Did Polian Leave Us In Salary Cap Jail?

[GoGoColts]

Discuss

[chrisfarley]

yes and no. while the Peyton issues loom many and most all revelent high-dollar repercussions, many other "old-timers" are costing us a left AND a right you know what. Time to slice the cheese in omni-barrington directions and frito-lay the rest. could provide many fruits for the effort. hopefully our new discector will ruin the odd-taste. check please.

[wercolts]

Not going to be easy, or popular in some cases, but there are a lot of short goodbyes that need to be said.

[GoColts8818]

No he didn't this is what comes with super star players they cost money.

With that said it's going to be hard to manage but if manged correctly I thnk we'll be okay. Like someone else said I think there are going to be some players let go this off-season that is going to make us cringe a little bit when they leave because they are fan favorites.

[John Dee]

Not going to be easy, or popular in some cases, but there are a lot of short goodbyes that need to be said.

Well I agree, and in reality... It is just time to cut ties all together. I have a feeling Peyton and Irsay will sit down and come to the right decision. Which is that if Peyton does keep playing his best chance to win in the short term is NOT in INDY. UNLESS, Indy plans on trading the #1 pick. (Which is what I want to happen) But lets all face it.. for the long term best interest of the franchise picking Luck is what NEEDS to happen. And if it does Peyton will not want to be here.... Would YOU?

I have a feeling Peyton will be in SF or NYJets next season and the Colts will be Manning, Mathis, Freeney, and Bracketless in 2012. It is probably the best thing to do but .... darn I would love to see Peyton in Colt geam for a bit longer.

I just hope IF Manning is not going to be a Colt that they can get at least something for him..... But March the 8th is set in stone unless Manning changes it. Very savy negotiating by Manning and his agent. And kinda poor actually by the Colt organization to let themselves be put in such a SPOT.

Oh well, at least we have the #1 pick...

[ReMeDy]

Time to slice the cheese in omni-barrington directions and frito-lay the rest. could provide many fruits for the effort. hopefully our new discector will ruin the odd-taste. check please.

The only one who could have said that any better is Chris Farley himself. Chris Farley would be proud.

[Warhorse]

He didn't leave us, he was fired.

[mmcrazylikeafox]

Well I agree, and in reality... It is just time to cut ties all together. I have a feeling Peyton and Irsay will sit down and come to the right decision. Which is that if Peyton does keep playing his best chance to win in the short term is NOT in INDY. UNLESS, Indy plans on trading the #1 pick. (Which is what I want to happen) But lets all face it.. for the long term best interest of the franchise picking Luck is what NEEDS to happen. And if it does Peyton will not want to be here.... Would YOU?

I have a feeling Peyton will be in SF or NYJets next season and the Colts will be Manning, Mathis, Freeney, and Bracketless in 2012. It is probably the best thing to do but .... darn I would love to see Peyton in Colt geam for a bit longer.

I just hope IF Manning is not going to be a Colt that they can get at least something for him..... But March the 8th is set in stone unless Manning changes it. Very savy negotiating by Manning and his agent. And kinda poor actually by the Colt organization to let themselves be put in such a SPOT.

Oh well, at least we have the #1 pick...

Manning is a class act and has taken less money more than once when his contract was up just to keep other players we couldn't afford to keep otherwise. Peyton also said he could and would be willing to co-exist with Andrew Luck on the same team. I have no reason to believe otherwise.

[John Dee]

Manning is a class act and has taken less money more than once when his contract was up just to keep other players we couldn't afford to keep otherwise. Peyton also said he could and would be willing to co-exist with Andrew Luck on the same team. I have no reason to believe otherwise.

If Indy keeps Manning and drafts Luck..... that will occupy so much of the cap that Indy will not be able to keep or sign anyone of value.....

In theory it sounds fine... but when #'s start getting crunched.... The Colts ARE rebuilding NOW.

All signs point to Manning being released or traded. Unless Irsay is willing to set this team back 4 or 5 years just to be "loyal"

??????? I don't think he is that stupid, esp after the Polian move.

A new direction is upon us all..... lets embrace it.

[ruksak]

Two of our biggest cap eaters are Freeney and Manning. If asked, I doubt any of us would have protested their respective contracts.

[John Dee]

Two of our biggest cap eaters are Freeney and Manning. If asked, I doubt any of us would have protested their respective contracts.

I have been ...... "crying" about Freeneys for the last 3 years. He has been getting paid QB money for "how many sacks a game?"... and HOW MANY TACKLES....? ...

19M............. Really? OK, Mr. Irsay... if you pay this sum to D Free.... YOU sir are an dipstick, and this is single handedly a severe handicap on the Colts ABILITY to be flexible in FA.

Freeney has been getting QB money for the last several years. He is NOT Julius Peppers. He is NOT close.

Cut ties..... Lets start over.....

[ruksak]

I have been ...... "crying" about Freeneys for the last 3 years. He has been getting paid QB money for "how many sacks a game?"... and HOW MANY TACKLES....? ...

19M............. Really? OK, Mr. Irsay... if you pay this sum to D Free.... YOU sir are an dipstick, and this is single handedly a severe handicap on the Colts ABILITY to be flexible in FA.

Freeney has been getting QB money for the last several years. He is NOT Julius Peppers. He is NOT close.

Cut ties..... Lets start over.....

lol.....I guess I was wrong.

But the alternative was to let him go somewhere that would have been glad to pay him QB money. I agree it was a bit much, but do you think it would've been wise to let him walk only to pay some bum to replace him?

[John Dee]

lol.....I guess I was wrong.

But the alternative was to let him go somewhere that would have been glad to pay him QB money. I agree it was a bit much, but do you think it would've been wise to let him walk only to pay some bum to replace him?

Freeney has been the most overpaid player in he NFL the last 3 years. His sack numbers are fine. But, he does NOTHING else. Nothing...

And yes a solid SS or CB, or OL and that money is better spent. Dwight is a one or two highlight a game player. NOTHING else.... Nothing. Look his numbers up. Mathis's stats dwarfed DFREES.

It seems everyone on this board wants to keep the "name" DFree... when the one that "hustles" and "makes plays" is the one making nothing.

I want Mathis back.... and lets trade Freeney.

[ruksak]

Freeney has been the most overpaid player in he NFL the last 3 years. His sack numbers are fine. But, he does NOTHING else. Nothing...

And yes a solid SS or CB, or OL and that money is better spent. Dwight is a one or two highlight a game player. NOTHING else.... Nothing. Look his numbers up. Mathis's stats dwarfed DFREES.

It seems everyone on this board wants to keep the "name" DFree... when the one that "hustles" and "makes plays" is the one making nothing.

I want Mathis back.... and lets trade Freeney.

I'm not altogether opposed to this. Mathis = the most underrated DE in the League.

[John Dee]

I'm not altogether opposed to this. Mathis = the most underrated DE in the League.

Yep... and I don't even want DF's contract re worked. Let him go, eat the cap hit and move on. This team is at a really "sticky" point. I say eat a year or two of ...... average "talent"... (which would be debatable) And in a couple of years be fresh and shiny like new...... a NEW LUCKY CHARM.

[chad72]

I think the reason Polians got Freeney's and Manning's contract worked out the way they did was probably with an idea to not re-sign Mathis and re-work Freeney should Hughes pan out. Hughes being a question mark, no way do they risk not re-signing Mathis. Same thing with Donald Brown. If Donald Brown showed what he showed this year a year earlier, Addai may not have been re-signed.

To me, Clark and Freeney's contracts need to be re-structured. Mathis' contract should be done and be back loaded again like his previous contract because of 2012 cap mess we are in. Manning's contract should be re-done too for 2013-2015 giving him a no trade clause, if he is 100% healthy (incentive for him and his agent to re-do their contract, his contract cannot be redone for 2012 however, thus the suggestion).

Wayne, Diem, Brackett can all go while Saturday is retained. That would be one of the ways to get out of this cap mess, IMO. We need 1 more real good draft to become a SB contender again, even with Peyton.

[everybodysgotone]

Discuss

Short answer - "jail" might not be the best term because there will be a way out, but there are serious cap issues we've talked into the ground here. Some of it does stem from methodology over the better part of the last decade. Period. We'll see what we get from here on out, but hopefully the over-paying and record setting contract ways (e.g. Sanders, Hayden, Freeney, etc.) combined with holding spots for non-contributors (e.g. Sanders, Hayden. Bullitt, Hart, Gonzalez, etc.).....are for the most part behind us. These things exacerbated the problems. Hopefully, there will be less salary disparity between haves/have nots within the team = better balance.

Anyone sweating what Andrew Luck or any other top pick will be paid (their first 4yrs anyway), don't worry. This is where the new CBA is a huge help. Cam Newton has 4yrs 22M guaranteed. Von Miller 4yrs 21M guaranteed. Marcell Dareus 4yrs 20M guaranteed. And so on.....

It ^ helps with parity and has shifted the climate with regard to long/short term planning. I think an up to speed talent evaluator such as our new GM, coupled with adjusted approach, will be a good fit.

[JColts72]

All can blame Polian's, but Irsay signs the checks and would have to be on board to what to offer him, Didn't he sign off on 26 mil this 2 and 14 season?

[Thewholefnshow28]

I would not say we are in cap heck, but it is not a pretty place where we are.

Freeney's contract is the pink elephant in the room, but what were the Colts going to do? Without Freeney we have no pass rush. Mathis as shown he cannot generate a pass rush on his own when Freeney has gone down. We have witnessed this defense get ripped to shreds even more without Freeney.

Polian knew this and that is why Hughes was drafted. He knew Mathis was expendable, but sadly Polian whiffed on that pick and now we are >>>ed at DE. We let Mathis walk now and we are stuck with Hughes, Brayton, or Anderson as full time starters and none of them are full time starters.

To me what will put us down the road to cap heck will be taking Luck and keeping Manning. You are going to be tying up almost 20% of your cap in two players and one of them will not be playing.

This offseason could be an ugly one. With the free agents we have and highly paid players with quesiton marks, Dallas Clark, I think the Colts that we knew just a few years ago will be no more. I truly would not be suprised if we went into total rebuild mode and we do not re-sign guys like Mathis, Wayne, Saturday, and a few others and we let Manning walk.

I cannot believe I just typed that. :barf:

Anyone sweating what Andrew Luck or any other top pick will be paid (their first 4yrs anyway), don't worry. This is where the new CBA is a huge help. Cam Newton has 4yrs 22M guaranteed. Von Miller 4yrs 21M guaranteed. Marcell Dareus 4yrs 20M guaranteed. And so on.....

The new CBA is also a huge pain as well. Yes, we will not have to give him a huge contract like Bradford got, but if my memory is correct in year two or three of his contract we have the right to pick up a team option for a fifth year. This fifth year will pay him top tier money, but we have to make that decision really early in his career.

This is where having Manning and Luck on the same team will be a huge problem. If Manning is healthy for another 2-3 years how are you going to know what you have in Luck?

[jwilli69]

All can blame Polian's, but Irsay signs the checks and would have to be on board to what to offer him, Didn't he sign off on 26 mil this 2 and 14 season?

It is called having a GM run the team and then holding him accountable for the actions he took. Make the right moves, pay the money and live another day. Make the wrong moves and it is the knife. Polian made enough bad moves and was polarizing to the team and the fans of the team plus add in a wreck of a season=accountability held=fired. This is how a team is supposed to be ran, not micromanaged. Give your GM the tools to succeed (money and quality organization) and let him do what he was hired for. If Irsay would have said no to this and that move, what good is it to have a GM? The one fault Irsay had with Polian is he let this bad drafting and product go on too long, he probably should have seen through the smoke a few years ago when the team built around Peyton was average to below. Without Manning the past 4 years, this would have been the dismal Detroit Lions during that span.

I think this new GM is green and will make some misteps so I feel like Jim and more specialized people in the Org can help Griggs make solid decisions while he learns good and bad things in the big picture of the team until he can do it independantly. If Griggs has the ability to listen to his field generals, he will succeed wheras Polian stopped listening to his field generals and became a Hitler and executed the people around him who disagreed with him. Give me an excellent capologist and a man who listens to the right people in the org and you have a successful built team.

[jwilli69]

I would not say we are in cap heck, but it is not a pretty place where we are.

Freeney's contract is the pink elephant in the room, but what were the Colts going to do? Without Freeney we have no pass rush. Mathis as shown he cannot generate a pass rush on his own when Freeney has gone down. We have witnessed this defense get ripped to shreds even more without Freeney.

Polian knew this and that is why Hughes was drafted. He knew Mathis was expendable, but sadly Polian whiffed on that pick and now we are >>>ed at DE. We let Mathis walk now and we are stuck with Hughes, Brayton, or Anderson as full time starters and none of them are full time starters.

To me what will put us down the road to cap heck will be taking Luck and keeping Manning. You are going to be tying up almost 20% of your cap in two players and one of them will not be playing.

This offseason could be an ugly one. With the free agents we have and highly paid players with quesiton marks, Dallas Clark, I think the Colts that we knew just a few years ago will be no more. I truly would not be suprised if we went into total rebuild mode and we do not re-sign guys like Mathis, Wayne, Saturday, and a few others and we let Manning walk.

I cannot believe I just typed that. :barf:

The new CBA is also a huge pain as well. Yes, we will not have to give him a huge contract like Bradford got, but if my memory is correct in year two or three of his contract we have the right to pick up a team option for a fifth year. This fifth year will pay him top tier money, but we have to make that decision really early in his career.

This is where having Manning and Luck on the same team will be a huge problem. If Manning is healthy for another 2-3 years how are you going to know what you have in Luck?

I don't believe you have to choose that 5th year option until after the 4th year so it should be no hinderance to the team. That is why it was put in is to pay top candidates good money just not superstar money before they play a down. If they have not blossomed in the 4th year, you cut bait and move on or you can cut earlier without killing your cap that prior 1st picks would have done. I would have to look it up but I am pretty sure that is how I recall them discussing the rules of the new CBA.

[MAC]

Freeney has been the most overpaid player in he NFL the last 3 years. His sack numbers are fine. But, he does NOTHING else. Nothing...

And yes a solid SS or CB, or OL and that money is better spent. Dwight is a one or two highlight a game player. NOTHING else.... Nothing. Look his numbers up. Mathis's stats dwarfed DFREES.

It seems everyone on this board wants to keep the "name" DFree... when the one that "hustles" and "makes plays" is the one making nothing.

I want Mathis back.... and lets trade Freeney.

The stats are largely meaningless. Freeney and Mathis bring constant pressure which is so overwhelming that it dictates the other teams game plan. The defense is built around their special abilities just as the offense is built around Peytons. We had a problem this year with the offense being so bad that the other team rarely "had" to pass - thus limiting sacks and turnovers, with DT injuries limiting the rush, and with coverage being sub-par so that good QBs could pick us to death before the rush got there. When things are working, they work VERY well, and Freeney is about the best in the business. Stars will get paid. And without him Mathis would be considerable less effective. He might be on the opposite side facing double teams on every play, and a complete non-factor.

The problem isn't his salary (this years big final number is one of those cap related idiocies that no player or team actually expects to ever get paid: you are either restructured or released), it's his age, and the fact that Hughes hasn't emerged as a replacement. In my opinion the new GMs decision in this area is far more difficult than at QB. There is a high probability that Peyton and Luck will both be here. It may handcuff the GM a bit, but he won't have much responsibility in the matter. Defense is entirely different. If he decides that Freeney is no longer worth the money, he's either going to have to find some way of replacing him, or take the defense in an entirely different direction with many related changes. If it doesn't work Peyton's health will likely be irrelevant to the teams success next season because we won't be remotely competative anyway.

[smittywerb]

Yes, there are some players that are a little overpaid but no one like Freeney, Brackett, and Hayden. I think over the years, those contracts hurt us the most. There is NO WAY Freeney should be paid $19M. That is insane!

[Superman]

Short answer - "jail" might not be the best term because there will be a way out, but there are serious cap issues we've talked into the ground here. Some of it does stem from methodology over the better part of the last decade. Period. We'll see what we get from here on out, but hopefully the over-paying and record setting contract ways (e.g. Sanders, Hayden, Freeney, etc.) combined with holding spots for non-contributors (e.g. Sanders, Hayden. Bullitt, Hart, Gonzalez, etc.).....are for the most part behind us. These things exacerbated the problems. Hopefully, there will be less salary disparity between haves/have nots within the team = better balance.

Anyone sweating what Andrew Luck or any other top pick will be paid (their first 4yrs anyway), don't worry. This is where the new CBA is a huge help. Cam Newton has 4yrs 22M guaranteed. Von Miller 4yrs 21M guaranteed. Marcell Dareus 4yrs 20M guaranteed. And so on.....

It ^ helps with parity and has shifted the climate with regard to long/short term planning. I think an up to speed talent evaluator such as our new GM, coupled with adjusted approach, will be a good fit.

Well said.

[Superman]

Yes, there are some players that are a little overpaid but no one like Freeney, Brackett, and Hayden. I think over the years, those contracts hurt us the most. There is NO WAY Freeney should be paid $19M. That is insane!

Freeney's deal was structured so that it would HAVE to be addressed this year. I'll be shocked if we let his contract stand the way it is right now.

By the way, the grass is always greener somewhere else. There are tons of overpaid players in the NFL, not just on the Colts.

[smittywerb]

Freeney's deal was structured so that it would HAVE to be addressed this year. I'll be shocked if we let his contract stand the way it is right now.

By the way, the grass is always greener somewhere else. There are tons of overpaid players in the NFL, not just on the Colts.

Oh ok, well I pray to God they address it.

And that is a true statement, but what hampers us is the disparity. the salary cap situation really correlates with our team. To be honest, we tend to lean on a select group of players to make an impact. We throw money at those players and pay little for other less quality players (UDFA, Cast-offs, etc.). Those same players who hamper us when off the field (losing PM, losing Bob and our run D presence, etc.) are/were the same ones hampering us with the salary cap. But the thing is those players are VERY overpayed!

for example, James Harrison makes $51 mil.6 years (That is $5.6 mill a year if you were to just do simple division). Gary Brackett makes $33mil/5 years (that $6.6 mill/year). There is NO WAY Bracket should make more than Harrison. These are the type of contracts that have put us in salary cap jail. Big contracts given to players who don't live up to them.

[jwilli69]

Yes, there are some players that are a little overpaid but no one like Freeney, Brackett, and Hayden. I think over the years, those contracts hurt us the most. There is NO WAY Freeney should be paid $19M. That is insane!

He is not paid 19 mil, it is an accounting thing, a cap # not an actual out of pocket number. He gets his salary plus you get to figure in what his bonus is that gets spread over the length of the contract. He has already ot the bonus and now he is playing for the actual salary this year which I don't recall what that is but he is not making 19 mil this season.

[Superman]

Oh ok, well I pray to God they address it.

And that is a true statement, but what hampers us is the disparity. the salary cap situation really correlates with our team. To be honest, we tend to lean on a select group of players to make an impact. We throw money at those players and pay little for other less quality players (UDFA, Cast-offs, etc.). Those same players who hamper us when off the field (losing PM, losing Bob and our run D presence, etc.) are/were the same ones hampering us with the salary cap. But the thing is those players are VERY overpayed!

for example, James Harrison makes $51 mil.6 years (That is $5.6 mill a year if you were to just do simple division). Gary Brackett makes $33mil/5 years (that $6.6 mill/year). There is NO WAY Bracket should make more than Harrison. These are the type of contracts that have put us in salary cap jail. Big contracts given to players who don't live up to them.

You didn't use a calculator, did you? 51 divided by 6 is 8.5. 33 divided by 5 is 6.6. Gary Brackett doesn't make more than James Harrison. Not to mention the fact that Harrison is guaranteed $20 million, almost twice as much as Brackett's $12 million.

And besides, the structure of Brackett's deal in comparison to Harrison's makes it very simple for us to get out of his deal. And I always expected that we would be after two years. His base salary in 2010 was $880k, in 2011 was $2 million, and in 2012 it jumps to $5 million. I have to believe that Polian and Irsay always intended to revisit his deal before the start of 2012. We'll also probably get a rebate on Brackett's deal for next season, because there's no way he hit his incentives for 2011.

I honestly wouldn't have done a five year deal for Brackett. I probably wouldn't have gone higher than three years, $18 million. But still, his contract isn't that big of a deal. It will be addressed.

[smittywerb]

He is not paid 19 mil, it is an accounting thing, a cap # not an actual out of pocket number. He gets his salary plus you get to figure in what his bonus is that gets spread over the length of the contract. He has already ot the bonus and now he is playing for the actual salary this year which I don't recall what that is but he is not making 19 mil this season.

I just know we are coming out of our pocket too much for a pass-rushing DE. He should be paid, but not like that. As someone else said, he is not a Demarcus Ware or Julius Peppers.

You didn't use a calculator, did you? 51 divided by 6 is 8.5. 33 divided by 5 is 6.6. Gary Brackett doesn't make more than James Harrison. Not to mention the fact that Harrison is guaranteed $20 million, almost twice as much as Brackett's $12 million.

And besides, the structure of Brackett's deal in comparison to Harrison's makes it very simple for us to get out of his deal. And I always expected that we would be after two years. His base salary in 2010 was $880k, in 2011 was $2 million, and in 2012 it jumps to $5 million. I have to believe that Polian and Irsay always intended to revisit his deal before the start of 2012. We'll also probably get a rebate on Brackett's deal for next season, because there's no way he hit his incentives for 2011.

I honestly wouldn't have done a five year deal for Brackett. I probably wouldn't have gone higher than three years, $18 million. But still, his contract isn't that big of a deal. It will be addressed.

Crap, I just looked at my calculator and noticed I put one of the numbers in wrong. Lol, my fault on that. So, from my understanding, our cap situation depends on addressing several big contracts? So when will these players eventually get this money that they have signed for? Or do we have to pay them what is not guaranteed? But yeah, either way he is overpaid. I would have done for 3 years $15 mill to be honest.

[BProland85]

If Indy keeps Manning and drafts Luck..... that will occupy so much of the cap that Indy will not be able to keep or sign anyone of value.....

In theory it sounds fine... but when #'s start getting crunched.... The Colts ARE rebuilding NOW.

All signs point to Manning being released or traded. Unless Irsay is willing to set this team back 4 or 5 years just to be "loyal"

??????? I don't think he is that stupid, esp after the Polian move.

A new direction is upon us all..... lets embrace it.

Completely agree with you. All these fans who want Peyton and Luck together for a couple of years simply arent football smart. You cant occupy that much cap to your QBs and expect to field a team around them. We would be set back and wouldnt even sniff a Superbowl with Peyton while he was still here. We gotta go one or the other. Manning or Luck, and I have a feeling it will be Luck since we are in a rebuilding phase.

[BProland85]

Freeney has been the most overpaid player in he NFL the last 3 years. His sack numbers are fine. But, he does NOTHING else. Nothing...

And yes a solid SS or CB, or OL and that money is better spent. Dwight is a one or two highlight a game player. NOTHING else.... Nothing. Look his numbers up. Mathis's stats dwarfed DFREES.

It seems everyone on this board wants to keep the "name" DFree... when the one that "hustles" and "makes plays" is the one making nothing.

I want Mathis back.... and lets trade Freeney.

Agree I would rather keep Mathis and play him at OLB in a Demarcus Ware role and see what we could get in a trade for Freeney. I think after relieving ourselves of Manning and Freeney we would have more flexibility in FA than we 've had in YEARS. Plus Luck is fully capable and we have other players that can get pressure if they are used properly such as Jerry Hughes, Philip Wheeler, Mathis, Anderson, Nevis, and even Moala.

[esmort]

If Indy keeps Manning and drafts Luck..... that will occupy so much of the cap that Indy will not be able to keep or sign anyone of value.....

In theory it sounds fine... but when #'s start getting crunched.... The Colts ARE rebuilding NOW.

All signs point to Manning being released or traded. Unless Irsay is willing to set this team back 4 or 5 years just to be "loyal"

??????? I don't think he is that stupid, esp after the Polian move.

A new direction is upon us all..... lets embrace it.

I have seen this argument being used often. I do not understand the logic of this argument when it comes to keeping Manning, because regardless of who we draft #1 they are going to get almost the same salary as Luck ... So if we kept Manning and drafted Kalil #1(just for arguments sake) we would still be in the same cap situation. If we do the trade down route, and we trade down to 4th pick and take RG3 to set behind Manning we will have a worse cap situation because the salary between #1 pick & #4 pick is not that great (2011 - #1 pk Newton 4yr/$22 mil ... #4 pk AJ Green 4yr/$19.6 mil), plus we then we still have to pay the other 1st round pick (assuming we traded for Clevelands 2 picks). So keeping Manning and drafting Luck would not be any worse for our salary cap then many other proposed scenarios.

[FireJimCaldwell]

I have seen this argument being used often. I do not understand the logic of this argument when it comes to keeping Manning, because regardless of who we draft #1 they are going to get almost the same salary as Luck ... So if we kept Manning and drafted Kalil #1(just for arguments sake) we would still be in the same cap situation. If we do the trade down route, and we trade down to 4th pick and take RG3 to set behind Manning we will have a worse cap situation because the salary between #1 pick & #4 pick is not that great (2011 - #1 pk Newton 4yr/$22 mil ... #4 pk AJ Green 4yr/$19.6 mil), plus we then we still have to pay the other 1st round pick (assuming we traded for Clevelands 2 picks). So keeping Manning and drafting Luck would not be any worse for our salary cap then many other proposed scenarios.

One slight caveat to your hypothetical. In theory it would be the same dollars and sense in general. Manning + Kalil vs. Manning + Luck, but the difference is that they are in two different positions.

QB would be 17 for Manning

OT approximately 4 for Kalil

vs.

QB approximately 21 for Manning & Luck.

The dollars are essentially the same but they are more diverse when it comes to the salary cap.

Cleveland has 4 & 22. So exchanging those picks based on that would be like comparing Cam Newton vs. A.J. Green and our own Anthony Costanzo.

Year 1

Newton has a cap hit of hit of roughly 4 million. Green & Costanzo total 5.3

Year 2

Newton will be at roughly 5 million. Green & Costanzo total roughly 6.4

Luck/ #1 pick will get about a 4-5 % increase to the Cam Newton deal and it would be a fairly safe estimate to to the same to positions 4 & 22.

So in the end 4 & 22 will earn more than #1, but again, hopefully that would be 2 spots on the roster playing and contributing compared to one that could potentially be only a back up qb/insurance policy/qb of the future.

[esmort]

One slight caveat to your hypothetical. In theory it would be the same dollars and sense in general. Manning + Kalil vs. Manning + Luck, but the difference is that they are in two different positions.

QB would be 17 for Manning

OT approximately 4 for Kalil

vs.

QB approximately 21 for Manning & Luck.

The dollars are essentially the same but they are more diverse when it comes to the salary cap.

Cleveland has 4 & 22. So exchanging those picks based on that would be like comparing Cam Newton vs. A.J. Green and our own Anthony Costanzo.

Year 1

Newton has a cap hit of hit of roughly 4 million. Green & Costanzo total 5.3

Year 2

Newton will be at roughly 5 million. Green & Costanzo total roughly 6.4

Luck/ #1 pick will get about a 4-5 % increase to the Cam Newton deal and it would be a fairly safe estimate to to the same to positions 4 & 22.

So in the end 4 & 22 will earn more than #1, but again, hopefully that would be 2 spots on the roster playing and contributing compared to one that could potentially be only a back up qb/insurance policy/qb of the future.

I understand my scenario was not exact I was simply illustrating that any scenario where we keep Manning and draft the #1 pick is going to equal the same cap hit. I agree if we do not draft luck with that #1 we get someone who can contribute at a different position, but I dont know if that one extra contributor is going to make such a huge difference that it outweighs the benefit of having our future QB.

As far as the 4 and 22 equaling 2 extra first round pick contributors, I can see that as a possibility, but there is a very good chance we still draft a QB with one of those picks which still only gives us 1 extra contributor at a different position (who may or may not make a significant contribution)

I am not advocating one way or the other I have not made up my mind what I think is the best way to go. I am just saying most scenarios pose some sort of cap problem as long as Manning is on the team ... and if Manning returns 100% there is no way I think we should trade Manning.

[FireJimCaldwell]

I understand my scenario was not exact I was simply illustrating that any scenario where we keep Manning and draft the #1 pick is going to equal the same cap hit. I agree if we do not draft luck with that #1 we get someone who can contribute at a different position, but I dont know if that one extra contributor is going to make such a huge difference that it outweighs the benefit of having our future QB.

As far as the 4 and 22 equaling 2 extra first round pick contributors, I can see that as a possibility, but there is a very good chance we still draft a QB with one of those picks which still only gives us 1 extra contributor at a different position (who may or may not make a significant contribution)

I am not advocating one way or the other I have not made up my mind what I think is the best way to go. I am just saying most scenarios pose some sort of cap problem as long as Manning is on the team ... and if Manning returns 100% there is no way I think we should trade Manning.

I'm not certain RGIII would be there at 4. I could see someone jumping up to get him with St. Louis.. I'm like you, I haven't made up my mind on which scenario I like the most.

I don't see trading Manning is an option from the structure of his contract so those thoughts haven't entered my mind. It's either Pick up the option or don't pick up the option.

[Superman]

Completely agree with you. All these fans who want Peyton and Luck together for a couple of years simply arent football smart. You cant occupy that much cap to your QBs and expect to field a team around them. We would be set back and wouldnt even sniff a Superbowl with Peyton while he was still here. We gotta go one or the other. Manning or Luck, and I have a feeling it will be Luck since we are in a rebuilding phase.

Holy...

It's not that much cap space. Matter of fact, if you keep Manning and want a backup worth anything, you're going to be paying pretty much the same money for your quarterbacks as if you drafted Luck #1. Going rate for a decent backup quarterback is $3-5 million. Starting salary for Luck will be around $5-6 million. This isn't a cap or money issue.

You call people who disagree with you "not football smart" but you aren't even considering all the angles.

[Superman]

Crap, I just looked at my calculator and noticed I put one of the numbers in wrong. Lol, my fault on that. So, from my understanding, our cap situation depends on addressing several big contracts? So when will these players eventually get this money that they have signed for? Or do we have to pay them what is not guaranteed? But yeah, either way he is overpaid. I would have done for 3 years $15 mill to be honest.

Yeah, I think we absolutely have to address Freeney's contract, and it only makes sense to do something about Brackett and Clark, and hopefully we can redo Manning's deal to be more cap friendly.

Thing is about cutting a player is that you might save real dollars, but you don't necessarily get the same cap relief. Sometimes, cutting a player can increase his cap figure. I don't fully understand it. But no, you don't have to pay a player non-guaranteed money.

I think the reason we did five years for Brackett was to give him more guaranteed money, but keep his cap hit low for as long as possible. If he gets cut now, he made $15 million in two seasons. If we had done three years, $15 million at $8 million guaranteed, he'd have had a higher cap hit the first two years, and then if he got cut now, he'd have made about $11 million in two seasons. So it has helped us, and can help us more, but it definitely helped him.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Yeah, I think we absolutely have to address Freeney's contract, and it only makes sense to do something about Brackett and Clark, and hopefully we can redo Manning's deal to be more cap friendly.

Thing is about cutting a player is that you might save real dollars, but you don't necessarily get the same cap relief. Sometimes, cutting a player can increase his cap figure. I don't fully understand it. But no, you don't have to pay a player non-guaranteed money.

I think the reason we did five years for Brackett was to give him more guaranteed money, but keep his cap hit low for as long as possible. If he gets cut now, he made $15 million in two seasons. If we had done three years, $15 million at $8 million guaranteed, he'd have had a higher cap hit the first two years, and then if he got cut now, he'd have made about $11 million in two seasons. So it has helped us, and can help us more, but it definitely helped him.

There is not much savings to cutting Brackett this year.

Cut before 2012
7,400,000 2012 Cap hit if playing
7,200,000 2012 Dead Cap Space if cut
200,000 2012 Savings
9,000,000 2013 Savings
9,000,000 2014 Savings

Cut before 2013
9,000,000 2013 Cap hit if playing
4,800,000 2013 Dead Cap Space if cut
4,200,000 2013 Cap Savings
9,000,000 2014 Savings

Freeney has a 14 million base contract and 5 million worth of bonus dollars that construct his 19 million cap hit. A portion, if not most of that 14 million could be turned into a bonus and pro-rated for a 3 year extension that would drop his # considerably and extend him.

Clark

Cut before 2012
$7,320,000.00  2012 Clark Cap hit if playing
$5,580,000.00  2012 Dead Cap Space hit if cut
$1,740,000.00  2012 Cap Savings
$8,120,000.00  2013 Cap Savings if no longer on team

Cut before 2013 but after 2012
8,120,000 2013 Clark Cap hit if playing
2,790,000 2013 Dead Cap space if cut
5,330,000 2013 Cap Savings

Clark has minimal savings by cutting him in 2012 as well.

Once Manning receives the 28 million there isn't much he can do to his contract outside of giving away base salary dollars to improve matters much.

[Superman]

There is not much savings to cutting Brackett this year.

Cut before 2012
7,400,000 2012 Cap hit if playing
7,200,000 2012 Dead Cap Space if cut
200,000 2012 Savings
9,000,000 2013 Savings
9,000,000 2014 Savings

Cut before 2013
9,000,000 2013 Cap hit if playing
4,800,000 2013 Dead Cap Space if cut
4,200,000 2013 Cap Savings
9,000,000 2014 Savings

The savings kick in in 2013, but only if you cut him in this league year. That's why something would be done this year.

Freeney has a 14 million base contract and 5 million worth of bonus dollars that construct his 19 million cap hit. A portion, if not most of that 14 million could be turned into a bonus and pro-rated for a 3 year extension that would drop his # considerably and extend him.

Which kind of has to happen, or else cut or trade him. Neither of those makes as much sense as extending him (call it four years, $50 million, $20 million guaranteed, and drop his 2012 cap to about $10 million.)

Clark

Cut before 2012
$7,320,000.00  2012 Clark Cap hit if playing
$5,580,000.00  2012 Dead Cap Space hit if cut
$1,740,000.00  2012 Cap Savings
$8,120,000.00  2013 Cap Savings if no longer on team

Cut before 2013 but after 2012
8,120,000 2013 Clark Cap hit if playing
2,790,000 2013 Dead Cap space if cut
5,330,000 2013 Cap Savings

Clark has minimal savings by cutting him in 2012 as well.

Same thing. Save a little in 2012 (though more than cutting Brackett), save a lot in 2013.

The savings from cutting Brackett and Clark this year (or trading Clark for a 5th rounder or something) would allow us the flexibility to move some salary for other players into 2013 and 2014.

Once Manning receives the 28 million there isn't much he can do to his contract outside of giving away base salary dollars to improve matters much.

Which is why something needs to be done before the league year expires, right? Hopefully he has another medical checkup before March 1 (which is what he and Polian were discussing), which would allow Irsay to see that he's recovering -- or, better yet, recovered -- and then they can decide to move ahead with a restructured contract. But, unless I'm completely missing the point, it has to be done in this league year, otherwise we can't save any significant cap money.

[coltsIam]

No use trying to sort out things we can't control and most do not understand. That is the new G.M.s job along with Mr. Irsay. The team was kept intact for the main reason of giving us another shot at the SuperBowl that we would be playing in our home stadium. With that behind us, contracts can be

redone....trades will be made and the best possible team will emerge to give the Colts the best chance of winning.