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Mr. Clutch on his way out?

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FanFromtheWasteland Active Roster

FanFromtheWasteland

Posted
Posted

Actually, I been sayin he "ain't" that good for the past three years including this season. When he's up to kick I fear a miss, every time.

How has that been working for you?

Year Attmp Made %

2012 6 4 missed 2 66.7

2011 27 23 missed 4 85.2

2010 28 26 missed 2 92.9

2009 9 7 missed 2 77.8

Yeah that is really terrible. Can’t understand why he is still on the team

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Indyfan4life Ring of Honor

Indyfan4life

Posted
Posted

Time doesn't stand still for anyone.

I'm aware of this, however I feel like this board is quick to jump the gun on anything. AV misses a couple of kicks and we should cut him. That's why I stated in a previous thread that until he starts missing multiple kicks, rather it be in a single game, or throughout the course of this season, I feel like there shouldn't be any talk of cutting him.

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ruksak Walk On

ruksak

Posted
Posted

I'm aware of this, however I feel like this board is quick to jump the gun on anything. AV misses a couple of kicks and we should cut him. That's why I stated in a previous thread that until he starts missing multiple kicks, rather it be in a single game, or throughout the course of this season, I feel like there shouldn't be any talk of cutting him.

I've been ready to move on for years. I understand what you mean by the fickle masses that love a player one day and are calling for his head the next. However, that's not me. There is a very reasonable call for us perhaps needing to move on at this point.

As another poster said, I feel that he's going to miss anything over 40 yards every time, though his stats say otherwise.

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Indyfan4life Ring of Honor

Indyfan4life

Posted
Posted

I've been ready to move on for years. I understand what you mean by the fickle masses that love a player one day and are calling for his head the next. However, that's not me. There is a very reasonable call for us perhaps needing to move on at this point.

As another poster said, I feel that he's going to miss anything over 40 yards every time, though his stats say otherwise.

I do tend to feel that way more than I should, but as Colts fans it seems common with us (Liquored-up kicker). I honestly imagine him being cut, or retiring at the end of this season rather it be to age, or just not having it anymore.

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FireJimCaldwell Walk On

FireJimCaldwell

Posted
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He's a vested veteran so he's guaranteed his salary whether he's cut or not, so again, there is no financial gain in cutting him.

One could argue for/against cutting him in the previous purging done this off-season and both sides would have fair points.

Unless his production drops off quite a bit or an outstanding kicker hits the market who has similar production/cheaper rate, or there is a solution in the draft, or if they move Mcafee to kicker and sign a punter. He could still be here next year.

Here is his production.

adamsummary.jpg

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T Y Goodbye Walk On

T Y Goodbye

Posted
Posted

Actually, I been sayin he "ain't" that good for the past three years including this season. When he's up to kick I fear a miss, every time.

***Disclaimer..I am in no way saying that these two even compare but..****

He brings me fear too, it reminds me too much of when Vanderjagt would come out for a game winning FG.

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Andy Walk On

Andy

Posted
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He seems to miss when it counts as well. SD comes to mind.

Did you just call Adam Vinatiieri not clutch? That's funny, 2 SB winning kicks and 4 game winning or to take the lead FGs in the last 3 years, and really we can say 2 years, because last year, the Colts never really had too many really tight games that were decided by 4 points or less.

The clutchness is still there.

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oldunclemark Walk On

oldunclemark

Posted
Posted

This is silly..

Adam Vinatieri is one of the top kickers in the NFL...

He also made the kick that out them ahead last week...

Its not a choke if you make the same kick minutes later. Every kick you miss isnt a choke

..somebody was just stumbling around for something to wirte during a bye week...

You do not want you punter, placekicker and kickoff man to be the same guy..

You are far too vulnerable to injury at that point

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GoColts8818 Ring of Honor

GoColts8818

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I went back and looked at Adam since he came to Indianapolis in particular I went back and looked at games we lost in which he missed a kick here is what I got:

2006: He missed four kicks all year and only one in a game we lost. The game we lost we did lose 20-17 to the Titans.

2007: He missed six including five in a three game span. Again only one came in a game we lost and that is the previously mentioned Chargers game in which he missed two. He rebounded from that to hit the game winner the very next week and only missed two field goals the rest of the season including not missing again after the KC game the following week after the Chargers game.

2008: He missed five kicks. Only one came in a game we lost and that is a game we lost 34 to 14 so his kick didn't make a difference.

2009: Kinda a wash because he was hurt most of the year but only missed two kicks the Colts won both games.

2010: missed two kicks both in the same game and the Colts won that game over the Redskins

2011: Missed four kicks three came in games the Colts lost all three we lost by a touchdown or more again his misses didn't impact the outcome of the game.

2012: Missed two kicks in two games both games we lost by more than three points again didn't impact the outcome of the game.

Worth also mentioning since coming to Indianapolis Adam is 19 of 20 on field goals in the playoffs the lone miss coming in the Super Bowl vs. the Bears his first year here.

So really you can point to two games in which Adam has missed a kick that it had an impact on the loss. The Titans game his first year here and the Chargers game we lost in 2008. Frankly most of his misses have come in games the Colts won. Over that time he is 9 of 10 in game winning situations and that's not counting the Jags game and the Jets playoff games that his kicks gave the Colts the lead and the defense blew it and the Colts never saw the ball again.

So if you aren't comfortable with Adam in game winning situations I think that means you are like me you are just nervous about any field goal because there is nothing based on numbers that says we should be. He's not like Vandy that can point four or five misses in key situations.

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esmort Practice Squad

esmort

Posted
Posted
I went back and looked at Adam since he came to Indianapolis in particular I went back and looked at games we lost in which he missed a kick here is what I got:

2006:  He missed four kicks all year and only one in a game we lost.  The game we lost we did lose 20-17 to the Titans.

2007:  He missed six including five in a three game span.  Again only one came in a game we lost and that is the previously mentioned Chargers game in which he missed two.  He rebounded from that to hit the game winner the very next week and only missed two field goals the rest of the season including not missing again after the KC game the following week after the Chargers game.

2008:  He missed five kicks.  Only one came in a game we lost and that is a game we lost 34 to 14 so his kick didn't make a difference.

2009:  Kinda a wash because he was hurt most of the year but only missed two kicks the Colts won both games.

2010:  missed two kicks both in the same game and the Colts won that game over the Redskins

2011:  Missed four kicks three came in games the Colts lost all three we lost by a touchdown or more again his misses didn't impact the outcome of the game.

2012:  Missed two kicks in two games both games we lost by more than three points again didn't impact the outcome of the game.

Worth also mentioning since coming to Indianapolis Adam is 19 of 20 on field goals in the playoffs the lone miss coming in the Super Bowl vs. the Bears his first year here.

So really you can point to two games in which Adam has missed a kick that it had an impact on the loss.  The Titans game his first year here and the Chargers game we lost in 2008.  Frankly most of his misses have come in games the Colts won.  Over that time he is 9 of 10 in game winning situations and that's not counting the Jags game and the Jets playoff games that his kicks gave the Colts the lead and the defense blew it and the Colts never saw the ball again.

So if you aren't comfortable with Adam in game winning situations I think that means you are like me you are just nervous about any field goal because there is nothing based on numbers that says we should be.  He's not like Vandy that can point four or five misses in key situations.

Im not one of the people who think we should cut AV (especially in the middle of the season).  However, most of the time I don't think you can determine whether a mid game missed kick effected the game based solely on the final score; because even though the final score may be separated by more than a field goal its hard to determine how that midgame missed field goal changed the strategy and play calling by both teams afterwards.

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GoColts8818 Ring of Honor

GoColts8818

Posted
Posted

Im not one of the people who think we should cut AV (especially in the middle of the season). However, most of the time I don't think you can determine whether a mid game missed kick effected the game based solely on the final score; because even though the final score may be separated by more than a field goal its hard to determine how that midgame missed field goal changed the strategy and play calling by both teams afterwards.

That's kinda my point he hasn't missed many kicks in games we've lost. From 2006 threw 2010 he only missed three kicks in games we lost and two of those games are the games he would have made a difference in. We lost 34-14 in the other to the Packers. Adam's miss wasn't a swing point in that game. Manning's pick six was that.

Last year he missed kicks in three games we lost. Again, Adam was not the reason we lost those games. Those games was the 34-7 lose to the Texans in the season opener, the 24-17 lose to the Bucs, and 27-17 loss to the Bengals. Clearly The Texans game it didn't even come close to mattering. In the other two games the team would have needed to execute on their later drives which they didn't for the Adam kicks to really matter.

This year he's missed in two games we lost. The Bears game while the kick would have been nice to have points it wouldn't have changed much and I'll sight the last two games when we scored touchdowns on our last drives of the half and we still came out and were stone cold in the second half. There is another issue than Adam missing the kicks. In the Jags game the kick he missed he got a do over on in almost the exact same situation a minute later and hit the kick. So I don't think that really changed the game.

The vast majority of Adam's misses have come in games the Colts won. So the idea that Adam hasn't come threw when we needed him as the person I was originally responding too suggested is a bit silly.

I also think the idea that Adam isn't what he used to be can't be supported by numbers. He has a higher career % of made field goals since leaving New England and coming to Indianapolis and he's had a higher a percentage of makes in the past three years than he has in his time in Indianapolis suggesting he's honestly gotten better with time. So that's why I think people need to chill on their Adam hate and stop trying to see what they want to see him about him struggling (not saying you are doing that.)

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Colt Following Walk On

Colt Following

Posted
Posted

I went back and looked at Adam since he came to Indianapolis in particular I went back and looked at games we lost in which he missed a kick here is what I got:

2006: He missed four kicks all year and only one in a game we lost. The game we lost we did lose 20-17 to the Titans.

2007: He missed six including five in a three game span. Again only one came in a game we lost and that is the previously mentioned Chargers game in which he missed two. He rebounded from that to hit the game winner the very next week and only missed two field goals the rest of the season including not missing again after the KC game the following week after the Chargers game.

2008: He missed five kicks. Only one came in a game we lost and that is a game we lost 34 to 14 so his kick didn't make a difference.

2009: Kinda a wash because he was hurt most of the year but only missed two kicks the Colts won both games.

2010: missed two kicks both in the same game and the Colts won that game over the Redskins

2011: Missed four kicks three came in games the Colts lost all three we lost by a touchdown or more again his misses didn't impact the outcome of the game.

2012: Missed two kicks in two games both games we lost by more than three points again didn't impact the outcome of the game.

Worth also mentioning since coming to Indianapolis Adam is 19 of 20 on field goals in the playoffs the lone miss coming in the Super Bowl vs. the Bears his first year here.

So really you can point to two games in which Adam has missed a kick that it had an impact on the loss. The Titans game his first year here and the Chargers game we lost in 2008. Frankly most of his misses have come in games the Colts won. Over that time he is 9 of 10 in game winning situations and that's not counting the Jags game and the Jets playoff games that his kicks gave the Colts the lead and the defense blew it and the Colts never saw the ball again.

So if you aren't comfortable with Adam in game winning situations I think that means you are like me you are just nervous about any field goal because there is nothing based on numbers that says we should be. He's not like Vandy that can point four or five misses in key situations.

This is spot on, great work parsing out all that information, I imagine it took some time. Vinatieri is the least of our problems. The first kick he missed in that Jacksonville game was borderline... right over the goal post, missed by less than a foot. That is called good and we are talking about 1 missed FG all season. This whole thread is quite frankly baffling to me. He made a 53 yard FG to win a game not 2 weeks ago.

If you want some rookie who may have great stats in college and can kick a 60 yard field goal, great, but give me the guy who has hit huge kicks in huge games, has multiple Super Bowl winning kicks on his resume, and will be in the HOF some day. He's 40 years old, that's young in kicker years.

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ruksak Walk On

ruksak

Posted
Posted

I think what's bothering some of us is .....we could use a guy that would have a chance at 60 yarders. I believe Adam's longest ever was for 57 and that was ten years ago. I'd like a guy with more leg, but obviously his nerves have to be capable of handling the stress.

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GoColts8818 Ring of Honor

GoColts8818

Posted
Posted

I think what's bothering some of us is .....we could use a guy that would have a chance at 60 yarders. I believe Adam's longest ever was for 57 and that was ten years ago. I'd like a guy with more leg, but obviously his nerves have to be capable of handling the stress.

How often have you seen us in a situation where we needed a 60 yard field goal since Adam's been here? On top of that if it really comes down to that we can send Pat out there to kick something like that but just because Pat can do that if we need it doesn't mean you get ride of the best clutch kicker in the history of the NFL who is showing no signs of slowing down. In fact when you go back and look at his numbers over the past three years he's just gotten better.
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ruksak Walk On

ruksak

Posted
Posted

it doesn't mean you get ride of the best clutch kicker in the history of the NFL who is showing no signs of slowing down.

I believe much of his reputation is stacked in hyperbole. He's had some storied kicks, most of which were very long ago. I've heard him referred to as "the greatest clutch kicker in history" on multiple occasions right before missing a 30 yard kick in the 4th.

How often have you seen us in a situation where we needed a 60 yard field goal since Adam's been here?

Probably about as many times as we've punted from the 45-50 yard line.

On top of that if it really comes down to that we can send Pat out there to kick

More hyperbole. He has never proven he can do that in a game situation.

In fact when you go back and look at his numbers over the past three years he's just gotten better.

It's good that he's come out of his slump, but that doesn't suggest he's better than ever. He was slumping/injured there for awhile.

We're in no great need to get rid of him or anything like that. As another poster suggested above, we have bigger issues to attend to. What I'm saying is, if we have a chance a landing a really solid younger kicker, we should take it.

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FireJimCaldwell Walk On

FireJimCaldwell

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Posted

Personally, I think he was trying to play through an injury for quite some time during his tenure in Indy. There were times when a 4th & 4 pass seemed more likely than a 45+ FG. I guess I just had that much confidence in 18.

With that said, 2010 he was more than solid, and made some kicks I didn't think he would have.

As far as him being better in Indy. I think the biggest difference is more Indoor kicks. New England played on a garbage field the last half of most seasons, so kicking off field turf indoors would go a long way of increasing a guys #'s. Statistically he has been better, but I think being indoors more often has had a lot to do with that.

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GoColts8818 Ring of Honor

GoColts8818

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Posted

I believe much of his reputation is stacked in hyperbole. He's had some storied kicks, most of which were very long ago. I've heard him referred to as "the greatest clutch kicker in history" on multiple occasions right before missing a 30 yard kick in the 4th.

It's not hyperbole when you have the stats to back it up. He's 9 of 10 in game winning situations since coming here and that not counting the two kicks he hit against the Jets and Jags that should have been game winners that the defense blew. where he scored ALL our points. Speaking of the playoffs he's 19 of 20 in the playoffs since coming to the Colts. That's why he's said to be clutch because he is. That's not looking at anything he did in New England because I didn't follow the Pats nearly as much so I can't look at the games and tell you if it came down to a game winner or not like I can with the Colts. I do know Adam did hit four extremely clutch field goals in the playoffs for the Pats and I don't recall him missing in a big playoff spot for them.

He's clutch. Clutch does not = perfect. He's gong to miss some kicks here or there he has his whole career. It's why he hasn't gone to more pro-bowls. Even still he's missing less often now in his career than he has earlier in his career. He was something like an 83% kicker with the Pats and is something like a mid 80s for his time in Indy and is 87% in his past three years in Indianapolis. He's missed a total of 8 kicks in three years. That's exactly a reason to reach for the panic button like so many are doing. He's also missed 0 kicks in a game winning situation or what should have been a game winning situation over that time.

Also it happening a long time ago? He's has game winners or what should have been game winners the past two weeks! It's not his fault the defense gave up an 80 yard TD catch against the Jags. It's not his fault the team didn't give him a chance to do it last year and the 2010 season ended when Adam hit a 50 plus yarder in the playoffs against the Jets and then saw the kickoff unit and defense blow it. Also the regular season ended that year with him hitting a game winning field goal. That's four kicks in the very recent history.

Probably about as many times as we've punted from the 45-50 yard line.

No teams try field goals from the 45 or 50 unless it the end of the half or end of the game. The reason why is if you miss it you give the team the ball at the 50 or in your end of the field. If we are ever in a situation like that at the end of the half or the end of the game they will send Pat out to try it. We haven't been in that situation so they haven't had to do it. They aren't going to do that every time they get stopped at midfield though. Heck even the Ravens with their defense wouldn't do that. The reason why is that you are pretty much giving the other team three points at least if you don't hit the kick.

More hyperbole. He has never proven he can do that in a game situation.

No but he has a leg for it and Adam does not. So if they are in a must have situation where they need a 60 yard field goal they are at least going to take a crack at it with a kicker who has the leg to get it there rather than the kicker they know doesn't.

It's good that he's come out of his slump, but that doesn't suggest he's better than ever. He was slumping/injured there for awhile.

I didn't say he was coming out of a slump. I said his numbers have been really good since Adam came to Indianapolis and keep getting better. He was hurt almost all of the 2009 season. So this is his third year removed from injury. His first year back he only missed two kicks and they were both in the same game. That's just a bad game. he was perfect the rest of the season. Last year he missed four kicks, two of which again were in the same game. Meaning he missed two the rest of the year. Again he had another bad game it happens to every player if you take those two games out That means he's missed two kicks over 31 games including post season coming into this year. If that's slumping for a kicker a lot of kickers would love to be slumping.

His last true slump was the 2007 season when he missed five field goals over three games and oh by the way he ended the last game in that slump by hitting the game winner.

We're in no great need to get rid of him or anything like that. As another poster suggested above, we have bigger issues to attend to. What I'm saying is, if we have a chance a landing a really solid younger kicker, we should take it.

Don't fix it if it's not broke and right now our kicking game isn't broken. When it becomes an issue they will address it. No need to barrow trouble when we have enough holes as it is.

For whatever reason people seem to have decided Adam needs to go and are trying to see issues that aren't really there. I know you said there is no reason to release him but the dislike people in this thread as a whole that people are trying to invent for Adam just isn't there if you look at numbers.

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