Did Polian Leave Us In Salary Cap Jail?

[jwilli69]

There is not much savings to cutting Brackett this year.

Cut before 2012
7,400,000 2012 Cap hit if playing
7,200,000 2012 Dead Cap Space if cut
200,000 2012 Savings
9,000,000 2013 Savings
9,000,000 2014 Savings

Cut before 2013
9,000,000 2013 Cap hit if playing
4,800,000 2013 Dead Cap Space if cut
4,200,000 2013 Cap Savings
9,000,000 2014 Savings

Freeney has a 14 million base contract and 5 million worth of bonus dollars that construct his 19 million cap hit. A portion, if not most of that 14 million could be turned into a bonus and pro-rated for a 3 year extension that would drop his # considerably and extend him.

Clark

Cut before 2012
$7,320,000.00  2012 Clark Cap hit if playing
$5,580,000.00  2012 Dead Cap Space hit if cut
$1,740,000.00  2012 Cap Savings
$8,120,000.00  2013 Cap Savings if no longer on team

Cut before 2013 but after 2012
8,120,000 2013 Clark Cap hit if playing
2,790,000 2013 Dead Cap space if cut
5,330,000 2013 Cap Savings

Clark has minimal savings by cutting him in 2012 as well.

Once Manning receives the 28 million there isn't much he can do to his contract outside of giving away base salary dollars to improve matters much.

Thanks for the breakdown FJC

[FireJimCaldwell]

The savings kick in in 2013, but only if you cut him in this league year. That's why something would be done this year.

Which kind of has to happen, or else cut or trade him. Neither of those makes as much sense as extending him (call it four years, $50 million, $20 million guaranteed, and drop his 2012 cap to about $10 million.)

Same thing. Save a little in 2012 (though more than cutting Brackett), save a lot in 2013.

The savings from cutting Brackett and Clark this year (or trading Clark for a 5th rounder or something) would allow us the flexibility to move some salary for other players into 2013 and 2014.

Which is why something needs to be done before the league year expires, right? Hopefully he has another medical checkup before March 1 (which is what he and Polian were discussing), which would allow Irsay to see that he's recovering -- or, better yet, recovered -- and then they can decide to move ahead with a restructured contract. But, unless I'm completely missing the point, it has to be done in this league year, otherwise we can't save any significant cap money.

Everything would have to be viewed in a big spreadsheet.. With the cap savings highlighted. The problem with cutting Brackett is that from a cap perspective he's going to count 7.2 if cut, vs 7.4 if he plays. TO me that's throwing 7.2 of cap room that cannot be recreated away.

The same thing with Clark @ 1.7 savings. Cutting Clark & Brackett would tie up 10%+ of the salary cap on players that aren't even on the team. When 2013, rolls around if you cut them both then, it would be 7.5 in total dead space, but still less than the 10%+ we'd be wasting if we did it this year.

What ever year you cut/trade someone is the year you absorb the majority of the cap hit unless it comes after 6/1, then i can be split between the current year and the following year 50/50. From a pure cap$ point of view I see more benefit of taking the hit in 2013 as opposed to 2012, because we would have more cap savings in 2013 than we would in 2012 for that particular year.

If we wanted to declare 2012 a throw away year and absorb as many cap hits as possible by releasing guys like Clark/Brackett to free up $ in future years and being forced to let others go due to the wasted cap space, then that is one train of thought, but you are looking at UDFA's making the league minimum of say 400-500k replacing them.

[jwilli69]

Everything would have to be viewed in a big spreadsheet.. With the cap savings highlighted. The problem with cutting Brackett is that from a cap perspective he's going to count 7.2 if cut, vs 7.4 if he plays. TO me that's throwing 7.2 of cap room that cannot be recreated away.

The same thing with Clark @ 1.7 savings. Cutting Clark & Brackett would tie up 10%+ of the salary cap on players that aren't even on the team. When 2013, rolls around if you cut them both then, it would be 7.5 in total dead space, but still less than the 10%+ we'd be wasting if we did it this year.

What ever year you cut/trade someone is the year you absorb the majority of the cap hit unless it comes after 6/1, then i can be split between the current year and the following year 50/50. From a pure cap$ point of view I see more benefit of taking the hit in 2013 as opposed to 2012, because we would have more cap savings in 2013 than we would in 2012 for that particular year.

If we wanted to declare 2012 a throw away year and absorb as many cap hits as possible by releasing guys like Clark/Brackett to free up $ in future years and being forced to let others go due to the wasted cap space, then that is one train of thought, but you are looking at UDFA's making the league minimum of say 400-500k replacing them.

I think cutting Brackett this year is a must do, we use UDFA or cheap FA LB's anyway and we are going to have some contracts come due next year we will have to deal with. I am kinda 50/50 on the Clark deal but he may be approachable on a new cap friendly deal. You also just know that Freeney will have to redo his contract, no way does he fit in on this team at a 19mil cap hit and he stands to lose 14 mil if he says o and cut outright ( which is unlikely but...) I guess we can all speculate and have an opinion on what is best but until we know the direction of the team, it is really taking an uneducated guess.

[buccolts]

Well, the goods new is we've identified some people who could assist Grigson with salary caps issues.

[gacker65]

To answer the question, the Polians left us in maximum security prison. The last 5 drafts got us very little for all the money handed out.

[FireJimCaldwell]

I think cutting Brackett this year is a must do, we use UDFA or cheap FA LB's anyway and we are going to have some contracts come due next year we will have to deal with. I am kinda 50/50 on the Clark deal but he may be approachable on a new cap friendly deal. You also just know that Freeney will have to redo his contract, no way does he fit in on this team at a 19mil cap hit and he stands to lose 14 mil if he says o and cut outright ( which is unlikely but...) I guess we can all speculate and have an opinion on what is best but until we know the direction of the team, it is really taking an uneducated guess.

A lot of that will depend on what cap room we end up with. We might be able to afford just to throw away 7.2 worth of space, unless they want to toss this year aside and move forward with more of a clean slate in 2013/2014.

You are spot on with Freeney, there is no reason for that not to turn into an extension.

[RobSam]

Don't ya just love all these scenarios being tossed around with WE MUST do this or WE HAVE TO do this....cut mathis, trade freeney......cut freeney, trade mathis.......and the best.....trade Peyton Manning..........it all just boggles my mind as to just how many forum members here are just out of their minds with what Irsay MUST DO or HAS TO DO.........

my 2 cents tho..........for those who want to trade mathis or freeney......or cut one and restructure the other....or compare stats of the two.....Don't you think the two of them are somewhat of a package.......mathis wouldn't have nearly the stats he does if freeney wasn't there taking the double teams all the time.....and freeney would have the stats he does if there wasnt an opposing player like mathis causing the havock he does......

and as far as trading or cutting Peyton Manning..............there's just one simple thing to say about that.......NO!

Irsay is a big boy...proven to be quite smart and savy.......just let him work his way through all this with the new gm and I'm sure he will come up with the best scenario for the colts.....not necessarily for the sometimes vocal colts fans......but for sure for the colts as a team....

there.... :neener:

[Superman]

Everything would have to be viewed in a big spreadsheet.. With the cap savings highlighted. The problem with cutting Brackett is that from a cap perspective he's going to count 7.2 if cut, vs 7.4 if he plays. TO me that's throwing 7.2 of cap room that cannot be recreated away.

The same thing with Clark @ 1.7 savings. Cutting Clark & Brackett would tie up 10%+ of the salary cap on players that aren't even on the team. When 2013, rolls around if you cut them both then, it would be 7.5 in total dead space, but still less than the 10%+ we'd be wasting if we did it this year.

What ever year you cut/trade someone is the year you absorb the majority of the cap hit unless it comes after 6/1, then i can be split between the current year and the following year 50/50. From a pure cap$ point of view I see more benefit of taking the hit in 2013 as opposed to 2012, because we would have more cap savings in 2013 than we would in 2012 for that particular year.

If we wanted to declare 2012 a throw away year and absorb as many cap hits as possible by releasing guys like Clark/Brackett to free up $ in future years and being forced to let others go due to the wasted cap space, then that is one train of thought, but you are looking at UDFA's making the league minimum of say 400-500k replacing them.

To the bolded:

Are we talking calendar year or league year? I'm under the impression we're talking league year, in which case we could cut Brackett and Clark and spread whatever the dead hit is between 2011 and 2012, to whatever extent our cap standing for 2011 would allow. If we're talking calendar year, then that's not the case, then we'd have to wait unti 6/1 (still before the season and before we'd have to reach terms with Freeney on an extension) to cut them, and spread the hit between 2012 and 2013. Which doesn't make that much sense. Would be better to keep them in 2012 and cut in 2013 if that's the case.

If we're talking league year, then we can spread the hit out over two years, restructure Freeney to have a smaller cap hit in 2012 but a significantly bigger hit in 2013, redo Manning's deal, and so on.

[FireJimCaldwell]

To the bolded:

Are we talking calendar year or league year? I'm under the impression we're talking league year, in which case we could cut Brackett and Clark and spread whatever the dead hit is between 2011 and 2012, to whatever extent our cap standing for 2011 would allow. If we're talking calendar year, then that's not the case, then we'd have to wait unti 6/1 (still before the season and before we'd have to reach terms with Freeney on an extension) to cut them, and spread the hit between 2012 and 2013. Which doesn't make that much sense. Would be better to keep them in 2012 and cut in 2013 if that's the case.

If we're talking league year, then we can spread the hit out over two years, restructure Freeney to have a smaller cap hit in 2012 but a significantly bigger hit in 2013, redo Manning's deal, and so on.

6/1 meaning June first, but also league years.

Using Brackett as an example. If he were cut June 10th, 2012, he would have a 3.6 cap hit for the 2012 salary cap and 3.6 cap hi for the 2013 salary cap. A Freeney extension is a must and it could be done so that the cap hits in '12,'13, & 14 are fairly even.

Manning's deal is sticky due to the option bonus because that is what dictates cap penalties if he is moved. Even if he reduced his base salaries for his remaining years, it would lower the cap hit, but if they tried to cut or trade him the penalties are still in place.

[everybodysgotone]

The new CBA is also a huge pain as well. Yes, we will not have to give him a huge contract like Bradford got, but if my memory is correct in year two or three of his contract we have the right to pick up a team option for a fifth year. This fifth year will pay him top tier money, but we have to make that decision really early in his career.

This is where having Manning and Luck on the same team will be a huge problem. If Manning is healthy for another 2-3 years how are you going to know what you have in Luck?

No matter what......5M/yr guaranteed for the first 4yrs for top shelf talent like Cam Newton and Von Miller is a steal compared to what was being spent for 1st rounders up until 2010. Not remotely close. It makes for a reasonable "bet" on a new guy jumping from college to pro ball, who will then earn his would-be next level paycheck at his 4yr in mark. Makes perfect sense. The 1st rd. "bust" factor will be reduced, which makes for a better league because teams will be less strapped for either a fantastic player or a bust. This is great for competition - the owners got this one right. Whether a team is able or willing to pay superstar money at the 5yr mark.....that's part of the new decision tree. I think this could also more greatly effect draft order by position to a certain degree depending on team needs/draft class. Might make for more draft day trades as well, when considering 1st vs. 2nd round selection salary payouts, etc. Like I said, the landscape has changed and I like the fresh blood at GM moving into the future. As far as Manning/Luck may be concerned, it might be possible to restructure Manning in a way that his cap hit plus a 5M salary for Luck would be close to the current expenditure for QB. I think it was around 26M to ride the bench this season. Besides, there's still a chance Manning and Luck will not be playing on the same team. I could be wrong and would be happy with team progression in either scenario even though I'd hate to see Manning go, but it may be feasible to find a trade partner) if there is some form of cap relief) or the possibility of Manning being released. This whole thing has to play out and it will be interesting to see. Good news is we are holding the cards.

[Superman]

6/1 meaning June first, but also league years.

Using Brackett as an example. If he were cut June 10th, 2012, he would have a 3.6 cap hit for the 2012 salary cap and 3.6 cap hi for the 2013 salary cap.

So help me understand this. Brackett has a $7.4 million cap hit next year, but if we cut him this league year (or before June 1?), that drops to $7.2, and it gets split between 2012 and 2013, and it's $3.6/year for the next two years. Right?

If that's the case, then the savings in 2013 is actually $3.8 million, isn't it? Or is that $3.6 an average?

A Freeney extension is a must and it could be done so that the cap hits in '12,'13, & 14 are fairly even.

Or it could be backloaded just like his current deal was. Doesn't really matter, it has to be addressed, one way or the other.

Manning's deal is sticky due to the option bonus because that is what dictates cap penalties if he is moved. Even if he reduced his base salaries for his remaining years, it would lower the cap hit, but if they tried to cut or trade him the penalties are still in place.

I'm operating under the assumption that he'll finish out his contract as a Colt.

[Superman]

The new CBA is also a huge pain as well. Yes, we will not have to give him a huge contract like Bradford got, but if my memory is correct in year two or three of his contract we have the right to pick up a team option for a fifth year. This fifth year will pay him top tier money, but we have to make that decision really early in his career.

As far as I understand it, you can make the option decision at any time prior to the deal expiring, but if you make it after the beginning of the third year, the fifth year is fully guaranteed at whatever that value is, which would be huge for a quarterback.

[FireJimCaldwell]

As far as I understand it, you can make the option decision at any time prior to the deal expiring, but if you make it after the beginning of the third year, the fifth year is fully guaranteed at whatever that value is, which would be huge for a quarterback.

The # 1 pick can be signed to an extension after year 3.

Concerning the option I would have to verify but I'm under the understanding that it can be picked up at any point during the contract and it pays like a former franchise tag of the top 10 salaries of the position. For Luck at that point it could be in the 18-20 range.

So help me understand this. Brackett has a $7.4 million cap hit next year, but if we cut him this league year (or before June 1?), that drops to $7.2, and it gets split between 2012 and 2013, and it's $3.6/year for the next two years. Right?

If that's the case, then the savings in 2013 is actually $3.8 million, isn't it? Or is that $3.6 an average?

Or it could be backloaded just like his current deal was. Doesn't really matter, it has to be addressed, one way or the other.

I'm operating under the assumption that he'll finish out his contract as a Colt.

If Bracket plays his cap hit is 7.4.

If Bracket is cut his accelerated cap hit is 7.2. If he's cut pre 6/1, it's 7.2 against the 2012 cap. If it's after 6/1, it's 3.6 vs. the 2012 cap, and 3.6 vs. the 2013 cap, So our actual savings pre 6/1 would be 200k, or 3.8 after 6/1. His 2013 cap # if he's on the roster is 9 million so the 3.6 hit in 2013 would be a 5.4 million savings in 2013 which would be based on him getting cut after 6/1.

Freeney

It could be backloaded. It could be front loaded, or spread evenly, or a gradual gain like Manning's.

Manning

If he plays out his contract the only thing he could do is lower his base salaries, but that would be like giving money away outside of an extension, or some other concession, no trade clause, etc.. It could be done though

[Coffeedrinker]

So help me understand this. Brackett has a $7.4 million cap hit next year, but if we cut him this league year (or before June 1?), that drops to $7.2, and it gets split between 2012 and 2013, and it's $3.6/year for the next two years. Right?

If that's the case, then the savings in 2013 is actually $3.8 million, isn't it? Or is that $3.6 an average?

I don't know the specifics about Brackett's contract but if he is cut prior to June 1 then any guaranteed money that was spread out over the years of the contract will count immediately towards the 2012 salary cap. If he is cut after June 1 then half of that guaranteed money is applied to the 2012 cap and half to the 2013 cap.

So let's say Brackett got $20 million guaranteed on a 4 year contract. For the cap that $20 is spread out over the 4 years so it's $5 million per year.

He played 1 year so that is 20-5=15 million. Cut beforfe June one that $15 million is applied to the 2012 cap, after June 1 then 7.5 million is applied to 2012 and 7.5 million is applied to 2013. Hope that helps. If you understood all that then I apologize for wasting your time.

[GoGoColts]

He didn't leave us, he was fired.

Maybe this will help. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/leave

[Warhorse]

Well, the goods new is we've identified some people who could assist Grigson with salary caps issues.

God, that was funny. Made me think of the movie Mr. Deeds......"I think I just chizzed myself".

EDIT : appearantly s h a t is too adult to be used next to each other.

[Warhorse]

Maybe this will help. http://www.merriam-w...ictionary/leave

Nope...didn't help a bit. Quite aware of the definition of leave, just pointing out that the premise (would you like a link to the word premise?) of the post was that he left the team in a certain state. To me...and perhaps others....that appears by the wording to have been a choice, a choice perhaps that he would have preferred to have avoided....thus the improper use of the word leave. If, in fact, the poster were to have stated, "Did Irsay leave us in Cap.....because I believe it was Jims choice for BP to leave........ perhaps Polian had a plan and he would have managed the team through this implied *&^*&, than I would have understood better. Not to say I really think BP had a plan, I just think that the original post was improperly titled. However, thank you for your assistance. If you were not being condescending, I apologize for this response.

If Polian had made a press conference, and announced he was quitting, then the title would have been perfect.

[husker61]

Which kind of has to happen, or else cut or trade him. Neither of those makes as much sense as extending him (call it four years, $50 million, $20 million guaranteed, and drop his 2012 cap to about $10 million.)

if you restructure, there is still the 5 million cap hit in 2012 from the previous contract. his base salary would have to be 2.5 million the first year to have a 10 million cap number. then base salaries like 10 million, 13 million, and 14.5 million. the cap numbers would be12.5 (7.5 cap hit if cut), 15.5 (5 cap hit if cut), and 17 million (2.5 cap hit if cut). he is giving up 14 million for 12.5 million and he has no protection after that and much less salary.

bottom line is, you have to pay the piper some time for these huge signing bonuses. the colts are in a tough spot.

there isn't much savings in cutting bracket and clark. i would give wayne about the same as he is making now (6-7 million) without a big signing bonus or let him walk. freeney is a problem, and i would offer something like the above contract and feel extremely lucky if he took it. saturday should retire saving 5 million, it's time to move on. offer garcon 2-3 million per year and not be real upset if he left. this is all dependent on manning being healthy. if he isn't, i clean house and start over with the #1 pick and a lot of cap room.

[GoGoColts]

Nope...didn't help a bit.

Stop fooling yourself.

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

I have been ...... "crying" about Freeneys for the last 3 years. He has been getting paid QB money for "how many sacks a game?"... and HOW MANY TACKLES....? ...

19M............. Really? OK, Mr. Irsay... if you pay this sum to D Free.... YOU sir are an dipstick, and this is single handedly a severe handicap on the Colts ABILITY to be flexible in FA.

Freeney has been getting QB money for the last several years. He is NOT Julius Peppers. He is NOT close.

Cut ties..... Lets start over.....

Freeney is the ONLY player on the defense that teams have to gameplan specifically for now. Mathis wouldn't be able to perform like he does without Freeney being the focus of the offense.Look at his numbers from 2007, after Freeney went out, he had only 2 sacks and 11 tackles in 8 games. Of course, there is a lot more to how good a defensive player than stats.

Freeney >> Mathis

[husker61]

Freeney is the ONLY player on the defense that teams have to gameplan specifically for now. Mathis wouldn't be able to perform like he does without Freeney being the focus of the offense.Look at his numbers from 2007, after Freeney went out, he had only 2 sacks and 11 tackles in 8 games. Of course, there is a lot more to how good a defensive player than stats.

Freeney >> Mathis

i agree on passing plays and have said the same thing for a long time. the problem is freeney has been exployted for years on running plays. ot's let him go up field and then can go block another player. he really kills the colts on running plays! that's not what i expect from the highest payed de in the nfl!

[jwilli69]

i agree on passing plays and have said the same thing for a long time. the problem is freeney has been exployted for years on running plays. ot's let him go up field and then can go block another player. he really kills the colts on running plays! that's not what i expect from the highest payed de in the nfl!

That is where really good defensive coordinators have the ability to use this issue to the teams advantage but not ours. Either Freeney freelances and doesn't share the info with his teammates, the DC doesn't gameplan well or teach well and/or the players behind Freeney can't figure out what to do where Freeney is concerned. How many times do we see Freeney get outside and then where the heck is the LB to fill that gap? How can that info not be shared and executed? That is the flaw in the Freeney game, not Freeney getting his fast butt back to the QB/RB area. Saying this, Freeney is still not worth a $19mil cap, nobody with exception of maybe 1-2 QB's in the league right now are worth that kinda cap space.

[husker61]

That is where really good defensive coordinators have the ability to use this issue to the teams advantage but not ours. Either Freeney freelances and doesn't share the info with his teammates, the DC doesn't gameplan well or teach well and/or the players behind Freeney can't figure out what to do where Freeney is concerned. How many times do we see Freeney get outside and then where the heck is the LB to fill that gap? How can that info not be shared and executed? That is the flaw in the Freeney game, not Freeney getting his fast butt back to the QB/RB area. Saying this, Freeney is still not worth a $19mil cap, nobody with exception of maybe 1-2 QB's in the league right now are worth that kinda cap space.

the problem with the colts is their lb's are small and are easily blocked by a pulling guard, te or fb. they can fill a hole and it doesn't matter. the lineman have to keep blockers away from the linebackers or make the play themselves with the penetration (freeney definitely doesn't do this).

[johnintn]

I think the Defense needs to get bigger along the front seven and get a good cover corner. Problem is cap space and I don't see that happening unless Peyton retires or is cut. I see a few years before the team has the cap space to fill the holes on both sides of the ball. That's without Peyton from this point forward.