Deflategate merge -- pending appeal results

[NewColtsFan]

The entire Wells Report is an example of what COULD have happened...yet you are all treating it as saying it DID happen.

 

Again...as long as another explanation is at all possible, that shows that nothing was proven. Like you said...COULD happen and DID happen are NOT the same thing...but somehow you all seem to know?

 

 

The OFFICIAL NFL position on investigation is "preponderance of evidence"....  it's in the NFL by-laws, voted in by the owners.

 

So,  "more likely than not" is the standard.    THAT'S the level of proof.    51 percent to 49.  Maybe even 50.1 to 49.9.

And what pushes this into that area is the way New England FAILED TO COOPERATE.    In the NFL's eyes,  THAT'S what makes the Pats guilty.

[Bad Morty]

Lol...peope are going to absolutely lose their minds if somehow Brady ends up not being suspended, aren't they?

[Gramz]

Lol...peope are going to absolutely lose their minds if somehow Brady ends up not being suspended, aren't they?

. Vice versa too.

Believe it or not, I really couldn't give a %, but sometimes I just can't help but point out the obvious and question some of the reasoning, or lack there of.

[Bad Morty]

. Vice versa too.

Believe it or not, I really couldn't give a %, but sometimes I just can't help but point out the obvious and question some of the reasoning, or lack there of.

nah...I think most of us Pats fans are already conditioned to the idea that he's going to miss 4 games, so anything less than that is a 'win' in our eyes.

[Lawrence Owen]

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=13089148

 

Pretty good synopsis here form Sal Pal on how Brady and his team will approach this appeal. They will attack the Wells report AND also the discipline handed out given the NFL rules book says the fine is but not limited to $25 k for a TEAM. The league will be fining Brady upwards of $1.8 mil if he misses 4 games as that is his salary.

 

Also of note, Brady is seeking complete exoneration here not a reduction. If he does not get it from the league, court is likely.

Why do Pats fans keep bringing up the 25k fine?  That is listed as the BARE MINIMUM.  NOT the quota. 

[Bad Morty]

Why do Pats fans keep bringing up the 25k fine?  That is listed as the BARE MINIMUM.  NOT the quota. 

 

Because given that nearly $3M in fines has been handed out ($1M to Kraft, $1.8M to Brady for 4 missed games), the context of $25K is pretty relevant. They handed out 120 times the minimum fine.

[Shane Bond]

That typically happens when Colts fans start losing the argument I've found.

It typically happens when comic relief turns into insanity.

 

You want to talk about argument?. Like how you were "guessing" why those employees were suspended?.

[amfootball]

Why do Pats fans keep bringing up the 25k fine?  That is listed as the BARE MINIMUM.  NOT the quota. 

I am not mentioning it. Sal mentioned it as one of the four points Brady's legal team is using in his defense to get the suspension over turned. The logic is quite simple. The rules book says the fine is not limited to $25 k for the TEAM. Never has a player ever been fined or disciplined in the history of the league for ball tampering. The CBA is clear that the league has to rule fairly and consistently with its discipline toward players. So you can see how this would be a big point in the appeal to help Brady's case.

[Yehoodi]

Why do Pats fans keep bringing up the 25k fine?  That is listed as the BARE MINIMUM.  NOT the quota. 

 

correction, the bare minimum is a warning, we saw that with the Vikings game.

[Lawrence Owen]

But the 1 mil fine is on Kraft (I assume and so do most other) over Conduct detrimental to the league as per previous fines to other teams.  And Brady's suspension is not just for the involvement of ball tampering either.   Many things were put into the accumulaton of the fines. 

1: Ball tampering

2:Conduct detrimental

3: Not fully co-operating with investigation

4: Lying to NFL, Media, NFL fans.

At least that is how most of the world views the reasoning for the punishments from what i see in blogs, articles, and news reports that emerge from anywhere but NE.

[amfootball]

But the 1 mil fine is on Kraft (I assume and so do most other) over Conduct detrimental to the league as per previous fines to other teams.  And Brady's suspension is not just for the involvement of ball tampering either.   Many things were put into the accumulaton of the fines. 

1: Ball tampering

2:Conduct detrimental

3: Not fully co-operating with investigation

4: Lying to NFL, Media, NFL fans.

At least that is how most of the world views the reasoning for the punishments from what i see in blogs, articles, and news reports that emerge from anywhere but NE.

Vincent's letter made it clear that Brady was being suspended for ball tampering and thereby violating the integrity of the game and for non cooperation. Nowhere was there mention of lying or anything like that. And again the league has never punished a player by suspension for non-cooperation  in the history of the league. See Brett Favre sexual harassment case where he got a $50 k fine for not cooperating.

[Lawrence Owen]

Vincent's letter made it clear that Brady was being suspended for ball tampering and thereby violating the integrity of the game. Nowhere in the letter was there any reference to his non-cooperation (Wells actually said he and the team cooperated substantially in the report) as the reason for any part of the suspension or anything about him lying, etc.

granted, that is Vincent's reasons were.  But Goodell has the final say in the decision.  The letter was a recommendation.  Goodell handed down the actual punishments, and his reasons may have differed.

[Gramz]

Like it or not, right or wrong, Brady has already been tried and convicted by the general public.

Hopefully the truth will come out in the appeals, or court, God forbid it goes to that extent. In the end, no matter what happens from here on out, his overall image has been tarnished. It is what it is.

[amfootball]

granted, that is Vincent's reasons were.  But Goodell has the final say in the decision.  The letter was a recommendation.  Goodell handed down the actual punishments, and his reasons may have differed.

No. The punishment was issued by Vincent which is another contention that Brady's team has the CBA specifically says the commish has to hand down a punishment in cases of integrity of the game but Goodell specifically had Vincent do it so he could then preside over the appeal.  As I have said before, if this gets to court Brady's team is going to have a field day with the league and its handling before it even begins to tear into the pile of poop that is the Wells report ...

[pgt_rob]

The entire Wells Report is an example of what COULD have happened...yet you are all treating it as saying it DID happen.

 

  The report was about something that never happened? Like it's a fictional story? Come on now.

 

Here's the Patriots winning numbers......... Last I checked, this is nonfiction.

[OffensivelyPC]

Possible =/= Probable.  Just ask Aaron Hernandez.

[Lawrence Owen]

No. The punishment was issued by Vincent which is another contention that Brady's team has the CBA specifically says the commish has to hand down a punishment in cases of integrity of the game but Goodell specifically had Vincent do it so he could then preside over the appeal.  As I have said before, if this gets to court Brady's team is going to have a field day with the league and its handling before it even begins to tear into the pile of poop that is the Wells report ...

This is where Pats fans are misinformed..Goodel had the Final word on the punishment.  He delegated the job of coming up this the proposed punishment, but Goodel was the one whom decided to go with it after thoroughly perusing the contents.  He even made a statement explaining this after Kraft accused him of altering the NFLPA.

 

The New England Patriots were notified today of the following discipline that has been imposed for violations of the NFL Policy on Integrity of the Game and Enforcement of Competitive Rules relating to the use of under-inflated footballs in the AFC Championship Game of this past season:

For the violation of the playing rules and the failure to cooperate in the subsequent investigation, theNew England Patriots are fined $1 million and will forfeit the club's first-round selection in the 2016 NFL Draft and the club's fourth-round selection in the 2017 NFL Draft. If the Patriots have more than one selection in either of these rounds, the earlier selection shall be forfeited. The club may not trade or otherwise encumber these selections.

Patriots owner Robert Kraft advised Commissioner Roger Goodell last week that Patriots employees John Jastremski and James McNally have been indefinitely suspended without pay by the club, effective on May 6th. Neither of these individuals may be reinstated without the prior approval of NFL Executive Vice President of Football Operations Troy Vincent. If they are reinstated by the Patriots, Jastremski is prohibited from having any role in the preparation, supervision, or handling of footballs to be used in NFL games during the 2015 season. McNally is barred from serving as a locker room attendant for the game officials, or having any involvement with the preparation, supervision, or handling of footballs or any other equipment on game day.

Quarterback Tom Brady will be suspended without pay for the first four games of the 2015 regular season for conduct detrimental to the integrity of the NFL. Brady may participate in all off-season, training camp and pre-season activities, including pre-season games.

"We reached these decisions after extensive discussion with Troy Vincent and many others," Commissioner Goodell said. "We relied on the critical importance of protecting the integrity of the game and the thoroughness and independence of the Wells report."

[amfootball]

This is where Pats fans are misinformed..Goodel had the Final word on the punishment.  He delegated the job of coming up this the proposed punishment, but Goodel was the one whom decided to go with it after thoroughly perusing the contents.  He even made a statement explaining this after Kraft accused him of altering the NFLPA.

 

The New England Patriots were notified today of the following discipline that has been imposed for violations of the NFL Policy on Integrity of the Game and Enforcement of Competitive Rules relating to the use of under-inflated footballs in the AFC Championship Game of this past season:

For the violation of the playing rules and the failure to cooperate in the subsequent investigation, theNew England Patriots are fined $1 million and will forfeit the club's first-round selection in the 2016 NFL Draft and the club's fourth-round selection in the 2017 NFL Draft. If the Patriots have more than one selection in either of these rounds, the earlier selection shall be forfeited. The club may not trade or otherwise encumber these selections.

Patriots owner Robert Kraft advised Commissioner Roger Goodell last week that Patriots employees John Jastremski and James McNally have been indefinitely suspended without pay by the club, effective on May 6th. Neither of these individuals may be reinstated without the prior approval of NFL Executive Vice President of Football Operations Troy Vincent. If they are reinstated by the Patriots, Jastremski is prohibited from having any role in the preparation, supervision, or handling of footballs to be used in NFL games during the 2015 season. McNally is barred from serving as a locker room attendant for the game officials, or having any involvement with the preparation, supervision, or handling of footballs or any other equipment on game day.

Quarterback Tom Brady will be suspended without pay for the first four games of the 2015 regular season for conduct detrimental to the integrity of the NFL. Brady may participate in all off-season, training camp and pre-season activities, including pre-season games.

"We reached these decisions after extensive discussion with Troy Vincent and many others," Commissioner Goodell said. "We relied on the critical importance of protecting the integrity of the game and the thoroughness and independence of the Wells report."

That is the team letter. The letter sent to Brady came from Vincent, http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/12873455/troy-vincent-letter-tom-brady

[Bad Morty]

  The report was about something that never happened? Like it's a fictional story? Come on now.

 

Here's the Patriots winning numbers......... Last I checked, this is nonfiction.

Those numbers on the right, as measured using the gauge Walt Anderson remembers using, don't indicate anything illegal occurred at all. The ones on the left, using the other gauge, show 3 balls that are over the expected result of natural inflation, 3 more that are within 0.2 PSI of that, 3 that are within around 0.3PSI, and 2 that are within 0.5PSI

 

I was led to believe that all the balls were 2ilbs too low and that they were so soft that a Linebacker could tell right away that they were all deflated?

[Lawrence Owen]

Even that letter explains it was also due to not co-operating:

 

With respect to your particular involvement, the report established that there is substantial and credible evidence to conclude you were at least generally aware of the actions of the Patriots' employees involved in the deflation of the footballs and that it was unlikely that their actions were done without your knowledge. Moreover, the report documents your failure to cooperate fully and candidly with the investigation, including by refusing to produce any relevant electronic evidence (emails, texts, etc.) despite being offered extraordinary safeguards by the investigators to protect unrelated personal information, and by providing testimony that the report concludes was not plausible and contradicted by other evidence.

[Lawrence Owen]

You are contradicting yourself here...That report specifically says: failure to cooperate, and Lying....

[amfootball]

Even that letter explains it was also due to not co-operating:

 

With respect to your particular involvement, the report established that there is substantial and credible evidence to conclude you were at least generally aware of the actions of the Patriots' employees involved in the deflation of the footballs and that it was unlikely that their actions were done without your knowledge. Moreover, the report documents your failure to cooperate fully and candidly with the investigation, including by refusing to produce any relevant electronic evidence (emails, texts, etc.) despite being offered extraordinary safeguards by the investigators to protect unrelated personal information, and by providing testimony that the report concludes was not plausible and contradicted by other evidence.

Yes, I had corrected my previous post on this. It is in part for non-cooperating. But as I said, the league has never suspended a player for non-coop. Brett Favre who did not hand over his phone in the sexual harassment case got a $50 k fine. So again, Brady's team is going to hammer home that the league's punishment is not fair or consistent which is in violation of the CBA.

[Yehoodi]

No. All of those plays are not problems as they enhance the game. For example, the WC formation merely shifts eligible players around, or the play action fakes the ball between players who are already eligible. They don't make an eligible player ineligible, or the other way around, 2 seconds before a snap..

They also agree that offenses surprising defenses over who is eligible is a problem because it would make every game 117-110. So they all approve of how rules are written to prevent that.

 

Every formation enhances the game, please.  The WC changes the dynamic of the offense and more often than not different defense personnel need to be in the game depending if you have a RB or QB taking the snaps, but if both are on the field, the D does not have the opportunity to substitute when the WC goes between the QB and RB under center, but not one complains.  The fins were the bee knees with the WC until, by attrition if you will, the pats later in that year showed ways how to defend the WC and now its simply another option in an offensive attack as opposed to being something that will changed the world.

 

Also, as to the WC, the Fins broke out the WC in week 3 and waited to break it out against us for maximum impact.  We lost that game and then the eventual tiebreaker to them and missed the playoffs.  So please spare me the tears about teams pulling new things out at keys times to gain the initial surprise of the formations and get some "cheap" yards which in part might help win a game.  We lost a game due to the initiation of the WC and furthermore missed the playoffs.  As such, I have zero sympathy if we gain from the initial surprise of a formation and advance in the playoffs.    Its called football, we had the Edelman pass play on the books for two years and practice it weekly and decided to pull it out at the right time.  Sometimes you have things in your pocket that are basically a one shot wonder and you save it till you really need it.

 

As for formations and "spirit" of the rules, for decades we have seen the jumbo sets where we have an extra lineman come in and lineup outside the tackle box, in the dreaded other persons zone, and be an ineligible player and just block, even though he is in the "eligible guys area" outside of the tackle box.  But yet the D does not get confused thinking he will go out for a pass.  

 

Then we have seen countless times that in that same formation that extra tackle declares himself eligible after the team breaks the huddle and some how the D is not confused and has plenty of time to figure was is going on.  (and no its not 2 seconds, but plenty of time for the D to read it and adjust).  But never a complaint have we seen, have we?

 

All the pats simply did was reverse the action of above.  In the above case you have fielded 6 ineligible players with one declaring himself eligible (which is not confusing as evident but the countless number of times its been run) and the pats merely fielded 6 eligible players with one declaring himself ineligible.  So if the collective brains of a defense can figure one change then can figure out how to handle another one change.   But some teams and fans are lazier than others.

 

It also presented an interesting dynamic where you only have 4 lineman and one eligible declaring himself ineligible effectively taking himself out of the play, the down side to the formation.   There are ways exploit this formation contrary to your thoughts.  Indeed in the very next game, the colts ran a delay stunt blitz with a linebacker were there was no tackle and the guard and to decide between two on rushing defenders, he chose the outside rushing lineman and the linebacker then cut underneath and had a clean sack on Brady for a loss.  Another way to exploit it (my idea) is to have a safety run a delayed blitz in the tackle whole vacated by the tide end who lines up at that spot. 

 

So there are ways to skin this cat of a formation but the NFL was too lazy to play an intelligent arms race with the Pats.

 

And again, all tricky, reverses, play action, WC, this formation and so on, will have initial extra success but by attrition and time teams, like the colts in the AFCCG, will figure out ways to curtail the formation and they just become another tool in the offense arsenal.     

[Lawrence Owen]

Yes, I had corrected my previous post on this. It is in part for non-cooperating. But as I said, the league has never suspended a player for non-coop. Brett Favre who did not hand over his phone in the sexual harassment case got a $50 k fine. So again, Brady's team is going to hammer home that the league's punishment is not fair or consistent which is in violation of the CBA.

But Brady's punishment was for Multiple acts...not just 1.  They were compounded.  Which is why he got served a suspension.

[Gramz]

Yes, I had corrected my previous post on this. It is in part for non-cooperating. But as I said, the league has never suspended a player for non-coop. Brett Favre who did not hand over his phone in the sexual harassment case got a $50 k fine. So again, Brady's team is going to hammer home that the league's punishment is not fair or consistent which is in violation of the CBA.

Perhaps, because in the past, players have cooperated? Just a thought.

[amfootball]

But Brady's punishment was for Multiple acts...not just 1.  They were compounded.  Which is why he got served a suspension.

That could be true but again the acts we are talking about are unproven ball deflation in which the Wells report has zero evidence on his involvement and has never been punished by player suspension. And the second is him not handing over info from his private phone. If the league feels that somehow warrants 4 games then so be it but I think Brady's team has a strong case about the punishment not being fair or consistent. We will see ...

[amfootball]

Perhaps, because in the past, players have cooperated? Just a thought.

Not true. Favre did not cooperate and got a $50k fine. And his phone was relevant in a criminal offense.

[dynasty13]

  The report was about something that never happened? Like it's a fictional story? Come on now.

 

Here's the Patriots winning numbers......... Last I checked, this is nonfiction.

It reported that something happened, the problem is that nobody seems to know exactly what happened.

 

What we know is that there were two gauges used at different times...their readings had a difference of approximately .4 PSI.

 

The key is in the gauge used. If before the game New England's balls were inflated to a desired PSI of 12.5 but Walt Anderson used the higher reading gauge, then the balls actually would have been inflated to 12.1 PSI even though the higher gauge read 12.5 PSI.

 

If before the game the Colts balls were inflated to a desired PSI of 13.0 but Walt Anderson used the lower reading gauge, then the balls actually would have been inflated to 13.4 PSI even though the lower gauge read 13.0 PSI. Follow so far?

 

Walt Anderson could not recall which gauge was used when he measured each team's footballs before the game, so that is scenario is entirely plausible.

 

When 4 of the Colts balls were measured at halftime, they had lost between .05 PSI and .85 PSI...which averages out to .56 of PSI lost. When the Patriots balls were measured at halftime, they had lost between .25 PSI and 1.6 PSI...but that is over the span of 11 balls. What if the 4 Colts balls that were measure just happened to be 4 that were on the lower amount of PSI loss? If we take the measurements of 4 of the lower measured balls for the Patriots, do you know what that averages out to? 

 

.57 PSI lost

 

The Colts balls average loss was .56 PSI...and since there is no way to know what the remainder of the Colts balls would have measured had they not run out of time, you simply cant discount the possibility that the 4 they happened to measure could have been on the lower end of PSI loss.

[pgt_rob]

Those numbers on the right, as measured using the gauge Walt Anderson remembers using, don't indicate anything illegal occurred at all. The ones on the left, using the other gauge, show 3 balls that are over the expected result of natural inflation, 3 more that are within 0.2 PSI of that, 3 that are within around 0.3PSI, and 2 that are within 0.5PSI

 

I was led to believe that all the balls were 2ilbs too low and that they were so soft that a Linebacker could tell right away that they were all deflated?

 

The legal pressure is between 12.5-13.5 psi. While Kraft suspended the 2 ball boys without pay. Sorry but you can try all you want. These punishments are going to stick.

[Yehoodi]

Like it or not, right or wrong, Brady has already been tried and convicted by the general public.

Hopefully the truth will come out in the appeals, or court, God forbid it goes to that extent. In the end, no matter what happens from here on out, his overall image has been tarnished. It is what it is.

 

Yah, time will tell.  There are a lot of loose ends on each side of the story, it would be nice to get a more complete picture of the whole thing.  A small part of me wants to see this go to court so as to get a clearer picture of these loose ends.  I guess we will have to wait and see how things play out.

[Bad Morty]

The legal pressure is between 12.5-13.5 psi. While Kraft suspended the 2 ball boys without pay. Sorry but you can try all you want. These punishments are going to stick.

 

you need to read the report. The balls should have read 11.3 or thereabouts based on the conditions per the Wells report. 3 were over that, 6 were within 0.3 of that, and the other 2 were within 0.5. And that's on the gauge that Wells decided was the correct gauge...not the one that Walt Anderson said he used. On that gauge, the balls all checked out ok.

[pgt_rob]

 

It reported that something happened, the problem is that nobody seems to know exactly what happened.

 

This is all I read before I gave up reading the rest. This statement is literally just....... a pile of crap. You see snow on the ground in the morning but didn't actually see it fall, you assume that nobody seems to know exactly WHAT happened? That is hilarious. Just like when Kraft suspended the ball boys without pay. The deflator text messages. The bathroom incident. What more do you need to piece this stupid stuff together?

[pgt_rob]

you need to read the report. The balls should have read 11.3 or thereabouts based on the conditions per the Wells report. 3 were over that, 6 were within 0.3 of that, and the other 2 were within 0.5. And that's on the gauge that Wells decided was the correct gauge...not the one that Walt Anderson said he used. On that gauge, the balls all checked out ok.

 

Is that before or after a ball boy would sneak to let air out of them?

[Lawrence Owen]

Not true. Favre did not cooperate and got a $50k fine. And his phone was relevant in a criminal offense.

But, that criminal case had nothing to do with the integrity of the game between the lines of the field either. And the NFL has said multiple times they find that type of occurrence dealing with how  the game is played MUCH more important to the NFL than criminal cases outside those lines. 

[dynasty13]

This is all I read before I gave up reading the rest. This statement is literally just....... a pile of crap. You see snow on the ground in the morning but didn't actually see it fall, you assume that nobody seems to know exactly WHAT happened? That is hilarious. Just like when Kraft suspended the ball boys without pay. The deflator text messages. The bathroom incident. What more do you need to piece this stupid stuff together?

 

I love when people respond to posts without reading the entirety of the message they want to criticize...

[amfootball]

But, that criminal case had nothing to do with the integrity of the game between the lines of the field either. And the NFL has said multiple times they find that type of occurrence dealing with how  the game is played MUCH more important to the NFL than criminal cases outside those lines. 

Yes it only had to with sexual harassment, a criminal offense.  I mean come on. We are talking unproven ball deflation here not scoreboard fixing. If the NFL uses that as its reason then I will be even more confident of Brady's victory

[amfootball]

Yah, time will tell.  There are a lot of loose ends on each side of the story, it would be nice to get a more complete picture of the whole thing.  A small part of me wants to see this go to court so as to get a clearer picture of these loose ends.  I guess we will have to wait and see how things play out.

I agree. Brady's overall rep is still a big TBD. We will see how this all shakes out.

[dw49]

Not true. Favre did not cooperate and got a $50k fine. And his phone was relevant in a criminal offense.

 

 

Apples and Oranges

[Lawrence Owen]

Yes it only had to with sexual harassment, a criminal offense.  I mean come on. We are talking unproven ball deflation here not scoreboard fixing. If the NFL uses that as its reason then I will be even more confident of Brady's victory

the reason Criminal cases are dealt with differently is because the U.S. Judicial system hands out the real punishment.  The Judicial system does not hand out punishments on NFL cases that involve how the game is played (unless someone murders another player on the field during a game...>.<) So the NFL has to be MORE strict with those type of offenses because they are the only ones handing out any punishment for them.

[Gramz]

Apples and Oranges

Yep. And when no one is buying what you're selling, it might give one the idea of moving on to another fruit stand.