MVP through week 13

[amfootball]

13 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Please, it's MVP that means most valuable player, there are 3 or 4 QBs who, if on the Panthers this year, would most likely still be undefeated.  In addition to that, his celebrations are the type that only the young and those with IQs below 90 enjoy.

It has to be Watt.  he has almost single handily turned the Texans season around and put them in the playoff hunt (despite that fact that according to some defensive players don't do that for teams).

No he hasn't. They have gotten solid QB play this year from Hoyer which has put them back in the hunt. They also have one of the best receivers in Hopkins. Watt is great but not even remotely an MVP candidate this year IMO.

[2006Coltsbestever]

I voted Tom but if the Panthers manage to go 16-0 I would say Cam. To me Watt had a better year last season so I put him probably 3rd or 4th. Palmer might even be 3rd?

[NFLfan]

On 12/10/2015 at 9:21 AM, Yehoodi said:

Third, not sure what you mean by "coaching staff gives him the opportunity to throw TDs even from the 2 yard line"  I take it you have a stat to show this point?   

 

I did not have time to do the research but in this game alone Brady has a 1-yd TD pass and a 2-yd TD pass so far. In the Carolina game today, when the Panthers were at the 1-yd line,  they ran the ball. If it had been the Pats, it would have been a Brady TD pass.

Newton did have 3 TD passes but none from inside the 2-yd line.

[oldunclemark]

I think its Tom Brady still...look at his numbers vs. Cam..not that close

[amfootball]

1 hour ago, oldunclemark said:

I think its Tom Brady still...look at his numbers vs. Cam..not that close

I agree but if Cam goes 16-0 I think he gets it or maybe a split with Brady. Hard to tell.

[18Manning]

I don't like him, but I think Fig Newton so far.

[Gavin]

I'm going to throw another name out there that I think is earning some consideration if his team can find a way to win out the next 3 games and that's Blake Bortles. Not a lot of people talking about him...some but he has 30 td's to only 13 picks and 1 game out in the playoffs despite being 5-8. Now the Jags will have to win out but he is having a great year

Ultimately I'd have to give it to Brady

[Coffeedrinker]

On 12/11/2015 at 9:41 AM, amfootball said:

No he hasn't. They have gotten solid QB play this year from Hoyer which has put them back in the hunt. They also have one of the best receivers in Hopkins. Watt is great but not even remotely an MVP candidate this year IMO.

For any team you can point to other players that have contributed to them playing well.  It's a team sport.

The difference is, with Hoyer playing well and Hopkins as one of the top WRs, without Watt the Texans are still a 4-9 team, if that.

 

Put a QB like Rogers, Manning, Luck, Brady heck even a QB like Smith on the Panthers and they are still undefeated.

[2006Coltsbestever]

8 hours ago, Gavin said:

I'm going to throw another name out there that I think is earning some consideration if his team can find a way to win out the next 3 games and that's Blake Bortles. Not a lot of people talking about him...some but he has 30 td's to only 13 picks and 1 game out in the playoffs despite being 5-8. Now the Jags will have to win out but he is having a great year

Ultimately I'd have to give it to Brady

After yesterday I give it to Bortles (sarcasm), never seen anyone thread the needle like him. His sweet ability to throw it into triple coverage and still have guys catch it then run for 50 Yards is uncanny  

[amfootball]

1 minute ago, Coffeedrinker said:

For any team you can point to other players that have contributed to them playing well.  It's a team sport.

The difference is, with Hoyer playing well and Hopkins as one of the top WRs, without Watt the Texans are still a 4-9 team, if that.

 

Put a QB like Rogers, Manning, Luck, Brady heck even a QB like Smith on the Panthers and they are still undefeated.

I love Watt but he has not nearly been the influence this year that he was last year for the Texans. The tide turned when Mallett was benched and Hoyer began playing well. We have had this discussion before but the QB effects wins and losses more than any other player. It truly does take a special year by a non-QB player to take the MVP like AP did a couple of years ago. Watt IMO was that guy last year with the historic season he put up and yet the Texans still did not make the playoffs because of terrible QB play.

[NFLfan]

33 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Put a QB like Rogers, Manning, Luck, Brady heck even a QB like Smith on the Panthers and they are still undefeated.

 

Denver has a great defense and are loaded with offensive playmakers.  Yet they are not undefeated.

 

Quote:

While their defense has long been their foundation as an organization, it’s their offense that’s leading the way now, as a unit with a number of issues leads the league in scoring at 31.6 points per game.

This team does it the opposite way, with 445 rush attempts and 400 passes, a decidedly old school approach for a team with a new generation quarterback.

And this is with a team whose best receiver remains Ted Ginn, a 50-50 chance to catch any particular thing thrown his way. Yesterday he did, grabbing a pair of deep balls from quarterback Cam Newton, but the former Dolphins draft flop understands the specific reason why.

“I give all my success to Cam Newton,” Ginn said. “Without him, there is no Ted Ginn. I can’t say that vice versa, but we really, really have a nice thing going right now.”

That’s mathematically accurate, as Ginn has 13 touchdown receptions in 29 games with the Panthers, and six in his 104 games anywhere else.

Once Kelvin Benjaminwent down with a season-ending ACL tear in training camp, the Panthers knew they lacked top-end talent or depth at the position. And yet, Newton keeps making it work with Ginn and rookie Devin Funchess and old Jerricho Cotchery, a group of receivers I’m not sure even the Patriots would envy. But they know their personnel and their personality, they run well, and have a dependable tight end in Greg Olsen, and have made that scarcity of receivers moot.

And mostly, it’s because of Newton, which is why he tops most lists of MVP favorites at the moment.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/12/14/panthers-leading-the-league-in-scoring-of-course/

[Gramz]

Has to be Cam at this point.

[amfootball]

11 hours ago, NFLfan said:

 

I did not have time to do the research but in this game alone Brady has a 1-yd TD pass and a 2-yd TD pass so far. In the Carolina game today, when the Panthers were at the 1-yd line,  they ran the ball. If it had been the Pats, it would have been a Brady TD pass.

Newton did have 3 TD passes but none from inside the 2-yd line.

Wow. If there ever was NOT a game to make the case for Brady passing more than running it was last night. Brady put the ball in the air 30 times. The Pats rushed it 31 times. And they did this after their top running back Blount went out. The Pats offense is designed every week to take advantage of the opponents weaknesses. Brady is asked to do more than Cam because he does not have the Oline or run game like Cam but does have the benefit of having the best red zone target in the game in Gronk. Again, as has already been stated, Cam's stats are not close to Brady in every measurable passing category so not sure why you are so fixated on just passing TDs. Brady is better everywhere. Cam is having a great year but Brady's has been better. That being said, if Cam goes undefeated than his case his very strong to get MVP or split with Brady.

[dgambill]

I'd like to throw another name in the list...Russell Wilson. He has a higher passer rating than Tom and the same number of TDs with less interceptions than Cam. I think he is deserving of being on the list. With no Marshawn and no Jimmy Graham he is carrying his team into the playoffs....last 4 or 5 games have been unbelievable. That said I think Cam is in the lead. He has no Gronk on his team to dictate defenses...no Edelman that shreds defenses and allows him to quickly hit on a short slant and turn it into a 30 yd play. He had no Deion Lewis out of the backfield. MVP is more than just numbers...sure you have to have stats but you also need leadership and how much his play accounts for the teams success. We can't ignore the fact that without Gronk and Edelman Tom lost back to back games. Tom is very very important but his success is still closely tied to having those playmakers. Everything I've heard so far is that Cam has that team playing loose and flying high. He makes the big plays when they need him and his almost unstoppable inside the 10.

I mean if it was just about numbers than Tom and Carson would be the only two in the discussion as theirs are astronomical. We have to consider everything. I do think if Cam goes undefeated he wins it...however if not then I think him and Carson and Russell split a bunch of votes giving it to Tom. We still have 3 games left but this season is so close it could be any of those 4 in my mind. My vote would go to Cam...and the offensive player of the year go to Tom. I'm not going to lie...if Tom's guys would have stayed healthy all year (OL too) he would have broke both Peytons single season records this year in my opinion.

[chad72]

If they had given the reins to Russell even when Graham was there and Lynch was there, he could have shown much more earlier too, IMO. 

 

It is like when people knocked Brady as a game manager earlier on when he won his early SBs. As soon as he got the weapons and it was a QB centric team, he showed everyone he could put the numbers just as well as Peyton and do it at a very high level for long. Russell Wilson will be given the same chance to put the team on his shoulders and only time will tell if he can do it for a long time. Once teams start treating the Seahawks as a passing team and not a running team, opposing D game plans will be different and that will tell us if RW can deliver against such game planning. 

 

Timing can be everything. Joe Flacco got hot for one game before the playoffs and the Ravens rested their starters because they felt they had a better shot as a #4 seed going into Denver than as a #3 seed going into Foxboro in the last game. Flacco then continued his hot streak throughout the playoffs. The Seahawks getting hot reminds me of the 2005 Steelers and 2012 Ravens. Both had Ds that could travel well on the road and their team is getting hot at the right time.

[21isSuperman]

Cam Newton has won every game this year, and he's thrown 28 TDs compared to 10 INTs with a receiving corps that starts Ted Ginn Jr.

[dgambill]

2 minutes ago, chad72 said:

If they had given the reins to Russell even when Graham was there and Lynch was there, he could have shown much more earlier too, IMO. 

 

It is like when people knocked Brady as a game manager earlier on when he won his early SBs. As soon as he got the weapons and it was a QB centric team, he showed everyone he could put the numbers just as well as Peyton and do it at a very high level for long. Russell Wilson will be given the same chance to put the team on his shoulders and only time will tell if he can do it for a long time. Once teams start treating the Seahawks as a passing team and not a running team, opposing D game plans will be different and that will tell us if RW can deliver against such game planning. 

 

Timing can be everything. Joe Flacco got hot for one game before the playoffs and the Ravens rested their starters because they felt they had a better shot as a #4 seed going into Denver than as a #3 seed going into Foxboro in the last game. Flacco then continued his hot streak throughout the playoffs. The Seahawks getting hot reminds me of the 2005 Steelers and 2012 Ravens. Both had Ds that could travel well on the road and their team is getting hot at the right time.

That's funny because the last couple years I said Russell could be Drew Brees in a few years...and now he is doing it. And I also agree his career is very close to resembling Toms. Sure he lost the SB last year but man he has a chance to be a great one. Those deep balls he throws....so pretty and so accurate. If his OL can give him throwing lanes and a decent amount of time he is tough to stop....early in the year they were a mess...I think they even converted a DT to the OL. The Graham trade has been a disaster...not only has he not fit their offense...they lost a starting center and #1 pick....and all that money spent could have been used to get Cam into the fold sooner or lock up some other guys. Now they are playing great football and look like they could go back for SB #3.

[chad72]

4 minutes ago, 21isSuperman said:

Cam Newton has won every game this year, and he's thrown 28 TDs compared to 10 INTs with a receiving corps that starts Ted Ginn Jr.

 

This also shows you that having great wide outs is not a necessity for winning. If you invest in a QB and OL, even the lesser known wide outs will produce. We saw it with Brady and his earlier SBs, and now we are seeing it with Cam. However, playoff offensive production will come at a premium and only time will tell if Cam and his D can survive a slugfest vs the Seahawks and/or Cardinals.

[21isSuperman]

4 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

This also shows you that having great wide outs is not a necessity for winning. If you invest in a QB and OL, even the lesser known wide outs will produce. We saw it with Brady and his earlier SBs, and now we are seeing it with Cam. However, playoff offensive production will come at a premium and only time will tell if Cam and his D can survive a slugfest vs the Seahawks and/or Cardinals.

I agree.  The Seahawks and Patriots went into last year's Super Bowl with receivers like Doug Baldwin and Brandon LaFell.  With that said, you could make the case that having a better WR would have helped the Seahawks win on that throw from the 2.

 

I agree with you, though, that the bigger investment should be put towards a QB and OL.  That's not to say we can neglect the WR spot, but it isn't a requirement to heavily invest in it with high draft picks and premier free agents, in my opinion.

[chad72]

8 minutes ago, 21isSuperman said:

I agree.  The Seahawks and Patriots went into last year's Super Bowl with receivers like Doug Baldwin and Brandon LaFell.  With that said, you could make the case that having a better WR would have helped the Seahawks win on that throw from the 2.

 

I agree with you, though, that the bigger investment should be put towards a QB and OL.  That's not to say we can neglect the WR spot, but it isn't a requirement to heavily invest in it with high draft picks and premier free agents, in my opinion.

 

It was the play calling and the area in which the throw was made, in the midst of traffic.

 

A WR fade or a Lynch run both had better chances to succeed, IMO and they chose the worst of 3 options on that play call. Josh McDaniels or Sean Payton or Mike McCarthy or Bruce Arians - none of those play callers would have called that particular play in that congested area, IMO.

 

Even the high draft pick wide out plays in SB history came with separation, whether it was Santonio Holmes by the far sideline from Big Ben or Plaxico Burress catch against Ellis Hobb were thrown to areas only where the wide out had a chance to make a play. Larry Fitzgerald, another round 1 wide out would have had the winning score when he got the YAC TD play in space if not for Big Ben and Santonio Holmes ruining it the next drive.

[21isSuperman]

1 minute ago, chad72 said:

 

It was the play calling and the area in which the throw was made, in the midst of traffic.

 

A WR fade or a Lynch run both had better chances to succeed, IMO and they chose the worst of 3 options on that play call.

Agreed.  Bad play call.  But if you are going to run a slant inside with a lot of traffic, I'd feel more comfortable doing that with someone like Dez or Calvin.  Run that same play with Dez Bryant and you very well could be back-to-back Super Bowl champions.  But yeah, fade to the corner of the endzone is the way to go if you're hellbent on throwing it in that situation.

[NFLfan]

2 hours ago, amfootball said:

Wow. If there ever was NOT a game to make the case for Brady passing more than running it was last night. Brady put the ball in the air 30 times. The Pats rushed it 31 times. And they did this after their top running back Blount went out. The Pats offense is designed every week to take advantage of the opponents weaknesses. Brady is asked to do more than Cam because he does not have the Oline or run game like Cam but does have the benefit of having the best red zone target in the game in Gronk. Again, as has already been stated, Cam's stats are not close to Brady in every measurable passing category so not sure why you are so fixated on just passing TDs. Brady is better everywhere. Cam is having a great year but Brady's has been better. That being said, if Cam goes undefeated than his case his very strong to get MVP or split with Brady.

 

You clearly did not follow the thread.  I think you have further proved my point in that on a night when they are running the ball more frequently than usual, the Pats still passed on their first 2 scoring opportunities with the ball inside the 2-yard. 

[Coffeedrinker]

3 hours ago, NFLfan said:

 

Denver has a great defense and are loaded with offensive playmakers.  Yet they are not undefeated.

 

Quote:

While their defense has long been their foundation as an organization, it’s their offense that’s leading the way now, as a unit with a number of issues leads the league in scoring at 31.6 points per game.

This team does it the opposite way, with 445 rush attempts and 400 passes, a decidedly old school approach for a team with a new generation quarterback.

And this is with a team whose best receiver remains Ted Ginn, a 50-50 chance to catch any particular thing thrown his way. Yesterday he did, grabbing a pair of deep balls from quarterback Cam Newton, but the former Dolphins draft flop understands the specific reason why.

“I give all my success to Cam Newton,” Ginn said. “Without him, there is no Ted Ginn. I can’t say that vice versa, but we really, really have a nice thing going right now.”

That’s mathematically accurate, as Ginn has 13 touchdown receptions in 29 games with the Panthers, and six in his 104 games anywhere else.

Once Kelvin Benjaminwent down with a season-ending ACL tear in training camp, the Panthers knew they lacked top-end talent or depth at the position. And yet, Newton keeps making it work with Ginn and rookie Devin Funchess and old Jerricho Cotchery, a group of receivers I’m not sure even the Patriots would envy. But they know their personnel and their personality, they run well, and have a dependable tight end in Greg Olsen, and have made that scarcity of receivers moot.

And mostly, it’s because of Newton, which is why he tops most lists of MVP favorites at the moment.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/12/14/panthers-leading-the-league-in-scoring-of-course/

You're quoted article really has not bearing on my thoughts but thanks.  obviously CAM is playing well that is why I put other elite QBs in the list rather than saying guys like Cutler, Bortles, Dalton, etc.

 

Just because he's playing well does not make him the MVP.  perhaps the MVP of the Panthers but not of the league because there are other players in the league that, if put on the panthers in his place would do as well.

[Coffeedrinker]

3 hours ago, amfootball said:

I love Watt but he has not nearly been the influence this year that he was last year for the Texans. The tide turned when Mallett was benched and Hoyer began playing well. We have had this discussion before but the QB effects wins and losses more than any other player. It truly does take a special year by a non-QB player to take the MVP like AP did a couple of years ago. Watt IMO was that guy last year with the historic season he put up and yet the Texans still did not make the playoffs because of terrible QB play.

Ok, so you basically said the exact same thing as in the thread I quoted.  Should I repeat myself as well?

[NFLfan]

9 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

You're quoted article really has not bearing on my thoughts but thanks.  obviously CAM is playing well that is why I put other elite QBs in the list rather than saying guys like Cutler, Bortles, Dalton, etc.

 

Just because he's playing well does not make him the MVP.  perhaps the MVP of the Panthers but not of the league because there are other players in the league that, if put on the panthers in his place would do as well.

 

Who said the quoted article was for you? You realize that you are not the only person who follows the forum?

Sorry..

[amfootball]

58 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

 

You clearly did not follow the thread.  I think you have further proved my point in that on a night when they are running the ball more frequently than usual, the Pats still passed on their first 2 scoring opportunities with the ball inside the 2-yard. 

I am not sure what your point is with throwing a TD from the red zone. It is actually harder to throw TDs from inside the 10 given the coverage is tight and less field to work with. The Pats had a rushing TD last night in addition to the two passing TDs. Again, they don't have the run game or Oline that the Panthers do and also have Gronk who is the best red zone threat in the game. One of Brady's TDs was a lob pass to him last night. As I already stated, Brady is  significantly better than Newton in all major passing stats. If the Panthers had even one loss right now, he would not even be in the discussion for MVP. It would be Brady and Palmer.

[Coffeedrinker]

5 hours ago, amfootball said:

1 hour ago, NFLfan said:

 

Who said the quoted article was for you? You realize that you are not the only person who follows the forum?

Sorry..

Because you quoted me when you posted it. That is what the quote feature is for...to respond to a specific poster about a specific topic.

[jvan1973]

17 hours ago, oldunclemark said:

I think its Tom Brady still...look at his numbers vs. Cam..not that close

Newton 35 tds.  Brady 36 tds

 

Pretty close

[amfootball]

23 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

Newton 35 tds.  Brady 36 tds

 

Pretty close

Newton: 3,062 yards, 59 % completion; 394 pass attempts; 96.9 passer rating

Brady: 4,138 yards, 64 % completion; 537 pass attempts;  103.6 passer rating

 

Not that close.

[jvan1973]

Just now, amfootball said:

Newton: 3,062 yards, 59 % completion; 394 pass attempts; 96.9 passer rating

Brady: 4,138 yards, 64 % completion; 537 pass attempts;  103.6 passer rating

 

Not that close.

The only numbers that matter are tds and wins.  QB rating isn't a factor in the MVP. Steve young would have had a bunch if that were the case.  It's Cam's to lose at this point

[amfootball]

2 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

The only numbers that matter are tds and wins.  QB rating isn't a factor in the MVP. Steve young would have had a bunch if that were the case.  It's Cam's to lose at this point

lol. TDs are not all that matters. All of the passing categories come into play that measure performance. The only area where Cam is better is rushing. I agree about the wins though. They are a big factor which is why Cam has to go undefeated IMO to get it as his numbers will not be good enough compared to Brady.

[jvan1973]

3 minutes ago, amfootball said:

lol. TDs are not all that matters. All of the passing categories come into play that measure performance. The only area where Cam is better is rushing. I agree about the wins though. They are a big factor which is why Cam has to go undefeated IMO to get it as his numbers will not be good enough compared to Brady.

They can lose a game and he will still get it

[amfootball]

Just now, jvan1973 said:

They can lose a game and he will still get it

He will lose it if he loses a game or split with Brady.

[NFLfan]

5 hours ago, amfootball said:

I am not sure what your point is with throwing a TD from the red zone. It is actually harder to throw TDs from inside the 10 given the coverage is tight and less field to work with. The Pats had a rushing TD last night in addition to the two passing TDs. Again, they don't have the run game or Oline that the Panthers do and also have Gronk who is the best red zone threat in the game. One of Brady's TDs was a lob pass to him last night. As I already stated, Brady is  significantly better than Newton in all major passing stats. If the Panthers had even one loss right now, he would not even be in the discussion for MVP. It would be Brady and Palmer.

I won't bother clarifying my point any further. If you want to know the answer to the bolded, just go back and read what I wrote in the previous posts. 

[NFLfan]

2 hours ago, amfootball said:

Newton: 3,062 yards, 59 % completion; 394 pass attempts; 96.9 passer rating

Brady: 4,138 yards, 64 % completion; 537 pass attempts;  103.6 passer rating

 

Not that close.

Too bad Newton did not stay past the 3rd quarter yesterday to pad his stats. 

[amfootball]

1 hour ago, NFLfan said:

Too bad Newton did not stay past the 3rd quarter yesterday to pad his stats. 

lol. I love the hate in this place!!

[HiltonTD]

9 hours ago, 21isSuperman said:

Cam Newton has won every game this year, and he's thrown 28 TDs compared to 10 INTs with a receiving corps that starts Ted Ginn Jr.

 

I think you have to throw in that stifling defense when talking about the Panthers being undefeated as well, but Cam is having a really good year

[dw49]

On December 11, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Coffeedrinker said:

Please, it's MVP that means most valuable player, there are 3 or 4 QBs who, if on the Panthers this year, would most likely still be undefeated.  In addition to that, his celebrations are the type that only the young and those with IQs below 90 enjoy.

It has to be Watt.  he has almost single handily turned the Texans season around and put them in the playoff hunt (despite that fact that according to some defensive players don't do that for teams).

 

 

It has to be Watt because he's led the Texans to a 6-7 record ? 

 

[Coffeedrinker]

11 hours ago, dw49 said:

 

 

It has to be Watt because he's led the Texans to a 6-7 record ? 

 

No, because they would be hard pressed to have those 6 wins without him.

[dw49]

56 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

No, because they would be hard pressed to have those 6 wins without him.

 

 

Great player no doubt. But IMO being the major factor in leading his team to a 6-7 record is not even close to how they hand out MVP awards. Defensive player of the year would be more realistic. I think you have a point if you want to say he is having a better year then Cam Newton , but it's just not how they give that award out.