First/Second Team All-Pro

[Coffeedrinker]

IMO you do not trade a generational talent, no matter the position for a potential franchise guy, no matter the position.

 

Now you would trade a generational talent at one position for a generational talent at a high valued position.  So, if Burrow is a generational talent then you trade Nelson but if Burrow is not a generational talent then you don't make the trade.

[w87r]

5 hours ago, Jared Cisneros said:

I wouldn't trade Nelson for the #1 pick by himself let alone include the #13 overall pick!

My initial thought exactly.

[JFreeman]

Anyone would love to have a franchise QB. But trading away our best player on the O-line, maybe on the team, isn't what I would consider. We lost our last QB because we didn't protect him. I really don't want to take a chance at reverting back to the same position. Even if QB is more important.  

[Calmack]

6 hours ago, WarGhost21 said:

PFF is garbage, they screw stuff up yearly. However, I do agree that Davis wasn’t deserving of mention, but I don’t see how 5 INTs with a Pick6 in just 13 games warrants much lower grade than a guy with just a couple more PBUs and only 1 INT in a full 16 games. 

Honest question. Did you watch all of Davis's games? Because it seems you're just comparing stats. I remember a 49er LB named Bowman who had solid stats like Davis, but on tape was a straight beast. Clogging run lanes, making heat seeking sideline tackles, always being in good pass coverage position where he didn't even get the chance to defend a pass because the throw never came etc..  

 

My point is, stats don't tell the whole story. And tbh, I thought Leonard played extremely well, not great, this season. 

[WarGhost21]

20 minutes ago, Calmack said:

Honest question. Did you watch all of Davis's games? Because it seems you're just comparing stats. I remember a 49er LB named Bowman who had solid stats like Davis, but on tape was a straight beast. Clogging run lanes, making heat seeking sideline tackles, always being in good pass coverage position where he didn't even get the chance to defend a pass because the throw never came etc..  

 

My point is, stats don't tell the whole story. And tbh, I thought Leonard played extremely well, not great, this season. 

I barely ever look at stats, I’m a scout so I look at tape for almost everything. Sure, Davis looked good, but he looked only marginally better than last year if any better at all, and he only earned a PFF grade of 75 then, not sure how he got all the way up to above a 90 from combining stats and game film. Nevertheless, I guess I’m not that upset that he made it over Leonard, both had fantastic years and were each very deserving of recognition, but sometimes it’s hard when you have to pick just one. And I guess I will admit that I might be a bit biased in that regard  

[Gigc]

On 1/3/2020 at 10:38 AM, WarGhost21 said:

There is valid thought process in the idea, sure, but Big Q is already a top 15 Offensive player in the league, not just along the line. He’s a top 5 offensive player under the age of 25. With a QB, even Burrow, there are question marks in the draft. Q is not a question mark, he’s an exclamation point. The risk just isn’t worth it IMO

This is is an interesting mind game. anyone here old enough to remember the Elway debacle? we ended  up trading him for a hall of fame OT and QB chris herman. How'd THAT work out?

pretty great for Denver. pretty horrible  for us.

[Introspect]

On 1/3/2020 at 2:42 PM, ColtStrong2013 said:

 

Chase Young is the best player in the draft, and could be something special, so t.it (ridiculous moderators that t.it is censored) for tat with Nelson is the only thing that makes sense to me scenario wise. 

I feel you ColtStrong.... The arbitrary censorship that occurs (not just this website but multiple others) has really dumbed down our society. Phrases or words used by Shakespeare can't even be typed due to this censorship. Forms of communication should be a thing that lifts us to higher plans of thinking. God bless what we've become.

[coltsfan_canada]

On 1/3/2020 at 1:00 PM, Fluke_33 said:

would anyone trade nelson and #13 for #1 this year?

If #1 is Peyton Manning then sure please

[ColtStrong2013]

43 minutes ago, Gigc said:

This is is an interesting mind game. anyone here old enough to remember the Elway debacle? we ended  up trading him for a hall of fame OT and QB chris herman. How'd THAT work out?

pretty great for Denver. pretty horrible  for us.

You aren’t suggesting Joe Burrow is going to be John Elway... right? That’s a pretty horrible analogy to use. 
We need a quarterback. We don’t need to trade our best player to get one. Statistically, just in the last decade, how’s trading up into the top 2 or 3 picks for a qb work out for teams? RG3, Mitch Trubinsky were winners, hah. The Rams and Eagles both traded a lot to move up to get Goff and Wentz, and neither of them played much better than Brissett did this year. They gave up a lot to be marginally better than a qb that we all want to get rid of and feel we should be able to improve from. 

[The Old Crow]

On 1/3/2020 at 1:00 PM, Fluke_33 said:

would anyone trade nelson and #13 for #1 this year?

 
Yes, the ghost of Bob Irsay ! 

[2006Coltsbestever]

On 1/3/2020 at 1:00 PM, Fluke_33 said:

would anyone trade nelson and #13 for #1 this year?

If Peyton Manning or Andrew Luck was there at #1 - yes, otherwise no thanks. Burrow is good but IMO he won't be as great as Peyton was (nobody will for that matter) or as good as Luck was.

[Gigc]

Just sayin. Different positions have vastly different values.

LOVE Q. Love him. But if you think Burrow could be a franchise QB? It's a no brainer. 

Burrow is not Elway. Elway was th esurest thing in the history of the draft. 

All said, I don't think Bengals would be tempted by the offer 

[Gigc]

By the way, there were a lot of experts who didn't think peyton would be peyton. Mechanical, not enough arm, etc etc

[2006Coltsbestever]

Hypothetically for Burrow, I would give up this years #13, 2nd round #34, and next years 1st round pick. That is a ton in itself for a guy that has never played an NFL down. If the Bengals say no, then no deal.

[Defjamz26]

Nelson is the best offensive lineman in the league and it’s not even close.

[Two_pound]

I believe Leonard was the only player in the nfl this year with atleast 100 tackles, 5 interceptions and 5 sacks. And he did that in only thirteen games. 

[GoColts8818]

Both are well deserved.

[Valpo2004]

On 1/3/2020 at 6:18 PM, csmopar said:

And how many OL did we draft and sign trying to protect the QB? A ton!

 

Until Ballard came we where not spending many premium picks on them.  We spent 1st on Kelly the year before Grigson got canned and we spent a 2nd on Mewhort who was good until injuries derailed his career.

 

Ballard before 2018 spent a top 10 pick, a high 2nd rounder, brought in Slauson, brought back Mewhort, claimed Glow off waivers.  Mewhort retired due to injuries and Slauson ended up on IR but Ballard spent almost as much capital in one year as Grigson spent his entire career here.  

[Valpo2004]

On 1/3/2020 at 2:42 PM, ColtStrong2013 said:

 

Mentioning Young is the only thing that makes this post sensible. Nelson was, at the time, the 2nd best player (now the best player) in what will go down as one of the best draft classes ever... I'm not sure Joe Burrow's evaluation grade would be in the same conversation as Nelson for the Colts. It's likely he wouldn't have even a similar impact on this team as Nelson did/does. Chase Young is the best player in the draft, and could be something special, so t.it (ridiculous moderators that t.it is censored) for tat with Nelson is the only thing that makes sense to me scenario wise. No way I'd give up our 1st round pick for that though. Nelson right now would be the best player in this draft and worth a top 3 pick, if not the top pick... He was in 2018 and we were beyond lucky to be able to move down, acquire three 2nd round picks and get him where we did. Game changer on the offensive line.

That isn't to sell short the need to upgrade our quarterback position, or what Chase Young will bring to whoever drafts him... We could greatly use upgrades at both of those positions... That's to speak on what Quenton Nelson is in this league, and that's a future Hall of Famer that is on pace to being one of the greatest players this league's ever seen. That's a sure thing. You don't trade sure things.

 

Some of the best trades in NFL history where trades of sure things.

 

Colts traded Faulk away

Cowboys traded Walker away

 

Those guys where sure things and trading them away helped turn their team around.  

 

Now you don't just give sure things away, you trade them for a lot of draft capital.  But this idea that we shouldn't trade Nelson because he's a sure thing, is quite frankly a wrong one.  

[Dingus McGirt]

On 1/3/2020 at 2:41 PM, Valpo2004 said:

 

Super stud OL are great but the big key to having a good OL is simply not having any glaring weaknesses.  For that amount of draft capital Nelson could be replaced.  I'm not talking about trading the whole OL here.  

 

Again though I'm saying no one would ever offer that trade, so it's a moot point.  

Thank you.  You used the proper term "moot" instead of "mute" as so many do.  

[ColtStrong2013]

4 hours ago, Valpo2004 said:

Now you don't just give sure things away, you trade them for a lot of draft capital.  But this idea that we shouldn't trade Nelson because he's a sure thing, is quite frankly a wrong one.  

No it’s not. Even Ryan Grigson wouldn’t trade a special player away. I guess we should entertain giving T.Y. away too since it’s the “wrong idea” to think we should keep him. We didn’t even get a single pick from Peyton Manning. We cut him. Was it the wrong idea? Don’t think so. He was able to go where he wanted to go instead of us using the guy that built the Colts as trade bait and selling him to the highest bidder.
 

Q is the guy I think we should all want to Horseshoe to embody. “If you are going to play here, we want you to play like Q” should be given to every Rookie and free agent signing from now on. He plays hard, tough, finishes plays, helps his teammates up, and dominates his opponents. That is what the Colts should be about. You don’t trade that. THAT idea is ridiculous. 

[Valpo2004]

1 hour ago, ColtStrong2013 said:

No it’s not. Even Ryan Grigson wouldn’t trade a special player away. I guess we should entertain giving T.Y. away too since it’s the “wrong idea” to think we should keep him. We didn’t even get a single pick from Peyton Manning. We cut him. Was it the wrong idea? Don’t think so. He was able to go where he wanted to go instead of us using the guy that built the Colts as trade bait and selling him to the highest bidder.
 

Q is the guy I think we should all want to Horseshoe to embody. “If you are going to play here, we want you to play like Q” should be given to every Rookie and free agent signing from now on. He plays hard, tough, finishes plays, helps his teammates up, and dominates his opponents. That is what the Colts should be about. You don’t trade that. THAT idea is ridiculous. 

 

I'm not suggesting we go shopping him, I'm operating on a theoretical if they called us up and offered us #1 overall for Q, I would make that trade.  

 

You seem to be making the suggestion that Q is priceless.  That no amount of draft capital would be worth giving him up.  I disagree.  

 

I would only trade Q for several first rounders or #1 overall in this or next year's draft.  (Because those could be traded for several first rounders.)  I wouldn't trade Q for #2 overall + a 2 and a 3 even though the chart might say those are more valuable then 1 overall.  

 

I say this because of the value of specifically two players.  Joe Burrow in this draft and presumably Trevor Lawrence in the next.  The #1 pick essentially guarantee's the holder the right to draft these players and is thus very valuable in these drafts.  #2 is not nearly as valuable.  

 

So if you take this draft I would only trade Q for the Bengal's #1 overall pick or all 3 of the Dolphin's first round picks.  

 

The fact that I value Q as being worth 3 first round picks (which IMO we could get by trading down from #1) should be proof enough of how much I do in fact value the player.  But you are right, I do in fact have a trade price on him.  For you, every 1st round pick for the next 50 years might not be enough.  That's ok, I just don't think that's logical.  

[ColtStrong2013]

1 hour ago, Valpo2004 said:

The fact that I value Q as being worth 3 first round picks (which IMO we could get by trading down from #1) should be proof enough of how much I do in fact value the player.  But you are right, I do in fact have a trade price on him.  For you, every 1st round pick for the next 50 years might not be enough.  That's ok, I just don't think that's logical.  

You said you value Joe Burrow, not 3 first round picks, which you would not get out of the #1 pick.  There’s a big difference. I said earlier Joe Burrow is worthless if he doesn’t have a quality line in front of him, which is what we had before Q came, and what we’d have if he was traded and Castonzo retired (easy decision if Q was traded.)

 

I never implied there isn’t a trading price on him, but it’s one that no one is reasonably going to offer. No one is offering 3 first round picks for a #1. It’s never happened, and for good reason. I wouldn’t trade him for the 1st pick overall if someone offered. I would not. He was the top prospect in one of the best drafts in the last decade. 

[Four2itus]

I wouldn't trade Nelson for 2 first round picks. What are folks arguing about? Trading Nelson...... and weakening our offensive line big time.....and then getting a #1 contract and put him behind a weaker o-line?

 

Have ya'll been paying attention to history?

[ColtStrong2013]

38 minutes ago, Four2itus said:

I wouldn't trade Nelson for 2 first round picks. What are folks arguing about? Trading Nelson...... and weakening our offensive line big time.....and then getting a #1 contract and put him behind a weaker o-line?

 

Have ya'll been paying attention to history?

There’s really no argument to be made. We need an upgrade at quarterback, but not at the expense of the offensive line. Trading Q for a couple first round picks would result in a couple starting caliber players but zero dominant two time all pro players... there’s no comparison to this guy after year 2. Not worth trading, ever.