Is it an indictment on the Colts that......

[ruksak]

Wade Phillips has more to do with Denver winning a championship than anyone else. His role is being sorely underplayed, as Bum's son has long been overlooked as the Belichick of defense. 

 

John Elway has proven himself to be an aggressive, effective GM. He didn't waste too much time gambling on UDFA unknowns. He garnered proven vets like Talib, Ware, and Peyton Freaking Manning. Polian got ....uhhh....a guy named Booger once I think? 

 

Free Agency is where it's at. Do like Elway. Go with Plan A, there is no Plan B. 

 

[Myles]

2 hours ago, Tsarquise said:

They won, but it definitely wasn't because of anything Manning did, which is who everyone was rooting for; not that it matters.

 

I thought the Panthers were the all round better team and I don't think I was wrong about that...

. 

 

 

Wrong.   If Manning would have tried to force the Denver offense to pass against the Carolina defense, the game would have been different.   Instead he played it safe which worked.

 

Denver was the better team.   QB play, definitely goes to Denver.   Manning completed over 56% of his passes.   Cam, 43%.  Cam took more sacks.   Defense.   Easily Denver.   Running game.   Tie.   Special teams.  Denver.

[Tsarquise]

50 minutes ago, jskinnz said:

 

I am pretty confident that he asked so he could see the nonsensical response you would come up with.  And you more than obliged.  

 

Thank you.  You are the gift that keeps on giving.

 

But it wasn't nonsensical.

 

 

 

[Tsarquise]

1 minute ago, Myles said:

Wrong.   If Manning would have tried to force the Denver offense to pass against the Carolina defense, the game would have been different.   Instead he played it safe which worked.

 

Denver was the better team.   QB play, definitely goes to Denver.   Manning completed over 56% of his passes.   Cam, 43%.  Cam took more sacks.   Defense.   Easily Denver.   Running game.   Tie.   Special teams.  Denver.

You're wrong....  I said they didn't win because of anything that Manning did,  which is true; yet you're focused on what he didn't do, I.E. turnovers.

 

On paper, I think the Panthers are better and if they played again I think they would win.

 

But, of course the Panthers were outplayed.

[chad72]

11 minutes ago, ruksak said:

Wade Phillips has more to do with Denver winning a championship than anyone else. His role is being sorely underplayed, as Bum's son has long been overlooked as the Belichick of defense. 

 

John Elway has proven himself to be an aggressive, effective GM. He didn't waste too much time gambling on UDFA unknowns. He garnered proven vets like Talib, Ware, and Peyton Freaking Manning. Polian got ....uhhh....a guy named Booger once I think? 

 

Free Agency is where it's at. Do like Elway. Go with Plan A, there is no Plan B. 

 

 

Quality of free agents AND getting coaches who can maximize those talents, is what it is all about.

 

The same Ware and Miller, what did Jack Del Rio do to maximize that talent? He kept putting Talib on T.Y.Hilton and Talib kept getting burnt in last year's divisional round game vs the Colts. Wade Philips, after 2 completions to Ted Ginn Jr. vs Talib said "enough of this, I am playing Chris Harris Jr. or Roby alternating them on Ted Ginn Jr.". They even teach Von Miller enough technique to break up that pass play vs a WR, and have an INT vs Brady on that throw to Gronk in the AFCCG. Jack Del Rio even got Von Miller to bulk up to play 4-3 DE and Von Miller suffered ACL injuries since he had not carried that much weight on his body and during his comeback even said "a Rolls Royce is not meant to carry freight". Miami Dolphins, see how they are playing Suh. Detroit Lions draft Tomlinson, guard from Duke, and Larry Warford, both man blocking guards and play them in zone blocking. 

 

One can go on and on and on about coaching issues across the NFL, it gets magnified when the teams are in the playoffs. It is not just about getting the right Johnnys and Joes, it is having the right coaching to maximize their talents.

 

Grigson got mid-tier guys like RJF, Greg Toler, Cherilus, Walden etc. and swung and missed with Trent Richardson, Laron Landry, and pretty soon Andre Johnson and Trent Cole. Hopefully we have not overpaid for Arthur Jones. Let's see if our new coaches can maximize our personnel's talents.

[Live and let live]

55 minutes ago, RomanianColtsFan said:

Actually Peyton went to 2 Super Bowls in 4 years with the Colts too. It's just that it took longer for everything to come together.

And he never got back there again with the Colts.

[Live and let live]

8 minutes ago, Tsarquise said:

You're wrong....  I said they didn't win because of anything that Manning did,  which is true; yet you're focused on what he didn't do, I.E. turnovers.

 

On paper, I think the Panthers are better and if they played again I think they would win.

 

But, of course the Panthers were outplayed.

I think you are very wrong about that. I think if those two teams played 100 times, the Broncos would win between 70 and 80 of the games. There is that much difference.

[Tsarquise]

2 minutes ago, Live and let live said:

I think you are very wrong about that. I think if those two teams played 100 times, the Broncos would win between 70 and 80 of the games. There is that much difference.

 

So, Cam Newton would keep Fumbling the ball and give them 7 points or set them up at the goal line for 70 or 80 games?

[Live and let live]

Just now, Tsarquise said:

 

So, Cam Newton would keep Fumbling the ball and give them 7 points or set them up at the goal line for 70 or 80 games?

Yes, and if it wasn't him, it would have been someone else. That defense is just that good.

 

[ruksak]

1 minute ago, Tsarquise said:

 

So, Cam Newton would keep Fumbling the ball and give them 7 points or set them up at the goal line for 70 or 80 games?

Short answer; Yes.

 

Long Answer; Yessssssssssssss

 

 

[No 1 Manning Fan]

On February 4, 2016 at 0:28 PM, Flash said:

The issue, to me, isn't between between Manning/Colts vs Manning/Broncos. In roughly the same time span, Elway built a much better team than Grigson has. The Broncos had the best offense (all-time great) a few years back and now they have arguably the best defense in the league. Fantastic job by Elway.

 

It's no secret -- surround your talented QB with a great defense and you will win championships, ala Broncos, Panthers, Seahawks, Patriots, Ravens, 49'ers, Packers, etc... Great QBs will make the offense work.

 

Give Luck a great defense and he'll make it to the Superbowl.

 

Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner. Only I would alternate slightly. Give a great QB a dominant defense, a dominant o line, then the QB will have time to dissect the defense and will make his receivers look good and the o line will also make the running back look good. I always felt the Polian was too obsessed with the skill positions: WRs and receiving TEs. 

[Tsarquise]

33 minutes ago, Live and let live said:

Yes, and if it wasn't him, it would have been someone else. That defense is just that good.

 

The only thing Denver did better was special teams... and they luckily recovered fumbles...

DVOA (with opponent adjustments)
TEAM	TOT	OFF	DEF	ST
DEN	28%	-50%	-58%	21%
CAR	12%	-30%	-58%	-17%

[southwest1]

1 hour ago, ruksak said:

Wade Phillips has more to do with Denver winning a championship than anyone else. His role is being sorely underplayed, as Bum's son has long been overlooked as the Belichick of defense. 

 

John Elway has proven himself to be an aggressive, effective GM. He didn't waste too much time gambling on UDFA unknowns. He garnered proven vets like Talib, Ware, and Peyton Freaking Manning. Polian got ....uhhh....a guy named Booger once I think? 

 

Free Agency is where it's at. Do like Elway. Go with Plan A, there is no Plan B. 

 

Yes, you're right. Wade & Elway are the 2 key architects responsible for the Broncos Championship. I'm not gonna criticize a HOF GM in Bill Polian though. That's where we part ways Ruksak. I agree with 90% of what you wrote though. 

[ruksak]

3 minutes ago, southwest1 said:

Yes, you're right. Wade & Elway are the 2 key architects responsible for the Broncos Championship. I'm not gonna criticize a HOF GM in Bill Polian though. That's where we part ways Ruksak. I agree with 90% of what you wrote though. 

I typically support Polian. The one knock I give him was his stubbornness to avoid FA and rather choosing UDFA's over proven vets to fill needs. 

 

 

[Traines]

39 minutes ago, Tsarquise said:

The only thing Denver did better was special teams... and they luckily recovered fumbles...

DVOA (with opponent adjustments)
TEAM	TOT	OFF	DEF	ST
DEN	28%	-50%	-58%	21%
CAR	12%	-30%	-58%	-17%

Irrelevant, see why below:

 

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2016020700/2015/POST22/panthers@broncos#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap3000000634998&tab=recap

 

If you bother to follow this link you will see that the Broncos won by 14 (24-10 was the final score)...that is 2 Touchdowns.  Also, you will notice that the Broncos (to you, the far inferior team) outscored the Panthers in 3 out of 4 quarters.  You can find numbers to match whatever argument you want to make these days, but the final score is what matters.  You can argue that Peyton had nothing to do with it, that Panthers would win if they played again, that one or two calls made the difference, but none of that matters, it is not provable.  IMO the only realistic conclusion to draw from this is that the Broncos are world champs and that they are the better team.

[southwest1]

24 minutes ago, ruksak said:

I typically support Polian. The one knock I give him was his stubbornness to avoid FA and rather choosing UDFA's over proven vets to fill needs. 

 

 

"Stubbornness" is a good word. If I'm being honest with myself, I have frowned on Bill in the past when he got a little testy whenever a reporter challenged him on his preference to address offensive gaps sooner than say a glaring defensive hole or liability. So yeah, I get what you're driving at. 

 

Bill's not above reproach or excused from any roster flaws. I probably view Bill's record of drafting in totality across 3 franchises more than I probably should. It's fair to say that I have difficulty just examining what Polian did in INDY & INDY alone in complete isolation. I will own that. 

 

In Bill's defense, I can be a stubborn SOB too. I blame it on my zodiac sign. Maybe Bill is a Taurus too. That's my fallback excuse. 

[Tsarquise]

10 minutes ago, Traines said:

Irrelevant, see why below:

 

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2016020700/2015/POST22/panthers@broncos#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap3000000634998&tab=recap

 

If you bother to follow this link you will see that the Broncos won by 14 (24-10 was the final score)...that is 2 Touchdowns.  Also, you will notice that the Broncos (to you, the far inferior team) outscored the Panthers in 3 out of 4 quarters.  You can find numbers to match whatever argument you want to make these days, but the final score is what matters.  You can argue that Peyton had nothing to do with it, that Panthers would win if they played again, that one or two calls made the difference, but none of that matters, it is not provable.  IMO the only realistic conclusion to draw from this is that the Broncos are world champs and that they are the better team.

 

I never said they were far inferior... 

[Traines]

8 minutes ago, Tsarquise said:

 

I never said they were far inferior... 

I apologize, I thought that is what you were trying to prove (insinuate) with your DVOA stats.  Hope you were able to make it through the rest of the post.

[peyton318]

The Colts front office showed they still don't get it when they drafted a WR (Dorsett) in the first round last year.  Even if they thought Dorsett was the best overall pick at the time, it doesn't matter.  Need to pick OL and DL for every single pick and hope that the round 1 and 2 picks are good, and that a later round pick surprises.

[peyton318]

In terms of Peyton only getting to 2 Super Bowls with the Colts, keep in mind the following.  Manning came here in 1998.  The Colts became elite in 2003.  From there, it goes like this in the postseason:

2003: Lost to the Super Bowl winner (NE) 

2004: Lost to the Super Bowl winner (NE)

2005: Lost to the Super Bowl winner (Pit)

2006: Won the Super Bowl

2007, 2008: Lost to San Diego (who did not go to the Super Bowl)

2009: Lost the Super Bowl

2010: Lost to the Jets (who did not go to the Super Bowl)

 

In terms of not getting to the Super Bowl, it was really only the 2005 and 2007 seasons where we should have done better.

[Superman]

5 hours ago, Live and let live said:

And he never got back there again with the Colts.

 

He was gone two years later...

[Superman]

7 hours ago, Live and let live said:

OK. I think that is the way a lot of people took it. I certainly did. I have heard from others who felt that way. But, you have been around a long time so I will defer to your judgement. Perhaps I got it wrong.

 

I know a lot of people took his comments that way. JMO, but I didn't think his comments had anything to do with Manning. I think they were mostly directed at Polian's inability to ever build a strong defense. The roster was typically not balanced. We weren't good on special teams coverage. Meanwhile, the team was basically carried by an outstanding offense, especially the passing game.

 

So I don't think he was pointing the finger at Manning. I think he was saying that the Colts didn't make the most of Manning's time here, particularly with building a good defense and having a balanced roster around him. 

[lollygagger8]

[RomanianColtsFan]

16 hours ago, Live and let live said:

And he never got back there again with the Colts.

 

And he actually stopped playing for the Colts 2 years after he reached his last Super Bowl?

 

[Myles]

23 hours ago, Tsarquise said:

You're wrong....  I said they didn't win because of anything that Manning did,  which is true; yet you're focused on what he didn't do, I.E. turnovers.

 

On paper, I think the Panthers are better and if they played again I think they would win.

 

But, of course the Panthers were outplayed.

Nope.  What Manning DID do was to make an effort not to put himself into a position that would not end well. 

Cam, on the other hand, made the decision that to drop back and hold the ball was the way to go against a defense that was penetrating.  

 

Cam refused to throw quick passes.   He Continued to drop back, scan the field and go from there.   To his defense, that has always been his game.   Scan the field, wait for a receiver to get open and see if a running lane opens.   It wasn't working against this defense, but he kept doing it.

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

On 2/4/2016 at 9:27 PM, peytonmanning18 said:

Peyton is in his 2nd Super Bowl in 4 years with Denver while in 13 years with Indianapolis he only made it to 2?  

 

 

Yes a cautionary tale for any team , If you fail to give your team a defense that can stop the run or maintain a led &

While your franchise QB & offense puts you in a position to win year after year while the franchise fails to provide the coaching or players on D that can seal the deal its definetly the Colts Organization leadership that has failed ,

 

And the new regime better learn from the past before they repeat it & squanders the Luck years the Broncos & Elway got it & made the most of it , I hate the Broncos but I must admit they did everything necessary to Win it all .

 

While the Colts failed miserably ...

[odessabronc]

On 2/4/2016 at 9:09 PM, AustinnKaine said:

Peyton hasn't even broken 2,500 yards this season. To me, it is clear that the Denver Bronco's success this year has mainly come from their talented defensive front and back end. The point you are making here doesn't really have any merit considering the Broncos could be in the same position with Osweiler starting the entire season. 

I don't think so. Osweiler is younger and a much better fit for what Kubiak wants to do on offense.

[mahagga73]

On 2/4/2016 at 11:32 PM, LJpalmbeacher said:

Actually it's a indictment on himself.

He had some pretty good teams here in Indy and didn't step up his game in playoffs. The offense failed in the post season as much if not more than the defense did.

 

This is true, but a lot of people won't admit it . That 05 team was the most complete team in Indy Colts history, and the offensive line forgot how to block against Pittsburgh. Still, overall, the defenses weren't good enough to cover up a bad offensive game.

[mahagga73]

On 2/10/2016 at 6:44 PM, peyton318 said:

In terms of Peyton only getting to 2 Super Bowls with the Colts, keep in mind the following.  Manning came here in 1998.  The Colts became elite in 2003.  From there, it goes like this in the postseason:

2003: Lost to the Super Bowl winner (NE) 

2004: Lost to the Super Bowl winner (NE)

2005: Lost to the Super Bowl winner (Pit)

2006: Won the Super Bowl

2007, 2008: Lost to San Diego (who did not go to the Super Bowl)

2009: Lost the Super Bowl

2010: Lost to the Jets (who did not go to the Super Bowl)

 

In terms of not getting to the Super Bowl, it was really only the 2005 and 2007 seasons where we should have done better.

Chargers always had our number for some reason.

[Gavin]

Short answer...Yes

[bap1331]

I wouldn't necessarily agree. The broncos only made both of those trips to the sb because sir andrew luck wasn't in his way. Just like the patriots super bowl win in 2014 where he didn't have to go through Eli manning. I personally prefer facing fears to win a super bowl like peyton did with the patriots.

[chad72]

On February 13, 2016 at 11:34 AM, bap1331 said:

 

I wouldn't necessarily agree. The broncos only made both of those trips to the sb because sir andrew luck wasn't in his way. Just like the patriots super bowl win in 2014 where he didn't have to go through Eli manning. I personally prefer facing fears to win a super bowl like peyton did with the patriots.

 

What about the Chargers that we did not have to play in 2006 or 2009? Any SB winning team typically avoids a bad matchup in the playoffs.

 

For the 2004-2010 stretch, Peyton and the Colts were 2-5 vs the Chargers including playoffs. With the Broncos in 4 years, he is 8-1 including playoffs.

 

They were always a bad match up for the Colts with their tall wideouts, and slippery Sproles due to our overpursuing LBs. When you see teams like the Broncos and Steelers handle Chargers' RBs, you appreciate what good LB play can do for you. Scheme on D, special (or not so special) teams were all weaknesses exploited by good teams in the playoffs leaving no margin for error for the offense, so the bed we lay by building a team around the offense came back to bite us more often.

[-JJ-]

On ‎2‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 9:20 AM, jskinnz said:

 

Personally I don't care what it says about the Colts and Manning's time with them.  It means nothing.  

 

Having said that, I don't think it means anything.  There is obviously this belief that Indy should have won more than 1 Super Bowl while Manning was the QB but the front office did not do enough to help.  I think that is a big bunch of nonsense.

 

1) If Baskett hangs onto the onside kick against the Saints, does Polian then become a genius?  Or does that make the Manning legacy greater? 

 

2) The Colts rise coincided with the Pats' run as well.  In 2003 & 2004, they were just a better team than Indy.  I don't believe there is a great travesty that the Colts' were beaten by a dynasty.

 

3) Several of those playoff loses were at least in some part due to Manning playing really poorly.

Good reasonable points.

 

I got to say this whole thread has been an interesting read and a lot of great points by most of the posters and especially devoid of harsh arguments or insults.

Special teams or lack of was a big factor as many have pointed out.

 

I would also add the only fault of Manning was the passing play calling where a short pass to move the chains would have been more appropriate.

 

A big factor for the Colts first SB was Manning making plays out of the pocket when things broke down. Prior to that he never did. I saw this the first game that season vs the Giants and thought right there the Colts would not only go to the SB but win it.  In fact he made extended plays vs NE in Gillette that season and was a big reason they won where prior it would have been a loss.

 

[jaybird95]

So much hostility