Deflategate merge -- pending appeal results

[Cynjin]

Measuring the Colts footballs was clearly an afterthought. The point of the exercise was to measure the Pats footballs. Somebody probably hastily thought "Hey we should measure the Colts balls just in case", which is why they ran out of time.

Where is your proof of the above? I'd wait for it, but I know there is little chance of anything resembling proof appearing.

  

of course they didn't think atmospherics would account for the drop...because at the time, we all believed that the balls were 2lbs light.

Where is your proof of this statement?

Do you just make declarative statements without any proof to back them up in all areas of your life or is it reserved for the Colts forum?

[Bad Morty]

Where is your proof of the above? I'd wait for it, but I know there is little chance of anything resembling proof appearing.

  

Where is your proof of this statement?

Do you just make declarative statements without any proof to back them up in all areas of your life or is it reserved for the Colts forum?

Where is your proof that the Columbia folks who said they didn't think atmospherics caused the pressure drop had any insight whatsoever into the actual data given that they declined to take the case from the league? Also, no need to keep asking me for "proof" of my opinions. I guess I must be the only person here who is posting opinions instead of clearly linkable and irrefutable facts...eyeroll.

[Cynjin]

Where is your proof that the Columbia folks who said they didn't think atmospherics caused the pressure drop had any insight whatsoever into the actual data given that they declined to take the case from the league? Also, no need to keep asking me for "proof" of my opinions. I guess I must be the only person here who is posting opinions instead of clearly linkable and irrefutable facts...eyeroll.

I never said they did have any insight into the actual data, that would be your position.

Again, opinions are great when there are actual facts/data to back them up. That's the problem with your opinions, you have no facts/data to back them up and therefore your opinions are meaningless.

[ColtsBlueFL]

Where is your proof that the Columbia folks who said they didn't think atmospherics caused the pressure drop had any insight whatsoever into the actual data given that they declined to take the case from the league?

 

Zajc-right here:

 

"Columbia physics professor William Zajc said it was "more likely than not" that the deflation was caused by tampering, not the weather:

William Zajc, another Columbia physicist who was aware of the request by Reisner, said that he was tempted to field the questions because of all the flawed physics discussions he had seen in news media reports.

"I'm amused," Zajc said of the query. But in the end, he said, "I didn't do it."

Zajc said he believed there was little chance that atmospheric effects alone could account for the discrepancies in the football pressure.

"I think it's more likely than not that they were manipulated," Zajc said."

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/columbia-physicist-on-deflated-balls-2015-1

 

[dynasty13]

Where is your proof of the above? I'd wait for it, but I know there is little chance of anything resembling proof appearing.

  

Where is your proof of this statement?

Do you just make declarative statements without any proof to back them up in all areas of your life or is it reserved for the Colts forum?

 

That's the interesting thing about proof.

 

You want it because only then would these explanations be credible...but when it came to the Wells report...I guess proof wasn't needed for you to accept those conclusions... ... ...

[ColtRider]

At least (and up to 4) was in the Wells report more than twice.

 

Here's a story board from the Wells report to answer those items (note the tests I asked for are there, but only the AEI report is used by Bad Morty)

 

The rubbing thing-

 

Next measurements, temps, time frames-

 

 

 

 

 

Finally, the transient test result graph which allow collected field data to be compared to predicted data-

 

 

According to this, the Colts balls pressures are perfectly explained by external conditions if measured between 5.5 and 9.5 minutes into halftime.  At no point in time is the Patriots balls explainable solely by external weather conditions alone.

 

So testing began from 2 minutes into the half, it took approx 5 minutes to do the Pats balls (officials swapped balls when measuring, not gauges) then put balls away (gauges down.  Then they get out the Colts balls and picked up the other gauges. So Colts Balls were likely measured at 8 to10 minutes in (fitting the model above) and then they had to stop, gather them up and bring them back out to the official on the field for play.  They barely got there in time (the little gaffe where kicking ball was spotted for play, then changed).

 

I find it interesting to hear what was presented at the appeal....

Thanks, ColtsBlueFL! I've read your last several messages concerning the scientific and total synopsis of what really occurred regarding

DeFlateGate. Not only are the facts irrefutable, they are inarguably set proof as to what actually happened. As I've explained many times in former threads, I know what the Wells Investigative Report aligns itself with. Guilt. Not because I read it, I understood it. Most could get easily lost or side-tracked while shuffling through 243 pages trying to create a picture in their minds as to what truly happened.

Most will not take the time to research on their own. I can't really say I blame them. After all, Brady and the Patriots are what to them? Those who have taken the time and effort to reach the determination of the Wells Report know the real score. I've been part of investigations throughout my career corporately. And I'm here to tell you that the only "true" possible scenario as to what really happened comes from the report's line that states, "It's more probable, than not" that these violations occurred. Thus, presenting for the reader to come away with a conclusion of, "preponderance of evidence", is the one and only version that makes any sense whatsoever.

[Cynjin]

That's the interesting thing about proof.

 

You want it because only then would these explanations be credible...but when it came to the Wells report...I guess proof wasn't needed for you to accept those conclusions... ... ...

I don't believe that I said BM, you or anyone else had to accept the Wells report as fact. My comments about proof are due to BM having a propensity to make declarative statements without any facts/data to back them up. He just types in statements without any regard to them bring true or not.

[dynasty13]

I don't believe that I said BM, you or anyone else had to accept the Wells report as fact. My comments about proof are due to BM having a propensity to make declarative statements without any facts/data to back them up. He just types in statements without any regard to them bring true or not.

 

I know you never said that we had to accept the Wells report as fact...but are you accepting it as fact?

[ColtsBlueFL]

Agree. I'd reasonably expect fans to back their guy.  Colts fans would probably do the same.  But for me the endless hairspiltting and saying you didn't and can't prove it is over the top.

 

That sort of thing can and probably will do on forever and it's not worth the aggravation of debate.

 

Once I re-run my numbers using my percentage method, I'm done.  I've done enough on my own and read/agree with the statistical models and methods Exponnet used in Wells report, I can't be swayed.  It's out there and Pats Fans grasp at any thing at all to place a shadow on the credibility of the models and results.

[ColtsBlueFL]

I know you never said that we had to accept the Wells report as fact...but are you accepting it as fact?

 

As I stated before, formulas don't lie.  Use proper statistical analysis and formulas, the only potential fly in the ointment is the input data.  I've found nothing better out there then Exponent report..  Others try to pick a nit here and there and then loudly proclaim they must throw the baby out with the bath water.

 

[Bad Morty]

Zajc-right here:

 

"Columbia physics professor William Zajc said it was "more likely than not" that the deflation was caused by tampering, not the weather:

William Zajc, another Columbia physicist who was aware of the request by Reisner, said that he was tempted to field the questions because of all the flawed physics discussions he had seen in news media reports.

"I'm amused," Zajc said of the query. But in the end, he said, "I didn't do it."

Zajc said he believed there was little chance that atmospheric effects alone could account for the discrepancies in the football pressure.

"I think it's more likely than not that they were manipulated," Zajc said."

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/columbia-physicist-on-deflated-balls-2015-1

 

And my question was "on what basis is he making this claim?". Because I don't believe he had any access to the data that had been collected by the NFL, seeing as how they didn't engage with the NFL. So he is making this claim based on hearsay as to what the actual deflation levels were, which as we know were wildly overstated in the news media. So his opinion is baseless.

[Bad Morty]

I don't believe that I said BM, you or anyone else had to accept the Wells report as fact. My comments about proof are due to BM having a propensity to make declarative statements without any facts/data to back them up. He just types in statements without any regard to them bring true or not.

declarative statements?! ! You called me out on this: And I wonder why they "chose not to field the questions"? Could it possibly be because an Ivy League university wasn't willing to compromise it's integrity by selling a rigged science report the way Exponent did?

 

That's a question, not a "declarative statement"!

[SteelCityColt]

And my question was "on what basis is he making this claim?". Because I don't believe he had any access to the data that had been collected by the NFL, seeing as how they didn't engage with the NFL. So he is making this claim based on hearsay as to what the actual deflation levels were, which as we know were wildly overstated in the news media. So his opinion is baseless.

Yet for all you will pick at scientific testimony or opinion that doesn't agree with your own you've yet to disprove what ColtsBlueFL has presented.

[bababooey]

lol. They were never going to suspend him for the SB.

If they knew about it at the time you know they would have. It's actually funny how you're still here after what you said 6 weeks ago when you made a fool of yourself.

[ColtsBlueFL]

And my question was "on what basis is he making this claim?". Because I don't believe he had any access to the data that had been collected by the NFL, seeing as how they didn't engage with the NFL. So he is making this claim based on hearsay as to what the actual deflation levels were, which as we know were wildly overstated in the news media. So his opinion is baseless.

 

You don't think the NFL supplied him with some overview and some test results while asking if he would help them sort it out??  Wow... just wow.    Y'all got nuthin' but hot air. I'm out.

[dynasty13]

declarative statements?! ! You called me out on this: And I wonder why they "chose not to field the questions"? Could it possibly be because an Ivy League university wasn't willing to compromise it's integrity by selling a rigged science report the way Exponent did?

 

That's a question, not a "declarative statement"!

 

Declarative statements....

 

You mean like "Brady didn't hand over his phone because he knew they would find something"...or "The two guys were suspended because they did it"....or "Brady not talking about it proves that he knew about it"...or "Kraft accepted the penalties because he knows they were guilty"...

 

See this is the hypocrisy that we've been seeing from the beginning. Don't dare ask questions Morty because we'll call you out for making declarative statements!!! But please please please don't catch us doing the same?

 

Oh wait, I forgot it was a Colts forum. They can have it both ways. 

[SteelCityColt]

So out of sheer frustration at the roundabout that is this topic, I've condensed it into the following my mind. I'd love to get straight answers, no deflection, no ad hominem to the following:

1) Did a Patriots employee remove the balls from the referees room? Is this illegal?

2) Did he take the balls into a bathroom? For what purpose?

3) Explain the discrepancy in PSI observed at half time. Any mention of the Ideal Gas Law requires you show your method and calculations please.

4) Based on the above answers was the deflation totally natural or linked to 1 & 2? Dependent on your answer did "The Deflator" act independently or under shall we say loose instruction from his QB.

No more pointing at the Wells report saying the science is crap while holding up the Exponent report as gospel. It's hypocritical. Unless you can you analyse it sufficiently to disprove it then you can't say either way whether one is more correct than the other.

I doubt we'll get anything of substance on reply, but I can hope.

[Bad Morty]

Yet for all you will pick at scientific testimony or opinion that doesn't agree with your own you've yet to disprove what ColtsBlueFL has presented.

I'm not a scientist, so I can't speak to the validity or invalidity of his experiments. I am genuinely in admiration of the work he did on it...but it's been a long time since I took a chemistry class. I need to speak about the topic on a far more basic level. So maybe CBF will help me out with this...does he feel, after all of his analysis on it, that it's strong science to form a conclusion on how much a set of footballs deflated from Point A to Point B given that there is no written record of the values at Point A nor is there a record of the gauge that was used to ascertain the Point A values on a recollection after the fact basis? Because I'm pretty sure if I was back in my 10th grade chemistry class and I turned in homework that said "here are readings I took at Point B for each ball. I didn't record the values at Point A, and I don't remember which gauge I used to measure them, but I'm pretty sure each ball was around 12.5 PSI and while I thought I used this gauge, my brother says I'm wrong about that. Therefore, the balls deflated by an average of (X) PSI", I'd be expecting a pretty lousy grade.

[Gramz]

Enough already.

PLEASE...Put us all out of our misery and table this topic for awhile.

[SteelCityColt]

Declarative statements....

You mean like "Brady didn't hand over his phone because he knew they would find something"...or "The two guys were suspended because they did it"....or "Brady not talking about it proves that he knew about it"...or "Kraft accepted the penalties because he knows they were guilty"...

See this is the hypocrisy that we've been seeing from the beginning. Don't dare ask questions Morty because we'll call you out for making declarative statements!!! But please please please don't catch us doing the same?

Oh wait, I forgot it was a Colts forum. They can have it both ways.

Oh quit being so hyperbolic, while there are Colts fans who will just want to land shots there are some quite willing to discuss this in an adult manner. That means discussion though not blind denial and making statements that can't be substantiated what so ever.

[SteelCityColt]

Enough already.

PLEASE...Put us all out of our misery and table this topic for awhile.

This topic is worse than quitting smoking.. I know it's bad for me. Just.. one..more..last...post.

[Bad Morty]

1) Did a Patriots employee remove the balls from the referees room? Is this illegal? Yes, and Yes it's a violation. Nobody has argued this.

2) Did he take the balls into a bathroom? For what purpose? Yes. As the video turned over by the Pats clearly shows, he did. None of us know for what purpose. You are guessing that it was to deflate balls. Others are saying it was an innocent trip to the bathroom to take a leak. I suspect he was putting a gauge into the balls to make sure they were set properly by the officials. My guess is every bit as plausible as your guess.

3) Explain the discrepancy in PSI observed at half time. Any mention of the Ideal Gas Law requires you show your method and calculations please. We don't know what the discrepancy actually is, since we don't have recorded beginning measurements and we don't know which gauge was used to make the measurements. That's fact.

4) Based on the above answers was the deflation totally natural or linked to 1 & 2? Dependent on your answer did "The Deflator" act independently or under shall we say loose instruction from his QB. Since we don't have any conclusive evidence as to the actual deflation level, we can't answer this question.

[dynasty13]

Oh quit being so hyperbolic, while there are Colts fans who will just want to land shots there are some quite willing to discuss this in an adult manner. That means discussion though not blind denial and making statements that can't be substantiated what so ever.

 

Colts fans have been just as guilty in trying to pass off their opinions as fact and completely shake off any possible explanation other than what they believe. CrazyColt basically admitted to being a hypocrite last night, but its 'ok because it's a Colts forum' therefor the rules don't apply and they can 'have it both ways.'

 

How does that allow in any way for discussing things in an adult manner. 

Edited June 30, 2015 by Nadine
don't talk about other posters like this

[Cynjin]

I know you never said that we had to accept the Wells report as fact...but are you accepting it as fact?

I don't believe I would go as far as to say I accept it completely as fact. I do believe that something happened based on what I have read and I do believe that the two Patriots employees were involved. However, I do recognize that there are limitations with the report. When reading a study the vast majority of the time there are limitations to the study design, data and the results obtained, that does not mean the results are invalidated due to those limitations. When I look at the Wells report and other reports I take those limitations into consideration and then draw my own conclusions.

[Cynjin]

declarative statements?! ! You called me out on this: And I wonder why they "chose not to field the questions"? Could it possibly be because an Ivy League university wasn't willing to compromise it's integrity by selling a rigged science report the way Exponent did?

 

That's a question, not a "declarative statement"!

It's a rhetorical question.

[SteelCityColt]

Colts fans have been just as guilty in trying to pass off their opinions as fact and completely shake off any possible explanation other than what they believe. CrazyColt basically admitted to being a hypocrite last night, but its 'ok because it's a Colts forum' therefor the rules don't apply and they can 'have it both ways.'

How does that allow in any way for discussing things in an adult manner. You have bababooey coming back from his ban and literally asking for another, you have Shane popping in every now and then just to drop a 'you r cheaterzzz' for no reason other than to incite...yet Patriots plans presenting possible explanations for something that has not yet been proven one way or another is the problem here?

In my original reply I made no bones about both sides of the fence having posters needing to behave better... That includes discussion of moderation and back handly calling out for people to be banned. If you want to discuss things like that PM a mod otherwise hold your water.

I'll state this now, there is no favouritism based on fandom. Full stop. It's getting old seeing people crying persecution because they're a Pats fan, or that we let you run riot on a Colts board.

Don't like it? Report it. Don't post a whinge about it, it's not constructive and exercerbates the whole thing.

[dynasty13]

So out of sheer frustration at the roundabout that is this topic, I've condensed it into the following my mind. I'd love to get straight answers, no deflection, no ad hominem to the following:

1) Did a Patriots employee remove the balls from the referees room? Is this illegal?

2) Did he take the balls into a bathroom? For what purpose?

3) Explain the discrepancy in PSI observed at half time. Any mention of the Ideal Gas Law requires you show your method and calculations please.

4) Based on the above answers was the deflation totally natural or linked to 1 & 2? Dependent on your answer did "The Deflator" act independently or under shall we say loose instruction from his QB.

No more pointing at the Wells report saying the science is crap while holding up the Exponent report as gospel. It's hypocritical. Unless you can you analyse it sufficiently to disprove it then you can't say either way whether one is more correct than the other.

I doubt we'll get anything of substance on reply, but I can hope.

 

1. Yes, and it is illegal. The team was punished very harshly for it.

 

2. Yes, he took them to the bathroom, and whether he did use his time in there to deflate the balls or not, that is irrelevant at this point because the team has already accepted the penalty that came as a result of that speculation.

 

3. Because we dont know which gauge was used at the beginning of the game to measure the footballs, there is no way to know what the actual discrepancy was. If the official used the logo gauge at the beginning of the game (which he believed he did), the balls would have actually already had a .4 PSI discrepancy before any of the aforementioned events even occurred.

 

4. This is the remaining question, and the suspension the quarterback received was based purely on speculation and there is no concrete proof to make a claim one way or another.

[ColtsBlueFL]

 So maybe CBF will help me out with this...does he feel, after all of his analysis on it, that it's strong science to form a conclusion on how much a set of footballs deflated from Point A to Point B given that there is no written record of the values at Point A nor is there a record of the gauge that was used to ascertain the Point A values on a recollection after the fact basis?

 

Walt Anderson is on record saying all Patriots balls but two were right at the 12.5 PSI mark AND WERE LEFT ALONE.  Two balls were inflated then aired back down to 12.5 PSI.  So there's your point A dude.  All Pats balls at 12.5 PSI, all Colts balls at 13.0 PSI.

 

Your issue is which gauge.  So do the testing with both!  However, since they were both compared to a master calibrated gauge, and the lower reading non-logo gauge closely matched it, it is easy to accept that the Pats balls did almost all come in at 12.5, and Colts balls at 13.0 PSI (where Sullivan is on record as having set them) matching the non logo and master calibrated gauge.

 

To me, with 3 gauges matching the master (Colts, Pats, non logo that Walt had), and one way off (the logo gauge), I deduce Walt Anderson used the non logo gauge in pre game inspection, that lower reading one that matched the master and confirmed the Colts balls were at 13.0 and 10-12 Pats balls were at 12.5. PSI.

[SteelCityColt]

1. Yes, and it is illegal. The team was punished very harshly for it.

2. Yes, he took them to the bathroom, and whether he did use his time in there to deflate the balls or not, that is irrelevant at this point because the team has already accepted the penalty that came as a result of that speculation.

3. Because we dont know which gauge was used at the beginning of the game to measure the footballs, there is no way to know what the actual discrepancy was. If the official used the logo gauge at the beginning of the game, the balls would have actually already had a .4 PSI discrepancy before any of the aforementioned events even occurred.

4. This is the remaining question, and the suspension the quarterback received was based purely on speculation and there is no concrete proof to make a claim one way or another.

Better than I'd expected!

Now if they'd held their hands up to 1 and possibly 2 from the off I don't think we'd be still talking about this to this level.

The combative attitude of Kraft closing ranks is what escalated this I'm afraid.

[dynasty13]

Better than I'd expected!

Now if they'd held their hands up to 1 and possibly 2 from the off I don't think we'd be still talking about this to this level.

The combative attitude of Kraft closing ranks is what escalated this I'm afraid.

 

And that's probably true. But from the very beginning, the reports that were out there weren't even true. So what was there to stand up and admit?

 

To be completely honest, I actually went back and read the first 20 pages of the original 76 page deflategate thread, and the second that incorrect report about 11 Patriots footballs being 2 PSI under was released, 95% of this forum had made up their mind. Seriously, go back and look at some of the responses immediately after the report was posted...the feelings and anger changed the very second that incorrect fact was heard and that pushed the cart down the hill and it hasn't stopped since...it just shows you how dangerous 'leaks'...especially ones that turn out to be not true...can be and how that completely changes the narrative right off the bat. Everyone always says 'i'll wait to reserve judgement until the facts are out'...but in this case, nobody even pretended to.

 

The Patriots were knocked back on their heals almost immediately because of that report, and they were forced to go on the defense right then and there all because of something that wasn't even true. Can you not honestly say that you would be just as angry if that happened to your team? Would you not then look at every little thing that happens after with a critical and skeptical eye? 

 

I don't blame the Patriots one bit for the way they reacted...and if that contributed to where we are now well it is what it is. Just sucks that the cause of all this was a report based on bull spit. 

[Cynjin]

Declarative statements....

 

You mean like "Brady didn't hand over his phone because he knew they would find something"...or "The two guys were suspended because they did it"....or "Brady not talking about it proves that he knew about it"...or "Kraft accepted the penalties because he knows they were guilty"...

 

See this is the hypocrisy that we've been seeing from the beginning. Don't dare ask questions Morty because we'll call you out for making declarative statements!!! But please please please don't catch us doing the same?

 

Oh wait, I forgot it was a Colts forum. They can have it both ways.

You are acting like the Colts fans are some monolithic entity. If you have an issue with some posters making declarative statements feel free to call them out on that. I do not believe that I have made such statements regarding the current topic, but if I have, show me and I will further explain it or retract it.

You can't claim hypocrisy by taking a post from one or more posters and saying they are not being consistant with other posters comments.

[dynasty13]

You are acting like the Colts fans are some monolithic entity. If you have an issue with some posters making declarative statements feel free to call them out on that. I do not believe that I have made such statements regarding the current topic, but if I have, show me and I will further explain it or retract it.

You can't claim hypocrisy by taking a post from one or more posters and saying they are not being consistant with other posters comments.

 

 Fair enough 

 

Just don't be scared to call out your own the same way ;)

[Cynjin]

Fair enough 

 

Just don't be scared to call out your own the same way ;)

You are correct that I do not call out "my own" the same way, not because I am scared, but I am not sure I would have the time. ;)

[Cynjin]

As I stated before, formulas don't lie.  Use proper statistical analysis and formulas, the only potential fly in the ointment is the input data.  I've found nothing better out there then Exponent report..  Others try to pick a nit here and there and then loudly proclaim they must throw the baby out with the bath water.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxiYJQR5Xx4

Did you really have to put that song in my head, I mean was that really necessary? ;)

[-JJ-]

Although I was being Pedantic Pete in pulling up the poster for portraying it as cheating when it was no such thing it does raise questions both in general and specific to the NFL.

 

Generally drone usage is on the increase, hence the the start of organisations like the FAA clamping down on their use as they become more prevalent and companies explore their commercial applications. The wider issue, which is still a big question in today's society, is this another layer of privacy being pealed back from our lives. 

 

The article itself is a bit of a non story IMO, I can well imagine no one thought to check whether their was any regulations regarding drone usage. I can see more and more teams starting to use them though for filming practice to get a different look at things. But it did make me wonder how hard is it to maintain secrecy at team practices held out in the open now. One line that stood out for me was that "on the whole coaches and players didn't notice the presence of the drone". It does make you wonder how easy it would be to pop a drone up from a remote location and record a team's practice. 

 

 

Sorry for going off topic.. umm.. let me get back on topic... Colts YAY! Pats BOO!

yeah (off topic) I'm against drones which could lead to civilian spying, aircraft near misses or hit even.......

I mean as a society don't we have enough toys to play with?

[-JJ-]

The only thing you might have missed is the none stop grasping for straws with some pretty wild thoughts added in. That is something you already knew so I guess you didn't miss much.

Ah good - thx. thought maybe I missed something like no suspension for Brady

[jvan1973]

Declarative statements....

You mean like "Brady didn't hand over his phone because he knew they would find something"...or "The two guys were suspended because they did it"....or "Brady not talking about it proves that he knew about it"...or "Kraft accepted the penalties because he knows they were guilty"...

See this is the hypocrisy that we've been seeing from the beginning. Don't dare ask questions Morty because we'll call you out for making declarative statements!!! But please please please don't catch us doing the same?

Oh wait, I forgot it was a Colts forum. They can have it both ways.

nobody is forcing you to be here.

[dynasty13]

nobody is forcing you to be here.

 

Very true...but I like being here...and as long as the same rules apply to all I will continue to post here.

[dw49]

Very true...but I like being here...and as long as the same rules apply to all I will continue to post here.

 

 

Funny how you seem to think it's OK that without a doubt some NE fans have done a good deal of "baiting" in this thread. I have not seen any of these posters MIA . Would you like me to waste my time and stick some under your nose ? I will if I have to . To whine about the mods is really chicken crap as there is no way in " helll" they pick on NE fans or allow Colt fans more leeway. 

[ColtsBlueFL]

Did you really have to put that song in my head, I mean was that really necessary? ;)

Done with punishing purpose, trust me. ;-)