Need a better Running Back?

[Mouthfire]

are you serious about Brown not having break away speed?

Yeah, actually, that's Brown's biggest asset.

[schwamm]

Don't get me wrong, I am impressed with how Brown has been at the running back position for the Colts, but I feel that they could do better. If the Colts had a better running back that would take some of the pressure off Luck and the Colts would be a balanced team and maybe even a better team. I feel the Colts should not wait until next year's draft to get a running back, I think that either they get one in a trade or find someone in free agency. Thoughts?

Any chance the Colts could trade some of its fans for ones that know their rump ends from their elbows? If so, they definitely shouldn't wait for next season for that!

[Superman]

Tarik Glenn retired after the 2006 season. I started complaining in 2007.

The results didn't begin to suffer until 2008. We still ran effectively in 2007. The next year we lost Jake Scott (he's still available, by the way), Ryan Lilja was out all season, and Jeff Saturday was hurt to begin the year. We started three rookies on the interior of the line in the opener. To me, that was the real drop-off year.

[Superman]

I've been complaining about our OL since 2008 as well.

I just think that even with Glenn still here Brown would still average 2.8 ypc. As others have agreed with me he is too tenative back there. He has peytons happy feet when he should already be at the LOS.

He averaged 4.8 yards per carry last season. He's not a great back, but we should at least give him credit for what he has done on the field.

[Andy]

The Colts don't need a better running back, they need

A BETTER O-LINE

Brown isn't the problem right now.

[Andy]

He averaged 4.8 yards per carry last season. He's not a great back, but we should at least give him credit for what he has done on the field.

Keep in mind that if he didn't have that 80 yard TD, he would have average 4.2 ypc.

[Superman]

Keep in mind that if he didn't have that 80 yard TD, he would have average 4.2 ypc.

He did have that 80 yard touchdown. You can take the best play out of anyone's portfolio, and the portfolio isn't as impressive.

But 4.2 ypc is still better than the 2.8 that the other poster is trying to saddle him with. Brown has never averaged such a low ypc in his entire underwhelming career.

That's the thing that gets me. Anyone who might be seen as a Brown defender isn't claiming that he's anything special. I know I'm not. But to say that he'd average 2.8 ypc with a good offensive line ignores the fact that he's decidedly better than that with a bad offensive line, and has been his entire career. Like I said, we should at least give him credit for what little he's actually done.

[ztboiler]

He gets to high in his blocks sometimes(in other words poor pad level sometimes when he is in a 2 point stance which leadsto D Linemen getting underneath him (such as Peppers did in the 1st quarter in the Bears game also backpedal on that play (well therewas none he was being driven back on that play and being lifted up off the ground).He also needs to finish his blocks. It appears to me he is a better pass blocker out of a 3 point stance then he is out of a two point stance, I like his lateral quickness and his ability to get to the 2nd level on blocks (something he did a great job of doing at the 5:25 mark of the second quarter, and like I said I think he is a better pull blocker then Olsen do to Mcglynn (seemingly to me but of course I am of course no coach or scout) having better lateral quickness. He shows good areness I think. He needs to work on his strength and footwork

I guess I am more interested in the specific results of how that summary looks in motion ie. the frequency with which he is getting beat, but appreciate the analysis none the less.

[jbaron04]

Don't get me wrong, I am impressed with how Brown has been at the running back position for the Colts, but I feel that they could do better. If the Colts had a better running back that would take some of the pressure off Luck and the Colts would be a balanced team and maybe even a better team. I feel the Colts should not wait until next year's draft to get a running back, I think that either they get one in a trade or find someone in free agency. Thoughts?

The running back is not the problem it's the oline ask Chris Johnson

[JoKeR]

It is amazing to me that as much as its been talked about, that some people still can't figure out that RB is not the problem.

...and at the very least, we're not sure what we have at RB yet because of the o-line.

[BleedingBlue]

Ok, guys I give up. You are right, when we're not asking him to block or catch...or when he is untouched behind the line and a an actual hole opens up, he has potential to be average. Awesome. Low expectations FTW!

[jbaron04]

Don't get me wrong, I am impressed with how Brown has been at the running back position for the Colts, but I feel that they could do better. If the Colts had a better running back that would take some of the pressure off Luck and the Colts would be a balanced team and maybe even a better team. I feel the Colts should not wait until next year's draft to get a running back, I think that either they get one in a trade or find someone in free agency. Thoughts?

It not Donald its the oline they suck no running back can get good gain if u alway get hit in back of Los u need linemen to get you to the second lv then u can make people miss

[Andy]

He did have that 80 yard touchdown. You can take the best play out of anyone's portfolio, and the portfolio isn't as impressive.

But 4.2 ypc is still better than the 2.8 that the other poster is trying to saddle him with. Brown has never averaged such a low ypc in his entire underwhelming career.

That's the thing that gets me. Anyone who might be seen as a Brown defender isn't claiming that he's anything special. I know I'm not. But to say that he'd average 2.8 ypc with a good offensive line ignores the fact that he's decidedly better than that with a bad offensive line, and has been his entire career. Like I said, we should at least give him credit for what little he's actually done.

Not at all, maybe you'll lose .1 or .2, but not .6.

Yes 4.2 is better than 2.8, and it's too early to start bashing him.

I agree, we should give him a chance, and they are. However, Vick Ballard's getting more and more snaps a game, and I predicted he'd be the starter by midseason.

[Superman]

Ok, guys I give up. You are right, when we're not asking him to block or catch...or when he is untouched behind the line and a an actual hole opens up, he has potential to be average. Awesome. Low expectations FTW!

He was the 4th best pass blocking back in the NFL last season. And he dropped two passes in the opener, so now he can't catch?

You can continue to bash him if you'd like. The point is that bashing a running back who is hit behind the line of scrimmage on 40% of his touches is a waste of energy. The run game is poor because the run blocking is poor.

[southwest1]

are you serious about Brown not having break away speed?

Yes, I have watched Donald Brown ever since GM Bill Polian drafted him and his speed is decent not great. When I think of lightning fast RB's I think of Marshal Faulk, Reggie Bush, Terrell Davis, and even Devon Hester on punt returns. Donald Brown doesn't have that overdrive 5th gear. Sorry no. I like Brown, but he's no elite scat back...not by a long shot in my book.

I'd put Barry Sanders in this group too, but what made him 1 of a kind was him incredible, change of direction transitions like a ballroom dancer on a football field/ body control in addition to his speed.

[JoKeR]

Yes, I have watched Donald Brown ever since GM Bill Polian drafted him and his speed is decent not great. When I think of lightning fast RB's I think of Marshal Faulk, Reggie Bush, Terrell Davis, and even Devon Hester on punt returns. Donald Brown doesn't have that overdrive 5th gear. Sorry no. I like Brown, but he's no elite scat back...not by a long shot in my book.

My opinion is opposite about Brown. I think he has that 5th gear and can break from the pack but I don't think his acceleration is that great( that could be indecisive running though)

[Superman]

Not at all, maybe you'll lose .1 or .2, but not .6.

Yes 4.2 is better than 2.8, and it's too early to start bashing him.

I agree, we should give him a chance, and they are. However, Vick Ballard's getting more and more snaps a game, and I predicted he'd be the starter by midseason.

Michael Turner was third in the league last season with 1,340 yards. And he averaged 4.5 yards per carry. Take away his 81 yarder, and that goes down to 4.1 yards per carry.

The thing about it is that Brown's ability to go 80 yards on one play is a virtue. It's not fair to * away his best play because it's an outlier.

And again, 4.2 is well above 2.8.

I don't really care who the back is. I really like Ballard as well, and I think his running style will make him a more effective back in the NFL. But not behind this line. Sunday should have illustrated that well. No one is running behind this line.

[BleedingBlue]

Superman, I've said this repeatedly.... I am or was the biggest DB fan and thought he should see more carries 2 years ago.

I've also said this repeatedly.. There is no doubt our OL is awful.

But as for Brown, stats don't mean anything. I do not like what I see. He is hesitant to the line and he runs with a lack of confidence. Is this because the OLine is terrible? Maybe because a couple of years ago, I wanted to see more of him and I am sure there was a reason for that. Maybe his reluctance has much to do with lack of expectation or just being used to being hit in the backfield. Whatever the reason, the agressiveness just isn't there right now, like what I see from Ballard (even though his stats are worse apc).

Just like I wanted to see more of brown 2 years ago, I want to see more Carter and Ballard now.

I'm not bashing. I'm just not settling.

[southwest1]

My opinion is opposite about Brown. I think he has that 5th gear and can break from the pack but I don't think his acceleration is that great( that could be indecisive running though)

I respect your opinion Joker and you do make a good point...Perhaps, the frequency of that level of acceleration is due to a lack of faith in the line to create pockets for Brown to run through. Once the line is solidified and works like a well oiled machine, perhaps this reality of a lackluster ground game speed wise can be transformed for the better.

Like I said in a previous post on this topic earlier, Brown needs to hit the hole without fear or trepidation...Churn those feet and run toward the daylight son. He's got a great work ethic and I'm not giving up on him just yet.

[Andy]

Michael Turner was third in the league last season with 1,340 yards. And he averaged 4.5 yards per carry. Take away his 81 yarder, and that goes down to 4.1 yards per carry.

The thing about it is that Brown's ability to go 80 yards on one play is a virtue. It's not fair to * away his best play because it's an outlier.

And again, 4.2 is well above 2.8.

I don't really care who the back is. I really like Ballard as well, and I think his running style will make him a more effective back in the NFL. But not behind this line. Sunday should have illustrated that well. No one is running behind this line.

I'm not shying away from that run. I think it was a great run and it showcases the best of Brown's abilities. I'm not ignoring it because it's not consistent with the runs he had that season.

You're right, and I've been saying it for awhile now, the O-line is the reason why the running game has not taken off.

[Superman]

Superman, I've said this repeatedly.... I am or was the biggest DB fan and thought he should see more carries 2 years ago.

I've also said this repeatedly.. There is no doubt our OL is awful.

But as for Brown, stats don't mean anything.

You need to make up your mind whether stats mean anything or not. Earlier you're saying that we'd average 2.8 ypc with Brown even with a good offensive line, as if that's an indication of his play. Is it or not? I think stats do matter, though they're not all important.

I do not like what I see. He is hesitant to the line and he runs with a lack of confidence.

But what difference does it make whether Brown gains 2.8 ypc with hesitancy and a lack of confidence, compared to Ballard averaging a nice, confident 2.2 ypc? Neither is efficient; neither is effective. Both are due to poor line play. I don't care how decisive the back is, or how confident he looks. He's not going to be productive without better blocking. Brown can't hit the hole if the hole isn't there, and neither can Ballard.

And again, in this thread, I responded because of your claim that, even with a good line, Brown would still average 2.8 ypc, and I think that was proven false already. He's never averaged 2.8 ypc in his career, and we haven't had a good run blocking line since he's been here.

Is this because the OLine is terrible? Maybe because a couple of years ago, I wanted to see more of him and I am sure there was a reason for that.

I don't see how it's possible to ignore how terrible the run blocking has been when evaluating any of our backs.

Maybe his reluctance has much to do with lack of expectation or just being used to being hit in the backfield. Whatever the reason, the agressiveness just isn't there right now, like what I see from Ballard (even though his stats are worse apc).

Just like I wanted to see more of brown 2 years ago, I want to see more Carter and Ballard now.

Like I said, a hesitant 2.8 ypc is no worse than an aggressive 2.2 ypc. Both suck.

Brown doesn't have very good vision/anticipation. He's a quick back who doesn't like contact and does best when you tell him exactly where the hole is, and it's there when he gets there. And even better if he can get through it with no contact. The problem is that a) that's rarely the case in today's NFL with more zone blocking, and b) we don't have the line to consistently provide running lanes either with a power running scheme or a zone blocking/read the play scheme. I'm pointing this out because I don't want people to think that I'm trying to sell you on Donald Brown being a really good back. He's not.

But if you put Ballard behind this line, the production is still awful. You can put virtually any back behind this line, and the production is awful. I hesitate to say "any back" out of respect for the greats, but I'm almost there. This line is really, really bad.

I'm not bashing. I'm just not settling.

I'm not settling, and I resent the earlier implication that I am. I'm just saying that Brown isn't the problem with the run game right now. Isn't that the question? Wasn't that the question in the thread last week?

We have Ballard. We have Carter (who I'm not that big a fan of, by the way). There are other backs available, dozens of them. If Brown is the problem, we can use a different back. We should. But at this point, Brown isn't the problem. Whether you like what you see from him or not, the problem is with the run blocking.

It's like troubleshooting. You go step by step until you find the issue. Fix the line, which has been the problem for four seasons now, with a plethora of different backs. And since we aren't required to use just one back, as we tinker with the line and make improvements, eventually we'll see which backs perform better as the line gets better. And if Brown is being outplayed by Ballard, we'll use Ballard. That won't surprise me, but let's get the line tightened up first. Then we can improve our backs. That's the easy part.

[southwest1]

Superman correctly told me that Ballard would be our between the tackles workhorse and Brown would be our speed back.

But, Donald runs East to West a lot vs North and South and the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line.

Meaning: Velocity is generated best running straight down hill not sideline to sideline. If our o-line gets time to gel, 75-80% of this dilemma disappears almost overnight. I will check the line again closely by week 10 to see where we are at.

[BleedingBlue]

You need to make up your mind whether stats mean anything or not. Earlier you're saying that we'd average 2.8 ypc with Brown even with a good offensive line, as if that's an indication of his play. Is it or not? I think stats do matter, though they're not all important.

But what difference does it make whether Brown gains 2.8 ypc with hesitancy and a lack of confidence, compared to Ballard averaging a nice, confident 2.2 ypc? Neither is efficient; neither is effective. Both are due to poor line play. I don't care how decisive the back is, or how confident he looks. He's not going to be productive without better blocking. Brown can't hit the hole if the hole isn't there, and neither can Ballard.

And again, in this thread, I responded because of your claim that, even with a good line, Brown would still average 2.8 ypc, and I think that was proven false already. He's never averaged 2.8 ypc in his career, and we haven't had a good run blocking line since he's been here.

I don't see how it's possible to ignore how terrible the run blocking has been when evaluating any of our backs.

Like I said, a hesitant 2.8 ypc is no worse than an aggressive 2.2 ypc. Both suck.

Brown doesn't have very good vision/anticipation. He's a quick back who doesn't like contact and does best when you tell him exactly where the hole is, and it's there when he gets there. And even better if he can get through it with no contact. The problem is that a) that's rarely the case in today's NFL with more zone blocking, and b) we don't have the line to consistently provide running lanes either with a power running scheme or a zone blocking/read the play scheme. I'm pointing this out because I don't want people to think that I'm trying to sell you on Donald Brown being a really good back. He's not.

But if you put Ballard behind this line, the production is still awful. You can put virtually any back behind this line, and the production is awful. I hesitate to say "any back" out of respect for the greats, but I'm almost there. This line is really, really bad.

I'm not settling, and I resent the earlier implication that I am. I'm just saying that Brown isn't the problem with the run game right now. Isn't that the question? Wasn't that the question in the thread last week?

We have Ballard. We have Carter (who I'm not that big a fan of, by the way). There are other backs available, dozens of them. If Brown is the problem, we can use a different back. We should. But at this point, Brown isn't the problem. Whether you like what you see from him or not, the problem is with the run blocking.

It's like troubleshooting. You go step by step until you find the issue. Fix the line, which has been the problem for four seasons now, with a plethora of different backs. And since we aren't required to use just one back, as we tinker with the line and make improvements, eventually we'll see which backs perform better as the line gets better. And if Brown is being outplayed by Ballard, we'll use Ballard. That won't surprise me, but let's get the line tightened up first. Then we can improve our backs. That's the easy part.

Brown doesn't have very good vision/anticipation. - Thats all I'm saying.

the problem is with the run blocking - No one disagrees. However the title of the thread is "Need a better Running Back?" and my answer is still a resounding yes.

[Superman]

Brown doesn't have very good vision/anticipation. - Thats all I'm saying.

the problem is with the run blocking - No one disagrees. However the title of the thread is "Need a better Running Back?" and my answer is still a resounding yes.

I think maybe we already have a better running back. I really like Vick Ballard. And combined with Brown, we could have a pretty good tandem.

But even if you get a better running back -- and we're talking even a top notch guy -- our poor run blocking will still hold them back. Brown can be productive with good blocking. A better back can be even more productive. I'm not saying forget about improving at any position on this team. Just that singling out the running back is pointless.

[Creekside]

How many times is this going to get rehashed?

[BleedingBlue]

Agree on ballard. Was happy with the pick. Would love to see him more.

[Moose Of Woe]

Do we need a better running back? That would be nice, sure.

What do we REALLY need? An NFL caliber O-line. Not a better one. AN O-line. The high school JV team one we field each week is a frickin' joke.

[Coltsman1788]

Don't get me wrong, I am impressed with how Brown has been at the running back position for the Colts, but I feel that they could do better. If the Colts had a better running back that would take some of the pressure off Luck and the Colts would be a balanced team and maybe even a better team. I feel the Colts should not wait until next year's draft to get a running back, I think that either they get one in a trade or find someone in free agency. Thoughts?

Although I tend to agree that we could upgrade ourselves at running back...I don't necessarily think running back is our problem. We have a solid stable of runners. They are not elite by any stretch and if we can get that franchise back then that would be an upgrade. However, the problem lies more with our offensive line. They get very little push off of the line of scrimage and our backs are taking too many hits in the backfield. At this point it doesn't matter who we have back there. With this line...they ain't gonna pick up too much yardage. Our inability to run the ball and conservative play calling in the 4th quarter almost cost us that Vikings game if not for Luck's heroics and Vinny's ageless leg. We gotta make improving our O-line our top priority during the offseason.

[BrentMc11]

He did have that 80 yard touchdown. You can take the best play out of anyone's portfolio, and the portfolio isn't as impressive.

But 4.2 ypc is still better than the 2.8 that the other poster is trying to saddle him with. Brown has never averaged such a low ypc in his entire underwhelming career.

That's the thing that gets me. Anyone who might be seen as a Brown defender isn't claiming that he's anything special. I know I'm not. But to say that he'd average 2.8 ypc with a good offensive line ignores the fact that he's decidedly better than that with a bad offensive line, and has been his entire career. Like I said, we should at least give him credit for what little he's actually done.

If I did not have 1 67 yard TD INT.....I would never have had a TD (Other than the 1 million......in my dreams)

[BrentMc11]

Superman correctly told me that Ballard would be our between the tackles workhorse and Brown would be our speed back.

But, Donald runs East to West a lot vs North and South and the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line.

Meaning: Velocity is generated best running straight down hill not sideline to sideline. If our o-line gets time to gel, 75-80% of this dilemma disappears almost overnight. I will check the line again closely by week 10 to see where we are at.

Our buddy Jay Kirk said that when Ballard was drafted.....! Our friend does not say much, but knows football as well as ANYONE on this board!

BTW: There are about 5 teams in the league that are REMOTELY happy with their OL......Embrace this team Colts fans......PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jay Kirk]

You are correct Brent have liked Ballard from the get go,not without doing the research,I will stick to my guns,and say he should be our main back,and if given a legit chance will prove it,Carter should be used on 3rd downs when you need a tough yard and need to move the pile.I know some wont like my opinion,I dont care!!!and they are intitled to theyre own opinion as well.

[Gavin]

For those complaining about Donald Brown not being good enough, Darren Mcfadden has has 26 carries for 54 yards this year to Browns 25 carries for 93 yards

[The Peytonator]

I'm willing to cut OP a break here since he's new.

Any time a RB gets hit in the backfield as soon as he gets the ball, that falls on the Oline. Nothing the back can do. That happened in the Vikings game many times, one of the times Brown stiff-armed the crap out of the DT and turned it into a positive gain. That play showed some incredible toughness from a guy that lots of people like to rag on for being soft.

When Reitz replaces Olsen, Satele comes back, and Justice replaces Link, we'll be much more respectable. Maybe Essex would prove to be a better RG than McGlynn too. Upgrades all around.

[Warhorse]

Keep in mind that if he didn't have that 80 yard TD, he would have average 4.2 ypc.

(Andy, this rant is not at you...)

4.8.......4.2.........means nothing. any stat can be used to manufacture hope through tendencies. Or it can be used to manufacture fear and doubt. Each play involves players fighting one on one against each other and it is those battles, added up, that decides the play. I doubt that stats came into play when the Cards went into NE and stepped on them. They just wanted it more that day.

I like a coach and a staff that inspires men to want it more. Such was Lombardi. For me personally, I could care less about stats. This staff and team has grit. I am already having a great season as a fan. I see the o-line as a work in progress that is waiting its turn on funding and drafting...not an issue to be picked apart. I see the RB's as deepest group we have had at Indy in some time, who are just doing what they can while waiting for the o-line help...not a group of "not good enough" or "tough enough" guys.

I see the secondary as the men who are the most exposed by the defensive scheme change, and they are doing a pretty darn good job....not smurfs who were the but of jokes on Colts forums for years.

Com'n Colts fans, show some love for the effort being given by these men. They aren't quitting, or beating their families, or running over people late at night drunk....they are doing everything they can for the team right now.

What say you?

[GoColts8818]

Till we fix the line we could have a stable of backs of Jim Brown, Walter Payton, and Emmitt Smith in their prime and they aren't going to get yards in our offense. Let alone Ballard or Brown. So it's not about the backs it's about the guys blocking for them.

[T Y Goodbye]

(Andy, this rant is not at you...)

4.8.......4.2.........means nothing. any stat can be used to manufacture hope through tendencies. Or it can be used to manufacture fear and doubt. Each play involves players fighting one on one against each other and it is those battles, added up, that decides the play. I doubt that stats came into play when the Cards went into NE and stepped on them. They just wanted it more that day.

I like a coach and a staff that inspires men to want it more. Such was Lombardi. For me personally, I could care less about stats. This staff and team has grit. I am already having a great season as a fan. I see the online as a work in progress that is waiting its turn on funding and drafting...not an issue to be picked apart. I see the RB's as deepest group we have had at Indy in some time, who are just doing what they can while waiting for the o-line help...not a group of "not good enough" or "tough enough" guys.

I see the secondary as the men who are the most exposed by the defensive scheme change, and they are doing a pretty darn good job....not smurfs who were the but of jokes on Colts forums for years.

Com'n Colts fans, show some love for the effort being given by these men. They aren't quitting, or beating their families, or running over people late at night drunk....they are doing everything they can for the team right now.

What say you?

Well said Warhorse..(ran out of likes)

[John Dee]

Honestly I think Barry Sanders, Jim Brown, Emmett Smith, Walter Payton, Earl Campbell, Marshall Faulk, Edge in their prime would have trouble behind this line. Well maybe not Barry.....wait he's available right?

I would rather Indy go get Anthony Munoz, and Tony Boselli...

[Indyboy757]

yes a lot of it has to do with the O-line but with that said, understand the type of back Brown is which is a speed not power back it doesn't take much to get brown on the ground. I do feel we need to fix the O-line first but the RBs need a change up aswell. I've had a close eye on Brown sinse 09, a time when our O-line wasn't as bad then compared to were it is now and I see the same out of Brown. Brown is a change of pace back but not a move the chains on 3rd down back an thats what we need. First things first lets get through 2012 and at the end of the season take a good hard look at our needs, I'm sure we could use a OT, OG for the line but if the running game looks the same throughout the season as it has these past two games I could easly see us upgrading the running game aswell only time will tell but if I had to guess I would say the coaches have already taken a good look at this and that is why Pagano came out before training camp saying brown is a every down back

[unitaswestand]

In general, RBs and DBs are greatly effected by the line in front of them. I doubt Lydell Mitchell could gain yards behind this line.

[Mouthfire]

I think the real question is: where would you get the most "bang for your buck"? Based on my numbers, I suspect you could get some modest returns by drafting/signing a better back. But you'd still be limited by getting hit behind the line of scrimmage a staggering 37.5% of the time. And no, not even a more physical back like Adrian Peterson or Vick Ballard could get meaningfully better numbers with that kind of blocking... the stats from the last two games bear this out.

The better answer seems to upgrade your offensive line and cut down on the backfield penetration. I suspect that if you cut down the backfield penetration closer to 20% like Adrian Peterson has been getting with his offensive line, Donald's YPC will be pretty close to Peterson's 4.4 YPC.

And as another benefit, your pass protection likely gets upgraded as well... it's not like the current Colts pass protection is lighting the world on fire right now. Luck was running for his life quite a few times last game, IIRC, and the Bears game was even worse.