Zak Keefer says locker room not good

[w87r]

4 minutes ago, VikingsFanInChennai said:

 

It's all good, my only criticism is how they addressed the situation with Matt Ryan. They could've told frankly that they have made a decision to give Sam the start to assess what he could achieve in the profession league rather than sounding negative on Ryan. They could've just informed Ryan will undergo rehab for the injury, and would support the QB room with his knowledge going forward as they would assess the QB position throughout the rest of the season. It's the way they transitioned looked ugly to me

Yeah Frank could of most definitely handled that a lot better 

 

Wasn't necessary.

[AKB]

8 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

To be fair, WA is a bad team. And Sam fumbled one, and could have had 2 INTs IIRC. One with a deflection by the DL, and a PD by a LB (maybe it was a NB or SS). The ball bounced his way lol... Or he could have had 3 turnovers. 

 

But overall very happy with Sam in his 1st game. But... what happens if NE gets multiple picks tomorrow???

he's not making 30M with guranteeds for next year. He's also a 6th round draft pick. 

 

so to me, it's not the same at all. 

[AKB]

7 hours ago, VikingsFanInChennai said:

The problem is when you bring a new QB into a franchise, even if he's experienced, he'd take time to get used to how the offensive line blocks, who are the weaklinks in pass protection, which RBs and TEs are better in assisting where and when the OL breaks down, which play calls work for the pass protection he gets depending on the matchups, to develop chemistry with his targets in real game situations, what are the strengths of his receivers and where he could throw within their catch radius, etc.,

 

These things can be practiced all off-season but nothing will replicate the true game situations as in playing regular season games against fierce opponents. Less contact drills within the team in off-season and practice drills will not break the QB down like it would happen in actual games. 

 

When a QB gets to a new team and starts for them, the most important help he needs from the organization and fan base is PATIENCE. 

 

Take for example, Russell Wilson or kirk Cousins. Not all situations would play out the way it did for Brady and Stafford. Brady is Brady and Stafford actually got out of a bad situation to an Excellent OL, and as soon as that Olinemen departed, Stafford is struggling this season. Kirk Cousins was cowering behind the offensive line For two full years until the OL was improved one by one. 

 

So, my point is Colts needed to be patient with Matt Ryan. 

 

Instead, the organization and many fans act like the team is one better QB away from winning it all. If they finally draft a franchise QB, please at least practice patience with him. 

Your own example disproves what you are saying.

 

Kirk threw 10 picks his first year Matt had 9 INT halfway through this season.... He actually improved immediately moving to the vikings., he improved in all relevant statistics related to QB efficiancy. 

 

(https://www.nfl.com/players/kirk-cousins/stats/career)

 

What an awful example to try and support a poor narrative. Look, legacy is legacy. We can't take that away from Matt Ryan. But just like legacy is what it is, so is awful play. He played AWFUL. People keep searching high and low for excuses, but I promise you the conversation always ends with, "yeah but he's trash right now".

 

Kirks first two years with MIN

 

30 TD, 10 INT, 7.1 AVG (99.7)

26 TD, 6 INT, 8.1 AVG (107.4)

 

..."Kirk Cousins was cowering behind the offensive line For two full years until the OL was improved one by one...." 

 

he was sacked 40 times his first year, which is kind of high. but he still only throws 10 interceptions the entire year, compared to ryan giving the ball away at a historic rate.

 

then sacked 28, 39, 28 in the next 3 years following. and guess what? never comes close to the amount of balls dropped or intercepted by ryan in a very short 7 game stint. 

 

 

Maybe do a little more digging before you just make blanket statements to try and support a take that doesn't make sense. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GRUMPY OLD MAN]

On 11/4/2022 at 10:48 PM, LJpalmbeacher2 said:

 

But Frank was given a generational left guard. Lol

WHO NOW has a bad back

[Nickster]

On 11/4/2022 at 7:36 AM, 2006Coltsbestever said:

You love stats so here is the lay out:

 

Rivers 4169 yards, 24 TD's/11 INT's, 55 QBR, 68% completion. 11-5 made the playoffs.

 

Wentz 3590 yards, 27 TD's/7 INT's, 54.7 QBR, 62.4% completion. 9-8 missed the playoffs. 

 

It is really not a debate, Rivers was better and threw for 600 more yards than Wentz did in a 16 game season. Rivers at one time was completing 70% of his passes.

 

 

Dude they have identical stats basically but TD/INT ratio.  It’s debatable.

 

I too think Rivers was better, but these stats indicate Wentz was better IMO, especially when you add in the 21 to 0 rushing 1st downs.

 

QBRs are almost identical.

[VikingsFanInChennai]

5 hours ago, AustinnKaine said:

Your own example disproves what you are saying.

 

Kirk threw 10 picks his first year Matt had 9 INT halfway through this season.... He actually improved immediately moving to the vikings., he improved in all relevant statistics related to QB efficiancy. 

 

(https://www.nfl.com/players/kirk-cousins/stats/career)

 

What an awful example to try and support a poor narrative. Look, legacy is legacy. We can't take that away from Matt Ryan. But just like legacy is what it is, so is awful play. He played AWFUL. People keep searching high and low for excuses, but I promise you the conversation always ends with, "yeah but he's trash right now".

 

Kirks first two years with MIN

 

30 TD, 10 INT, 7.1 AVG (99.7)

26 TD, 6 INT, 8.1 AVG (107.4)

 

..."Kirk Cousins was cowering behind the offensive line For two full years until the OL was improved one by one...." 

 

he was sacked 40 times his first year, which is kind of high. but he still only throws 10 interceptions the entire year, compared to ryan giving the ball away at a historic rate.

 

then sacked 28, 39, 28 in the next 3 years following. and guess what? never comes close to the amount of balls dropped or intercepted by ryan in a very short 7 game stint. 

 

 

Maybe do a little more digging before you just make blanket statements to try and support a take that doesn't make sense. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So, you looked up stats and you think you know more than Vikings fans and what they've gone through with Kirk Cousins as QB? 

 

First of all, I never said Cousins with Vikings was worse than Ryan with colts. Do you need the utmost perfect example to understand the context and points? 

 

Cousins as Vikings QB has records of 8-7-1, 10-6, 7-9, 8-9 before having a very good winning season for the first time this year. You mentioned interceptions but left out his fumbling issues and fumbles, fumbles lost. His games against good defenses and playoff teams have been around 0.500 or less. The wonderful stats you pointed out were the speciality of Kirk Cousins, that he'd always find ways to build up beautiful stats and resume in garbage time. Stats don't tell the actual story, film tape does. 

 

When I said he used to cower behind that OL, he'd not make plays that were needed even when he had time, and it happened so many times that they were Firing OCs and installing new offenses every single year, just to find an offense that would work for him. That requires a lot of patience from the organization and fans, meanwhile he's earned over $200 million guaranteed for 1 playoff appearance, maybe we can add this year and count it as 2. Vikings still couldn't defeat playoff teams convincingly and consistently. Colts are trying to bench Ryan for a meagre $20+ million savings relatively, you can't even compare the spending on both QBs and see who's worse for the return on investment. There's so much context there to look at rather than beautiful passing yards and TD:INT ratios.

 

Anyway, I never meant it to be a direct comparison between kirk and Ryan. I mentioned that because Vikings have been so much more (a million times more) patient with Kirk that an organization who benches a veteran QB for cap savings in 6 weeks cannot even come close to understand the meaning of patience. 

 

Anyway, for context, check the conversation between me and @w87r

[AKB]

25 minutes ago, VikingsFanInChennai said:

So, you looked up stats and you think you know more than Vikings fans and what they've gone through with Kirk Cousins as QB? 

 

First of all, I never said Cousins with Vikings was worse than Ryan with colts. Do you need the utmost perfect example to understand the context and points? 

 

Cousins as Vikings QB has records of 8-7-1, 10-6, 7-9, 8-9 before having a very good winning season for the first time this year. You mentioned interceptions but left out his fumbling issues and fumbles, fumbles lost. His games against good defenses and playoff teams have been around 0.500 or less. The wonderful stats you pointed out were the speciality of Kirk Cousins, that he'd always find ways to build up beautiful stats and resume in garbage time. Stats don't tell the actual story, film tape does. 

 

When I said he used to cower behind that OL, he'd not make plays that were needed even when he had time, and it happened so many times that they were Firing OCs and installing new offenses every single year, just to find an offense that would work for him. That requires a lot of patience from the organization and fans, meanwhile he's earned over $200 million guaranteed for 1 playoff appearance, maybe we can add this year and count it as 2. Vikings still couldn't defeat playoff teams convincingly and consistently. Colts are trying to bench Ryan for a meagre $20+ million savings relatively, you can't even compare the spending on both QBs and see who's worse for the return on investment. There's so much context there to look at rather than beautiful passing yards and TD:INT ratios.

 

Anyway, I never meant it to be a direct comparison between kirk and Ryan. I mentioned that because Vikings have been so much more (a million times more) patient with Kirk that an organization who benches a veteran QB for cap savings in 6 weeks cannot even come close to understand the meaning of patience. 

 

Anyway, for context, check the conversation between me and @w87r

yeah i understand all of that, what im saying, simply, is that Ryan has been far worse than Kirk ever has been with the vikings. And not only has he been far worse, but it has been at a historic pace. 

 

The offense was functional with Rivers,

It was functional with Wentz.

 

It looked very dysfunctional with Ryan. 

It looked better with Sam. 

 

The common denominator is that Ryan is washed up. Kirk Cousins is not washed up. Kirk had upside, and they bet on his potential with a better team down the line. What's Ryan gonna be like down the line? If he can't do it now, or at least make it look competitive, make it look like it can work, why not move on now? It's a very simple decision. And that's with only considering the urge for the organization to find the future option. It clearly isn't Ryan, and he isn't good enough to win with the roster at hand.

 

like Reich said, the team isn't good enough for him basically. what's that saying? Ryan can't carry it. So in that case, might as well move on. 

 

furthermore, when you take into account the fact that if he were to get injured in the later half of the season, they would owe him gurantees next year. it's not like they moved on after 2, 3 games.. They gave him half of an NFL season. He had one above average game (took him nearly 60 throws to do it), and a bunch of awful games. 

 

the cherry on top was his shoulder seperation, grade 2 happening. why bet on a washed up vet that couldn't get it done healthy, to come back from a grade 2 shoulder seperation, and then when he comes back, hes gonna what? return to his 2016 MVP form? I doubt it.

 

(as far as the Kirk cousins stats and situational games, I understand that too, having experienced Wentz recently who put up decent stats, but lost us multiple games single handedly. regardless of that, Ryan was on pace to throw 18 interceptions.)

 

[AKB]

46 minutes ago, Nickster said:

Dude they have identical stats basically but TD/INT ratio.  It’s debatable.

 

I too think Rivers was better, but these stats indicate Wentz was better IMO, especially when you add in the 21 to 0 rushing 1st downs.

 

QBRs are almost identical.

not when you add in the timing of the interceptions that Wentz threw. Rivers game management was by far much superior. 

[VikingsFanInChennai]

1 minute ago, AustinnKaine said:

yeah i understand all of that, what im saying, simply, is that Ryan has been far worse than Kirk ever has been with the vikings. And not only has he been far worse, but it has been at a historic pace. 

 

The offense was functional with Rivers,

It was functional with Wentz.

 

It looked very dysfunctional with Ryan. 

It looked better with Sam. 

 

The common denominator is that Ryan is washed up. Kirk Cousins is not washed up. Kirk had upside, and they bet on his potential with a better team down the line. What's Ryan gonna be like down the line? If he can't do it now, or at least make it look competitive, make it look like it can work, why not move on now? It's a very simple decision. And that's with only considering the urge for the organization to find the future option. It clearly isn't Ryan, and he isn't good enough to win with the roster at hand.

 

like Reich said, the team isn't good enough for him basically. what's that saying? Ryan can't carry it. So in that case, might as well move on. 

 

furthermore, when you take into account the fact that if he were to get injured in the later half of the season, they would owe him gurantees next year. it's not like they moved on after 2, 3 games.. They gave him half of an NFL season. He had one above average game (took him nearly 60 throws to do it), and a bunch of awful games. 

 

the cherry on top was his shoulder seperation, grade 2 happening. why bet on a washed up vet that couldn't get it done healthy, to come back from a grade 2 shoulder seperation, and then when he comes back, hes gonna what? return to his 2016 MVP form? I doubt it.

 

True, agreed, as I mentioned before, they could've worded it better while moving on from Ryan. 

 

And, another thing, I don't put all the blame on Ryan for the offense not looking competitive and Ryan himself looking washed up. Reich has been slow every season, this year OL has been worse than before in his tenure, team started with one established WR and one RB each on the offense, while Alec Pierce has seen a surprise growth in such a short time as a rookie. 

 

Anyway, I understand their decision to move on, and Ryan's injury made it necessary, but there are lot of things that need to be improved from head coaching, play calling, offensive scheme, roster, OL to be competitive even if Colts land a franchise QB next year. As it is right now, it is set to fail the QB. Let's see how Sam does for the rest of the season, good luck to him. 

[Nickster]

26 minutes ago, AustinnKaine said:

not when you add in the timing of the interceptions that Wentz threw. Rivers game management was by far much superior. 

It’s debatable Austinn, statistically.  I’m guessing you don’t remembered Rivers’ 3 late ints inside 5 minutes with the game on the line.

 

I think Rivers is better BTW.  But the stats and so called to timing of Wentz InTs is just a comforting narrative that many fans and apparently management has about Wentz last year.  Statistically speaking he was a good QB last year.

 

people don’t want to admit this isn’t and hasn’t been a very string FB roster for some time now.

 

fact is Wentz was 9th  in total QBR according to espn last year for this team.  That’s pretty good.

[AKB]

7 minutes ago, Nickster said:

It’s debatable Austinn, statistically.  I’m guessing you don’t remembered Rivers’ 3 late ints inside 5 minutes with the game on the line.

 

I think Rivers is better BTW.  But the stats and so called to timing of Wentz InTs is just a comforting narrative that many fans and apparently management has about Wentz last year.  Statistically speaking he was a good QB last year.

 

people don’t want to admit this isn’t and hasn’t been a very string FB roster for some time now.

 

fact is Wentz was 9th  in total QBR according to espn last year for this team.  That’s pretty good.

it's not a narrative. i watched the games. and i remember how horrible the timing were on the interceptions.

 

with rivers, there were times where i knew we'd fail based on his arm limitations. with wentz, i never doubted his physical traits, but his decision making in clutch situations. (QBR doesn't really play in, because im talking about a play to play win probability change on a single snap)

 

the best way to measure this is probably win percentage difference tracking. from play to play. I haven't looked into to it, but it would be a great metric for this type of conversation. 

 

and to add to that, Ryan is even worse than Wentz, because the turnovers were just constant. at least with Wentz it was 2 steps forward, 1 step back... not 1 step forward 2 steps back like Ryan. 

 

Id rrank them as such 

 

Luck

Rivers

Wentz

Brissett

(Sam need bigger sample size)

Ryan

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 hours ago, Nickster said:

Dude they have identical stats basically but TD/INT ratio.  It’s debatable.

 

I too think Rivers was better, but these stats indicate Wentz was better IMO, especially when you add in the 21 to 0 rushing 1st downs.

 

QBRs are almost identical.

Rivers completed 68% of his passes, Wentz 62.4%. That isn't close. Rivers also threw for nearly 600 more yards in 1 less game. Rivers was better plain and simple. Not only that we went 11-5 and made the playoffs. He rarely had any costly turnovers like Wentz had. 

[AKB]

1 hour ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Rivers completed 68% of his passes, Wentz 62.4%. That isn't close. Rivers also threw for nearly 600 more yards in 1 less game. Rivers was better plain and simple. Not only that we went 11-5 and made the playoffs. He rarely had any costly turnovers like Wentz had. 

emphasis on costly, and i'd add the adjective, "untimely"

 

not that there's any good time for an interception, except for rare incidents. 

[Defjamz26]

On 11/4/2022 at 10:48 AM, Superman said:

To the bolded, bingo. The QB saga is a damning piece of evidence against Ballard and Reich. It's fair to judge decision makers on the basis of the outcome of their decisions. No one is perfect, but this is a series of decisions that have left the Colts with no viable options at QB moving forward (no disrespect to Sam, but he has a lot to prove, and a short window in which to do so). The only argument they can make is that they haven't actually drafted a potential franchise QB and tried to develop him. But the counter argument is that no one forced them to go down the path they've taken, this is their own doing. It speaks to their judgment. And along the way, the rest of the offense has suffered, and even regressed. I like them both, but they've messed this up, I don't know if they should get another chance to figure it out, and I'm not convinced they're capable of getting it right.

I agree with you and the user you quoted on this. I don’t believe this is the duo who can fix the QB issue. Between Reich’s terrible play calling and Ballard’s flawed drafting ability (plus his refusal to trade away future 1st round picks), there’s no reason to think this duo can find a young franchise QB in the draft, nor should they be given the chance IMO.

On 11/4/2022 at 11:41 AM, Superman said:

Second place in the AFC South? How aspirational! 

 

We're in second place in worst division in the AFC! And the reason we're in second place is because we just got swept by Titans, a team with middling QBing. Oh, and because we tied with the Texans (a team any would-be contender should be able to beat), and got shut out by the Jags, we have no reasonable path to first place in this sorry division. 

I’m glad someone said this. Being 2nd place in this laughing stock of a division isn’t really cause for celebration. And the Colts need to realize that they are now apart of that laughing stock. It’s not like in years past where it was just the Jags or who Texans were the the mediocre/bad teams. No the Colts are very much apart of the laughing stock.

[Fluke_33]

On 11/2/2022 at 7:39 PM, 1959Colts said:

 

I didnt see this until today.  Was the article that wild?

[EastStreet]

11 hours ago, AustinnKaine said:

he's not making 30M with guranteeds for next year. He's also a 6th round draft pick. 

 

so to me, it's not the same at all. 

 

I'm talking purely on performance/output. If we 3 QBs are all failing, doesn't really matter (in terms salary). But having a 20M+ QB riding the bench is embarrassing. 

[AKB]

47 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

I'm talking purely on performance/output. If we 3 QBs are all failing, doesn't really matter (in terms salary). But having a 20M+ QB riding the bench is embarrassing. 

poor QB play is poor QB play.

 

but in my opinion, if you are paying a QB toward the top 15ish range, and he is playing poor, its worse than paying a 6th rounder significantly less for the same output.

 

embarassing as it is, at least they were able to bite the bullet and accept mistake. 

[EastStreet]

Just now, AustinnKaine said:

poor QB play is poor QB play.

 

but in my opinion, if you are paying a QB toward the top 15ish range, and he is playing poor, its worse than paying a 6th rounder significantly less for the same output.

 

embarassing as it is, at least they were able to bite the bullet and accept mistake. 

 

My exact point... Poor is poor. Salary doesn't matter. 

 

Regardless, our situation is a product of a bad OL. If the OL was good, Ryan would likely played much better. And if the OL was good, we wouldn't require a dual threat QB. 

 

Let's just hope Sam is good lol.. It is what it is, right now. Regardless of all the 3 stooges optics. 

[AKB]

22 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

My exact point... Poor is poor. Salary doesn't matter. 

 

Regardless, our situation is a product of a bad OL. If the OL was good, Ryan would likely played much better. And if the OL was good, we wouldn't require a dual threat QB. 

 

Let's just hope Sam is good lol.. It is what it is, right now. Regardless of all the 3 stooges optics. 

seems we agree and disagree at the same time. 

 

I do think salary cap, and salary cap waste is important. If you can get the same level of play for cheaper, thats what we should opt for. Even when its bad for bad. 

[EastStreet]

2 minutes ago, AustinnKaine said:

seems we agree and disagree at the same time. 

 

I do think salary cap, and salary cap waste is important. If you can get the same level of play for cheaper, thats what we should opt for. Even when its bad for bad. 

Oh I agree salary/cap is important. 

 

But... I'll take performance... regardless of salary. The salary waste is only short term embarrassment most times. But bigger issue, the waste translates to lost opportunity (we could have better players regardless of position). Once we've already wasted opportunity (within the season), best player deserves snaps (regardless of salary). 

[AKB]

7 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Oh I agree salary/cap is important. 

 

But... I'll take performance... regardless of salary. The salary waste is only short term embarrassment most times. But bigger issue, the waste translates to lost opportunity (we could have better players regardless of position). Once we've already wasted opportunity (within the season), best player deserves snaps (regardless of salary). 

that's what i was thinking... where would they have spent that cap if they hadn't signed Ryan? Could've been oline, we will never know. just seems wasteful at the moment.  but overall im glad we are done with the stand in acts for QB. 

[crazycolt1]

9 minutes ago, AustinnKaine said:

that's what i was thinking... where would they have spent that cap if they hadn't signed Ryan? Could've been oline, we will never know. just seems wasteful at the moment.  but overall im glad we are done with the stand in acts for QB. 

Kind of hard to spend money on an offensive line when there are zero offensive linemen available.  Just about every GM in the league is trying to find offensive linemen. 

[EastStreet]

40 minutes ago, AustinnKaine said:

that's what i was thinking... where would they have spent that cap if they hadn't signed Ryan? Could've been oline, we will never know. just seems wasteful at the moment.  but overall im glad we are done with the stand in acts for QB. 

IMO... my gut says.. shouldn't have extended to Hines in the first place, and used the money for a legit LT, and kept Glow or Reed.

If we did that... Ryan will still playing lol.. 

[1959Colts]

8 hours ago, Fluke_33 said:

I didnt see this until today.  Was the article that wild?

Nah. It was just Doyel telling about his talk with Irsay. Irsay just rambles on, regarding his involvement, in regards with Ballard and Reich. Hardly any revelations or deep insight into things.