10 Burning WR Questions (bored bye week musings)

[EastStreet]

Bored Bye Week Burning Questions
1. Will the WR musical chairs ever stop, or is chemistry overrated?
2. Is Reich over-rotating pass catchers, or just trying to find lightening in a bottle?
3. When Pittman comes back, should Johnson take over at Z, and TY to slot?
4. Will Fountain and Dulin ever get targets, or early read routes?
5. Will Reich put Harris back on the shelf?
6. Is Reich forcing it too much (first/early read routes) to TY and Pascal (poor catch %)?
7. Can Pittman finally be the big X we've needed for a long time?
8. Will Patmon ever see daylight?
9. With Pittman's return, and Johnson's promotion, will we keep 7, and if not, who goes down.
10. Can Johnson remain consistent, and get past his dropsie history?

 

Fill free to copy/past and answer as you like.

 

------------------------------------Bonus Stuff----------------------------------------------------

 

General Observations 
1. Only 2 WRs have appeared in all 6 games. Only 3 WRs in 5 games.
2. We've seen 3 combined elevation and temp promotes from the PS (Fountain, Johnson, Harris)
3. Our top 2 targeted WRs have sub-60% catch rates (not good comparatively), while Rivers is completing a career high 70% (and top 10 in the NFL) of his throws.
4. Hines, Taylor, Burton, and Cox all have more targets than our 3rd most targeted WR (Johnson). Doyle is the 9th most targeted pass catcher.
5. Dulin and Fountain have only a combined 6 targets in 9 combined games.

6. Advanced stats rate River's supporting skill player cast #18 in the NFL

7. Rivers is ranked #3 in accuracy, and #5 in deep ball accuracy

8. Indy's pass catchers are ranked 14th in separation, and 11th in YAC

 

Hilton (6 games, active) - 298 snaps, 20/37 (54%) for 242, 12.1 Y/R, 6.5 Y/T
-appeared in, and targeted in every game.
Pascal (6 games, active) - 324 snaps, 16/28 (57%) for 198, 12.4 Y/R, 7.1 Y/T
-appeared in, and targeted in every game.
Pittman (3 games, injured) - 141 snaps, 9/12 (75%), for 73, 8.1 Y/R, 6.1 Y/T
-appeared in, and targeted in 3 games
Johnson (3 games, active) - 104 snaps, 9/12 (75%) for 188, 20.9 Y/R, 15.7 Y/T
-appeared in, and targeted in, all 3 games
Campbell (2 games, injured) - 63 snaps, 6/9 (67%) for 71, 11.8 Y/R, 7.9 Y/T
-appeared in, and targeted in 2 games.
Dulin (5 games, active) - 50 snaps, 2/3 (67%) for 40, 20 Y/R, 13.3 Y/T
-appeared in 5 games, and targeted in 3 games (one target in 3 sep games)
Fountain (4 games, active) - 54 snaps, 3/3 (67%) for 23, 11.5 Y/R, 7.7 Y/T
-appeared in 4 games, targeted in two
Harris (1 game promoted, PS) - 12 snaps, 3/3 (100%) for 29, 9.7 Y/R, 9.7 Y/T
-3 targets in one game
Patmon (0 games, active) - 0 snaps - No stats

 

 

[LJpalmbeacher2]

....maybe. 

[EastStreet]

As always @NewColtsFan, we're all waiting for your meaningful and insightful anecdotal contributions....  lol

[twfish]

I am still honestly curious why Patmon hasn't gotten some snaps. We have taken some serious drawbacks on that position with injuries so there's no better time then now to throw him out there and get some reps. 

[danlhart87]

1 minute ago, twfish said:

I am still honestly curious why Patmon hasn't gotten some snaps. We have taken some serious drawbacks on that position with injuries so there's no better time then now to throw him out there and get some reps. 

he's not ready too raw

[twfish]

1 minute ago, danlhart87 said:

he's not ready too raw

#1 then put him on the practice squad and bring someone else who will contribute. #2 You don't get less raw sitting on the bench. He was making plays left and right during training camp and if there is one thing this team needs right now is a playmaker.

[EastStreet]

13 minutes ago, twfish said:

I am still honestly curious why Patmon hasn't gotten some snaps. We have taken some serious drawbacks on that position with injuries so there's no better time then now to throw him out there and get some reps. 

Just my opinion, but there was no reason not to at least get him limited snaps when Pittman went down. 

12 minutes ago, danlhart87 said:

he's not ready too raw

Harris is very raw. We found limited but creative ways to get him touches and experience. 

9 minutes ago, twfish said:

#1 then put him on the practice squad and bring someone else who will contribute. #2 You don't get less raw sitting on the bench. He was making plays left and right during training camp and if there is one thing this team needs right now is a playmaker.

Yep. We heard Rhodes was giving Pittman fits, but at the same time, heard Patmon was looking good vs Rhodes. I know he needs to work on routes, but there are some basic routes we could use him on just to get his feet wet. If we're going to give Dulin and Fountain snaps but not target them, not sure why we can't toss Patmon in for a few snaps.

[richard pallo]

It looks like Rivers is getting it done with a group of WR's that are having trouble getting separation and gaining YAC.  As the coaches try to figure out which of our young receivers are going to eventually make the grade and contribute it might be time for the Colts to trade for a WR at the deadline who could give Rivers a reliable WR who can separate and contribute immediately.  A playmaking WR could be just what our offense needs.  

[EastStreet]

1 hour ago, richard pallo said:

It looks like Rivers is getting it done with a group of WR's that are having trouble getting separation and gaining YAC.  As the coaches try to figure out which of our young receivers are going to eventually make the grade and contribute it might be time for the Colts to trade for a WR at the deadline who could give Rivers a reliable WR who can separate and contribute immediately.  A playmaking WR could be just what our offense needs.  

?? Separation is average at worst #14), and YAC is almost top 10. 

 

IMO, they need to stay the course, settle on 4 guys, and stop over rotating. They won't displace TY or Pascal from the top 4, so you basically have 2 spots filled. Pittman is going to get every opportunity to take one of the 2 remaining spots. That leaves one spot up for grabs. Johnson has played very well in 3 games. If he can remain consistent and not regress to drops, he's likely the next.

[Rally5]

17 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Bored Bye Week Burning Questions
1. Will the WR musical chairs ever stop, or is chemistry overrated?
2. Is Reich over-rotating pass catchers, or just trying to find lightening in a bottle?
3. When Pittman comes back, should Johnson take over at Z, and TY to slot?
4. Will Fountain and Dulin ever get targets, or early read routes?
5. Will Reich put Harris back on the shelf?
6. Is Reich forcing it too much (first/early read routes) to TY and Pascal (poor catch %)?
7. Can Pittman finally be the big X we've needed for a long time?
8. Will Patmon ever see daylight?
9. With Pittman's return, and Johnson's promotion, will we keep 7, and if not, who goes down.
10. Can Johnson remain consistent, and get past his dropsie history?

 

Fill free to copy/past and answer as you like.

 

------------------------------------Bonus Stuff----------------------------------------------------

 

General Observations 
1. Only 2 WRs have appeared in all 6 games. Only 3 WRs in 5 games.
2. We've seen 3 combined elevation and temp promotes from the PS (Fountain, Johnson, Harris)
3. Our top 2 targeted WRs have sub-60% catch rates (not good comparatively), while Rivers is completing a career high 70% (and top 10 in the NFL) of his throws.
4. Hines, Taylor, Burton, and Cox all have more targets than our 3rd most targeted WR (Johnson). Doyle is the 9th most targeted pass catcher.
5. Dulin and Fountain have only a combined 6 targets in 9 combined games.

6. Advanced stats rate River's supporting skill player cast #18 in the NFL

7. Rivers is ranked #3 in accuracy, and #5 in deep ball accuracy

8. Indy's pass catchers are ranked 14th in separation, and 11th in YAC

 

Hilton (6 games, active) - 298 snaps, 20/37 (54%) for 242, 12.1 Y/R, 6.5 Y/T
-appeared in, and targeted in every game.
Pascal (6 games, active) - 324 snaps, 16/28 (57%) for 198, 12.4 Y/R, 7.1 Y/T
-appeared in, and targeted in every game.
Pittman (3 games, injured) - 141 snaps, 9/12 (75%), for 73, 8.1 Y/R, 6.1 Y/T
-appeared in, and targeted in 3 games
Johnson (3 games, active) - 104 snaps, 9/12 (75%) for 188, 20.9 Y/R, 15.7 Y/T
-appeared in, and targeted in, all 3 games
Campbell (2 games, injured) - 63 snaps, 6/9 (67%) for 71, 11.8 Y/R, 7.9 Y/T
-appeared in, and targeted in 2 games.
Dulin (5 games, active) - 50 snaps, 2/3 (67%) for 40, 20 Y/R, 13.3 Y/T
-appeared in 5 games, and targeted in 3 games (one target in 3 sep games)
Fountain (4 games, active) - 54 snaps, 3/3 (67%) for 23, 11.5 Y/R, 7.7 Y/T
-appeared in 4 games, targeted in two
Harris (1 game promoted, PS) - 12 snaps, 3/3 (100%) for 29, 9.7 Y/R, 9.7 Y/T
-3 targets in one game
Patmon (0 games, active) - 0 snaps - No stats

 

 

That's a lot of work, I'm always appreciative of the people here that put that kind of effort into the forum.  So thank you. 

 

I just wrote a post on a different topic that touches on this a little bit.  I'm not sure what to make of the receiver carousel but typically receiver production is a by-product of the QB.  Rivers has a lot to do with it as it relates to schemes etc.  We're way to shotgun dependent (75%) which takes play action out of the equation which we're built for. To me, that's because Rivers like to read the defense but it also works in reverse and makes routes and patterns easier to cover because there's no play action and NOBODY is biting on backfield run fakes from the gun.  My two cents.  Thanks again.

[EastStreet]

44 minutes ago, Rally5 said:

That's a lot of work, I'm always appreciative of the people here that put that kind of effort into the forum.  So thank you. 

 

I just wrote a post on a different topic that touches on this a little bit.  I'm not sure what to make of the receiver carousel but typically receiver production is a by-product of the QB.  Rivers has a lot to do with it as it relates to schemes etc.  We're way to shotgun dependent (75%) which takes play action out of the equation which we're built for. To me, that's because Rivers like to read the defense but it also works in reverse and makes routes and patterns easier to cover because there's no play action and NOBODY is biting on backfield run fakes from the gun.  My two cents.  Thanks again.

Thanks for the kind words, and you're more than welcome. I've become even more of a FB junkie in our new covid-days lol. I've always tried to keep and informed perspective and happy to drop some tidbits on the board when I do some digging. 

 

Yep, the shotgun % make us predictive a bit. I dropped those numbers in another thread yesterday in reply to a poster who was curious. You can read Ds though so long as you have some motion, and can do that in either formation. I think it's just Reich's preference to be honest. We had almost an identical rate with Luck. A little less with Brissett (but you know why).

[AwesomeAustin]

Is Y/T yards the ball travels for the reception?   Do you have the average distance rivers throws each reception and where he ranks against other QBs?   I tried a google search but didn’t see anything

 

 

BTW, excellent write up.  Very enjoyable 

[EastStreet]

4 minutes ago, AwesomeAustin said:

Is Y/T yards the ball travels for the reception?   Do you have the average distance rivers throws each reception and where he ranks against other QBs?   I tried a google search but didn’t see anything

 

 

BTW, excellent write up.  Very enjoyable 

Thank you sir.

 

Y/T is yards per target, Y/R is yard per reception.

 

On the bolded. If you're talking about air yards, 

CAY/A (completed air yards per attempt) 4.3 (11th)

IAY/A (intended air yards per attempt) - 7.5 (20th)

 

The delta between the two would suggest he's in a system that favors dink/dunk (IAY), and also suggest he's highly effective when he goes deeper (the improved CAY rank). We know both are true since Reich is a dink/dunk guy, and River's has the #5 deep ball completion %.

 

[Fisticuffs111]

I guess I’m in the minority that thought Patmon wouldn’t see the field, even with injuries. And that’s coming from somebody who expected to see Cain play early on when we drafted him.

 

Everything I read about him made him seem like quite a project. A big WR who doesn’t yet know how to consistently play as a big WR. 

[EastStreet]

18 minutes ago, Fisticuffs111 said:

I guess I’m in the minority that thought Patmon wouldn’t see the field, even with injuries. And that’s coming from somebody who expected to see Cain play early on when we drafted him.

 

Everything I read about him made him seem like quite a project. A big WR who doesn’t yet know how to consistently play as a big WR. 

Yea, even his coach said he needed to understand how big he is lol... 

 

I first thought the same to be honest. Then the reports from camp led me to believe they were using him perhaps not as a big possession guy. Regardless, he was making plays. I figured since he was making plays, and IF they were using him more in stride (he did a lot of in-stride routes in college), that they we might see him. Then he made the 53, meaning they liked him enough to fear he'd get snatched. So then.... I started to think we'd see him more, and not just take up space.

[Fisticuffs111]

I had somehow forgotten he made the initial 53. And yeah, good points. Especially with the injuries. Seems like Reich has been more comfortable going with guys who have had a year in the system. That should bode well for him next season at least, I guess. If he doesn't get any run before then, that is.

 

I do like Patmon's potential as a deep threat though. He's a unique package, tall and speedy. 

[EastStreet]

Just now, Fisticuffs111 said:

Yeah, I had forgotten he made the initial 53, good point.

I do like his potential as a deep threat. If MJ hadn't come in with familiarity of the offense/been ballin out recently, I wonder if Patmon wouldn't have gotten more run.

 

@AWalkerColts talked a bit about WRs in his mailbag. He mentioned more or less that we've got the out-wide stuff covered more than the inside (slot), which IIRC he pointed out that's why we saw Harris get some targets, while Patmon stays on the shelf. 

 

I don't totally agree with that thinking, but I guess I understand it if that's how the Coaches see things. IMHO, without Mo and Pittman last week, we lacked any semblance of dynamic size. And we have several folks with speed/measurables that could also play inside. Seemed like the perfect storm to see Patmon. Oh well, I'm not a coach lol.

[Fisticuffs111]

33 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

@AWalkerColts talked a bit about WRs in his mailbag. He mentioned more or less that we've got the out-wide stuff covered more than the inside (slot), which IIRC he pointed out that's why we saw Harris get some targets, while Patmon stays on the shelf. 

 

I don't totally agree with that thinking, but I guess I understand it if that's how the Coaches see things. IMHO, without Mo and Pittman last week, we lacked any semblance of dynamic size. And we have several folks with speed/measurables that could also play inside. Seemed like the perfect storm to see Patmon. Oh well, I'm not a coach lol.

 

Lol yeah, I ninja edited my comment before you posted for that exact reason. I wasn’t sure which WR’s played where and figured that played a part.

 

I agree on the Pittman/injury sentiment, and had the same thoughts when he went down. Patmon seemed like kind of a natural replacement to keep some size out there.

[EastStreet]

48 minutes ago, Fisticuffs111 said:

Lol yeah, I ninja edited my comment before you posted for that exact reason. I wasn’t sure which WR’s played where and figured that played a part.

 

I agree on the Pittman/injury sentiment, and had the same thoughts when he went down. Patmon seemed like kind of a natural replacement to keep some size out there.

With all the musical chairs at WR, and shuffles, just not sure how they look at some of the guys.

 

I'd love to see some personnel 101 type articles from Colts.com on some of the units like WR, DL, and DB. Either from Walker or something similar to what Flus did on the D-scheme last year.

[Colt Overseas]

I'm bored too EastStreet, so here are some of my answers:

 

Bored Bye Week Burning Questions
1. Will the WR musical chairs ever stop, or is chemistry overrated? Yes, I think we will settle into a Pittman X, TY slot and MJ Z starting WR core, which I think can be quite good actually. Pascal to feature too obviously. Injuries permitting (touch wood). Rivers to improve timing with TY
2. Is Reich over-rotating pass catchers, or just trying to find lightening in a bottle? It seems that way to me, but haven't been watching games back
3. When Pittman comes back, should Johnson take over at Z, and TY to slot? See 1
4. Will Fountain and Dulin ever get targets, or early read routes? Don't think so barring injury. With Harris looking useful they are ranked 6 and 7 in the depth chart now probably
5. Will Reich put Harris back on the shelf? No, I think he uses him in the short game and how they would have used Campbell
6. Is Reich forcing it too much (first/early read routes) to TY and Pascal (poor catch %)? My issue is more being too predictable in the run game
7. Can Pittman finally be the big X we've needed for a long time? Long term, I think so. He may not have had stellar stats like a Claypool, but he has shown to be a solid pair of hand and reliable on 3rd down. Short term, we still need to rely on TY
8. Will Patmon ever see daylight? Don't think so
9. With Pittman's return, and Johnson's promotion, will we keep 7, and if not, who goes down. 6 (TY, MJ, Pittman, ZP, Harris and Dulin)
10. Can Johnson remain consistent, and get past his dropsie history? Yes, I think he can play a starting role and make 3/4 catches a game.

[NewColtsFan]

On 10/23/2020 at 11:18 AM, EastStreet said:

As always @NewColtsFan, we're all waiting for your meaningful and insightful anecdotal contributions....  lol

 

Note-1:   I never care if any poster and I agree or disagree.   I care far more about the arguments you make to back up your point.   

 

Note-2:   You post a lot.  Not complaining.  And when you post a smart, thoughtful post, as you often do,  I give it a like.  I only give a negative emoji (said or laughing) when I think it's called for.   I don't do it all the time with you.

 

Earlier this week,  you literally wrote that you try to give a player a half a season before making a judgement.   When I got done laughing,  my response was....   Oh, really?    Where was the half season for Okereke?    Where was the half season for Willis?   Where is the half season for Blackmon?    Where is the half season for Burton?    Where was the half season for Brissett?    I'm sure there are more,  but you get the point.    None of these guys got a game, much less a half-season.

 

Okereke:

 

You didn't like him on draft day.   Said he can't play the run.   Somehow in his first year,  Okereke was the highest graded rookie linebacker in the NFL.  Not in the AFC South.  Not in the whole AFC.   But in the entire National Football league.   Now this year, he's not playing the pass well.  And your're all over that.   So, how exactly did Okereke become the highest graded rookie linebacker in the NFL?   Because if a poster only read your posts about him,  one would think Okereke is terrible.  One would think Ballard blew the draft pick.  Your commentary is totally one sided.

 

Willis:

 

You didn't like him from the jump.   You criticized him after the Buffalo pre-seasonn game.   He played a lot his rookie year.  He's starting this year.   He may not be great,  but most think he's pretty good.   You think he's a situational safety in the box...  a hybrid linebacker I think you called him.   The front office and coaching staff think otherwise.

 

Blackmon:

 

Yet another you didn't like on a draft day.   You've been calling him a future STRONG safety from the beginning.   The GM,  the scouting staff,  the HC,  the DC and the position coach -- everyone -- has called him a free safety.   But up until this week,  you've been hinting that you're not yet convinced.   And when Blackmon started making plays,  you told other posters not to get too excited because he was doing it against bad offenses.   Then, he has yet another good game against Cincy and now you're starting to move your position.   Moving like a glacier.   Maybe he's a FS afterall.  So, now you're new argument is that the coaching staff made Hooker look bad by using him in the wrong defense and they're making Blackmon look good by putting him in the right defense.   So, you're now explaining why you've been wrong by blaming the coaching staff.

 

Burton:

 

Didn't like the signing at all.   In fact, while he was injured and before he played a single game you wrote about how you hoped the staff didn't use him too much.   So, he plays his first game,  scores two TD's, one rushing and one receiving, and back you jump to tell posters not to get too excited...   that sincy has a bad defense.  

 

There always has to be an explanation why you're well stated positions seem wrong.   It can't just be that you're wrong.

 

Brissett:   When Jacoby Brissett started off 5-2 there you were telling everyone it was Fools Gold.   You think the rest of the season proves you were right.   Many of us think the fact that he was hurt in the Pittsburgh game which led to his falloff in play is the reason.  Either way, he didn't get a half season from you.   You were negative from the start and shaped your arguments accordingly.

 

Reich:

 

You and I are long on the record on our view on Reich.   And you don't deny that you're argument about the entire 2018 season came down to one game, the playoff game vs. Cincy.   And now it continues.   This week,  you went out of your way to say how much you like Reich (As a GUY!)   He passes the famous Beer Test.   Which brings us to this thread...  it's title is "10 burning questions about our WR group."   But one look at it and it's not hard to see it could also be titled 
"10 more examples of how bad a play caller Frank Reich is.   Or,  Why does Frank Reich suck so much?"  

 

Summary:

 

You have lots of interesting observations.   You think you're protected by the use of Next Gen Stats.   Frankly, I don't think you know how to use them -- at least,  not honestly.   So, my arguments are not that you do or don't like any given player.   It's how you present your argument.   How you present your case.   I'm rarely impressed.   When I am, you get a "like" from me.   Not that you care, and I don't expect you to.   I'm just saying I try to be fair with you.   I give credit when you earn it.   And I show my disapproval when I don't think you're being honest.

 

You give players a half year to show themselves?    Yeah,  that's not true, and I think I just showed it.

 

[Nickster]

On 10/23/2020 at 7:26 PM, EastStreet said:

?? Separation is average at worst #14), and YAC is almost top 10. 

 

IMO, they need to stay the course, settle on 4 guys, and stop over rotating. They won't displace TY or Pascal from the top 4, so you basically have 2 spots filled. Pittman is going to get every opportunity to take one of the 2 remaining spots. That leaves one spot up for grabs. Johnson has played very well in 3 games. If he can remain consistent and not regress to drops, he's likely the next.

Can you find WR downfield route separation as opposed to RB behind and near the LOS numbers?

I would suspect that our WR separation numbers are very low with old TY, slow Pascal whom I like as a complimentary player by the way, and a bunch of p squad guys.

 

I think that would give us a better idea of what is going on out there.  It seems oversimplified to just quote overall numbers when many of our passes are to rbs.

 

Of course these routes are going to have more separation and yacs.

 

You catch a swing pass out if the backfiels. You are normally open by at least 3 to for yds then have some yac after that.  Probably skews your narrative I would think 

[EastStreet]

On 10/25/2020 at 2:38 AM, NewColtsFan said:

 

Note-1:   I never care if any poster and I agree or disagree.   I care far more about the arguments you make to back up your point.   

 

Note-2:   You post a lot.  Not complaining.  And when you post a smart, thoughtful post, as you often do,  I give it a like.  I only give a negative emoji (said or laughing) when I think it's called for.   I don't do it all the time with you.

 

Earlier this week,  you literally wrote that you try to give a player a half a season before making a judgement.   When I got done laughing,  my response was....   Oh, really?    Where was the half season for Okereke?    Where was the half season for Willis?   Where is the half season for Blackmon?    Where is the half season for Burton?    Where was the half season for Brissett?    I'm sure there are more,  but you get the point.    None of these guys got a game, much less a half-season.

I can critique performance and not make final judgement. If everyone saved their comments till mid or post season, there'd be not traffic on the board except sunshine pumping.

On 10/25/2020 at 2:38 AM, NewColtsFan said:

 

Okereke:

 

You didn't like him on draft day.   Said he can't play the run.   Somehow in his first year,  Okereke was the highest graded rookie linebacker in the NFL.  Not in the AFC South.  Not in the whole AFC.   But in the entire National Football league.   Now this year, he's not playing the pass well.  And your're all over that.   So, how exactly did Okereke become the highest graded rookie linebacker in the NFL?   Because if a poster only read your posts about him,  one would think Okereke is terrible.  One would think Ballard blew the draft pick.  Your commentary is totally one sided.

I've also said he played better the last half of the season than early on. He's also played poorly this year. He's noticeably lost on a lot of plays, is allowing the highest completion rate of any major contributing DB and LB, etc.. 

 

I get it, you're a Stanford fan. He's struggled at times this year which is reflected in his stats and sub 50 pff. I've complemented him when he's done well, but I'll call it out if he's played bad. 

On 10/25/2020 at 2:38 AM, NewColtsFan said:

 

Willis:

 

You didn't like him from the jump.   You criticized him after the Buffalo pre-seasonn game.   He played a lot his rookie year.  He's starting this year.   He may not be great,  but most think he's pretty good.   You think he's a situational safety in the box...  a hybrid linebacker I think you called him.   The front office and coaching staff think otherwise.

Nope, didn't like the pick. Everyone has picks they like and dislike. I was highly complimentary of him, and his improved catch rate allowed. I guess you missed that.... I could really care less how someone else sees him. The fact he's playing the roll that I described in our lip/riz formations, means, well, they might agree with me. The fact he's not playing deep much, means, well, they might agree with me. The fact he has the lowest DADOT on the team, means, well, they might agree with me. lol

 

On 10/25/2020 at 2:38 AM, NewColtsFan said:

 

Blackmon:

 

Yet another you didn't like on a draft day.   You've been calling him a future STRONG safety from the beginning.   The GM,  the scouting staff,  the HC,  the DC and the position coach -- everyone -- has called him a free safety.   But up until this week,  you've been hinting that you're not yet convinced.   And when Blackmon started making plays,  you told other posters not to get too excited because he was doing it against bad offenses.   Then, he has yet another good game against Cincy and now you're starting to move your position.   Moving like a glacier.   Maybe he's a FS afterall.  So, now you're new argument is that the coaching staff made Hooker look bad by using him in the wrong defense and they're making Blackmon look good by putting him in the right defense.   So, you're now explaining why you've been wrong by blaming the coaching staff.

We'll see. What I also said, is that I hope I'm wrong..... And I was pretty clear and specific about my critique. I love what he's doing thus far were my words. And he still hasn't been tested deep by a good QB. And like I said, I'll reserve my judgement till I see him in that situation.

 

On 10/25/2020 at 2:38 AM, NewColtsFan said:

 

Burton:

 

Didn't like the signing at all.   In fact, while he was injured and before he played a single game you wrote about how you hoped the staff didn't use him too much.   So, he plays his first game,  scores two TD's, one rushing and one receiving, and back you jump to tell posters not to get too excited...   that sincy has a bad defense.  

 

There always has to be an explanation why you're well stated positions seem wrong.   It can't just be that you're wrong.

At least be accurate if you're going to argue. This was not his first game. It's his third game. He looked bad vs Chicago, OK in his second. And what I said early is that he's not a prototypical TE, more a big slot or HB. Guess what, there was article about him more or less being used a WR.... 

On 10/25/2020 at 2:38 AM, NewColtsFan said:

 

Brissett:   When Jacoby Brissett started off 5-2 there you were telling everyone it was Fools Gold.   You think the rest of the season proves you were right.   Many of us think the fact that he was hurt in the Pittsburgh game which led to his falloff in play is the reason.  Either way, he didn't get a half season from you.   You were negative from the start and shaped your arguments accordingly.

5-2 doesn't mean good play. Sorry, but you can't use what the "coaches do" or "say", in one argument, and then ignore it in another. In this case, the coaches moved on from him.

On 10/25/2020 at 2:38 AM, NewColtsFan said:

 

Reich:

 

You and I are long on the record on our view on Reich.   And you don't deny that you're argument about the entire 2018 season came down to one game, the playoff game vs. Cincy.   And now it continues.   This week,  you went out of your way to say how much you like Reich (As a GUY!)   He passes the famous Beer Test.   Which brings us to this thread...  it's title is "10 burning questions about our WR group."   But one look at it and it's not hard to see it could also be titled 
"10 more examples of how bad a play caller Frank Reich is.   Or,  Why does Frank Reich suck so much?"  

 

More anecdotal stuff. Why was he canned in LAC for having the worst balance and one of the worst Os... Why didn't they let him call plays in Philly. Many folks on here have been critical of him. Playoff vs Cincy?? What? We didn't play Cinci in the playoffs. Put the bottle down..

 

I've been critical of him specifically about Miami game and a few others last year (not just one game), and again for the game plan vs Jax and some other stuff this year. Why don't you argue the merits of those posts and reasons, instead of acting like an old lady who can't argue with details or facts. I can list the reasons about game plan and play calling, which I've done. You're only response is chirps...

On 10/25/2020 at 2:38 AM, NewColtsFan said:

Summary:

 

You have lots of interesting observations.   You think you're protected by the use of Next Gen Stats.   Frankly, I don't think you know how to use them -- at least,  not honestly.   So, my arguments are not that you do or don't like any given player.   It's how you present your argument.   How you present your case.   I'm rarely impressed.   When I am, you get a "like" from me.   Not that you care, and I don't expect you to.   I'm just saying I try to be fair with you.   I give credit when you earn it.   And I show my disapproval when I don't think you're being honest.

 

You give players a half year to show themselves?    Yeah,  that's not true, and I think I just showed it.

 

Summary - you don't contribute facts, stats, or any insight. Just chirps, frownies, laughs, and criticism of other posters.

 

And you are correct, I don't really care about your opinion, or if you're impressed or not.

[EastStreet]

On 10/25/2020 at 8:56 AM, Nickster said:

Can you find WR downfield route separation as opposed to RB behind and near the LOS numbers?

I would suspect that our WR separation numbers are very low with old TY, slow Pascal whom I like as a complimentary player by the way, and a bunch of p squad guys.

 

I think that would give us a better idea of what is going on out there.  It seems oversimplified to just quote overall numbers when many of our passes are to rbs.

 

Of course these routes are going to have more separation and yacs.

 

You catch a swing pass out if the backfiels. You are normally open by at least 3 to for yds then have some yac after that.  Probably skews your narrative I would think 

You can see specific WR separation per game on Nextgen in their game center.

[Nickster]

14 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

You can see specific WR separation per game on Nextgen in their game center.

Your the stat guy.  I tried looking up and it’s too tedious for me to find.

[EastStreet]

4 minutes ago, Nickster said:

Your the stat guy.  I tried looking up and it’s too tedious for me to find.

I'll teach you fish, not fish for you

 

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/game-center

 

click on the week in the drop down

 

click on the Colts game

 

scroll down to receiving

[Nickster]

7 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

I'll teach you fish, not fish for you

 

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/game-center

 

click on the week in the drop down

 

click on the Colts game

 

scroll down to receiving

Please do it for me.  I want to be a welfare stat guy. I want free stats.

[dw49]

6 hours ago, EastStreet said:

I can critique performance and not make final judgement. If everyone saved their comments till mid or post season, there'd be not traffic on the board except sunshine pumping.

I've also said he played better the last half of the season than early on. He's also played poorly this year. He's noticeably lost on a lot of plays, is allowing the highest completion rate of any major contributing DB and LB, etc.. 

 

I get it, you're a Stanford fan. He's struggled at times this year which is reflected in his stats and sub 50 pff. I've complemented him when he's done well, but I'll call it out if he's played bad. 

Nope, didn't like the pick. Everyone has picks they like and dislike. I was highly complimentary of him, and his improved catch rate allowed. I guess you missed that.... I could really care less how someone else sees him. The fact he's playing the roll that I described in our lip/riz formations, means, well, they might agree with me. The fact he's not playing deep much, means, well, they might agree with me. The fact he has the lowest DADOT on the team, means, well, they might agree with me. lol

 

We'll see. What I also said, is that I hope I'm wrong..... And I was pretty clear and specific about my critique. I love what he's doing thus far were my words. And he still hasn't been tested deep by a good QB. And like I said, I'll reserve my judgement till I see him in that situation.

 

At least be accurate if you're going to argue. This was not his first game. It's his third game. He looked bad vs Chicago, OK in his second. And what I said early is that he's not a prototypical TE, more a big slot or HB. Guess what, there was article about him more or less being used a WR.... 

5-2 doesn't mean good play. Sorry, but you can't use what the "coaches do" or "say", in one argument, and then ignore it in another. In this case, the coaches moved on from him.

More anecdotal stuff. Why was he canned in LAC for having the worst balance and one of the worst Os... Why didn't they let him call plays in Philly. Many folks on here have been critical of him. Playoff vs Cincy?? What? We didn't play Cinci in the playoffs. Put the bottle down..

 

I've been critical of him specifically about Miami game and a few others last year (not just one game), and again for the game plan vs Jax and some other stuff this year. Why don't you argue the merits of those posts and reasons, instead of acting like an old lady who can't argue with details or facts. I can list the reasons about game plan and play calling, which I've done. You're only response is chirps...

Summary - you don't contribute facts, stats, or any insight. Just chirps, frownies, laughs, and criticism of other posters.

 

And you are correct, I don't really care about your opinion, or if you're impressed or not.

 

 

You really think Okereke is bad in pass coverage ? I have no idea of what the stats say but he excels in this area. I can think of quite a few plays where he had good coverage and the pass was completed ... happens.  Am I also reading that your opinion is that his overall play is bad this year ?  Anyway could you post the stats that render him the worst back seven defender in the NFL ?

[EastStreet]

9 minutes ago, dw49 said:

 

 

You really think Okereke is bad in pass coverage ? I have no idea of what the stats say but he excels in this area. I can think of quite a few plays where he had good coverage and the pass was completed ... happens.  Am I also reading that your opinion is that his overall play is bad this year ?  Anyway could you post the stats that render him the worst back seven defender in the NFL ?

Never said he was the worst back seven in the NFL. I said he gave up the worst catch %, meaning on our team. And sure, catches happen on everyone. They're just happening more on Oke (21 out of 24). He's also totally missed zone hand offs, which have left him completely out of the play. He has improved a bit the last two games. He's still a sub 50 PFF though.

[dw49]

4 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Never said he was the worst back seven in the NFL. I said he gave up the worst catch %, meaning on our team. And sure, catches happen on everyone. They're just happening more on Oke (21 out of 24). He's also totally missed zone hand offs, which have left him completely out of the play. He has improved a bit the last two games. He's still a sub 50 PFF though.

 

I'm guessing that most of those bad stats came from the Jacksonville game ?  That was just a poorly coached hot mess. I like the way he's looked the last few games but hey... beauty is in the eye of the beholder ?  He's seems to be in favor with the coaching staff so that's a good sign. This isn't to say that he's no doubt been out of position on some runs as you say.

[EastStreet]

16 minutes ago, dw49 said:

I'm guessing that most of those bad stats came from the Jacksonville game ?  That was just a poorly coached hot mess. I like the way he's looked the last few games but hey... beauty is in the eye of the beholder ?  He's seems to be in favor with the coaching staff so that's a good sign. This isn't to say that he's no doubt been out of position on some runs as you say.

It was really the first 4 games. Honestly I was surprised. In his defense, I think they are throwing new coverages at the D this year. I think he's responsible for more handoffs now, and probably covering more routes this year (like digs and curls maybe?). The new rip/liz stuff may be a learning curve for him. I was happy with his coverage last year, and most critical of his run defense from the middle, then this year the drop off in coverage really made me go WTH. Like I said, he's picked things up the last couple games.

 

He's also been better vs the run the last couple of games. He was leading the team in missed Ts IIRC before game 5. Perhaps he just needed some time. It'll be interesting to follow, what is hopefully an upward trajectory of his stats and PFF rating. Sub 50 is just not good. He was down around 40 before game 5, and has raised it to 48. He needs to be at least in the 60s. He was in the 70s last year.

[NewColtsFan]

On 10/26/2020 at 7:20 AM, EastStreet said:

I can critique performance and not make final judgement. If everyone saved their comments till mid or post season, there'd be not traffic on the board except sunshine pumping.

I've also said he played better the last half of the season than early on. He's also played poorly this year. He's noticeably lost on a lot of plays, is allowing the highest completion rate of any major contributing DB and LB, etc.. 

 

I get it, you're a Stanford fan. He's struggled at times this year which is reflected in his stats and sub 50 pff. I've complemented him when he's done well, but I'll call it out if he's played bad. 

Nope, didn't like the pick. Everyone has picks they like and dislike. I was highly complimentary of him, and his improved catch rate allowed. I guess you missed that.... I could really care less how someone else sees him. The fact he's playing the roll that I described in our lip/riz formations, means, well, they might agree with me. The fact he's not playing deep much, means, well, they might agree with me. The fact he has the lowest DADOT on the team, means, well, they might agree with me. lol

 

We'll see. What I also said, is that I hope I'm wrong..... And I was pretty clear and specific about my critique. I love what he's doing thus far were my words. And he still hasn't been tested deep by a good QB. And like I said, I'll reserve my judgement till I see him in that situation.

 

At least be accurate if you're going to argue. This was not his first game. It's his third game. He looked bad vs Chicago, OK in his second. And what I said early is that he's not a prototypical TE, more a big slot or HB. Guess what, there was article about him more or less being used a WR.... 

5-2 doesn't mean good play. Sorry, but you can't use what the "coaches do" or "say", in one argument, and then ignore it in another. In this case, the coaches moved on from him.

More anecdotal stuff. Why was he canned in LAC for having the worst balance and one of the worst Os... Why didn't they let him call plays in Philly. Many folks on here have been critical of him. Playoff vs Cincy?? What? We didn't play Cinci in the playoffs. Put the bottle down..

 

I've been critical of him specifically about Miami game and a few others last year (not just one game), and again for the game plan vs Jax and some other stuff this year. Why don't you argue the merits of those posts and reasons, instead of acting like an old lady who can't argue with details or facts. I can list the reasons about game plan and play calling, which I've done. You're only response is chirps...

Summary - you don't contribute facts, stats, or any insight. Just chirps, frownies, laughs, and criticism of other posters.

 

And you are correct, I don't really care about your opinion, or if you're impressed or not.

 

Well....    you still don't make honest arguments....   and you didn't even try to address your post about giving players a half season, when you clearly haven't.     But the goal line always seems to move with you.   The argument always seems to change...    You're good at that.    Anything to try and win the argument.   You'd rather the Colts do poorly and you be right than the other way around.   It's not that way with most people....    it's pretty obvious.

 

 

[NewColtsFan]

4 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Well....    you still don't make honest arguments....   and you didn't even try to address your post about giving players a half season, when you clearly haven't.     But the goal line always seems to move with you.   The argument always seems to change...    You're good at that.    Anything to try and win the argument.   You'd rather the Colts do poorly and you be right than the other way around.   It's not that way with most people....    it's pretty obvious.   In short, you can dish it out,  but you can't take it.

 

Oh, as for Okereke...   Him being a Stanford kid has nothing to do with anything.  I'm typically harder on the Stanford kids than most people here.   And when he was drafted I expressed my surprise as I didn't think he'd done enough at Stanford to be picked 89th, and I said so right here.   Notice I didn't defend him, other than to note that I don't think you've ever even acknowledged that he was the highest graded rookie LB in the entire NFL.   I'm not even sure you've ever posted that.   Talk about LOL!    Revealing, and not in a good way.

 

[EastStreet]

8 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Well....    you still don't make honest arguments....   and you didn't even try to address your post about giving players a half season, when you clearly haven't.     But the goal line always seems to move with you.   The argument always seems to change...    You're good at that.    Anything to try and win the argument.   You'd rather the Colts do poorly and you be right than the other way around.   It's not that way with most people....    it's pretty obvious.

What is dishonest. I use stats and player history for most of my arguments, and when I don't, I clearly label it as opinion. 

 

Giving someone half a year doesn't equate to not being critical of them when they play bad. Oke for instance. He's played very bad some games. I'm critical when he's bad. I've also said in the past, and in this very thread he had good coverage last year, was surprised at his drop off, and has improved the last 2 games. That doesn't erase his first four bad games. I've also even provided a potential excuse for him, saying he may need time with new rip/liz coverage used more.

 

Show me where my argument changes.... My opinion might change over time based on changing performance, which is "honest"....

 

I'd rather see the Colts do poorly????, you're really making stuff up now. I've even said "I hope I'm wrong" many times... 

 

In short, why don't you offer something of substance, instead of acting like an old lady complaining about others with some mysterious but unproven background in sports reporting lol.

[hoosierhawk]

Hang in there EastStreet. You contribute greatly to this board. Don't always agree 100% with all of your opinions but agree with most and find your arguments that I don't agree with compelling. We all can agree and disagree without getting nasty.

[EastStreet]

11 minutes ago, hoosierhawk said:

Hang in there EastStreet. You contribute greatly to this board. Don't always agree 100% with all of your opinions but agree with most and find your arguments that I don't agree with compelling. We all can agree and disagree without getting nasty.

Thanks HH. Appreciate it. Not looking for agreement always, just good factual debate and football chat.

[Myles]

8 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Well....    you still don't make honest arguments....   and you didn't even try to address your post about giving players a half season, when you clearly haven't.    

 

 

He did address it when he posted that it doesn't mean you cannot critique a player before that.    I noticed you didn't say anything about the times he talks positively about a player before the season is half over.  

 

On 10/25/2020 at 2:38 AM, NewColtsFan said:

 

 

Brissett:   When Jacoby Brissett started off 5-2 there you were telling everyone it was Fools Gold.   You think the rest of the season proves you were right.   Many of us think the fact that he was hurt in the Pittsburgh game which led to his falloff in play is the reason.  Either way, he didn't get a half season from you.   You were negative from the start and shaped your arguments accordingly.

 

 

Actually Brissett showed his flaws when he started 15 games in 2017 going 4-11.    

[NewColtsFan]

15 hours ago, EastStreet said:

What is dishonest. I use stats and player history for most of my arguments, and when I don't, I clearly label it as opinion. 

 

Giving someone half a year doesn't equate to not being critical of them when they play bad. Oke for instance. He's played very bad some games. I'm critical when he's bad. I've also said in the past, and in this very thread he had good coverage last year, was surprised at his drop off, and has improved the last 2 games. That doesn't erase his first four bad games. I've also even provided a potential excuse for him, saying he may need time with new rip/liz coverage used more.

 

Show me where my argument changes.... My opinion might change over time based on changing performance, which is "honest"....

 

I'd rather see the Colts do poorly????, you're really making stuff up now. I've even said "I hope I'm wrong" many times... 

 

In short, why don't you offer something of substance, instead of acting like an old lady complaining about others with some mysterious but unproven background in sports reporting lol.

You're dishonest when you say yiou give a player a half season to show what he is before deciding what you think.   I showed a number of examples.  

 

You're dishonest when you decide what Frank Reich is based on what happened in San Diego without talking about what also happened in Philadelphia.   Without also talking about his very good year in 2018.    You play up the bad,  and play down or ignore the good.   

 

You're dishonest when you make a negative prediction, then talk down positive achievements,  and now act like you've supported players like Blackmon or Oke or Willis or Burton all along because they've have more success than you thought they would.  

 

This is not the first time I've made this accusation against you.   Let's not pretend your're surprised.

 

[EastStreet]

13 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

You're dishonest when you say yiou give a player a half season to show what he is before deciding what you think.   I showed a number of examples.  

I will critique weekly performance. I can also not pass judgement till later in the season. 

Not sure why that is hard to understand. 

But it's you, so I expect it.

13 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

You're dishonest when you decide what Frank Reich is based on what happened in San Diego without talking about what also happened in Philadelphia.   Without also talking about his very good year in 2018.    You play up the bad,  and play down or ignore the good.   

Frank didn't call plays in Philly. If we're talking about critiquing play calling, you can't include Philly. Not sure why it's so hard for you to understand that. But again, it's you....

 

13 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

You're dishonest when you make a negative prediction, then talk down positive achievements,  and now act like you've supported players like Blackmon or Oke or Willis or Burton all along because they've have more success than you thought they would.

I can dislike a pick, or acquisition. I can also be critical when they play bad, and positive when they play well. I've been both critical and praising about all the guys you mention. Again, not sure why that's so hard to understand. But again... it's you..

13 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

This is not the first time I've made this accusation against you.   Let's not pretend your're surprised.

Oh I'm not surprised. You're you.