TY vs. Fleener/Allen

[throwing BBZ]

I appreciate that most people here don't read all posts,  or even most threads.

 

But the issue of who we can keep has been beaten to death countless times.

 

Recently,  Superman broke down all of our potential free agents,  Luck, Hilton, Castonzo,  Allen,  Fleener,  and showed how we can comfortably keep them all.     Really,  all of them.

 

But,  people apparently aren't reading this type of material and so the next time someone brings up,  a whole flock of posters surfaces again speculating who we keep and who we cut.

 

I'm not predicting we'll keep them all.    Maybe we won't.

 

But we've got the cap room too.    If we like them,  and we want them back,  and their agents are reasonable,  we can comfortably keep ALL of our guys..........

 

Really.   Truly.    Not kidding.

 

I'll see if Superman would be willing to post his big spread sheet again.    It really was impressive.

 

 It just isn`t true. That is the problem. It would kill the rest of the roster.

 And good gawd, we have Luck. Why would he need all those high priced players to score points?

 He WOULDN`T!! It really is that Simple!!!

[NewColtsFan]

 It just isn`t true. That is the problem. It would kill the rest of the roster.

 And good gawd, we have Luck. Why would he need all those high priced players to score points?

 He WOULDN`T!! It really is that Simple!!!

 

I don't want to break this down line by line,  word by word,  so I'll simply say this.....

 

I strongly disagree with every word you wrote in this post.    Every last word.

 

We are on the opposite side of the planet from each other.

[Manning1887]

I would explore trade options for TY. I am not sure a WR is worth $12 million per season. If you look at the past couple of drafts, the WR position has been really strong. I think we could replace TY easier than people think. Phillip Dorsett and Donte Moncrief will play a big role in that replacement. 

 

Keeping Fleener and Allen makes more sense economically. They add a great deal of versatility to the offense. 

[JH8788]

I literally just said TY is my favorite Colt player. Im not disrespecting him at all. I was merely saying that Fleener and Allen together are more valuable than just TY, especially with the depth at WR we have. The premise of this thread is that it is an either/or question, not keep all 3, and in that (hopefully) imaginary situation, as much as it would suck Id keep the two TEs over TY.

 

In an ideal world TY signs for about 11m - 12m per year and we keep all 3...

I know you said he's your favorite player, but you also said since we're deep at WR, that makes him expendable which is why I said that was disrespectful. Bottom line is that we have to find a way to keep all 3. They're all way too important to our success beyond this year.

[JH8788]

Allen is by far the superior TE and its not even close. He would be a top 5 receiving TE if he wasn't such a great blocker, which is what they have him doing most of the time.

Dwayne is the better all around TE, but to say he's far superior is a bit of a stretch. Keep in mind Coby has been our best/healthiest pass catcher not named T.Y. over the past 2 seasons & he's only getting better.

[Superman]

I look forward to reading what you have to say and your posts are really valuable. After reading that, I just mumble to myself, damn doesn't he have a job or something?   No disrespect towards you though, Superman. Just thinking out loud. Good stuff!

 

I have a job that allows me to spend time on diversions sometimes... Don't tell anyone.

[aaron11]

I would explore trade options for TY.

i think this could be interesting, but i doubt it will happen.  any team that trades for him will either not  give up much, or would want to get him extended asap. 

 

i doubt we would get equal talent in return, unless it was an aging veteran. 

 

our best bet would be finding a team that thinks ty is the missing piece for a title run next season.  the obvious contenders tend to be pretty stacked at WR with the exception of seattle. 

[GoColts8818]

I would explore trade options for TY. I am not sure a WR is worth $12 million per season. If you look at the past couple of drafts, the WR position has been really strong. I think we could replace TY easier than people think. Phillip Dorsett and Donte Moncrief will play a big role in that replacement. 

 

Keeping Fleener and Allen makes more sense economically. They add a great deal of versatility to the offense. 

They aren't going to trade him.  They might lose him in free agency but they aren't going to trade him.  It's pretty clear that the Colts think they can and should win the Super Bowl this year.  They view TY as being an important part of that happening.  They are going to try to use him to do that.  If they can get a deal done great.  If they can't and they lose him in free agency but he helps them win a ring Irsay and others will feel it was well worth it.  If they don't win the Super Bowl and he becomes a free agent and they lose him they will chalk it up to is that at some point you have to take a shot. 

 

I think that's something Irsay regrets from the Manning years, they didn't go all in and try to take a real shot more often. 

[CanuckColt]

Hilton at 12M max or goodbye Mr. Hilton, goodbye Mr. Rosenhaus.

We keep both TEs.

[jchandler7]

As much as i love TY and agree with most that he is a great wr i would rather use that money on our TE duo and work on building our defense. I belive we have a quality young group in Dorsett, Moncreif and Carter, i don't think it would hurt us as bad to lose TY as most on here do.

[Chucklez]

I know you said he's your favorite player, but you also said since we're deep at WR, that makes him expendable which is why I said that was disrespectful. Bottom line is that we have to find a way to keep all 3. They're all way too important to our success beyond this year.

..... if you had the 7 best WRs in the league all on one roster, and they are all equally as good as eachother, but only have space for 6 on your active roster, you have to say that the 7th WR, even though he is as good as the other 6, is expendable...... 

The same concept applies just to a lesser degree here.... It's not disrespectful at all. He is probably our best playmaker, but given the depth at our WR position and how important both of those TE's are to us, TY would be the one to go. When I say he is expendable I dont mean because he isnt that good or because he isnt valuable to us, i mean because we have other options that we can use if we have to...... If TY went down with an injury for 10 games of the season, it's not a season killer.... if Luck went down for 10 games it would certainly be a season killer........ That's what I mean by expendable....

[Chucklez]

They are apparently negotiating with him now.... just because TY is aiming for $14m per year, doesnt mean he is going to get it btw. That is what I would assume he is going to the table with as his opening gambit.... When you are negotiating you never get what you initially ask for. I bet they come to a deal where TY signs for an average of about $11.5m a year... It'll be about the guaranteed money for TY, which I wouldnt be afraid to give him.

[Gavin]

..... if you had the 7 best WRs in the league all on one roster, and they are all equally as good as eachother, but only have space for 6 on your active roster, you have to say that the 7th WR, even though he is as good as the other 6, is expendable...... 

The same concept applies just to a lesser degree here.... It's not disrespectful at all. He is probably our best playmaker, but given the depth at our WR position and how important both of those TE's are to us, TY would be the one to go. When I say he is expendable I dont mean because he isnt that good or because he isnt valuable to us, i mean because we have other options that we can use if we have to...... If TY went down with an injury for 10 games of the season, it's not a season killer.... if Luck went down for 10 games it would certainly be a season killer........ That's what I mean by expendable....

"but given the depth at our WR position"

 

What depth?

 

- A 34 year old Andre Johnson?

-A 2nd year WR? Moncrief

-A journeyman WR in Vincent Brown?

-Griff Whalen? A guy who has been released multiple times

-Quan Bray, Duron Carter, Phillip Dorsett, Ryan Lankford, Ezell Ruffin, Tyler Rutenbeck? Who have a combined 0 games played in the NFL

[JH8788]

..... if you had the 7 best WRs in the league all on one roster, and they are all equally as good as eachother, but only have space for 6 on your active roster, you have to say that the 7th WR, even though he is as good as the other 6, is expendable...... 

The same concept applies just to a lesser degree here.... It's not disrespectful at all. He is probably our best playmaker, but given the depth at our WR position and how important both of those TE's are to us, TY would be the one to go. When I say he is expendable I dont mean because he isnt that good or because he isnt valuable to us, i mean because we have other options that we can use if we have to...... If TY went down with an injury for 10 games of the season, it's not a season killer.... if Luck went down for 10 games it would certainly be a season killer........ That's what I mean by expendable....

Carter & Dorsett, while they have great upside & I believe they'll be damn good players for us, are unproven. Moncrief also has great upside, but if he was ready to take over the #2 spot right now, we wouldn't have brought in Dre to do that instead. He's still at least a year away from being the starter so just in terms of the WR core, only T.Y. & Dre are far & away the most proven under the line of fire. Yeah while it wouldn't necessarily be a season killer if T.Y. were to go down,*Knocks on wood* our offense just wouldn't look the same since he strikes fear into opposing defenses as we already know.

 

I know good & well how important our TEs are to us. They're just as important as T.Y. is which is why it's a must that we lock up all 3. The wild card in all this is the development of Erik Swoope. If he continues to make strides & the coaches feel like he's ready to make an impact, then either Coby or Dwayne won't be with us next year unless we do keep them both & replace Doyle with Swoope as our 3rd TE.

[Chucklez]

"but given the depth at our WR position"

 

What depth?

 

- A 34 year old Andre Johnson?

-A 2nd year WR? Moncrief

-A journeyman WR in Vincent Brown?

-Griff Whalen? A guy who has been released multiple times

-Quan Bray, Duron Carter, Phillip Dorsett, Ryan Lankford, Ezell Ruffin, Tyler Rutenbeck? Who have a combined 0 games played in the NFL

 

 

Carter & Dorsett, while they have great upside & I believe they'll be damn good players for us, are unproven. Moncrief also has great upside, but if he was ready to take over the #2 spot right now, we wouldn't have brought in Dre to do that instead. He's still at least a year away from being the starter so just in terms of the WR core, only T.Y. & Dre are far & away the most proven under the line of fire. Yeah while it wouldn't necessarily be a season killer if T.Y. were to go down,*Knocks on wood* our offense just wouldn't look the same since he strikes fear into opposing defenses as we already know.

 

I know good & well how important our TEs are to us. They're just as important as T.Y. is which is why it's a must that we lock up all 3. The wild card in all this is the development of Erik Swoope. If he continues to make strides & the coaches feel like he's ready to make an impact, then either Coby or Dwayne won't be with us next year unless we do keep them both & replace Doyle with Swoope as our 3rd TE.

 

In response to both of your posts:

First of all, neither of you mentioned Dwayne Allen or Coby Fleener in your analysis of our depth at the pass catching positions... If TY went down, this is the order I would rank our pass catchers in after him:

 

AJ 

Fleener & Allen

Moncrief (he's raw, but makes plays, you cant deny that he's already proven that)

Boom (was very very effective in the passing game in dump off situations)

In my eyes that is another 5 good targets for Luck to hit if you take TY outa the situation. And that isnt even taking into account the potential of Dorsett or Carter (Carter I think would take a lot longer to come through)....

Name me another team though where if their main WR went down they would have that many targets? I wouldnt trade our WR core, not the pass catchers, our WR core... for any other unit in the NFL. No way, the talent is there to make big time plays RIGHT NOW and the talent is there to replace them when they retire or possibly leave via FA...

 

Yea AJ is old, but in a year or two Moncrief will be that much more developed, same goes for the potential of Dorsett and Carter. 

[Gavin]

In response to both of your posts:

First of all, neither of you mentioned Dwayne Allen or Coby Fleener in your analysis of our depth at the pass catching positions... If TY went down, this is the order I would rank our pass catchers in after him:

 

AJ 

Fleener & Allen

Moncrief (he's raw, but makes plays, you cant deny that he's already proven that)

Boom (was very very effective in the passing game in dump off situations)

In my eyes that is another 5 good targets for Luck to hit if you take TY outa the situation. And that isnt even taking into account the potential of Dorsett or Carter (Carter I think would take a lot longer to come through)....

Name me another team though where if their main WR went down they would have that many targets? I wouldnt trade our WR core, not the pass catchers, our WR core... for any other unit in the NFL. No way, the talent is there to make big time plays RIGHT NOW and the talent is there to replace them when they retire or possibly leave via FA...

 

Yea AJ is old, but in a year or two Moncrief will be that much more developed, same goes for the potential of Dorsett and Carter. 

AJ is a stop gap.....Clearly a good stop gap...but a stop gap, He don't factor into long term. Moncrief is not ready yet....If he was I don't think Johnson would even be here. Allen and Fleener combined had only 12 more targets then Hilton last year...That means Hilton is a huge factor in our offense...Much more then Fleener or Allen has been, They are also important of course but not close to as important as Hilton. Dan Herron will be 27 a month after this season ends and a RFA, If he was in our long term plans and could handle the load Grigson would not have brought Gore in.

 

Anyway we will have enough to sign Hilton and Allen and Fleener and Castonzo, The rest of our FA's will get minimal contracts or let go probably http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/2016/indianapolis-colts/   

 

Nobody on that list is a must re-sign after Castonzo. We can afford Hilton, Allen and Fleener

[Chucklez]

AJ is a stop gap.....Clearly a good stop gap...but a stop gap, He don't factor into long term. Moncrief is not ready yet....If he was I don't think Johnson would even be here. Allen and Fleener combined had only 12 more targets then Hilton last year...That means Hilton is a huge factor in our offense...Much more then Fleener or Allen has been, They are also important of course but not close to as important as Hilton. Dan Herron will be 27 a month after this season ends and a RFA, If he was in our long term plans and could handle the load Grigson would not have brought Gore in.

 

Anyway we will have enough to sign Hilton and Allen and Fleener and Castonzo, The rest of our FA's will get minimal contracts or let go probably http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/2016/indianapolis-colts/   

 

Nobody on that list is a must re-sign after Castonzo. We can afford Hilton, Allen and Fleener

This makes literally no sense as an argument right now....

 

I agree AJ is a stop gap. Hence why in two years time Moncrief will have definitely developed enough to take ownership of that role. 

 

Remember, we are talking about AFTER this year... TY is still under contract for this year. By the time next year rolls around AJ should still have another decent year left in him, Moncrief will have developed more, Dorsett, based on potential should be AT LEAST where moncrief is right now, if not further along. Carter is just a plus at this point... Then you have another year of FA to address any immediate needs etc....

[Everyone]

Dwayne is the better all around TE, but to say he's far superior is a bit of a stretch. Keep in mind Coby has been our best/healthiest pass catcher not named T.Y. over the past 2 seasons & he's only getting better.

Like I said, if Allen wasn't such a great blocker he'd be the best and most reliable receiving TE.

[Steamboat_Shaun]

Actually his replacement may even be on the roster right now....Swoope

 

Yeah, I was gonna say the same thing, I'm really excited to see how Swoope looks come preseason. I don't expect him to get a lot, if any, meaningful snaps once regular season starts, but I'm eager to see the progress that he's made in the offseason.

[JH8788]

Like I said, if Allen wasn't such a great blocker he'd be the best and most reliable receiving TE.

Hard to call him more reliable when he's caught the injury bug the last 2 years. Where as Coby hasn't missed a game since their rookie seasons. Dwayne is on a different level than Coby is as a blocker, but Coby is on a different level than Dwayne as a pass catcher. It's not an accident that through the 1st 3 seasons he's been the most productive TE in Colts history.

[ColtsLegacy]

Hard to call him more reliable when he's caught the injury bug the last 2 years. Where as Coby hasn't missed a game since their rookie seasons. Dwayne is on a different level than Coby is as a blocker, but Coby is on a different level than Dwayne as a pass catcher. It's not an accident that through the 1st 3 seasons he's been the most productive TE in Colts history.

This is absolutely false.

And, yes, it is an accident. Dwayne Allen's injury being the accident.

[JH8788]

In response to both of your posts:

First of all, neither of you mentioned Dwayne Allen or Coby Fleener in your analysis of our depth at the pass catching positions... If TY went down, this is the order I would rank our pass catchers in after him:

 

AJ 

Fleener & Allen

Moncrief (he's raw, but makes plays, you cant deny that he's already proven that)

Boom (was very very effective in the passing game in dump off situations)

In my eyes that is another 5 good targets for Luck to hit if you take TY outa the situation. And that isnt even taking into account the potential of Dorsett or Carter (Carter I think would take a lot longer to come through)....

Name me another team though where if their main WR went down they would have that many targets? I wouldnt trade our WR core, not the pass catchers, our WR core... for any other unit in the NFL. No way, the talent is there to make big time plays RIGHT NOW and the talent is there to replace them when they retire or possibly leave via FA...

 

Yea AJ is old, but in a year or two Moncrief will be that much more developed, same goes for the potential of Dorsett and Carter. 

You just basically reiterated what I just said about Moncrief, Dorsett, & Carter. Nobody's disputing the array of talent we have for pass catchers, the issue started when you said T.Y. was expendable because we have other options to go to & like you said, he's our best playmaker so let me ask you this question. Do you think we could win it all this year w/o him? Cause I sure as hell don't.

[JH8788]

This is absolutely false.

And, yes, it is an accident. Dwayne Allen's injury being the accident.

Missing all but 1 game in your 2nd year due to a hip injury then missing 3 games & leaving 3 games due to injury this past season then admitting in the offseason he was 70% throughout the season ain't an accident my friend. Up to this point Coby has proven he's more durable than Dwayne & while I do believe he will be healthy & have a really good year, he still has to prove it.

 

But like I said, Coby is the better receiver than Dwayne. He can stretch the field much better than Dwayne can & the week 11 game vs NE gave us a glimpse of what he can turn into if/when he puts it all together.

[ColtsLegacy]

Missing all but 1 game in your 2nd year due to a hip injury then missing 3 games & leaving 3 games due to injury this past season then admitting in the offseason he was 70% throughout the season ain't an accident my friend. Up to this point Coby has proven he's more durable than Dwayne & while I do believe he will be healthy & have a really good year, he still has to prove it.

But like I said, Coby is the better receiver than Dwayne. He can stretch the field much better than Dwayne can & the week 11 game vs NE gave us a glimpse of what he can turn into if/when he puts it all together.

Unless Dwayne Allen injured himself on purpose, then they were accidents. But that's kind of besides the point I was trying to make.

As for the bolded, it was false when you said it before and it remains false. There's this stigma that because Allen is the better blocker he's the blocking TE and therefore not as good of a receiver. It's false.

Allen is much faster on the field than you credit him and in traffic he is much more reliable than Fleener. I said it before, if Allen were to play Fleener's role, he'd play it better than Fleener.

[JH8788]

Unless Dwayne Allen injured himself on purpose, then they were accidents. But that's kind of besides the point I was trying to make.

As for the bolded, it was false when you said it before and it remains false. There's this stigma that because Allen is the better blocker he's the blocking TE and therefore not as good of a receiver. It's false.

Allen is much faster on the field than you credit him and in traffic he is much more reliable than Fleener. I said it before, if Allen were to play Fleener's role, he'd play it better than Fleener.

Who said Allen wasn't a good receiver cause I sure as hell didn't. Anybody with half a brain knows he on the short list in terms of best all around TEs in football & anybody who says otherwise doesn't watch the Colts so the ppl who do say that are irrelevant. And I never said he was slow neither, just that he's not as good stretching the field as Fleener. Dwayne didn't injure himself on purpose, but as of right this second, it's a known fact that Coby has been more durable the past 2 seasons so for you to say he'd play Coby's role better is kinda ridiculous.

 

Bottom line is I don't understand why some Colts fans disrespect Fleener like he doesn't mean anything to our offense & Allen is light years better than him. Yes Fleener isn't the all around TE that Allen is & yes he does have frustrating drops, but Allen has had his drop problems as well yet ppl gloss over that. Let Fleener have 3 drops in a game like Allen did vs Dallas. This forum would explode. Dallas Clark wasn't an all around TE. Was he a scrub? Antonio Gates isn't an all around TE & he's probably headed to the HOF. Julius Thomas. Jimmy Graham. Are they scrubs? There's really only a select few TEs in today's game that you can legitimately say they excel as pass catchers & blockers, & that's Allen, Gronk, Witten, & Miller.

[ColtsLegacy]

Who said Allen wasn't a good receiver cause I sure as hell didn't. Anybody with half a brain knows he on the short list in terms of best all around TEs in football & anybody who says otherwise doesn't watch the Colts so the ppl who do say that are irrelevant. And I never said he was slow neither, just that he's not as good stretching the field as Fleener. Dwayne didn't injure himself on purpose, but as of right this second, it's a known fact that Coby has been more durable the past 2 seasons so for you to say he'd play Coby's role better is kinda ridiculous.

Bottom line is I don't understand why some Colts fans disrespect Fleener like he doesn't mean anything to our offense & Allen is light years better than him. Yes Fleener isn't the all around TE that Allen is & yes he does have frustrating drops, but Allen has had his drop problems as well yet ppl gloss over that. Let Fleener have 3 drops in a game like Allen did vs Dallas. This forum would explode. Dallas Clark wasn't an all around TE. Was he a scrub? Antonio Gates isn't an all around TE & he's probably headed to the HOF. Julius Thomas. Jimmy Graham. Are they scrubs? There's really only a select few TEs in today's game that you can legitimately say they excel as pass catchers & blockers, & that's Allen, Gronk, Witten, & Miller.

I simply reject the seemingly common opinion that Fleener is the better receiver than Allen. If it weren't for Allen's injuries, there wouldn't even be a debate.

I'm not trying to devalue Fleener. I like Fleener. He and Allen make a great combo. I hope we can keep them both. But, I still think Allen is better in just about every aspect of the position. As you said, Allen's one of the best, and only, all around TEs.

And, yes, Dwayne Allen had 2 or 3 drops in the worst game of his career. Outside of that game, drops have never been an issue. He would make the difficult catch way more than he'd drop an easy one. In fact, he had one of the lowest drop percentages among TEs his rookie season.

[JH8788]

I simply reject the seemingly common opinion that Fleener is the better receiver than Allen. If it weren't for Allen's injuries, there wouldn't even be a debate.

I'm not trying to devalue Fleener. I like Fleener. He and Allen make a great combo. I hope we can keep them both. But, I still think Allen is better in just about every aspect of the position. As you said, Allen's one of the best, and only, all around TEs.

We've known all along since their rookie year that Allen is the better all around TE. Quite honestly, he's the last of a dying breed. I know you never said Fleener was a scrub, I'm just saying I get annoyed at the Colts fans who act as if he doesn't mean anything to our offense just because he's not a good blocker & has some *ic drops yet they gloss over the fact they both had about the same amount of drops last year & like I mentioned before, Allen had 3 drops vs Dallas put ppl act like that never happened while still killing Fleener over the Redskins drop.

 

I'm right there with you. I want to keep them both since they do compliment each other well & help this offense a ton, but I still believe Fleener is the better receiver & he has the games to prove it but we can agree to disagree there. I just hope there's multiple games this season & hopefully beyond where both of them take over games & we get to see how helpless opposing defenses are cause they have no answer for them.

Edited July 30, 2015 by JH8788

[ColtsLegacy]

We've known all along since their rookie year that Allen is the better all around TE. Quite honestly, he's the last of a dying breed. I know you never said Fleener was a scrub, I'm just saying I get annoyed at the Colts fans who act as if he doesn't mean anything to our offense just because he's not a good blocker & has some *ic drops yet they gloss over the fact they both had about the same amount of drops last year & like I mentioned before, Allen had 3 drops vs Dallas put ppl act like that never happened while still killing Fleener over the Redskins drop.

I'm right there with you. I want to keep them both since they do compliment each other well & help this offense a ton, but I still believe Fleener is the better receiver & he has the games to prove it but we can agree to disagree there. I just hope there's multiple games this season & hopefully beyond where both of them take over games & we get to see how helpless opposing defenses are cause they have no answer for them.

Fair enough. My biggest gripe concerning Fleener and drops weren't necessarily the statistical drops but the fact that he had a very hard time hauling in balls when he was in traffic or tight coverage. These wouldn't be statistical drops but they're still drops in my book and they're passes that DA rarely has a problem corralling. Now, admittedly, Fleener was better this past season, he's improved every season, but the inconsistency was still there.

Basically, if we need a guy to make a game winning catch, I trust DA to make it much more than I trust Fleener.

[JH8788]

Fair enough. My biggest gripe concerning Fleener and drops weren't necessarily the statistical drops but the fact that he had a very hard time hauling in balls when he was in traffic or tight coverage. These wouldn't be statistical drops but they're still drops in my book and they're passes that DA rarely has a problem corralling. Now, admittedly, Fleener was better this past season, he's improved every season, but the inconsistency was still there.

Basically, if we need a guy to make a game winning catch, I trust DA to make it much more than I trust Fleener.

True. for example, he had 144 yds vs NE only to come back the following week vs the Jags & have only 28 yds. I also feel at times he doesn't always play up to his 6'6 frame like he should. No team has an answer for him & he should annually have a minimum of 10 TDs since he should easily be able to win jump balls in the red zone no problem.

 

It may sound like a cliché answer, but I believe we can go to them both in the clutch & they'll deliver the goods.

[ColtsLegacy]

True. for example, he had 144 yds vs NE only to come back the following week vs the Jags & have only 28 yds. I also feel at times he doesn't always play up to his 6'6 frame like he should. No team has an answer for him & he should annually have a minimum of 10 TDs since he should easily be able to win jump balls in the red zone no problem.

It may sound like a cliché answer, but I believe we can go to them both in the clutch & they'll deliver the goods.

Yeah, I'd love to see Fleener use his frame more to his advantage.

[Chucklez]

You just basically reiterated what I just said about Moncrief, Dorsett, & Carter. Nobody's disputing the array of talent we have for pass catchers, the issue started when you said T.Y. was expendable because we have other options to go to & like you said, he's our best playmaker so let me ask you this question. Do you think we could win it all this year w/o him? Cause I sure as hell don't.

I do think we could win it all without TY this year, but that isnt a knock on TY AT ALL...... It is more a testament to the offensive firepower we have AS WELL AS Andrew Luck under center.... If you took Andrew Luck out of this team and had someone like Tannehill under center, people would still say that is a hell of a good offense. But when you have all that firepower AND #12, then yes, even without TY, I think we could win it all this year.

 

(I will reiterate that TY is my favorite player and is our best WR, but we could still do it without him)...

[Everyone]

We've known all along since their rookie year that Allen is the better all around TE. Quite honestly, he's the last of a dying breed. I know you never said Fleener was a scrub, I'm just saying I get annoyed at the Colts fans who act as if he doesn't mean anything to our offense just because he's not a good blocker & has some *ic drops yet they gloss over the fact they both had about the same amount of drops last year & like I mentioned before, Allen had 3 drops vs Dallas put ppl act like that never happened while still killing Fleener over the Redskins drop.

 

I'm right there with you. I want to keep them both since they do compliment each other well & help this offense a ton, but I still believe Fleener is the better receiver & he has the games to prove it but we can agree to disagree there. I just hope there's multiple games this season & hopefully beyond where both of them take over games & we get to see how helpless opposing defenses are cause they have no answer for them.

I never said Fleener wasn't valuable to the offense, I just stated the fact that Allen is the better TE.

[Grigs build the lines plz.]

I do think we could win it all without TY this year, but that isnt a knock on TY AT ALL...... It is more a testament to the offensive firepower we have AS WELL AS Andrew Luck under center.... If you took Andrew Luck out of this team and had someone like Tannehill under center, people would still say that is a hell of a good offense. But when you have all that firepower AND #12, then yes, even without TY, I think we could win it all this year.

 

(I will reiterate that TY is my favorite player and is our best WR, but we could still do it without him)...

Agreed. Give me a strong running attack along with the receivers we have on the roster, and TY would 

not be that big of a loss. The Colt's brass loves the passing game so TY is a lock, and  continue to hope for the 

best when it comes to controlling the lines on both sides of the ball.

[JH8788]

I never said Fleener wasn't valuable to the offense, I just stated the fact that Allen is the better TE.

I never said you did. Just stating the fact that there's some Colts fans who disrespect Fleener to build up Allen.

[JH8788]

I do think we could win it all without TY this year, but that isnt a knock on TY AT ALL...... It is more a testament to the offensive firepower we have AS WELL AS Andrew Luck under center.... If you took Andrew Luck out of this team and had someone like Tannehill under center, people would still say that is a hell of a good offense. But when you have all that firepower AND #12, then yes, even without TY, I think we could win it all this year.

 

(I will reiterate that TY is my favorite player and is our best WR, but we could still do it without him)...

I have to disagree with you on that even with the guys we now have around him. The fear he puts into opposing defenses is what will open up things for everybody else. He's the 1 guy who can take over games week in & week out. Could we go on a deep playoff run w/o him? Sure we could. Win the whole thing? Absolutely not.

[Chucklez]

I have to disagree with you on that even with the guys we now have around him. The fear he puts into opposing defenses is what will open up things for everybody else. He's the 1 guy who can take over games week in & week out. Could we go on a deep playoff run w/o him? Sure we could. Win the whole thing? Absolutely not.

Not actually the case, TY can disappear sometimes.

And I have faith in Dorsett's ability to do a very similar job to TY. Maybe not to the same extent yet, but certainly enough of an element to keep D's honest and open up the shorter routes for AJ, the TE's, RB dump offs... Even Moncrief has the ability to stretch the field. TY is certainly the best at it, but we have other options.

[JH8788]

Not actually the case, TY can disappear sometimes.

And I have faith in Dorsett's ability to do a very similar job to TY. Maybe not to the same extent yet, but certainly enough of an element to keep D's honest and open up the shorter routes for AJ, the TE's, RB dump offs... Even Moncrief has the ability to stretch the field. TY is certainly the best at it, but we have other options.

Only way he disappears is if he's doubled. 1 on 1 I'll take T.Y. over any CB in football not named Revis, Vontae, Sherman, & possibly Chris Harris. Yes Donte & Phil got wheels, but they haven't proven it over multiple seasons like T.Y. has done.