It's Begun Already...

[mahagga73]

I am talking about purely Super Bowls I am well aware that Johnny U won NFL Championships before the Super Bowl. However as we saw with Super Bowl III and IV just because the NFL team was the best team in the NFL doesn't mean they were the best team in football that year. It's hard to know what would have happened had Now with that said the AFL didn't come around till 1960 so that probably changes the arguement some since Johnny U won his world title before the AFL came around.

Also it's a little different talking about the World Series because there wasn't another league out there that had two of it's champions beat MLB's champions in two of the four title games they played in. So please don't tell me to study my history because I am well aware of it thank you.

uhhh wrong....the NFL was clearly the better league for most all the AFL existence.And you seem to have forgotten MLB did not allow anyone that wasn't white to play for over 70 years.Negro Leaguers and their top clubs were just as good if not better in a lot of cases so going by your argument any World Series before 1947 was a farce.How do you explain that?

[mahagga73]

To me sb rings is a team stat when peyton got his ring he couldnt have did it if our d didnt step up in the playoffs ! how many rings do tom brady have since there d has fell out of the top 10 ! to me if you wanna judge a position only stats for that position should be looked at! everybody that doesnt belive that fail to explain why they think that rings matter but still agree trent dilfer no peyton manning and lets say 9ers or ravens win do we put alex smith and joe flacco in peytons level no ! so i myself thinks that sb rings have nothing to do with how good and where you rank in ur position not ur fault if ur team failed to balance the team a lil better! i may be biass i little but peyton manning is the best to ever touch a football as a qb

uhhh another fallacy.Peyton was mediocre the year we won,the defense and Bob Sanders were the ones who really won it.If you actually take the time to analyze all th PM playoff games it was the offense who failed more than the defense,2005 Oline killed us,04 against Pats,high scoring O stunk.PM hasn't played his best ball in the playoffs,so quit blaming the defense cause that is wrong.

[shakedownstreet]

uhhh another fallacy.Peyton was mediocre the year we won,the defense and Bob Sanders were the ones who really won it.If you actually take the time to analyze all th PM playoff games it was the offense who failed more than the defense,2005 Oline killed us,04 against Pats,high scoring O stunk.PM hasn't played his best ball in the playoffs,so quit blaming the defense cause that is wrong.

i don't know, defense just gets better in the post season, but ours usually didn't. one can look at it anyway one chooses

[GoColts8818]

uhhh wrong....the NFL was clearly the better league for most all the AFL existence.And you seem to have forgotten MLB did not allow anyone that wasn't white to play for over 70 years.Negro Leaguers and their top clubs were just as good if not better in a lot of cases so going by your argument any World Series before 1947 was a farce.How do you explain that?

The two times those world Champions played they split the wins helping lead to the merger. So no it was not clear the NFL was the better league. Most people THOUGHT they were just like they thought the Colts and Vikings would roll over the Jets and Cheifs. People under valued the AFL.

I never said any World Series was a farce now you are putting words in my mouth. I didn't say the NFL Championship game was a face either. I just said they were the NFL Champions which they were. Just because the NFL called them the world champions didn't make it so. Useing your baseball arguement a lot of people thought some of those negro league champions could have beaten the MLB champion. The samething could have happened with the AFL Champion vs. the NFL Champion which is what happened twice in the four meetings between their champions which is the point I was making. Also after the merger AFC teams went on to win nine of the next 11 Super Bowls useing largely old AFL players so there is a very strong case to make that maybe the NFL wasn't as supior as some thought. I view the NFL Champions during the life of the AFL the same as I do the NFC Champion now. Again with that said Johnny U won his two titles before the AFL came around but I feel that was a very different era from the Super Bowl era.

I was talking about Super Bowl Championships here because that is what put people use to argue makes a QB great. That's why I kept it to that. It was not ment to slight Johnny U in any shape or form. Yes he won other NFL Championships and that's great but I was talking about the number of Super Bowls he played in and won compared to Peyton Manning. If you want to include NFL Championships in that that's up to you. I don't view a NFL Championship the same as Super Bowls because of the AFL and ones won before the AFL were a completely different era than the Super Bowls when it was easier to win NFL Championships because there were far few playoff games and about half the teams.

You are more than welcomed to disagre with me on that as another poster did but notice he did it without trying to tell me to study my history or just flat out call my opinion wrong. It's an opinion, while you don't have to agree with mine it doesn't make mine wrong nor does it make yours wrong.

[FireJimCaldwell]

uhhh another fallacy.Peyton was mediocre the year we won.

That is a fallacy. Seems like people look at a stat line as opposed to watching the games.

[Coltswarriors]

Expected. TEAMS win Super Bowls, not individuals. I like Eli a lot, but Peyton will always be the better Manning.

[GoColts8818]

Expected. TEAMS win Super Bowls, not individuals. I like Eli a lot, but Peyton will always be the better Manning.

Exactly, getting the thread back on topic.

I have a few life long Giants fans who are my friends and we watched the game last week and I turned to them and said you know now people are going to start saying Eli is better than Peyton if he wins it all and they started laughing and were like you have to be kidding.

Also Derick Schultz is a life long Giants fan who works for WNDE here in town but grew up in New York spent all week telling people who were trying to argue that Eli was better than Peyton was wrong.

If Giants fans even admit to this I don't think the Peyton hatters have much of a chance for their arguement to catch on other than with other Peyton haters.

[Balzer40]

The entire idea that Eli is better than Peyton is completely ridiculous.

[mahagga73]

The two times those world Champions played they split the wins helping lead to the merger. So no it was not clear the NFL was the better league. Most people THOUGHT they were just like they thought the Colts and Vikings would roll over the Jets and Cheifs. People under valued the AFL.

I never said any World Series was a farce now you are putting words in my mouth. I didn't say the NFL Championship game was a face either. I just said they were the NFL Champions which they were. Just because the NFL called them the world champions didn't make it so. Useing your baseball arguement a lot of people thought some of those negro league champions could have beaten the MLB champion. The samething could have happened with the AFL Champion vs. the NFL Champion which is what happened twice in the four meetings between their champions which is the point I was making. Also after the merger AFC teams went on to win nine of the next 11 Super Bowls useing largely old AFL players so there is a very strong case to make that maybe the NFL wasn't as supior as some thought. I view the NFL Champions during the life of the AFL the same as I do the NFC Champion now. Again with that said Johnny U won his two titles before the AFL came around but I feel that was a very different era from the Super Bowl era.

I was talking about Super Bowl Championships here because that is what put people use to argue makes a QB great. That's why I kept it to that. It was not ment to slight Johnny U in any shape or form. Yes he won other NFL Championships and that's great but I was talking about the number of Super Bowls he played in and won compared to Peyton Manning. If you want to include NFL Championships in that that's up to you. I don't view a NFL Championship the same as Super Bowls because of the AFL and ones won before the AFL were a completely different era than the Super Bowls when it was easier to win NFL Championships because there were far few playoff games and about half the teams.

You are more than welcomed to disagre with me on that as another poster did but notice he did it without trying to tell me to study my history or just flat out call my opinion wrong. It's an opinion, while you don't have to agree with mine it doesn't make mine wrong nor does it make yours wrong.

you said there was not a rival league to compete with MLB,there was The Negro Leagues,it was not invitedto play,therefore bye your own words,much like the time when the AFL and NFL were seperate according to you,it was not a REAL title.Go back and read our own words.You said it,not me.

[GoColts8818]

you said there was not a rival league to compete with MLB,there was The Negro Leagues,it was not invitedto play,therefore bye your own words,much like the time when the AFL and NFL were seperate according to you,it was not a REAL title.Go back and read our own words.You said it,not me.

Read what I said there was no rival league that had two of it's World Champions beat two of the MLB champions. I could be wrong on this part because I am not nearly the baseball buff that i am football buff but to my knowledge the negro league champions and MLB champions never played. So it's just pure speculation. With that said you can make a very strong case that the Negro League champion could have beaten the MLB champion but we'll never know for sure. WIth the AFL and NFL you had two cases out of four where the AFL champion DID beat the NFL champion.

Like someone else said winning the AFL or NFL back then was much like winning the AFC or NFC is today. I told you why I wasn't including Johnny U's World Championships when talking about Super Bowls. If you don't agree with me leaving them out that's fine, however it's not a product of me needing to study my history like you first said.

Also I did go back and read them. I didn't say a word about Johnny U's NFL titles not being real titles because they are real titles. I was saying you could say the NFL Titles Johnny U won were World Titles because there was no AFL when he won his. WIth that said I veiw that as a different era than after when the AFL came into being because there were about half the teams there were after the AFL came into being and often times the only playoff game was the World Title game.

Time to get this topic back on track and just agree to disagree about this.

[JCPatriot]

It was not ment to slight Johnny U in any shape or form. Yes he won other NFL Championships and that's great but I was talking about the number of Super Bowls he played in and won compared to Peyton Manning. If you want to include NFL Championships in that that's up to you. I don't view a NFL Championship the same as Super Bowls because of the AFL and ones won before the AFL were a completely different era than the Super Bowls when it was easier to win NFL Championships because there were far few playoff games and about half the teams.

I don't think anybody is challenging the idea that there is a difference between AFL/NFL championships and Super Bowl championships. What is being challenged is the comment that Johnny U "only" won one Super Bowl when he played 80% of his career before there was a Super Bowl to win. I think even the people that insist on judging QBs by Super Bowl championships alone would agree that is ridiculous. I understand your point and I agree with it to an extent, but it probably would have been best to leave Johnny U out of it and stick to QBs that played their careers in the Super Bowl era.

[Robin]

Am I the only one that see 11 players on the field and not just 1?

[rockywoj]

Don't know how old you are but Bert Jones was on 3 straight division winners and the Colts were a good team in that era.They could not get past the Steel Curtain twice who were the greatest team ever put together,and lost in ot to the Raiders one year,who were also great,had they won that game they would have killed the Broncos at home to go to the Sb,the Broncos capitalized on injuries to get there and get massacred by Dallas.The Colt's started going downhill because he couldn't stay healthy,and that eventually led to the move.So it is not true he played on all crap teams.But your points are all good ones..

Like I said, Bert Jones was a GREAT QB that led a generally mediocre team to the brink of success. Truly a tribute as to just how great of a QB he really was. I think he was the best QB of his time.

[GoColts8818]

I don't think anybody is challenging the idea that there is a difference between AFL/NFL championships and Super Bowl championships. What is being challenged is the comment that Johnny U "only" won one Super Bowl when he played 80% of his career before there was a Super Bowl to win. I think even the people that insist on judging QBs by Super Bowl championships alone would agree that is ridiculous. I understand your point and I agree with it to an extent, but it probably would have been best to leave Johnny U out of it and stick to QBs that played their careers in the Super Bowl era.

What I said was Peyton Manning had played in and won as many super bowls as Johnny U. again there was no disrespecting ment towards Johnny U I was merely talking about Super Bowls.

[Thewholefnshow28]

I would think the team going from 10-6 and making the playoffs to 2-14 all because Manning got hurt would end this kind of crap. This season has been a testament to Peyton's greatness that he has been able to carry an entire franchise for over a decade.

Eli has definitely vaulted himself up the QB ladder,nbut to try and argue he is better then Peyton just reeks of someone trying to say stuff to just get attention.

[Knuckles79]

uhhh another fallacy.Peyton was mediocre the year we won,the defense and Bob Sanders were the ones who really won it.If you actually take the time to analyze all th PM playoff games it was the offense who failed more than the defense,2005 Oline killed us,04 against Pats,high scoring O stunk.PM hasn't played his best ball in the playoffs,so quit blaming the defense cause that is wrong.

Hold a sec didnt i clearly say peyton would have no rings if our d didnt step up in the playoffs! So atleast read my post correctly before u say i am wrong! I if i think peyton is the best thats my opinion read (opinion) so lets try to be right before u jump and say someone is wrong. Down talking people will get u nowhere !

[Knuckles79]

To me sb rings is a team stat when peyton got his ring he couldnt have did it if our d didnt step up in the playoffs ! how many rings do tom brady have since there d has fell out of the top 10 ! to me if you wanna judge a position only stats for that position should be looked at! everybody that doesnt belive that fail to explain why they think that rings matter but still agree trent dilfer no peyton manning and lets say 9ers or ravens win do we put alex smith and joe flacco in peytons level no ! so i myself thinks that sb rings have nothing to do with how good and where you rank in ur position not ur fault if ur team failed to balance the team a lil better! i may be biass i little but peyton manning is the best to ever touch a football as a qb

[Blue Horseshoe]

He is in the same class as Marino.

Each man was the best quarterback of his generation but neither was on a team with a defense.

Other guys like Bradshaw, Montana, and Brady won multiple championships because they had great defenses.

The only time any of these teams had a higher rated offense than defense was 1989 when the offense was #1 and the defense 3.

[Blue Horseshoe]

uhhh another fallacy.Peyton was mediocre the year we won,the defense and Bob Sanders were the ones who really won it.

Are you kidding me? It was the 3rd worst run defense in history! It was #23 in points allowed. Manning was the only reason that team made the playoffs.

[BlueShoe]

http://www.nfl.com/v..._content_stream

--

How is this even a

We all know that Eli has had a better overall team around him for quite some time; however we do need to give Eli some credit. Eli has really come out of the Manning shadow and made his own way.

As Deion would say, " I Believe in Eli!"

Great for him, for the proud Giants fans, and their entire organization.

[mahagga73]

He is in the same class as Marino.

Each man was the best quarterback of his generation but neither was on a team with a defense.

Other guys like Bradshaw, Montana, and Brady won multiple championships because they had great defenses.

The only time any of these teams had a higher rated offense than defense was 1989 when the offense was #1 and the defense 3.

once again it wasnt the defense that lost at least half or more of those playoff games it was the offense.PM was at fault as much as anyone for the fact the has one ring,as much as you all do not want to admit it.But keep blaming the D if it makes you feel better,that PM would have 6 rings if he just had a defense argument is popular ^cowpatties^ propagated by fan boys.Yes,the Colts would never have made the playoffs without him,true,but you cannot let him have a free pass on a lot of these playoff blunders,ala pick 6 against NO,05,04,etc.The one bowl we did win was courtesy of Bab Sanders and a revitalized Defense for the most part.

[mahagga73]

Are you kidding me? It was the 3rd worst run defense in history! It was #23 in points allowed. Manning was the only reason that team made the playoffs.

Not in the playoffs they weren't.where were you,they were awesome against Ravens,Bears,Chiefs,they won that title.

[Cynjin]

once again it wasnt the defense that lost at least half or more of those playoff games it was the offense.PM was at fault as much as anyone for the fact the has one ring,as much as you all do not want to admit it.But keep blaming the D if it makes you feel better,that PM would have 6 rings if he just had a defense arguent is popular ^cowpatties^ propagated by fan boys.Yes,the Colts would never have made the playoffs without him,true,but you cannot let him have a free pass on a lot of these playoff blunders,ala pick 6 against NO,05,04,etc.The one bowl we did win was courtesy of Bab Sanders and a revitalized Defense for the most part.

You have got to be kidding blaming Peyton for the Superbowl loss to New Orleans. The turning point of that game was when the special teams couldn't recover an onsides kick. The defense was horrible in the second half of that game. I do not think that they stopped the Saints once during the second half.

[mahagga73]

It may sound like I am knocking PM,but I am not.The Colt's are probably playing in LA or something without him,no LOS,no playoffs for the most part,empty stadium.He has been great for the city,franchise,league.However,in the playoffs,not so great.Good,not great.But as a lifelong fan,I will take the one I thought I would never see and like it.PM escapes all criticism in Indy for some reason,it's always the defense or something else.I am just pointing out it is as much the ofense fault as the defense,if not more,for having just one ring.

[mahagga73]

You have got to be kidding blaming Peyton for the Superbowl loss to New Orleans. The turning point of that game was when the special teams couldn't recover an onsides kick. The defense was horrible in the second half of that game. I do not think that they stopped the Saints once during the second half.

im not blaming him for the loss but the offense had a lot to do with it.The Saints defense sucked and they only scored 17 stinkin points,that was not good.We were driving for the tie,and then pick 6,was that the D's fault.NO

[SilentHill]

I think the real thing that would be discussed is If Eli is better than Brady..... which IMHO he would be, if he bested him at the SB 2 out of 2 times.

[Cynjin]

im not blaming him for the loss but the offense had a lot to do with it.The Saints defense sucked and they only scored 17 stinkin points,that was not good.We were driving for the tie,and then pick 6,was that the D's fault.NO

The pick 6 was not the D's fault, but the fact that they did not cause a 3 and out, I think, the entire second half sure was.

[dynasty13]

I think the real thing that would be discussed is If Eli is better than Brady..... which IMHO he would be, if he bested him at the SB 2 out of 2 times.

I take it you were one of those Colts fans who thought Brady was better than Peyton back when he 'bested him' twice in the playoffs then???

[SilentHill]

I take it you were one of those Colts fans who thought Brady was better than Peyton back when he 'bested him' twice in the playoffs then???

Oh heck no. Peyton is better than Brady in every way.

Peyton > Eli > Brady

Peyton just has a bad team around him.

[mahagga73]

Oh heck no. Peyton is better than Brady in every way.

Peyton > Eli > Brady

Peyton just has a bad team around him.

yeah james,harrison,wayne,saturday,etc,,what an awful team.you got full blown PM koolaid going.Brady is better in my opinion,he won SB's with Deion Branch as a 1 reciever.get off the fanboy stuff.Pm is up there though,and yes early in the decade of the 2000 the defense was ranked very well.time to stop the excuses.you can admit an opposing player is more successful and be a real fan you know,lol.

[mahagga73]

I take it you were one of those Colts fans who thought Brady was better than Peyton back when he 'bested him' twice in the playoffs then???

anyone who says Eli is better than Brady,even if he wins the SB again,should be committed to life on the top floor of the hospital.

[IcyRhythms]

Eli has a better team and so do Brady, Rodgers, and Big Ben...

If Peyton was on of those teams, he'd have four or five rings already.

[SilentHill]

yeah james,harrison,wayne,saturday,etc,,what an awful team.you got full blown PM koolaid going.Brady is better in my opinion,he won SB's with Deion Branch as a 1 reciever.get off the fanboy stuff.Pm is up there though,and yes early in the decade of the 2000 the defense was ranked very well.time to stop the excuses.you can admit an opposing player is more successful and be a real fan you know,lol.

Wayne isn't that good. I'm a firm believer that Peyton Manning elevates the play of all others around him by at least one tier... So if Reggie Wayne is a WR1 for the Colts he would be a WR2 elsewhere, If Garcon is a WR2 he would be a WR3 elsewhere, etc, etc.

Brady also won SB's by videotaping the other team and studying what plays they were preparing for the game.... Please note they havn't won one since spygate. Coincidence? I think not.

[SilentHill]

anyone who says Eli is better than Brady,even if he wins the SB again,should be committed to life on the top floor of the hospital.

sounds like someone is in denial.