sit in the bleachers watching the Orioles..(and I'm a Red Sox fan), Pimlico Racetrack just outside Baltimore..the Timonium fair...eating at Phillip's on the harbor after either a day at the Harbor, or a Colts or Orioles game..

 

But, after all that ..my heart and loyalty is still with the Colts..I'm glad the city has a team, and the team has won 2 Championships for the city..But, no matter if in Baltimore, Indy, LA, wherever. I always have and always will bleed blue..And you will not find better fans anywhere than in Indy, and on these forums...Indiana used to be just a basketball state, but they have come to love the Colts, almost if not more than IU, ISU, or ND....

 

Home is where you hang your hat...and right now..I hang my hat with the Indianapolis Colts..and it doesn't matter where the championships are, or where they are won..they were won by all the great players wearing the horseshoe...

 

 

That's fine, I know there are some Colt fans that went to Indy. I also loved Memorial Stadium, and I was there when Donald Kroner crashed that plane into the stadium after the Steeler's playoff loss. You of all people have to understand we Raven's fans also love the old Baltimore Colts, we just see a more Baltimore city perspective to it. I've been to the city of Indianapolis many times, like the city, like the stadium, and the people are polite, and first rate. They have proven to be a good NFL city.

 

I have alot of great memories of Memorial Stadium, but remember, it was because of Memorial Stadium that Bob Irsay moved the team, because he wanted a new one built. Nobody will ever understand what it was like in old Memorial Stadium. It was a Chicago sports writer who named it the Largest Outdoor Insane Asylum, because it was always sold out, and had the loudest stadium, and fans, in the NFL. Most in Indy prefer to remember the 20,000 some left in the late 1980's after Irsay ran the team into the ground, but it wasn't always like that.

[The Old Crow]

What about Cleveland ? Sure the history & logo's were left but nothing else in the cupboard , There front office became yours and a SB win by the Ravens as well thanks to all the hard work over the years by the Cleveland Browns whose fans cheered & supported there team that SB trophy should be theres . Art Modell abandoned them not over imminent domain concerns but greed . Some like to believe they were slighted so  poaching a team & changing the name & starting fresh was'nt good enough now a rewrite of history is in order . Instead of trying to steal the Colts from its rightful owner why did'nt they try to buy it like Green Bay ? A very intelligent move on there part would'nt you agree ?

 

 

I disagree its front & center for all to read

 

As a Californian I moved to Indiana thats my history am I a Hoosier no but my kids are once again this is my personal history  I'v seen lots of change in sports in L.A . But one thing that never changes is history . Art Donovan & Johnny Unitas  were loyal to a city who once had a team with a long history although valued members of the community there wishs as it pertains to the Colts franchise never mattered as payed employees there opinions & ours are irrelevant . A sports franchise history regardless of where they play will always belong with the team .However you choose to frame your unhappiness over the Colts debacle in baltimore . At the end of the day everyone who calls there self a fan of the Colts understands that they moved only because they had too.

 

 

Cleveland has had 14 years to put together a winning franchise. They had Holmgren, and a bunch of other top guys. They even hired guys like Phil Savage who were successful with the Ravens , and became GM. At some point, you have to blame the owner in Cleveland, he's been there long enough to give the Browns a winner. Local ownership did attempt to buy the Colts from Irsay, but it was turned down.

 

If the sports franchise history always belongs to the team, why is the Super Bowl 5 trophy in Baltimore, why did the NFL only allow Chris Redmond of the Ravens to wear high tops instead of Peyton Manning when Johnny U passed away, and why doesn't Indy put up the old banners ? Not as cut and dry as you think.

[BOTT]

Here I thought Datson and Nissan was the same company....turns out they are totally different #nflfanlogic

[The Old Crow]

The Indianapolis Colts have one.  The Baltimore Colts were a different team and fan base so u can't really put their histories together.  Besides the uniforms they became a whole new team in Indy.  Look at it this way do u think Browns fans consider the Ravens an extension to them?  Or the Oilers to the Titans? Those teams just changed names and uniforms to end any confusion.

 

I know a lot of Colts fans and none of them consider the Indy and Baltimore Colts the same team.

 

Excellent. You are a top intellectual. I make no claims to the great Indianapolis Colt's history.

[The Old Crow]

The Harbaugh led Colts were a totally different team, they played in a different stadium, and there has been significant changeover in the fan base since. So was that the same team, or different? Do we need to start referring to the RCA Dome Colts as separate from LOS Colts, and keep separate track of accomplishments for each?

Why is it so difficult to allow for and embrace the past for what it was, without having to put so much effort into categorizing and qualifying it?

It's all the Colts. They were there, then they were here. Players played for them there, some carried over to here, then new players played here. All wore the horseshoe, all were called Colts according to the unedited historical information available.

Look, IMO, if someone tries to say anything accomplished pre-1984 was part of the Indianapolis chapter of this history book, I join you in calling them delusional. But to say it was part of Colts history is absolutely true and undeniable.

I also misspoke earlier, suggesting that a franchise follows an owner. That's not true either, as many have changed ownerships. They've changed names, cities, logos, colors, etc., but somehow the NFL and its fans keep accurate track of the course of every franchise, so that we even know the roots of the Colts, even prior to Baltimore, prior to then becoming the Colts or wearing the horseshoe. And the league celebrates these histories every year when teams trot out their throw back unis. It's a chance for the NFL to introduce new fans to the rich and unedited history of the league.

Just to be redundant: the history is what the history is, so there's no point in fretting so much about who "owns" what accomplishment.

 

 

I think the issue is Baltimore is not allowed to celebrate their players in the Hall of Fame, or with the Championship banners. If you throw most of the records of the Baltimore Colts and Indy Colts together, most have been broken now by Indy Colt players. I would think Indianapolis would want a legacy all their own. Most fans are proud that it is the New York Giants, or the New England Patriots. The city is very important. I'm very surprised that many fans here don't value their city as part of the team. If the city of Indianapolis is irrelevant to the franchise, heck, you wouldn't even have a team, because Hudnut and Indianapolis provided the stadium and funds for the move. By alot of the thinking here, Baltimore and Indianapolis are nothing to the team, and it's just about any Joe Schmoe that owns the Colts. Rosenbloom and Irsay owned the teams, but history occured where it occured. Nothing can change events that already happened, not even NFL revisionists who have tried.

[NewEra]

Pointless...

[The Old Crow]

Pointless...

 

 

Not really.... The NFL has the power to change things. Who ever thought the Berlin Wall would come down ? I think my nickname should be " Old Era! "  LOL

[GoColts8818]

I think the issue is Baltimore is not allowed to celebrate their players in the Hall of Fame, or with the Championship banners. If you throw most of the records of the Baltimore Colts and Indy Colts together, most have been broken now by Indy Colt players. I would think Indianapolis would want a legacy all their own. Most fans are proud that it is the New York Giants, or the New England Patriots. The city is very important. I'm very surprised that many fans here don't value their city as part of the team. If the city of Indianapolis is irrelevant to the franchise, heck, you wouldn't even have a team, because Hudnut and Indianapolis provided the stadium and funds for the move. By alot of the thinking here, Baltimore and Indianapolis are nothing to the team, and it's just about any Joe Schmoe that owns the Colts. Rosenbloom and Irsay owned the teams, but history occured where it occured. Nothing can change events that already happened, not even NFL revisionists who have tried.

Who said they couldn't celebrate their players?  In fact you have said yourself they do but putting them in the Ravens ring of honor and having a statue of Johnny U outside of the stadium so why is this an issue?  You are celebrating your former players.  Several former Colts even helped welcome the Ravens to Baltimore.  So I really don't think anyone would say you can't or haven't celebrated the old Colts. 

 

Also I don't think the league has said that Baltimore can't hang a banner for Super Bowl V.  I think the Ravens franchise has probably elected not too because they didn't win that Super Bowl and celebrating another team's history takes away from their history in their eyes (key point look at this from the Ravens franchise point of view not a Baltimore fan point of view).  If anything the people in this thread have said celebrate it all you want we don't care.  You just don't own the Colts team history just because they used to play there. 

 

Again you miss the main point.  People are Colts fans NOT Indianapolis fans.  I know several people who happen to like the city of Indianapolis and be a fan of it that could really care about the pro-football team or heck even cheer for another pro-team.  So it's not Indianapolis wanting it's own legacy it's Colts fans wanting the Colts legacy. 

 

People who are Colts fans and have become fans of the team since they came to Indianapolis are very proud of what they have done here but that's not the point.  The point people keep trying to tell you is that cities don't own a team's history other than Green Bay because they happen to own the team thus they own the team's history.  The history belongs to the franchise though, not to the cities. 

 

I think the point where most people are getting with you though is who are you to tell Colts fans what they can and can't celebrate?  Notice just about everyone here has said they don't care if you celebrate what happened in Baltimore because most people here understand it's not our place to tell you what you can celebrate and what you can't.  You seem to want to celebrate what happened in Baltimore but that's not really the issue the real issue is that you don't want people outside of Baltimore to celebrate the Colts history and sorry that's not your call.  If you honestly came here looking for Colts fans to admit you have a right to celebrate what the Colts did in Baltimore fine you have it, no one here really cares if you do or don't and no one is saying you can't.  They are just saying you don't own it which you don't and Colts fans regardless of where they live have as much right to celebrate the team's history as you do. 

[GoColts8818]

Not really.... The NFL has the power to change things. Who ever thought the Berlin Wall would come down ? I think my nickname should be " Old Era! "  LOL

They don't have the power to strip Jim Irsay of ownership of something his family paid for.  That history has value.  Think about it if it wasn't for their history the Browns franchise would be about as valuable as the Jacksonville Jaguars.  Bob Irsay elected to keep it.  Sorry, that was his choice and it was his property to do so with and it has been decided in the courts when the Colts sued the city of Baltimore for copy right violation when Baltimore wanted to name a CFL team the Colts and guess what the Colts won not Baltimore.  You can call Bob Irsay any name you would like and hate him as much as you want but it was his and is now his son's property.  Maybe the right thing to do would have been to leave the history behind but he didn't have to do it, despite what people in Baltimore seem to think you aren't entitled to it because they didn't own it.  Does it make him a jerk?  In the eyes of people in Baltimore sure.  However, Bob Irsay is far from the first person to be a jerk and he wont be a last.  So I would say after 30 years it's time to learn to live with it because it's not going to change. 

[The Old Crow]

Who said they couldn't celebrate their players?  In fact you have said yourself they do but putting them in the Ravens ring of honor and having a statue of Johnny U outside of the stadium so why is this an issue?  You are celebrating your former players.  Several former Colts even helped welcome the Ravens to Baltimore.  So I really don't think anyone would say you can't or haven't celebrated the old Colts. 

 

Also I don't think the league has said that Baltimore can't hang a banner for Super Bowl V.  I think the Ravens franchise has probably elected not too because they didn't win that Super Bowl and celebrating another team's history takes away from their history in their eyes (key point look at this from the Ravens franchise point of view not a Baltimore fan point of view).  If anything the people in this thread have said celebrate it all you want we don't care.  You just don't own the Colts team history just because they used to play there. 

 

Again you miss the main point.  People are Colts fans NOT Indianapolis fans.  I know several people who happen to like the city of Indianapolis and be a fan of it that could really care about the pro-football team or heck even cheer for another pro-team.  So it's not Indianapolis wanting it's own legacy it's Colts fans wanting the Colts legacy. 

 

People who are Colts fans and have become fans of the team since they came to Indianapolis are very proud of what they have done here but that's not the point.  The point people keep trying to tell you is that cities don't own a team's history other than Green Bay because they happen to own the team thus they own the team's history.  The history belongs to the franchise though, not to the cities. 

 

I think the point where most people are getting with you though is who are you to tell Colts fans what they can and can't celebrate?  Notice just about everyone here has said they don't care if you celebrate what happened in Baltimore because most people here understand it's not our place to tell you what you can celebrate and what you can't.  You seem to want to celebrate what happened in Baltimore but that's not really the issue the real issue is that you don't want people outside of Baltimore to celebrate the Colts history and sorry that's not your call.  If you honestly came here looking for Colts fans to admit you have a right to celebrate what the Colts did in Baltimore fine you have it, no one here really cares if you do or don't and no one is saying you can't.  They are just saying you don't own it which you don't and Colts fans regardless of where they live have as much right to celebrate the team's history as you do. 

 

 

As far as I know, Jim Irsay will not let Baltimore put up the old Championship banners. It's not about celebrating, but putting history in it's proper context. Two examples. You go to the Hall of fame in Canton, and see all the Baltimore Colt Hall of famers lumped in with Eric Dickerson, who never played in Baltimore. The display says Indianapolis Colts, but these players never played a down in Indianapolis. The name Baltimore has been removed . I mentioned the ESPN restrospective on the 1958 NFL Championship game. They had Indianapolis Colts and NY Giant current players commenting on the game. Again, Baltimore left out.

 

If you go to the Hall of Fame as a Cleveland fan, you will find Otto Graham and Jim Brown in their proper historical context, as Cleveland Browns. Certainly, we all can celebrate this history, but the history is not in it's historic context. The NFL , Hall of Fame, and other revisionists, have tried to erase Baltimore from the history books, and deny that the Colts were once in Baltimore.

 

Colts fans today, should be Indianapolis fans. Maybe you have some regional fans from outlying areas, and some bandwagoneers, who have gotten on the Peyton Manning/Andrew Luck/Hot Team bandwagon over the years, but the city is important. Here is a tweet from Jim Irsay himself, " One day , OUR CITY will dance wildly again in The Monster Parade." Obviously, he's talking about Indy , and it's importance. To many of us, Baltimore is also important, and putting the history of the Baltimore Colts in it's proper historical context is paramount. These are historical inaccuracies that need to be corrected.

[The Old Crow]

They don't have the power to strip Jim Irsay of ownership of something his family paid for.  That history has value.  Think about it if it wasn't for their history the Browns franchise would be about as valuable as the Jacksonville Jaguars.  Bob Irsay elected to keep it.  Sorry, that was his choice and it was his property to do so with and it has been decided in the courts when the Colts sued the city of Baltimore for copy right violation when Baltimore wanted to name a CFL team the Colts and guess what the Colts won not Baltimore.  You can call Bob Irsay any name you would like and hate him as much as you want but it was his and is now his son's property.  Maybe the right thing to do would have been to leave the history behind but he didn't have to do it, despite what people in Baltimore seem to think you aren't entitled to it because they didn't own it.  Does it make him a jerk?  In the eyes of people in Baltimore sure.  However, Bob Irsay is far from the first person to be a jerk and he wont be a last.  So I would say after 30 years it's time to learn to live with it because it's not going to change. 

 

 

You never know. The Super Bowl Five trophy was returned to Baltimore, and the Hall of Fame in Canton may yet bow to pressure and put the old Baltimore Colts under a seperate section, or as an attachment to the Ravens. Baltimore fans have been working on this for years, and it could still happen. This is not a slap at Indy, as Jim Irsay, and the current team, have their own history now, and their own Super Bowl in 2006.  We have lived with the move for 30 years, but we lived without a football team for 12 years, and perservered over Taglibue, his buddy Jack Kent Cooke, and others who told us we would never have a team again. Heck, we had a Baltimore Colts marching band that stayed together for 12 years after the Colts left. That is the kind of determination and perserverence that you see from the Baltimore fan. This Baltimore Colts history has been passed from Grandfather, to father, to son, and is now tightly woven into the current fabric of Raven's history. The Baltimore Sun to this day, still has a weekly section about, where are these old Baltimore Colts. You could go on and on about Robert irsay, but the move occured, and he did what he did. Jim Irsay could go along way by healing the final wounds, and get full closure, with a few small gestures towards Baltimore. If he is into forgiveness like he says he is, his family could avoid the eternal ire that the Modell family faces in Cleveland.

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

The roots of the franchise go back to December 28, 1946, when the
bankrupt Miami Seahawks of the All-America Football Conference were
purchased and relocated in Baltimore by a group headed by Bob Rodenberg.
As the result of a contest in Baltimore, won by Charles Evans of Middle
River, Md., the team was renamed the "Colts." On September 7, 1947,
wearing green and silver uniforms, the Colts, under Head Coach Cecil
Isbell, won their initial AAFC game, 16-7, over the Brooklyn Dodgers.
The team concluded its inaugural season before a record Baltimore crowd
of 51,583 by losing to the New York Yankees, 21-7

 

Green & Silver  YUK    Were you a fan before the move ?  Or were you like me glad to have a team ? Did you care they came from some wheres else ? Back in those days 5 guys bought the Packers & the fans own them & there history as a result , That was one cities approach . In another city every trick in the book was used to steal & demean the team & owner of a so called beloved team if they were then the Ravens would have never been . So the professed love for the team was not apparent till after they left . Change happens just like the change in attitudes public funds & politicians changed there ways they learned there lesson . And the Ravens have 2 SB wins to prove it .

[Fx Stryker]

The roots of the franchise go back to December 28, 1946, when the

bankrupt Miami Seahawks of the All-America Football Conference were

purchased and relocated in Baltimore by a group headed by Bob Rodenberg.

As the result of a contest in Baltimore, won by Charles Evans of Middle

River, Md., the team was renamed the "Colts." On September 7, 1947,

wearing green and silver uniforms, the Colts, under Head Coach Cecil

Isbell, won their initial AAFC game, 16-7, over the Brooklyn Dodgers.

The team concluded its inaugural season before a record Baltimore crowd

of 51,583 by losing to the New York Yankees, 21-7

 

Green & Silver  YUK    Were you a fan before the move ?  Or were you like me glad to have a team ? Did you care they came from some wheres else ? Back in those days 5 guys bought the Packers & the fans own them & there history as a result , That was one cities approach . In another city every trick in the book was used to steal & demean the team & owner of a so called beloved team if they were then the Ravens would have never been . So the professed love for the team was not apparent till after they left . Change happens just like the change in attitudes public funds & politicians changed there ways they learned there lesson . And the Ravens have 2 SB wins to prove it .

 

This isn't exactly the whole picture. I put the entire history of the Colts in the other thread about the Miami Seahawks. If you are interested.

 

You never know. The Super Bowl Five trophy was returned to Baltimore, and the Hall of Fame in Canton may yet bow to pressure and put the old Baltimore Colts under a seperate section, or as an attachment to the Ravens. Baltimore fans have been working on this for years, and it could still happen. This is not a slap at Indy, as Jim Irsay, and the current team, have their own history now, and their own Super Bowl in 2006. We have lived with the move for 30 years, but we lived without a football team for 12 years, and perservered over Taglibue, his buddy Jack Kent Cooke, and others who told us we would never have a team again. Heck, we had a Baltimore Colts marching band that stayed together for 12 years after the Colts left. That is the kind of determination and perserverence that you see from the Baltimore fan. This Baltimore Colts history has been passed from Grandfather, to father, to son, and is now tightly woven into the current fabric of Raven's history. The Baltimore Sun to this day, still has a weekly section about, where are these old Baltimore Colts. You could go on and on about Robert irsay, but the move occured, and he did what he did. Jim Irsay could go along way by healing the final wounds, and get full closure, with a few small gestures towards Baltimore. If he is into forgiveness like he says he is, his family could avoid the eternal ire that the Modell family faces in Cleveland.

 

Except this is a slap to the countless fans who followed the team to Indy. Who is Baltimore to say they are different teams? Just because Baltimore says so? Baltimore is not anymore important than the fans that continued to root for the team.

 

Baltimore feels disrespected I get that, but the irony is the don't care about disrespecting those who followed the team.

 

Why do you get to say the team THEY watched win the '58, '59, and '68 NFL championship and Super Bowl V is not the same? It's their history and their memories just as much it is Baltimore's.

[GoColts8818]

As far as I know, Jim Irsay will not let Baltimore put up the old Championship banners. It's not about celebrating, but putting history in it's proper context. Two examples. You go to the Hall of fame in Canton, and see all the Baltimore Colt Hall of famers lumped in with Eric Dickerson, who never played in Baltimore. The display says Indianapolis Colts, but these players never played a down in Indianapolis. The name Baltimore has been removed . I mentioned the ESPN restrospective on the 1958 NFL Championship game. They had Indianapolis Colts and NY Giant current players commenting on the game. Again, Baltimore left out.

Okay let's think about this logically, Jim Irsay agreed to return the trophy from Super Bowl V, he has no issue with the Ravens having ex Colts in their Ring of Honor, he had no issue with the Ravens using Ex-Colts wearing Baltimore Colts jackets to help welcome the Ravens to Baltimore, he had no issue with the Marching Colts performing for years, he doesn't care that there is a statue outside of the stadium of a guy with a Horse Shoe on the side of his head.  Yet you really think he's going to draw the line at a banner being hung in the Ravens stadium?

 

Also even if he did he has not power over what the Ravens display in their stadium because it's not his stadium.  I think it's far more likely that the Ravens have elected not to display the banner because they feel like they have done enough to embrace the old Colts fans in Baltimore and they want the Ravens franchise to have it's own identity.  That's what they are trying to build and they know the Ravens didn't win Super Bowl five so hanging a banner for it is taking credit for something they didn't do. 

 

As for the ESPN retrospective again they were celebrating the fact that the COLTS played in that game not the Ravens.  Had they used the Ravens guess what then one of the teams that played in that game would have been left out.  Personally I would have had no issue had they used both Colts and Ravens players for it.  However, Baltimore was not left out as they did interview ex-Baltimore players for it and they didn't try to pass it off as if the Colts played in that game when they were in Indianapolis. 

If you go to the Hall of Fame as a Cleveland fan, you will find Otto Graham and Jim Brown in their proper historical context, as Cleveland Browns. Certainly, we all can celebrate this history, but the history is not in it's historic context. The NFL , Hall of Fame, and other revisionists, have tried to erase Baltimore from the history books, and deny that the Colts were once in Baltimore.

Have you ever been the Pro-Football Hall of Fame?  I am guessing based on this you haven't.  If you had been you would know that one of the first things you see is a Baltimore Colts Marching Band Drum with a Raymend Berry jersey next to it and it tells the story of the Marching Baltimore Colts Band and the word Indianapolis is not used once.  You would also know the busts are kept in their own room and are not displayed by teams.  They are displayed by the years they went into the Hall of Fame and on the Baltimore Colts players it says Baltimore Colts and the years they played for the Colts and any other teams they played. The only three players in the Hall of Fame with Indianapolis by their busts are Dickerson, Faulk, and Dent.  All other former Colts say Baltimore in front of the Colts.  There is also a special display for the Greatest game ever played with a story about the celebration in Baltimore after it and how it changed the game all next to a Johnny U statue that talks about his time in Baltimore and the role he played in helping the Ravens be accepted in Baltimore and a pair of his famous black high tops.  So this idea that the Hall of Fame is trying to erase Baltimore from the history books couldn't be further form the truth.  They acknowledge it where they should but also acknowledge Indianapolis where they should. 

Colts fans today, should be Indianapolis fans. Maybe you have some regional fans from outlying areas, and some bandwagoneers, who have gotten on the Peyton Manning/Andrew Luck/Hot Team bandwagon over the years, but the city is important. Here is a tweet from Jim Irsay himself, " One day , OUR CITY will dance wildly again in The Monster Parade." Obviously, he's talking about Indy , and it's importance. To many of us, Baltimore is also important, and putting the history of the Baltimore Colts in it's proper historical context is paramount. These are historical inaccuracies that need to be corrected.

Who are you to say who should be a fan of what?  Who do you think you are telling people what they can be fans of and what they can't be fans of?  Look around we have several fans here who were fans of the Colts dating back to their Baltimore days.  People who are Colts fans are proud of the Colts history.  They in no way try to pretend like the Baltimore era happened in Indianapolis that always make sure to mention it happened in Baltimore so no they don't try to take credit for it.  Frankly this whole thread goes back to the same issue that some in Baltimore have they can't get over the move.  They are the guy or girl who can't get over getting dumped who keep hoping that their ex will come back even when the Ex has been happily married for years.  You keep moving the target trying to play the role of victim and it's not going to fly here.  You started out saying you couldn't celebrate the history of sports in Baltimore and people here said celebrate it all you want we don't care, then it became well we can't celebrate our ex players and it was pointed out that not only you can but you do have and do.  Now it's well the NFL Hall of Fame is trying to pretend like the Baltimore Colts never happened that couldn't be further from the truth. 

 

Again, when a fan cheers for a team they cheer for the TEAM not the city.  You don't have to like Indianapolis to like the Colts and you don't have to like the Colts to like Indianapolis.  There are several people who like Indianapolis who don't care about the Colts or football at all, heck some even think Indianapolis made a mistake to keep the Colts here and view it as a waste of money.  By the same token there are people who like the Colts who don't happen to like the city of Indianapolis for whatever reason.  The two are not married like you are trying to make it.  Colts fans, regardless of where they live like the Colts and have every right to like the whole history of the team wherever it happened.  By the same token most of those people acknowledge that it happened in two different cities so this idea that you keep going back to that Indianapolis tries to take credit for Baltimore history is false.  There is a difference in a city and a team taking credit for something.  The Colts team takes credit for their history, the city of Indianapolis pretty much only acknowledges what happened in this city to the point several people in Indianapolis didn't like Raymond Berry presenting the Super Bowl trophy last year because he hadn't played in Indianapolis and they viewed the Super Bowl as the cities and not the Colts.

 

All this seems to scream what you really want isn't to be able to celebrate the Colts history in Baltimore as there is no issue with that.  What you really want is to be the only ones who get to celebrate it.  Well guess what that's not going to happen and frankly isn't your call.  You might as well learn to live with it.  Your city while it has the right to celebrate the history they saw doesn't own the history of the Colts franchise.  The Colts franchise owns it and you have no right to say who can and can't be proud of what the Colts accomplished. 

[The Old Crow]

 

This isn't exactly the whole picture. I put the entire history of the Colts in the other thread about the Miami Seahawks. If you are interested.

 

 

Except this is a slap to the countless fans who followed the team to Indy. Who is Baltimore to say they are different teams? Just because Baltimore says so? Baltimore is not anymore important than the fans that continued to root for the team.

 

Baltimore feels disrespected I get that, but the irony is the don't care about disrespecting those who followed the team.

 

Why do you get to say the team THEY watched win the '58, '59, and '68 NFL championship and Super Bowl V is not the same? It's their history and their memories just as much it is Baltimore's.

 

 

I wasn't a fan of the Miami Seahawks, but if they won a title , or had Hall of Famers, it would be fine if they flew it in Miami, or put the Hall of Famers under the Dolphins, or in a seperate section. I just don't get the fixation on Baltimore Football History, and why another city would even care about it. I get the few fans that may have followed the Colts from Baltimore to Indy, and to them it's one history, but trust me, they are in the minority. You're wrong about the city of Baltimore's love for the Colts. Trust me, I could tell you stories of the things Bob Irsay did, that made his son embarrassed, and caused him to cry, as a young boy. The stories are legendary about the franchise swap with the Rams, the Joe Thomas years, shopping them around from 1975 until 1983, going to the press box and calling down plays to Mike McCormick, firing Ted Marchibroda, then backing off when the whole team threatened to boycott, etc. Trust me, I could go on and on, but I won't. I've also stated that Baltimore bears heavy responsibility for the move, and I think the Oakland, Baltimore, and Cleveland moves were all wrong. I would have preferred that Baltimore and Indy got expansion teams, and I think it's long overdue for LA to get an expansion team. Al Davis started all the nonsense, and should be removed from the Hall of Fame.

 

I'm not disrespecting Indy. They now have a great football tradition since 1984. If I was an Indy fan, honestly, I would want no part of the Baltimore history anymore than as an Orioles fan, I would want the history of the St. Louis Browns. I think most people feel this way. It's almost like Bob Irsay buying Fort Mchenry, and putting in a program that the Star Spangled banner was written in Indy. That's how it is in the Hall of Fame , where they tell you Gino Marchetti played for the Indianapolis Colts because some dude from Chicago bought them in 1972.

 

I guess if you like the " Anyplace" Colts, or Joe Schmoe's Colts, you'd follow them anywhere. I just think the history of Baltimore and Indianapolis Football stands on it's own seperately, and to link it, old players and new, titles, Hall of famers, etc., only creates confusion . Like the DVD, it was two seperate, but great eras. Even though I was a Raven's fan, I always said Manning was the best quarterback since Unitas. Don't blame him for that Denver loss. Like Lee Evans dropping Flacco's pass in 2011, Manning wasn't playing safety at the end of the Baltimore playoff game this year. I think Luck will be a fine quarterback in time, but he has a long way to go to match Manning.

[GoColts8818]

You never know. The Super Bowl Five trophy was returned to Baltimore, and the Hall of Fame in Canton may yet bow to pressure and put the old Baltimore Colts under a seperate section, or as an attachment to the Ravens. Baltimore fans have been working on this for years, and it could still happen. This is not a slap at Indy, as Jim Irsay, and the current team, have their own history now, and their own Super Bowl in 2006.  We have lived with the move for 30 years, but we lived without a football team for 12 years, and perservered over Taglibue, his buddy Jack Kent Cooke, and others who told us we would never have a team again. Heck, we had a Baltimore Colts marching band that stayed together for 12 years after the Colts left. That is the kind of determination and perserverence that you see from the Baltimore fan. This Baltimore Colts history has been passed from Grandfather, to father, to son, and is now tightly woven into the current fabric of Raven's history. The Baltimore Sun to this day, still has a weekly section about, where are these old Baltimore Colts. You could go on and on about Robert irsay, but the move occured, and he did what he did. Jim Irsay could go along way by healing the final wounds, and get full closure, with a few small gestures towards Baltimore. If he is into forgiveness like he says he is, his family could avoid the eternal ire that the Modell family faces in Cleveland.

Okay in order for it to be taken away from Irsay one of three people would have to do it.

 

1.  The Commissioner who is hired by the owners.  You really think the Owners are going to hire someone who would strip them of things they paid a great amount of money for? 

 

2.  The Owners themselves.  They aren't going to do it to Jim Irsay because it opens the door for them to lose something they paid a great amount of money for.

 

3.  The Courts System.  Again, the Colts sued the city of Baltimore for trying to name a CFL team the Colts and WON because it was decided that the Colts own the trade mark to that name which means in the eyes of the Courts system the Colts name, colors, and history belongs to Colts franchise which belongs to Jim Irsay.

 

If the Colts name was ever going to go back to Baltimore it would have happened when the Ravens came into the league.  It didn't.  So now the only way it would happen is if Jim Irsay elects to sell it to them and based on what I know about Jim Irsay it doesn't seem to be for sale.

 

Also, after almost 20 years of the Ravens in Baltimore I don't think everyone in Baltimore would want the Colts stuff back if it would cost them the Ravens stuff.  Perhaps most importantly Steve Bisciotti.  He has worked very hard to establish the Ravens and takes great pride in what the Ravens have accomplished in Baltimore and their franchise history. 

 

Again, the NFL Hall of Fame doesn't have a special section for anyone so now being treated like everyone else in the league isn't good enough for you?  You want your own special section for your team?  Sorry not going to happen.  The Hall of Fame displays the busts by the years the players went into the Hall, not by team.  Also on those busts it states ALL the teams the players played for and the years they played for them and for the Baltimore Colts it does say Baltimore on it.  So drop the Hall of Fame bit you couldn't be more wrong on that if you tried. 

 

Again you just seem to want people to feel sorry for you.  "We didn't have a football team for 12 years".  Go cry to Brooklyn who lost their beloved Dodgers and never had them replaced and didn't have a sports team of any kind till the Nets move there this year.  Yet they don't cry nearly as much as Baltimore fans do.  Honestly you would think you are the only city to ever lose a team.  You are just the only city that can't get over it even when you got a new team who by the way has won twice as many Super Bowls as the Colts have since they left Baltimore.  In terms of titles you got the better end of the deal to this point.  That's the thing you got a new team and that's still not good enough for you.  Even if the Colts gave you the team name and colors all we would here then is you took football from us for 12 years. At some point people just stop feeling sorry for you.  For most people that point was reached when you got a new team in much the same way you lost the Colts only difference is now you were playing the role of Indianapolis.  People in Baltimore wont admit to that though because they have spent so many years vilifying Indianapolis and the Irsays that if they admit they did the samething that means they were bad guys too.  So you just tell yourselves you left the colors and team name behind to make yourselves feel better about it.  You know the only people that plays too?  People in Baltimore.  People around the rest of the country go you did the samething and it's not a big deal because they understand it.  You wanted a football team just like Indianapolis did knew you wouldn't get an expansion team so your only chance was to get a current team to move there.  The Browns wanted to come there what were you going to do?  Say no?  They don't see you as doing something evil like Baltimore spent years acting like Indianapolis did. 

 

Also what else do you want Jim Irsay to do?  Short of giving you the team name and colors which isn't going to happen.  He doesn't object to anything Baltimore does to celebrate the old Colts.  He doesn't publically display the old Baltimore history in Indianapolis and has never once said a bad word about football in Baltimore.  In fact check out this article. 

 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/11557831/rss

 

In a moment when Irsay could have gloated about his Colts beating the Ravens in Baltimore in the playoffs what did Jim Irsay do?  Express sympathy to Baltimore fans and said he understands why they were upset.  I am sorry Irsay has done his part.  What's left now is for people in Baltimore to just move on from it and a lot have to their credit.  You have a wonderful new team in Baltimore, well not even really new they have been there close to 20 years.  Go celebrate them and their second Super Bowl and your cities third rather than dwelling on something that isn't going to change.  The Colts moved, almost 30 years ago, by 2015 they will have been in Indianapolis longer than they were in Baltimore, I think it's time to accept they aren't coming back and neither are the team colors, name, or history.  However, the Ravens are writing their own very rewarding history in Baltimore.  I would much rather celebrate if I was a fan than be bitter. 

[The Old Crow]

Okay let's think about this logically, Jim Irsay agreed to return the trophy from Super Bowl V, he has no issue with the Ravens having ex Colts in their Ring of Honor, he had no issue with the Ravens using Ex-Colts wearing Baltimore Colts jackets to help welcome the Ravens to Baltimore, he had no issue with the Marching Colts performing for years, he doesn't care that there is a statue outside of the stadium of a guy with a Horse Shoe on the side of his head.  Yet you really think he's going to draw the line at a banner being hung in the Ravens stadium?

 

Also even if he did he has not power over what the Ravens display in their stadium because it's not his stadium.  I think it's far more likely that the Ravens have elected not to display the banner because they feel like they have done enough to embrace the old Colts fans in Baltimore and they want the Ravens franchise to have it's own identity.  That's what they are trying to build and they know the Ravens didn't win Super Bowl five so hanging a banner for it is taking credit for something they didn't do. 

 

As for the ESPN retrospective again they were celebrating the fact that the COLTS played in that game not the Ravens.  Had they used the Ravens guess what then one of the teams that played in that game would have been left out.  Personally I would have had no issue had they used both Colts and Ravens players for it.  However, Baltimore was not left out as they did interview ex-Baltimore players for it and they didn't try to pass it off as if the Colts played in that game when they were in Indianapolis. 

Have you ever been the Pro-Football Hall of Fame?  I am guessing based on this you haven't.  If you had been you would know that one of the first things you see is a Baltimore Colts Marching Band Drum with a Raymend Berry jersey next to it and it tells the story of the Marching Baltimore Colts Band and the word Indianapolis is not used once.  You would also know the busts are kept in their own room and are not displayed by teams.  They are displayed by the years they went into the Hall of Fame and on the Baltimore Colts players it says Baltimore Colts and the years they played for the Colts and any other teams they played. The only three players in the Hall of Fame with Indianapolis by their busts are Dickerson, Faulk, and Dent.  All other former Colts say Baltimore in front of the Colts.  There is also a special display for the Greatest game ever played with a story about the celebration in Baltimore after it and how it changed the game all next to a Johnny U statue that talks about his time in Baltimore and the role he played in helping the Ravens be accepted in Baltimore and a pair of his famous black high tops.  So this idea that the Hall of Fame is trying to erase Baltimore from the history books couldn't be further form the truth.  They acknowledge it where they should but also acknowledge Indianapolis where they should. 

Who are you to say who should be a fan of what?  Who do you think you are telling people what they can be fans of and what they can't be fans of?  Look around we have several fans here who were fans of the Colts dating back to their Baltimore days.  People who are Colts fans are proud of the Colts history.  They in no way try to pretend like the Baltimore era happened in Indianapolis that always make sure to mention it happened in Baltimore so no they don't try to take credit for it.  Frankly this whole thread goes back to the same issue that some in Baltimore have they can't get over the move.  They are the guy or girl who can't get over getting dumped who keep hoping that their ex will come back even when the Ex has been happily married for years.  You keep moving the target trying to play the role of victim and it's not going to fly here.  You started out saying you couldn't celebrate the history of sports in Baltimore and people here said celebrate it all you want we don't care, then it became well we can't celebrate our ex players and it was pointed out that not only you can but you do have and do.  Now it's well the NFL Hall of Fame is trying to pretend like the Baltimore Colts never happened that couldn't be further from the truth. 

 

Again, when a fan cheers for a team they cheer for the TEAM not the city.  You don't have to like Indianapolis to like the Colts and you don't have to like the Colts to like Indianapolis.  There are several people who like Indianapolis who don't care about the Colts or football at all, heck some even think Indianapolis made a mistake to keep the Colts here and view it as a waste of money.  By the same token there are people who like the Colts who don't happen to like the city of Indianapolis for whatever reason.  The two are not married like you are trying to make it.  Colts fans, regardless of where they live like the Colts and have every right to like the whole history of the team wherever it happened.  By the same token most of those people acknowledge that it happened in two different cities so this idea that you keep going back to that Indianapolis tries to take credit for Baltimore history is false.  There is a difference in a city and a team taking credit for something.  The Colts team takes credit for their history, the city of Indianapolis pretty much only acknowledges what happened in this city to the point several people in Indianapolis didn't like Raymond Berry presenting the Super Bowl trophy last year because he hadn't played in Indianapolis and they viewed the Super Bowl as the cities and not the Colts.

 

All this seems to scream what you really want isn't to be able to celebrate the Colts history in Baltimore as there is no issue with that.  What you really want is to be the only ones who get to celebrate it.  Well guess what that's not going to happen and frankly isn't your call.  You might as well learn to live with it.  Your city while it has the right to celebrate the history they saw doesn't own the history of the Colts franchise.  The Colts franchise owns it and you have no right to say who can and can't be proud of what the Colts accomplished. 

 

 

I have been to the Hall of Fame, and you are right about the busts and the other things. But what we're talking about, and what Johnny objected to, was being listed in the display under Indianapolis Colts, where he never played. He wanted to be under Baltimore.  Look, I like Indianapolis, it's part of my sales territory. I usually stay at that Comfort Inn near the stadium. Great city, fans, team, and all that.  But lets put it in terms we can all understand. The Browns came to Baltimore in 1996. Instead of being the Ravens, they are the Baltimore Browns, which thank god never happened. As a Baltimore fan, suddenly I'm a Brown's guy, who revels in the history of Paul Brown, the Otto Graham teams, the 1964 Championship team, the fumble, the drive, and all the other things Browns. Should I suddenly love the Caviliers and Indians ? I have no affinity to what happened in Cleveland, and wouldn't want any of that stuff in my record books, any more than the man in the moon. They were the Cleveland Browns, and what happened there is not part of my sport's history. I would hate to see Jim Brown under any kind of Baltimore moniker. If I watched a few old Cleveland Browns tapes on You Tube, this is going to make me a Cleveland Browns fan ? I would expect the knowledgable NFL fan to pan my views.  I would view the Baltimore Browns as seperate, and would want no part of their history. I can honestly tell you, I wouldn't want their name either, it should stay in the city. When you get a team, you want to build your own citiy's memories and identity.

 

It was ludicrous having that 1958 ESPN special even talk to current players. Honestly, they should have only talked to fans , coaches, and players who were part of that experience. Honestly, do we really care what some 20 something player from Indianapolis or New York, thinks about a 1958 title game ? It was a flawed program that could have been a heck of alot better. I have problems with ESPN anyway, because of their New York and Boston bias, but that's a story for another day.

 

Most in Baltimore also didn't like the Raymond Berry presentation. The presentation would have been better served with an old Indianapolis Colt. Your city's football tradition is sound enough you don't need the Baltimore years anymore.

 

As far as fans go, they can support whoever they like, but I'm just dubious of the bandwagon fan. These are they types of fans that are from Indiana, for example, that hop on the Lakers bandwagon because they won so many titles. If your city doesn't have a team, or if it was your father's team , or something, that is more understandable. I'll just never undertsand a fan that was born and raised in an area, say baltimore, and becomes a Steelers fan. I would question if they were a true NFL fan, or an NFL partier. Just my opinion.

[ColtsBlueFL]

I think it would have been nice had he just moved to Indianapolis, and left all the records and logos back in Baltimore. It just would have been a cleaner break, and that is why the NFL forced Modell to let Cleveland keep the Browns colors and history. I'm not sure I would want a team named after Paul Brown, although he was a heck of a coach.

 

 

As horse racing is big in Baltimore, and not quite as big in Indy, the Colts nickname in Indy, is similar to the Utah Jazz who moved from New Orleans. I think the nickname should fit the city and state where the team plays in.

 

Would have been a complete break.. Have to come up with new logos and uni's and all in just a few months.  but who owns the L.A. Rams history.... Los Angeles?  I think not.  It resides in St. Louis.  In fact, the Cleveland Rams history resides in old St. a Looooooey too.  The Oakland Raiders own all Raiders history, LA and Oakland?  I believe they do.  It's nice if the logo and name fit the city, but if the original city cannot keep their team for whatever reason, then they forfeit the right to keep all team attributes and only let just the team players and organizational staff go.  Folks know Baltimore won NFL championships and won and lost in SB's.  They know Indy Colts Won / Lost in SB's.  But it was still Colts organization, and a decent chunk of it under Bob/Jim Irsay ownership.  The city can tout the accomplishments of the organization while it was in their town and supported by the local/regional fans.  But I feel no reason to extend any association to the Ravens.  None. Nada. Zip. Zilch.  Baltimore can say they won 3 SB  titles, but the Balt Colts can't, and the Balt Ravens cant.  Period.

[The Old Crow]

Okay in order for it to be taken away from Irsay one of three people would have to do it.

 

1.  The Commissioner who is hired by the owners.  You really think the Owners are going to hire someone who would strip them of things they paid a great amount of money for? 

 

2.  The Owners themselves.  They aren't going to do it to Jim Irsay because it opens the door for them to lose something they paid a great amount of money for.

 

3.  The Courts System.  Again, the Colts sued the city of Baltimore for trying to name a CFL team the Colts and WON because it was decided that the Colts own the trade mark to that name which means in the eyes of the Courts system the Colts name, colors, and history belongs to Colts franchise which belongs to Jim Irsay.

 

If the Colts name was ever going to go back to Baltimore it would have happened when the Ravens came into the league.  It didn't.  So now the only way it would happen is if Jim Irsay elects to sell it to them and based on what I know about Jim Irsay it doesn't seem to be for sale.

 

Also, after almost 20 years of the Ravens in Baltimore I don't think everyone in Baltimore would want the Colts stuff back if it would cost them the Ravens stuff.  Perhaps most importantly Steve Bisciotti.  He has worked very hard to establish the Ravens and takes great pride in what the Ravens have accomplished in Baltimore and their franchise history. 

 

Again, the NFL Hall of Fame doesn't have a special section for anyone so now being treated like everyone else in the league isn't good enough for you?  You want your own special section for your team?  Sorry not going to happen.  The Hall of Fame displays the busts by the years the players went into the Hall, not by team.  Also on those busts it states ALL the teams the players played for and the years they played for them and for the Baltimore Colts it does say Baltimore on it.  So drop the Hall of Fame bit you couldn't be more wrong on that if you tried. 

 

Again you just seem to want people to feel sorry for you.  "We didn't have a football team for 12 years".  Go cry to Brooklyn who lost their beloved Dodgers and never had them replaced and didn't have a sports team of any kind till the Nets move there this year.  Yet they don't cry nearly as much as Baltimore fans do.  Honestly you would think you are the only city to ever lose a team.  You are just the only city that can't get over it even when you got a new team who by the way has won twice as many Super Bowls as the Colts have since they left Baltimore.  In terms of titles you got the better end of the deal to this point.  That's the thing you got a new team and that's still not good enough for you.  Even if the Colts gave you the team name and colors all we would here then is you took football from us for 12 years. At some point people just stop feeling sorry for you.  For most people that point was reached when you got a new team in much the same way you lost the Colts only difference is now you were playing the role of Indianapolis.  People in Baltimore wont admit to that though because they have spent so many years vilifying Indianapolis and the Irsays that if they admit they did the samething that means they were bad guys too.  So you just tell yourselves you left the colors and team name behind to make yourselves feel better about it.  You know the only people that plays too?  People in Baltimore.  People around the rest of the country go you did the samething and it's not a big deal because they understand it.  You wanted a football team just like Indianapolis did knew you wouldn't get an expansion team so your only chance was to get a current team to move there.  The Browns wanted to come there what were you going to do?  Say no?  They don't see you as doing something evil like Baltimore spent years acting like Indianapolis did. 

 

Also what else do you want Jim Irsay to do?  Short of giving you the team name and colors which isn't going to happen.  He doesn't object to anything Baltimore does to celebrate the old Colts.  He doesn't publically display the old Baltimore history in Indianapolis and has never once said a bad word about football in Baltimore.  In fact check out this article. 

 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/11557831/rss

 

In a moment when Irsay could have gloated about his Colts beating the Ravens in Baltimore in the playoffs what did Jim Irsay do?  Express sympathy to Baltimore fans and said he understands why they were upset.  I am sorry Irsay has done his part.  What's left now is for people in Baltimore to just move on from it and a lot have to their credit.  You have a wonderful new team in Baltimore, well not even really new they have been there close to 20 years.  Go celebrate them and their second Super Bowl and your cities third rather than dwelling on something that isn't going to change.  The Colts moved, almost 30 years ago, by 2015 they will have been in Indianapolis longer than they were in Baltimore, I think it's time to accept they aren't coming back and neither are the team colors, name, or history.  However, the Ravens are writing their own very rewarding history in Baltimore.  I would much rather celebrate if I was a fan than be bitter. 

 

You make some good points but:

 

1. I don't think the majority of people in Baltimore want the Colts colors and logos back. We have the Ravens, and we just view the Indy Colts as a seperate franchise. The Hall of Fame and acknowledgment of the Championships by the NFL are the issue.

 

2. Jim Irsay got what he paid for, a team, but he doesn't own history.

 

3. The court in the CFL case ruled on the Colt's name and logo.

 

Your wrong about Steve Biscotti, he was a big Colt's fan , like many of us , still is. He would welcome more ways to celebrate the old Colts, as well as old and current Ravens. What owner would put Baltimore Football history on the Raven's official web iste, if this wasn't true.

 

Brooklyn, in a way, did get a team back, the New York Mets in 1962. Baltimore waited alot longer than Brooklyn or Cleveland.

 

I read that article from Jim Irsay about forgiveness, etc. Yes, he didn't gloat, not did Mr. Biscotti when the Ravens beat the Colts this year. I'm just suggesting ways for Mr. Irsay to improve his image further, in the NFL , and in Baltimore. Even though he wasn't involved, his name, and the family's name, is still linked to the father. No one is bitter. Two Super bowls in sixteen years can make you humble, and magnamous.

 

One other thing, both Indianapolis and Baltimore built stadiums to lure these teams. I just think there should be a set of rules, if you move, you start fresh. Leave behing the records, logos, history, etc. How wierd was it at a Titan's game to see them in retro Houston Oilers uniforms ? It made about as much sense as the New orlean's Jazz becoming the Utah Jazz. I know they have alot of Jazz music history in Salt Lake City !

[The Old Crow]

Would have been a complete break.. Have to come up with new logos and uni's and all in just a few months.  but who owns the L.A. Rams history.... Los Angeles?  I think not.  It resides in St. Louis.  In fact, the Cleveland Rams history resides in old St. a Looooooey too.  The Oakland Raiders own all Raiders history, LA and Oakland?  I believe they do.  It's nice if the logo and name fit the city, but if the original city cannot keep their team for whatever reason, then they forfeit the right to keep all team attributes and only let just the team players and organizational staff go.  Folks know Baltimore won NFL championships and won and lost in SB's.  They know Indy Colts Won / Lost in SB's.  But it was still Colts organization, and a decent chunk of it under Bob/Jim Irsay ownership.  The city can tout the accomplishments of the organization while it was in their town and supported by the local/regional fans.  But I feel no reason to extend any association to the Ravens.  None. Nada. Zip. Zilch.  Baltimore can say they won 3 SB  titles, but the Balt Colts can't, and the Balt Ravens cant.  Period.

 

 

The association with the Ravens is because there are only really two places we can celebrate the history of our old Colts in their proper context. One is at Raven's stadium with Baltimore Football fans, and the second place is the Sports Legend's at Camden Yards Museum. They have Colts and Raven's displays there as part of our football history. If you love the history of the Baltimore Colts, it's a great place to visit. Basically, there has to be an association to the Ravens, because that is the Baltimore football team, and where past Baltimore players celebrate.

 

The LA Rams records should be dormant in LA, until another team comes. Same goes for the Cardinal records. I think it just creates confusion. If a team gets an expansion team, say in LA, they would have the option of picking up the old LA Ram's history. It would be better than saying the fearsome foursome played for the St. Louis Rams. Just doesn't make sense.

 

Just to let you guys know, there is ample NFL precedent where a franchise moved, but the two cities were considered seperate franchises:

 

Deluth Eskimos to Orange NJ Tornados seperate franchises, but same players.

Boston Yanks to New York Bulldogs :separate franchise, but same owner and players.

 

Baltimore and Indianapolis  ; Should be seperate franchise, same owner and players.

 

It should be the same here. All the NFL has to do is qualify this as a quasi-move, like other ones in NFL history, and seperate the histories and franchises. Those who want to celebrate both, obviously can do so in each city.

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

And the band played on . 

[ColtsBlueFL]

You never know. The Super Bowl Five trophy was returned to Baltimore, and the Hall of Fame in Canton may yet bow to pressure and put the old Baltimore Colts under a seperate section, or as an attachment to the Ravens.

 

This isn't fully correct.  Baltimore doesn't have the original SB trophy as Carroll Rosenbloom took that with him to L.A. when he traded franchises with Irsay.  Baltimore got a 'copy' of the trophy to display. It is my understanding now Tiffany & Co. makes 2, in case of a disaster of some kind (damaged in celebration, transporting, stolen, etc...)  just not back then. Here is what I found-

 

"Only one championship team doesn't have its original trophy. The Baltimore Colts (who moved to Indianapolis in 1984) had to order a copy of the Lombardi from Tiffany's after Carroll Rosenbloom--who owned the team when it won Super Bowl V--took the trophy with him when he traded the Colts for the Los Angeles Rams. Although the Colts are now in Indianapolis, the team's copy of the trophy is still on display in Baltimore.'

 

http://www.recognitionisrewarding.com/super_bowl.cfm

 

 

More info-

 

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1817&dat=19800226&id=0AgdAAAAIBAJ&sjid=5p4EAAAAIBAJ&pg=3748,5487485

 

So, the Indy Colts got the replica, and it was delivered.  It was surrenderd as part of court settlement. The final puzzle piece-

 

http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/020104/jag_14695993.shtml

 

So it appears to me that not only do the St. Louis Rams have Cleveland Rams and L.A. Rams history, they also have the coup de grace with the crown jewel icon of Baltimore Colts history too!!  LOL

 

 

Baltimore fans have been working on this for years, and it could still happen. This is not a slap at Indy, as Jim Irsay, and the current team, have their own history now, and their own Super Bowl in 2006.  We have lived with the move for 30 years, but we lived without a football team for 12 years, and perservered over Taglibue, his buddy Jack Kent Cooke, and others who told us we would never have a team again. Heck, we had a Baltimore Colts marching band that stayed together for 12 years after the Colts left. That is the kind of determination and perserverence that you see from the Baltimore fan. This Baltimore Colts history has been passed from Grandfather, to father, to son, and is now tightly woven into the current fabric of Raven's history. The Baltimore Sun to this day, still has a weekly section about, where are these old Baltimore Colts. You could go on and on about Robert irsay, but the move occured, and he did what he did. Jim Irsay could go along way by healing the final wounds, and get full closure, with a few small gestures towards Baltimore. If he is into forgiveness like he says he is, his family could avoid the eternal ire that the Modell family faces in Cleveland.

 

    Go look at you replica and read an article in the Sun about 'where is Rick Volk now?"        I'm tired of the Baltimore fan trying to 'steal a 'Franchises' history saying it only belongs to the city.          

[bayone]

Brooklyn, in a way, did get a team back, the New York Mets in 1962. Baltimore waited alot longer than Brooklyn or Cleveland.

 

 !

 

 

 d. 

 

Again you just seem to want people to feel sorry for you.  "We didn't have a football team for 12 years".  Go cry to Brooklyn who lost their beloved Dodgers and never had them replaced and didn't have a sports team of any kind till the Nets move there this year.  Yet they don't cry nearly as much as Baltimore fans do.  Honestly you would think you are the only city to ever lose a team.  You are just the only city that can't get over it even when you got a new team who by the way has won twice as many Super Bowls as the Colts have since they left Baltimore.   

 

I was 4 years 8 months or so old and still traumatic my bums  left,

 

Mets  never replaced them in Brooklynite hearts, nor the minor league team that now plays along coney island boardwalk & nets are a different sport, Brooklyn alone is the 4th largest city in america population wise if it was its own city

 

Dodgers were offered a new stadium to stay, but it was were the Mets are, O'Mally only wanted to keep the team in Downtown Brooklyn at flushing avenue near manhatan

 

He refused the mayors terms of moving to Queens where Mets are in Flushing Queens , nest to the tennis courts and where 64 world fair was, an area  , not an avenue

 

1 of my most prized posseitions is is an unused ticket from the last home game Dodgers played at ebbets field, its 1 of less than 10 known & graded

 

Its encased in plastic, has been authenticated by the proper authorites and given the a rating of 7 of 10, there is only 1 graded 8

 

The grating and certificate of authenricity is encased  within as well

 

I won it at an auction

[ColtsBlueFL]

I was 4 years 8 months or so old and still traumatic my bums  left,

 

Mets  never replaced them in Brooklynite hearts, nor the minor league team that now plays along coney island boardwalk & nets are a different sport, Brooklyn alone is the 4th largest city in america population wise if it was its own city

 

Dodgers were offered a new stadium to stay, but it was were the Mets are, O'Mally only wanted to keep the team in Downtown Brooklyn at flushing avenue near manhatan

 

He refused the mayors terms of moving to Queens where Mets are in Flushing Queens , nest to the tennis courts and where 64 world fair was, an area  , not an avenue

 

1 of my most prized posseitions is is an unused ticket from the last home game Dodgers played at ebbets field, its 1 of less than 10 known & graded

 

Its encased in plastic, has been authenticated by the proper authorites and given the a rating of 7 of 10, there is only 1 graded 8

 

The grating and certificate of authenricity is encased  within as well

 

I won it at an auction

 

Wow!

[bayone]

Wow!

 

In My heart its up there with my best 2 footballs, A unitas signed and inscribed 1 of  500 footballs where he inscribed 47 consecutive game TD passes & my  Peyton  sign & inscribed SB 41 MVP

 

I put th ose 3  above  in my heart  above the more valuable proibably   signed bat by TED WILLIAMS and Bill terry, matching balls and matching picture , the last two  400 hitters, & the rest of my stuff , like my 69  met team bat ,,m my Brooklyn Dodger Bat with some signatures, My Duke Snider Bat thats he also wrote the Duke Of Flatbush,  my many many dodger signed balls, even my Dimagio signed balls  , my HOF bat with about 10 old signatures like Kaline etc

 

My 500 HR  ball, My Perfect gamer ball , etc etc etc

 

& a host of other great meorabelia, both football & baseball

 

& in the aboive that u commented on I meant Flatbush avenue Brooklyn , not Flushing aven, Im Bad

 

U know what i do miss, i somehow lost a 45 RPM record of Koufax 's perfect game where he struck out the last 6 players

 

I love all my Colts , both Balt & Indy,I will not go back on my childhood memoriers due to a move of a city to citry

 

u do what all u want, I know where my heart lies

[ColtsBlueFL]

^ ^ ^ ^

 

I can never look at my signed Tom Seaver - HOF baseball or other signed Reds,Colts stuff the same again!  Wow!

[The Old Crow]

This isn't fully correct.  Baltimore doesn't have the original SB trophy as Carroll Rosenbloom took that with him to L.A. when he traded franchises with Irsay.  Baltimore got a 'copy' of the trophy to display. It is my understanding now Tiffany & Co. makes 2, in case of a disaster of some kind (damaged in celebration, transporting, stolen, etc...)  just not back then. Here is what I found-

 

"Only one championship team doesn't have its original trophy. The Baltimore Colts (who moved to Indianapolis in 1984) had to order a copy of the Lombardi from Tiffany's after Carroll Rosenbloom--who owned the team when it won Super Bowl V--took the trophy with him when he traded the Colts for the Los Angeles Rams. Although the Colts are now in Indianapolis, the team's copy of the trophy is still on display in Baltimore.'

 

http://www.recognitionisrewarding.com/super_bowl.cfm

 

 

More info-

 

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1817&dat=19800226&id=0AgdAAAAIBAJ&sjid=5p4EAAAAIBAJ&pg=3748,5487485

 

So, the Indy Colts got the replica, and it was delivered.  It was surrenderd as part of court settlement. The final puzzle piece-

 

http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/020104/jag_14695993.shtml

 

So it appears to me that not only do the St. Louis Rams have Cleveland Rams and L.A. Rams history, they also have the coup de grace with the crown jewel icon of Baltimore Colts history too!!  LOL

 

 

 

    Go look at you replica and read an article in the Sun about 'where is Rick Volk now?"        I'm tired of the Baltimore fan trying to 'steal a 'Franchises' history saying it only belongs to the city.          

 

You are not totally right. Bob Irsay blew a gasket when he found out that Carroll Rosenbloom took the original Super Bowl trophy. They sued to get it back, but the NFL ordered a replica made, because I don't think they had the stomach to sue Rosenbloom. Anyway, the NFL commissioned a replica, and awarded it to Baltimore, and not Indianapolis as part of the settlement. Since Bob Irsay originally bought the LA Rams and swapped it for the Colts, does he have St. Louis Ram's history also ! LOL

[The Old Crow]

I was 4 years 8 months or so old and still traumatic my bums  left,

 

Mets  never replaced them in Brooklynite hearts, nor the minor league team that now plays along coney island boardwalk & nets are a different sport, Brooklyn alone is the 4th largest city in america population wise if it was its own city

 

Dodgers were offered a new stadium to stay, but it was were the Mets are, O'Mally only wanted to keep the team in Downtown Brooklyn at flushing avenue near manhatan

 

He refused the mayors terms of moving to Queens where Mets are in Flushing Queens , nest to the tennis courts and where 64 world fair was, an area  , not an avenue

 

1 of my most prized posseitions is is an unused ticket from the last home game Dodgers played at ebbets field, its 1 of less than 10 known & graded

 

Its encased in plastic, has been authenticated by the proper authorites and given the a rating of 7 of 10, there is only 1 graded 8

 

The grating and certificate of authenricity is encased  within as well

 

I won it at an auction

 

 

I feel your pain. Brooklyn is the closest example of what happened to the Baltimore Colts. Another great team with a storied history.  O'Malley, when he left for LA, should have left all the records, history, and logos, and the Mets should have become the new Brooklyn Dodgers, in a new Ebbetts Field. Not the perfect scenario, but better than pretending Jackie Robinson was a LA Dodger !

[bayone]

I feel your pain. Brooklyn is the closest example of what happened to the Baltimore Colts. Another great team with a storied history.  O'Malley, when he left for LA, should have left all the records, history, and logos, and the Mets should have become the new Brooklyn Dodgers, in a new Ebbetts Field. Not the perfect scenario, but better than pretending Jackie Robinson was a LA Dodger !

 

thanks

 

Like all things, us mortals are left behind by the idle rich & powerful

 

Yet for what its worth, am still a dodger fan, last great Memory was when beat oakland for world series with  Kurt Gibson coming off the bench to hit a pinch hit home run & limping around the bases

[The Old Crow]

In My heart its up there with my best 2 footballs, A unitas signed and inscribed 1 of  500 footballs where he inscribed 47 consecutive game TD passes & my  Peyton  sign & inscribed SB 41 MVP

 

I put th ose 3  above  in my heart  above the more valuable proibably   signed bat by TED WILLIAMS and Bill terry, matching balls and matching picture , the last two  400 hitters, & the rest of my stuff , like my 69  met team bat ,,m my Brooklyn Dodger Bat with some signatures, My Duke Snider Bat thats he also wrote the Duke Of Flatbush,  my many many dodger signed balls, even my Dimagio signed balls  , my HOF bat with about 10 old signatures like Kaline etc

 

My 500 HR  ball, My Perfect gamer ball , etc etc etc

 

& a host of other great meorabelia, both football & baseball

 

& in the aboive that u commented on I meant Flatbush avenue Brooklyn , not Flushing aven, Im Bad

 

U know what i do miss, i somehow lost a 45 RPM record of Koufax 's perfect game where he struck out the last 6 players

 

I love all my Colts , both Balt & Indy,I will not go back on my childhood memoriers due to a move of a city to citry

 

u do what all u want, I know where my heart lies

 

This is the general sports collector category of people who collect all sports memorabilia. It's a great collection, but are you Detroit, New Yrk, Baltimore , Indy, Brooklyn, or just a collector of all sports memorabilia ?

[The Old Crow]

thanks

 

Like all things, us mortals are left behind by the idle rich & powerful

 

 

What happened to Brroklyn was a travesty. That was a golden era of baseball in New York with the Yankees, Dodgers, and Giants. The glow of that era , and history, will never be forgotten. It was just magical. I'm glad you guys got a basketball team, but I wish they had put the Mets directly in Brooklyn. Heck, you would have gotten a World Series win over my 1969 Orioles !

[bayone]

This is the general sports collector category of people who collect all sports memorabilia. It's a great collection, but are you Detroit, New Yrk, Baltimore , Indy, Brooklyn, or just a collector of all sports memorabilia ?

 

Just Baseball & football

 

Mainly Dodgers & Colts that i bought / got personally

 

But had chance to get alot of baseballs, bats and framed pictures ( some football like Montana &  Walter payton, jim brown & OJ ) all signed , all quite famous 

 

& uniforms signed by walter Payton, Nolan Ryan , & Johhny Bench on the cheap by relative liquidating 

 

Now all of these came with a certification of authenticity before grading services were known and really are not worth the paper written on for todays collector & honestly dont even know where all those certificates are, though  , but they give me pleasure  most bought when got disabled in late 1980's some after & was just something i was doing that gave enjoyment,, If needed I am sure will pass verification process 

 

The Dodger ticket and the 2 footballs noted I bought in recent years ,as did  slabbed and graded 58 Colt team and many 58 players cards of varying years both before 58 & after all slabbed & graded

 

However the 1 item really wanted my cousin that lives near me  decided to keep, hows this football, his brother went to College I believe and was a roommate for awhile with John Riggins, so Riggins invited him to a HOF ceremony and told him to bring or buy there as many footballs as he can, anyway u should see the HOF football signatures and as he doesnt care about such, he got them for his brother, Now thats an item , no certificate but as I said I know the history on all my itemns so know real

[bayone]

What happened to Brroklyn was a travesty. That was a golden era of baseball in New York with the Yankees, Dodgers, and Giants. The glow of that era , and history, will never be forgotten. It was just magical. I'm glad you guys got a basketball team, but I wish they had put the Mets directly in Brooklyn. Heck, you would have gotten a World Series win over my 1969 Orioles !

 

I have a Brooks Robinson Ball, my favorite 3rd baseman of all time

 

Nice Chjaatting, but must go now

 

My other favorite stuff , all my Rock Concert Posters , all mint all from the 60 / 70 's I bought, & museaum mounted and insured, Most are  Gratefdul Dead buit some great Hendrix ones , doors, who etc

[ColtsBlueFL]

You are not totally right. Bob Irsay blew a gasket when he found out that Carroll Rosenbloom took the original Super Bowl trophy. They sued to get it back, but the NFL ordered a replica made, because I don't think they had the stomach to sue Rosenbloom. Anyway, the NFL commissioned a replica, and awarded it to Baltimore, and not Indianapolis as part of the settlement. Since Bob Irsay originally bought the LA Rams and swapped it for the Colts, does he have St. Louis Ram's history also ! LOL

 you got it wrong again. they gave it to the Colts! (while still in Baltimore!, not Baltimore!!)  The Colts (in Indy) gave the replica to Baltimore  as part of the 'moving the franchise issue'  court settlement.

 

"When the Colts complained to former commissioner Pete Rozelle, he didn't want to hassle with Rosenbloom, who had a stormy relationship with the commissioner. So Rozelle authorized a replica to be made for the Colts.

That trophy was hauled off to Indianapolis on March 28, 1984, when the Colts made their move in the middle of the night.

Although the Indianapolis team kept the Colts' name, logo and all the records, they returned the trophy to the city of Baltimore as part of a settlement of a lawsuit over the move."

 

Bob swapped histories and franchises.  You would have them change logos and players, yet keep their own prior histories?  Uhhh...... NO.

[Warhorse]

Mexico called.....they want their Texas back.

[bayone]

What happened to Brroklyn was a travesty. That was a golden era of baseball in New York with the Yankees, Dodgers, and Giants. The glow of that era , and history, will never be forgotten. It was just magical. I'm glad you guys got a basketball team, but I wish they had put the Mets directly in Brooklyn. Heck, you would have gotten a World Series win over my 1969 Orioles !

 

I have a beautiful signed lithograph bought years back when lived in brooklyn of Mantle/ Sniider & Mays

 

and at that time  I also bought a plague with  5 Brokjlyn dodgers signed photos, surrounding an insert thats inscribed the boys of summer, all signatures look as knew

 

Now really must go

[ColtsBlueFL]

thanks

 

Like all things, us mortals are left behind by the idle rich & powerful

 

Yet for what its worth, am still a dodger fan, last great Memory was when beat oakland for world series with  Kurt Gibson coming off the bench to hit a pinch hit home run & limping around the bases

 

Jack Buck on radio after Kirk Gibson's home run, but overdubbed on the television footage of same- "I can't believe what I just saw!?!"  off in the distance- Vin Scully-  wut?

 

I loved Vin Scully as much as the elder Jack Buck.  It's too bad that TV commercial ruined the moment and two announcers in one swing.  

[The Old Crow]

I have a Brooks Robinson Ball, my favorite 3rd baseman of all time

 

Nice Chjaatting, but must go now

 

My other favorite stuff , all my Rock Concert Posters , all mint all from the 60 / 70 's I bought, & museaum mounted and insured, Most are  Gratefdul Dead buit some great Hendrix ones , doors, who etc

 

 

Some great stuff, and a great collection to be sure.